First adventure, already off the rails. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Hollysword

2016-10-16, 06:25 AM

dropbear8mybaby

2016-10-16, 06:33 AM

You reckon that's bad? My group is on a specific route of island hopping using Moonwells where they only have one Moon Seed (only particular worshipers of the Earthmother can actually use the Moonwells as portals but the Moon Seed gives someone that ability) and are trapped on an island full of fomorians due to having pissed off Umberlee (so can't travel by water without being attacked).

And the person carrying the Moon Seed? Yeah, he just got turned to stone.

Arkhios

2016-10-16, 06:51 AM

I concluded the first adventure with my party. They were all happy to get a stack of silver coins and exp to level to 2... but I wasn't expecting a clever use of Thunderwave to knock the villain off the escape rope. Now they have her 'hostage' (well, it's the barbarian that wants to keep her) when I had more plans for her in future adventures.

Which option would be best at this stage?

Have her escape one night/while they're adventuring
Make a mini-adventure of her mooks trying to save her
Make a new villain

Was her name and characteristics important? If not, make a new character. Maybe she was only a puppet and the real bad guy (gal?) is still out there, scheming.

If her name and characteristics had major impact on the story, mini-adventure of her mooks trying to save her might be more fun than that she would just "walk away", because that smells like a BBEG on a railroad (to me at least).

Hollysword

2016-10-16, 07:01 AM

Was her name and characteristics important? If not, make a new character. Maybe she was only a puppet and the real bad guy (gal?) is still out there, scheming.

If her name and characteristics had major impact on the story, mini-adventure of her mooks trying to save her might be more fun than that she would just "walk away", because that smells like a BBEG on a railroad (to me at least).

For now, no. She's just a small villain who just wanted personal wealth. At this stage she's not that important. But I have plans that in the future, she's destined to join a party of villains who will do... something (to be decided once I see where the party is going).

So yeah. Right now, she's not that important. In the future, she'll be a major impact.

Sir cryosin

2016-10-16, 07:25 AM

This is a good opportunity for the bad guy to watch and learn how the pc think and act get info on them find out weakness and what they care about. Then when she's thinks she has enough. She just slips away. You also have great rp resource here maybe she try to bride one of or all pcs. Have her spear some elaborate story about having her ten children because her deadbeat baby daddy ran out on her or she has a sick little brother sister. Just a sappy store should work. Have her curse them and have small little things happen to the pc demonstrating that she might have cursed them. Then she makes another threat that if they don't release her the curse will get stronger and more worse. Ect....

Wolfkingleo

2016-10-16, 07:27 AM

For now, no. She's just a small villain who just wanted personal wealth. At this stage she's not that important. But I have plans that in the future, she's destined to join a party of villains who will do... something (to be decided once I see where the party is going).

So yeah. Right now, she's not that important. In the future, she'll be a major impact.

When I was playing D&D 3.5 in a homebrew campaign we stumbled in something like this. There was an antagonist who were a "turncoat" on my party and, after creating a real ruckus during 3 sessions, where defeated by my character and the DM tried to make her run away...except that I was equipped with sleeping arrows, and that I shot her...and that I scored a critical...and she failed the test and fell asleep....and that we captured her...and.....the DM metagamed begging us to not kill her (because reasons) and I felt that was outrageous from his part...and soon he FIATed her out of her magical trap, and that felt patetically desperate and childish. (this is just something that I remember that resemble, even if a little, what you post OP, please take no offense here)

Let me give you an advice (and personal opinion) regarding "rails",assuming that you don't have a good concept/plot to make the said character to run away from your party, do not use it unless pointing the party to progress the story when they look stuck somewhere. I'm saying this because being on a D&D table is about building up a story together and if you start to rail it, players might felt cheated and that their actions will not have any real impact on the story.

That does not mean that you should not use your power as DM to make things right when they get out of hand, but also should remember that this is your group's tale, not your own story. If the character you are trying to save have something important later on, than try to talk (in-game) it's way out, otherwise be ready to accept her fate should the party decide to murder the character or whatever...

Remember to use improvisation since the players have a different mindset than yours and that you are not reading and writing a book, but telling a good story together with your friends.

Cheers

Hollysword

2016-10-16, 07:40 AM

This NPC is too proud to make up sob stories, but she's also patient enough to wait for an escape opening. Other than that, she's pretty lazy and indifferent to everything, and would rather just play her flute.

