giants' and dragons' stats

[bookkeeping guy]

So in a traditional sense we're all aware of how most ability scores fall into the range of 1 to 18 in a normal game setting for a character.

But I was thinking recently this only works well for medium sized humanoid creatures as far as Str, Con, and sometimes Dex even is concerned.

How do you account for those three stats when dealing with huge, large, or gangantuan creatures for modifications? Particularly giants and dragons would be interesting for how their stat builds would look.

Right?

How do you tweak those for those differences in larger creatures, particularly giants and dragons?

I mean...if a dragon can't lift a car with one hand it just isn't a dragon...and what about when its shapeshanged to a human shape? I would guess there'd be some loss in stats but still probably be stronger than most humans would be... O.o

Thank you for your feedback. I appreciate it.

[Inevitability]

A dragon using an ability to assume human form will normally have the average stats of a human body (10 strength, con, and dexterity). However, there are a few ways for one to keep its own strength.

The Strength of the True Form spell allows a dragon to use its own strength score for a single round, allowing for stuff like a human body lifting a cow.

There is also the Hidden Strength feat, which gives dragons up to a +8 strength bonus and +4 constitution bonus in humanoid form. It's probably closest to what you're describing.

Finally, the Half-Dragon Form feat lets a dragon turn into half-dragons, which is another good way to boost strength.

[Khedrac]

Basic D&D did what you seem to be describing - the stats were for humanoid creatures and not applicable to other critters.
AD&D did try to extend stats into a unified system. but by making 25 the highest possible and adding in percentile strenghts it made a mess of its own system.

3.5 D&D attempts to do exactly what you seem to have a problem with.

A typical human has, as you say, an average strength of 10.5. Possibly a little more for an experienced farmworker (common or expert 4 with level bonus in strength).

So dragons. The weakest Black dragon (first colour in stats) with a size of garganutan (can be represented by a 20x20x20 cube) has a strength of 35 (it's the wyrm).
A strength of 35 - so high it's off the table. Light load is probably (I may have gotten my extrapolation wrong) 1024 lb.

That is just over half a US ton, or just under half a metric tonne.

A big dragon, e.g. a great wyrm red dragon (just make it to Colossal) has a strength of 45 so its light load is about 2 tons/tonnes.

So, lifting a car? Well according to google US cars peaked at 4000lb in 2004 (that's 2 US tons which seems a very large number - I think that is the effect of all the big pickup and jeep/hummer typs vehicles, a reasonable car should be under 1 ton).
The black dragon can't lift 2 tons over it's head (1.6 is the limit) but it's not much more than twice as big as the vehicle.
The red dragon can lift over 6 tons over its head. It can throw that 2-ton truck at you (not very far perhaps, more of a heave than a throw).

So, you are asking D&D to do what it already does?

The stat numbers for draogns are fine. The problem potentially is in all the melee adventurers starting with 18 or 20 strengths, getting +5 from levels, a +6 item and a book for +5 - and being the same as the dragon.
Yes the dwarf fighter 20 with 36 strength probably can throw a light car back at the dragon.

Edit: Oh yes, rememebr that the dragon with 45 strength effectively rolled an 11, if it was allowed point buy and went for an 18 it would now have 52 strength, max load (=lift over head) 33,280lb or 16.64 US tons, 15.1 tonnes. I think this one is tossing a tanker at you before it uses its fire breath...

[Deadline]

Dragons are arguably quadrupeds, so your numbers may be a bit off Khedrac.

A creature with Tremendous Strength (i.e. 30+), finds the highest value in the table with a matching ones digit and then multiples that value by 4 for every 10 points above that value. So a light load for a creature with 45 strength is:

Light load for 25 strength = 266lbs

266*4*4 = 4,256lbs

Now, because the creature is Colossal, there is a further multiplier to be applied (*16 for a Colossal creature). If the creature is a quadruped, you use a different modifier (*24 for a Colossal quadruped). So you'd get:

4,256*24 = 102,144 lbs, or roughly 51 U.S. tons, as a light load. (68,096 lbs, or roughly 34 U.S. tons if you don't consider a dragon to be a quadruped).

That's ... quite a bit.

[thoroughlyS]

How do you account for those three stats when dealing with huge, large, or gangantuan creatures for modifications? Particularly giants and dragons would be interesting for how their stat builds would look.

Right?

How do you tweak those for those differences in larger creatures, particularly giants and dragons?
While not RAW, the Changes to Statistics by Size (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) illustrate that - as a rule - larger creatures generally are stronger, clumsier, and tougher.

[Khedrac]

Now, because the creature is Colossal, there is a further multiplier to be applied (*16 for a Colossal creature). If the creature is a quadruped, you use a different modifier (*24 for a Colossal quadruped). So you'd get:

4,256*24 = 102,144 lbs, or roughly 51 U.S. tons, as a light load. (68,096 lbs, or roughly 34 U.S. tons if you don't consider a dragon to be a quadruped).

That's ... quite a bit.I didn't know that. Thanks.

[jdizzlean]

couldn't a person in wild shape or polymorph use the base creature's str even though the current form is smaller?

For example, a changeling druid master of many forms could be turned into an Ettin, but using the changeling ability could resemble a smaller creature but still have the same STR as the Ettin correct?

[Inevitability]

For example, a changeling druid master of many forms could be turned into an Ettin, but using the changeling ability could resemble a smaller creature but still have the same STR as the Ettin correct?

Yes, though the differences won't be very great (disguise self has relatively strict limits when applied to larger creatures). No ettins that look like halflings: at most you're making it look like a very big ogre.

[Mordaedil]

The Draconomicon goes into the specifics of a player-character dragon and how rolled ability scores affect them. And yeah, basically they are assumed to have the commoner array in the monster's manual.

This bookkeeping guy is making a lot of threads like this and not responding to them. Is he a troll?