How do you play the stealth game?

[Buufreak]

Pretty much what it says on the tin. Frankly, I've never been much a fan of it, regardless of the platform. Console games it feels underwhelming unless given 100% dedication, and even then it's finicky. On tabletop, it only takes a single decision from a dm to be completely fubar'd. So how do other people work within the system to make it work? Is my disliking of stealth justified, or am I looking at it from the wrong angle?

[elonin]

How stealth works depends greatly on how the dm plays it. I've had dm's who denied that concealment existed unless they were jumping the party with sneak attacks themselves.

[Calthropstu]

How stealth works depends greatly on how the dm plays it. I've had dm's who denied that concealment existed unless they were jumping the party with sneak attacks themselves.

What's good for the goose etc.
The way I run stealth, you can't hide behind nothing. You can dash from cover to cover with no one looking, I give them a spot/perception bonus vs your hide + move silent/stealth. As long as you can get into partial charge range unseen, you're good to go for a surprise round.

Or some great espionage listen checks.

However, let's be realistic. If you're bringing durkon along, you're gonna have a bad time with that... even if you use silence, armor check penalties kick that stealth roll into the crapper.

So either leave your heavy tanks behind, expend some serious magic (silence + invisibility and maybe some others) or doing some lone scouting is the only real way party stealth will work.

Though I did once see an all rogue party obliterate a published module... which was awesome.

[D.M.Hentchel]

My general rule is places are not artificially lit except:
-Most creatures carry small light sources on them
-Most building have hearths burning most of the evening
-Very wealthy areas are lit by continual flame specifically to prevent stealth.

When designing encounters I try to make roughly half have a distinctively stealthy approach.

In addition:
-Every tree can be easily climbed and provide concealment while 10 ft. up
-Forests are litered with underbrush which can be hide in
-A DC 5 survival check indicates the direction of the wind (for scent)
-Ring of Darkhidden is common loot for stealthy characters.
-Thunderstones in addition to doing what they normally do, also turn off blindsense and blindsight for 1d4 rounds

The game for me is providing the environment and then providing reasonable capabilities to the enemy to counter stealth. It's about outthinking the opponent.

[jdizzlean]

my dm treats it as an extension or replacement to move silently/hide to escape detection. he generally lets you roll whichever is highest for a skill check.

[Crake]

The way I run stealth, you can't hide behind nothing. You can dash from cover to cover with no one looking, I give them a spot/perception bonus vs your hide + move silent/stealth. As long as you can get into partial charge range unseen, you're good to go for a surprise round.

There are actually already rules in place for a lot of that.

The main issue with stealth is that a) You usually have at least SOME chance of being noticed, and when you're rolling a hide/move silently every round, you will eventually be seen/heard which is bad, and b) this is usually made worse by DMs forgetting the range penalties to spot/listen.

So to alleviate this you basically need to boost your hide/move silently to ridiculous levels (+15 item, location feats to get skill focus hide/move silently/stealthy, boost your dex as much as you can, that will get you at least +23ish ontop of max ranks+base dex), get darkstalker to be able to hide from enemies with special senses, and also find some way to get hide in plain sight (perpetual collar of umbral metamorphosis should do the trick, note that the dark template's hide in plain sight was updated in Cormyr - Tearing of the Weave to let you still hide without cover/concealment, and was printed later, so by rules precedence is the version of the template that should be used. You also get +8 hide and +6 move silently from it which is good).

Once you have those things, and maybe, when you hit level 11, take a level in exemplar to let you take 10 on hide/move silently, you can quite literally walk right in front of people and they won't notice you. Boom, stealth game is suddenly viable. Even enemies with max ranks in spot and listen will not be able to HAVE A CHANCE at noticing you, assuming 18 base dex, +6 item, +15 skill item, +5 from location feats, and 14 ranks from level 11, then +8/6 from dark template, with take 10 you have 66/64 on your hide/move silently. To even have a chance at beating that with a natural 20 you need at least +46 spot/+44 listen BEFORE range penalties, which 99% of creatures will not even come close to having, and if enemies are investing that many resources to spot you, they have less resources to actually deal with you and your party.

Also note that remaining hidden while attack/running/charging only incurs a -20 penalty to hide (not move silently), so even when stabbing an opponent, you still have 46 on your hide check, so now they only need +26 spot to actually see you on a natural 20, which is still pretty low. Do note however, that even with total concealment, an enemy knows which square they were attacked from, so they can attempt to ready attacks when they feel you stab them, though you will benefit from 50% miss chance from total concealment. You're basically invsible! Only see invisibility won't find you, and neither will true seeing. Might want to cover up your magical auras with nystuls though, because if anyone thinks to cast arcane sight, your magical auras will light up like a christmas tree and they will at the very least know which square you're in.