She's the type that doesn't care about the sound of battle from an adjacent room. She'd just keep playing her flute while on her bed of silver coins. When the heroes entered her chamber, she just slowly glanced at them, whispered 'Nuisance...' to herself, then slowly gets up and picks up her weapon. Far as she's concerned, she's a paladin, so she's superior to everyone else.

She wasn't expecting to be captured by the heroes, but she's just 'meh, I can escape any time anyway'.

Sir cryosin

2016-10-16, 07:55 AM

Well it sounds like she's just going to buy her time and then slip away playing her flute. Make were the players hear faint flute music but can't tell were it's coming from.

Gastronomie

2016-10-16, 08:06 AM

I concluded the first adventure with my party. They were all happy to get a stack of silver coins and exp to level to 2... but I wasn't expecting a clever use of Thunderwave to knock the villain off the escape rope. Now they have her 'hostage' (well, it's the barbarian that wants to keep her) when I had more plans for her in future adventures.

Which option would be best at this stage?

Have her escape one night/while they're adventuring
Make a mini-adventure of her mooks trying to save her
Make a new villain
You should always compliment your players for clever achievements. You might even have villains explain how the players' actions knocked their plans off course, be it something you actually planned or not (that way the players understand how their deeds greatly affected the world - they get to feel heroic and important).

If it's really important for you that that villain gets the later roles, and not anyone else, perhaps go for option 2. If it fails, or if you feel someone else can do it just as well, go for option 3. Never take option 1.

mephnick

2016-10-16, 08:06 AM

Whatever you do, give the players a chance to stop it, even if it's just a 0.00001% chance. Tracked down by overwhelming minion forces is fine if they have the means to do so. At least the PCs get a choice between giving up their prisoner and death.

If you just wave your hand and say "oops she ran away" it will feel like a cheap shot and that's a pretty bad trend to set as a DM.

Mandragola

2016-10-16, 12:17 PM

The players did something good and should be rewarded for doing it. If she just escapes one night then they'll feel like their actions can't affect the world - that they're on rails. Not a good thing.

But the adventure shouldn't end, granted. You need to come up with something cool to happen. Maybe she can get imprisoned, but then bribe or blackmail her way out, or be found innocent at trial. Maybe that indicates deeper corruption at play in the area, or just that she's more influential than they realise.

The only thing I would say is that as a DM you should never become emotionally attached to your NPCs. As someone says above, it's not your story, it's the players' story. They are the protagonists, not this NPC. If they just cut off her head, that's ok. It may have in-game implications for their characters but shouldn't have out of game implications at all. Just take the bits of story you've got planned for her and write in a different name - preferably someone who doesn't look like a carbon copy of the original.

Sianthus

2016-10-16, 01:24 PM

As someone says above, it's not your story, it's the players' story.

I respectfully disagree. It's everyone's story, including the DM. Just as the players can ask for certain fiats or allowances from the DM for whatever they feel is appropriate for their character and the story, so too can the DM ask. The key however, is in the word "ask". Both sides are under no hard obligation to listen to such requests. However, we must remember that this story is collaborative. Sometimes players and DMs working together on such cases brings about a richer and more complex narrative.

Of course, there is the danger of excessive railroading or heavy handedness, such as the previous example's DM just using a deus ex machina to get her out of being captured regardless of checks/rolls (i assume that was so). So there must be balance. Give and take. The players can't just say to the DM "This is OUR story alone, let us do what we want.", or vice versa. Try to work out a compromise. But like wolfkingleo has said, be ready with improvisation when the players don't.

I must emphasise that it is both side's responsibility to make the game work and the narrative flow. Devotion to your narrative/decisions, whether player or DM, has its time and place, but it's certainly not all the time. That's called stubbornness. Discuss it calmly and just enjoy where the story brings you, whether you're a DM or a player :))

Edit: And like countless others said, reward them when the party does something clever and perhaps unexpected. Success should feel like success. Don't take away their victory by DM cheating your way out! :D

(P.s. if they really do kill their hostage and you reaaaallly don't want them to, just let them kill the hostage. But bam, she's an outsider, a devil or smth, she comes back :P you can only ever do this once though. And boy are you gonna have to justify it in your narrative afterwards hehehe. It's a challenge in and of itself. Have fun!

smcmike

2016-10-16, 01:43 PM

This sounds like an opportunity, not a problem.

What are your players going to do with her? Are they going to execute her? If so, that's a problem for future use, but if not, she can really just bide her time. Eventually a circumstance will come up where she can eat away.

BUT - drop the idea that she can just get away at any time. If she is acting careless about her captivity, give some hints that this is an act. Let the players have some agency, and don't let her slip away until some circumstances really do arise.

In the meantime, try to develop the character a bit in their minds. Does she threaten the party? Negotiate? Try to single out one to betray the others?

ClintACK

2016-10-16, 01:53 PM

That's awesome! The "rails" are there in case your party doesn't want to make decisions and do things. If they're off the track you intended, then everything is going well!

Play off what your players choose to do, but know that you can make your story work no matter what. If they kill her, her part in the story is taken over by an ambitious underling or romantic partner intent on revenge, or whatever makes the story more fun. If they turn her in to the authorities, maybe they uncover corruption when she "escapes" after bribing some guards, or maybe she's executed, and you're back to the previous case. Or perhaps she's a good talker -- could she convince them to work together with her for a bit? Is she just after wealth, or does she have some noble motives? Are they interested in wealth? Perhaps she'd like to hire them to do a job that her previous mooks weren't good enough for... Perhaps it involves killing a monster who's preying on innocent villagers -- so win-win, wealth *and* heroics.

A captured villain is a *much* more powerful tool for planting adventure hooks and building the world than a dead or escaped villain could ever be.

Hopeless

2016-10-16, 02:01 PM

Her father pays her a visit.
He offers the party a bag of gold equal to the silver they recovered and if they honour their end of the deal a scroll that functions as a deed for an abandoned small way station nearby.
Of course they need to clear out the way station but the deed is legitimate and becomes the focus for your embittered villainess who wants to steal back what she thinks is rightfully hers as well as kick the PCs out of their new base just as they reclaim it from whatever creatures currently lurk there.
The father is a member of that villain organisation and a Thrawn style mastermind looking to recruit the PCs as troubleshooters so he can rebuild the nation and be the power behind the throne.
The fact he's actually benevolent hides the fact your villain group eventually decides to kick him out because they're idiots but that's standard fare for D&d villains isn't it?

Sigreid

2016-10-16, 02:06 PM

If she doesn't try to escape any time soon, the party will start getting lax on her security. I think in a few sessions she will have the opportunity to just leave. And, she'll be a valuable asset to your Legion of Doom as she will be intimately familiar with their personalities and habits.

fbelanger

2016-10-16, 02:23 PM

Socratov

2016-10-16, 02:50 PM

I'd pick door #3: the players should graduate to bigger fish. In te mean time while they are dealing with that: then she can run away unnoticed.

Hrugner

2016-10-16, 03:28 PM

Previous to the player's involvement, she had some sort of crew working for her to gain wealth right? Adventurers are great at gathering wealth. I recommend her attempting to continue on with her original plan, but using the PCs as her crew. If that requires some slightly more above board hoarding practices, then so be it. After awhile she should have enough wealth and trust gathered to leave the party on good terms and go back to her previous evil doing with little difficulty, some more cash, and a few allies.

Laserlight

2016-10-16, 04:04 PM

Could be worse. A couple of sessions ago, we started a new campaign. The DM had literally not said a word when I introduced my character; then he shook his head and said "You've already wrecked my plan." (He was expecting me to run a clever con artist; what I took was an INT 4 barbarian who only knows a few words)

In this case, I'd have the villain escape, if that seems plausiable; otherwise, I'd have her sister or second in command fill the role you'd planned for her to have.

And get used to losing your villains earlier than you expected. It's one of the hazards of being a DM.

Socratov

2016-10-16, 04:16 PM

Also, expect your players to, when in overwhelming opposition, not talk and parlay, but take the stupid way forward and die.

At least, mine did.

Mandragola

2016-10-16, 06:49 PM

I respectfully disagree. It's everyone's story, including the DM.

This is a fair point. I think that the idea I was trying to get across was that as a DM you actually don't have total control. The stuff that the players do can, and should, affect the outcome of the story. I do think that the PCs ought to be the heroes in the story, though of course an interesting villain can also be a great addition to the plot.