[Gruftzwerg]

Regarding the question: "When can you use stealth?"

Unless you have "Hide in Plain Sight", you can only stealth when you deny your enemies/foes "Line of Sight" (LoS). That's the only real requirement.

Everything else is dealt with situational modifiers:

- running away from a guard, behind a corner & go into stealth: legit, but the guard gets situational bonuses. He noticed you and can predict how far you could have run, which should give a huge advantage (depending on the amount/quality of possible hideouts in the area).

- try to sneak past a guard who didn't noticed you yet, but he's in a small corridor: almost impossible, but still, you could try to climb ninja style over his head, if you have the skill and the corridor is high enough. Or you could try to misslead him with a stone to another place/corridor (maybe a bluff attempt?). Or wait until he gets sleepy and in the moment when he closes his eyes for a second, you sneak with full speed past him(penalty on your move silently roll).

Stealth has always to do with vision & timing. You don't need always something to cover behind it, cause you could even hide in the back of you foe. Just like in a cartoon when someone walks directly behind someone else without him noticing. There are many methods how you can stealth. It's just that most player (and some DM) think that stealth works just in the shades and such BS what is not part of D&D rules. You would just get bonuses (or the observer penalties) when you would have a darkened area and something to cover behind.
Stealth is all about opposing rolls and their situational modifiers.

[Pugwampy]

My general rule is if you beat my monster perception check , you get a free smack before combat starts . Lots of scout volunteers in my group.

In combat rogue needs to hide behind a bush or corner to go stealth .
If he gets close to do a range or melee backstab , the victim gets a final chance to try and beat his stealth .
Regardless if rogue makes his kidney poke or not he becomes visible then run away hide behind bush and repeat .

Thats my interpretation and style .

[Andezzar]

Regarding the question: "When can you use stealth?"

Unless you have "Hide in Plain Sight", you can only stealth when you deny your enemies/foes "Line of Sight" (LoS). That's the only real requirement.It is much worse than that. No one can have observed you yet and you must have concealment but not total concealment.

The good news is that in any situation with shadowy illumination grants concealment, the bad news is you cannot use sneak attack in shadowy illumination unless you have some form of improved vision.
A candle grants shadowy illumination within 5 ft, a torch from 20ft to 40 ft etc. More light sources and the illumination they grant can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#tableLightSourcesAndIllumination).

@Pugwampy: Don't your sneak attackers flank? Flanking allows a full attack with sneak attack damage. Also before a character has acted in combat he is flat-footed, so if you can get within 5ft of an opponent and have higher initiative, you can also make a full attack with sneak attack damage.

[Cheech]

I'm considering borrowing a rule from another system for stealth checks. Namely, when several characters are sneaking past the same foe(s), characters can donate the amount they exceed the DC by to other characters. Representing it being easier to follow in someone else's footsteps than choose a path for yourself, and the stealthier character's ability to point out and help navigate potential hazards.

(taken from FFG's Star Wars RPG)

[Crake]

Regarding the question: "When can you use stealth?"

Unless you have "Hide in Plain Sight", you can only stealth when you deny your enemies/foes "Line of Sight" (LoS). That's the only real requirement.


This is actually not true. In events where you have no line of sight between you and the person you are trying to hide from, there is actually no need for a hide check, you are automatically hidden, because, you know, they can't see you. It's only when you have cover/concealment that you must hide.

Also, people are forgetting that you CAN hide while being observed with a successful bluff check, tricking your foe into thinking you went one way but actually going to a different hiding location, or distracting them long enough to find a place to hide.

[Mordaedil]

I usually encourage keeping it as a complex skill challenge presented in UA, if we're doing something like scouting out a fortress and the rogue needs to get through unseen. It keeps the rolls to a minimum without feeling disatisfactory as they can better gauge their odds when they have a few failures, so it's not just one failure and you blew it and now your rogue is dead.

The more successes they get, the more of the map details they get. 1 success would give them the outline only, 3 successes would give them the placement of wall guards, 5 successes would give them an overview map of the camp, and more successes might give them positions of guards, patrol routes etc. Of course, I'd describe the steps undertaken to get this information and they can do optional things like taking out key guards, at the risk of being spotted or heard.

For other situations, I'd just allow the rogue to use stealth to not draw attention to themselves.

[Echch]

I would like to point out that sooner or later, you will probably require the Darkstalker feat. Without it, most senses will detect you regardless of how good you are.

[Knight Magenta]

One of the problems with stealth is that 3/4ths of the group usually can't participate. And if the scout gets caught, he dies alone. Worse, the payoff is terrible since the scout doesn't want to spring a surprise round on his own all you get on a successful scouting is some information that may or may not help. Since the scout usually is not also the knowledge master of the party even that is a dubious benefit.