And this is why I talked about not being attached to NPCs, and especially villains. The players will tend to kill villains and you need to be ok with that.

Anway, here you (the DM) are in the position that you've got all this story, and with the character attached to the party you can actually tell them some of it. That's an opportunity, as smcmike points out. Have her play her flute or something, for starters.

Alerad

2016-10-16, 07:24 PM

Make many villains.

In one adventure the party was in a city divided between 4-5 mafia bosses. Each of them had certain characteristics, like traits (what they want and what do they fear), powers (wealth, hirelings, business, stronghold) and connection to each other. This way you have a very clear idea of what your villains can do.

#2 If someone is going to save her, you know exactly what her troops are like. If they are too low level maybe they'll give up the idea.

#3 You already have more villains. Someone can step up and claim her business if she is out of the picture.

Example: In my city Samantha was the head of the merchants' guild. She had most wealth of all, 10 Spies (disguised as beggars, etc.), 3 Doppelgangers and Information network of +8 (highest of all). Whenever characters ask questions in the city or make trouble, she rolls against their passive Deception to check if word gets to her. All villains have Awareness of the party, starting at 0, showing how much they find them troublesome. She would send a spy, a doppelganger, try to hire the party, try to kill them, or escape depending on how much trouble they gave her. Other villains had similar traits with different goals and mooks.

Hollysword

2016-10-16, 09:05 PM

This NPC is very greedy, that's why her method of obtaining silver (which was thwarted by the heroes) is very much illegal. She knows she won't get killed because the dragonborn in the party wants her, so I feel she's just going to play along. If the heroes ask her if she's reformed, she would most likely answer with "yeah, whatever..." (she never listened at all). Also, because she's a SILVER dragonborn PALADIN, and a proud, arrogant one at that, she feels she can convince any guards or judges.

I'll put her on hold for now, and make a new villain.

Mitth'raw'nuruo

2016-10-16, 09:59 PM

Our DM intended us to be captured. We were sent on a suicide mission, with flat out lies for intel. Our escort scouts seemed to die off in the dungeon. They never got the chance to use that pesky poison.

Then, we killed the big bad general. Who was level 12, us, level 6. He had help. Not enough.

Had the DM told us, we'd have never known. After the session, he fessed up.

Hollysword

2016-10-16, 11:25 PM

Gastronomie

2016-10-16, 11:32 PM

Made a new villain who I plan to get together with this current one. A lawful evil dwarf cleric. To make him look harmless (other than his weapons), I'll make him friendly, loves tradition and very protective of his allies. To connect him with the current one, I've also made him very attracted to dragonborns.

Thing is, is he too 'good' to be an evil character?An antagonist need not even be evil in the first place, as long as what he does antagonizes the player characters or violates their moral code. Great villains have not only cruelness and cunning, but also kindness and compassion. Not the false benevolence thrown in just to deceive the adventurers, but real benevolence from heart that happens to deceive the adventurers as a side effect. That sort of stuff is really fun to experiment with.

Could you explain to us "what makes that dwarf an villain"? I'm pretty sure he will be a good and memorable antagonist, but just curious.

EDIT: Does your sig continue to "Be as furious as the flower", or no?

Hollysword

2016-10-16, 11:36 PM

An antagonist need not even be evil in the first place, as long as what he does antagonizes the player characters or violates their moral code. Great villains have not only cruelness and cunning, but also kindness and compassion. Not the false benevolence thrown in just to deceive the adventurers, but real benevolence from heart that happens to deceive the adventurers as a side effect. That sort of stuff is really fun to experiment with.

Could you explain to us "what makes that dwarf an villain"? I'm pretty sure he will be a good and memorable antagonist, but just curious.

EDIT: Does your sig continue to "Be as furious as the flower", or no?

I made the NPC first because I plan to have them be recurring, and I'll plant him in appropriate adventures.

My sig is just that, gentle as the water.

Pex

2016-10-17, 12:19 AM

Don't punish the players for the audacity of succeeding. They got the villain. Put a period at the end of the story. Next adventure, new villain.

Arkhios

2016-10-17, 12:34 AM

Don't punish the players for the audacity of succeeding. They got the villain. Put a period at the end of the story. Next adventure, new villain.

Ever heard of recurring villains? They are a Thing. Like Dr. Evil, for example. They might get caught or chased away for a while but they will return with bigger plan to conquer the world for 1 million dollars (https://youtu.be/cKKHSAE1gIs?t=14)!

Hollysword

2016-10-17, 06:01 AM

I think I got it. This dwarf is a cleric of a war god. With that, all he cares about is combat and starting wars. The god demands that the followers show honor in combat, and the dwarf himself respects allies who prove themselves in combat. He's friendly towards others due to honor, but will start fights and attacks without mercy.

Maybe I'll have him chance upon the harbor town and cause some trouble. Also a good way to get him to find the captured silver dragonborn and ask for her release.

lordarkness

2016-10-17, 01:50 PM

Whenever your player's derail your plans then warning signs should go off in your head. Be careful that you're not dictating the story and forcing the players to do what you want and to be where you want them to be. Nothing saps their will and engagement faster than not being acknowledged for their exploits and misadventures.

Rather than worrying about getting back on track consider what would the captured character do? What is she like? Will she bide her time and allow her resentments stew and she endures captivity? Would she beg and plead? Would she fight to the death? Suicide rather than be helpless?

A character driven campaign is more engaging for everyone and you'll know it when players refer to the characters as if they were alive as opposed to being obstacles or tasks.

If the adventure is off the rails then lose the rails.

JakOfAllTirades

2016-10-17, 02:21 PM

This whole situation is an excellent opportunity to set the tone of your campaign and reward the players for good role-playing.

They've obviously avoided the typical "kill everyone and take their stuff" trope by capturing the villain alive and taken them prisoner. And it sounds like you're planning this villain to ally with some others in the future, so....

Have the allies show up early. And bargain for her release. The PCs will realize that living prisoners are valuable, and your new NPCs can reward them for saving the villain's life. Hopefully their merciful ways will be reinforced.

And at some point in the future, if the worst should happen and they're looking at a Total Party Kill, the villain whose life they once spared will remember, and decide to help them out when they need it most. (Or just spare their lives.) Just this once, because she owes them.

Specter

2016-10-17, 03:19 PM

I see a great opportunity to make a recurring villain here. Sure, they captured her, and something good should come out of that. But she will bide her time. And watch the strategies the PCs use in battle. And see what they care about. And test them to see if she can isolate one of them with evil behaviors.

After some time, the mooks come, and the PCs need to strategize in order to keep them from freeing her in the middle of combat. Because once she's fled, towns will be told stories of the five evil dudes headed their way, and she might tell about their strategies and problems to other evil-intended parties. And then, the players will hate her, and be 100% focused on killing her. And that will be fun, believe me.

Pex

2016-10-17, 03:22 PM

Ever heard of recurring villains? They are a Thing. Like Dr. Evil, for example. They might get caught or chased away for a while but they will return with bigger plan to conquer the world for 1 million dollars (https://youtu.be/cKKHSAE1gIs?t=14)!

Yes and annoying as heck. I am sick of The Joker for example. No sense of accomplishment when saving the day doesn't mean anything.

smcmike

2016-10-17, 03:39 PM

Yes and annoying as heck. I am sick of The Joker for example. No sense of accomplishment when saving the day doesn't mean anything.

I agree with this if the Bad is able to just sort of get away, without any chance for the players to impact events. Don't let her just slip away in the night, and don't give her a blatant deus ex machina escape either.

On the other hand, if the players are hauling a prisoner around long-term, she is going to have a chance to do something eventually. If the players really want to "solve" the problem, they can kill her, though that's a bit evil, especially if she is playing nice.

The trick is finding a believable and interesting scenario that gives the players a challenge related to her.

What happens if they bring her to town? What's the normal social/legal reaction to bringing in captives? Do they have evidence against her if it becomes a legal argument? Can she turn people against the party? Can she influence individual party members? If any members are morally suspect, maybe she can bribe one into letting her free, then play it off as an accident.

If she does get away, her captivity should affect her future actions - she should not just pick up the plot where it left off. What does she want, and what does she think of the party? If she is scared of them, maybe she should run, and try her luck somewhere far away. The look on her face when they run into her months later should be priceless. If she hates them, maybe she hired assassins or plans an ambush. Or maybe she tries to convince them she isn't what they thought, and tries to use them somehow.