Our group made a house rule for group stealth. Basically, you can have a single person guide others using his skills. The stealth leader makes a check with a penalty equal to the worst ACP of those he is guiding and -2 for each person he is guiding. That is the DC to detect anyone in the group. Basically a reverse aid another.

If you have 2 stealthy people in the party, they can each guide one other ally. This way the sneaky party members get to feel good about their investment, and everyone gets to participate in stealth missions.

[Crake]

One of the problems with stealth is that 3/4ths of the group usually can't participate. And if the scout gets caught, he dies alone. Worse, the payoff is terrible since the scout doesn't want to spring a surprise round on his own all you get on a successful scouting is some information that may or may not help. Since the scout usually is not also the knowledge master of the party even that is a dubious benefit.

Our group made a house rule for group stealth. Basically, you can have a single person guide others using his skills. The stealth leader makes a check with a penalty equal to the worst ACP of those he is guiding and -2 for each person he is guiding. That is the DC to detect anyone in the group. Basically a reverse aid another.

If you have 2 stealthy people in the party, they can each guide one other ally. This way the sneaky party members get to feel good about their investment, and everyone gets to participate in stealth missions.

Using a spell to share sensory perception, or simply just scrying the scout, or using telepathic bond can easily make it into a group experience, as people can get involved in decision making, where to go, what to inspect, that kind of thing. It will be one person doing the rolls, but everyone will be involved at least, and if the rogue gets in trouble, the wizard can teleport in with the party to either fight it out, or to bail the scout out.

[Flickerdart]

There is not just one kind of stealth in D&D.

Stealth, the one-player minigame
"I'll ask the rogue to scout ahead, so he's the one that risks falling into the ambush!" -Tordek, missing the point

As soon as "stealth guy" becomes a party role, everyone else at the table sits down and waits as the DM narrates what the stealthy character sees and hears. When he inevitably alerts the guards/monsters/monster guards, the rest of the party gets to play the even less fun game of "I double-move, and end my turn" while the rogue is getting tenderized by warhammers.

Then the rogue gets blamed for screwing up, even though the odds are stacked against him - the enemy only has to succeed once, and he has to succeed every time. Better hope your DM doesn't have a nat-20 or nat-1 houserule for skill check.

Stealth, the party pursuit
"If one ninja is awesome, four ninjas together are four times as awesome!" -A lie

Now everyone has to succeed every time on these checks, while enemies only have to notice one of the PCs once. And then you get no-sells like Mindsight that are impossible to get around, so the DM can shut down your entire party's thing whenever he feels like.

[Extra Anchovies]

There's always the option of traveling with the party, but using available cover - and the distraction provided by your noisy fellows - to conceal your presence. If you're spotted, the party was entering combat anyways. If you go unnoticed, you could swing the fight with a single attack from an unexpected position.

[NichG]

Generally the only time I see any kind of extended stealth game in 3.5ed is when the form of stealth the party has access to is somehow unbeatable. With stealth, especially in D&D, there's basically no margin between 'we will be seen' and 'we will not be seen' when it comes to doing an entire mission under stealth. Compare with combat - if you rush into a fight and the enemy is too dangerous or there's something you didn't expect, your hitpoint pool gives you a buffer to monitor 'I'm in trouble' without it become instantly unsalvageable. So based on your hitpoints, you can make the determination 'what we're doing doesn't work, we have to do something else'.

On the other hand, with stealth gameplay, if you're trying to make the entire mission go quietly (e.g. maintain stealth for the entire party for the entire run), any single failure at any point basically scraps that plan. So either you tend to ensure that there's no points of failure possible within reason (everyone has Superior Invisibility and Silence and so on), or you tend not to rely on prolonged stealth as a realistic tool for the party to employ (because its certain to fail at some point along the way).

On the other hand, you can use this observation to design systems that answer the problem. I once ran a campaign where the stealth mechanics worked like a hitpoint pool. Based on a character's stealth abilities, they received some number of 'pips' that they could spend to engage in particular stealth actions with a 100% guarantee of being unseen. Opponents with perception abilities didn't roll to spot characters, but rather they modified the pip costs for stealth actions in their vicinity. So the threat of being spotted was more about the threat that the situation would change such that unforeseen costs came up, not that someone would fail a die roll and the party would suddenly be exposed.

So that let players come up with plans along the lines of 'we need to pass 3 rooms to get to the treasure, and its 1 pip per room, 2 if there's a guard; I have 7 pips, so even if there's a guard in each room I can get in and out safely'. But at the same time, if stealing the treasure dropped some security doors so that now they had to pass 5 rooms to get out, the players could also conclude 'if we just go out along this new path, we're going to get spotted'. Having that kind of guarantee made extended stealth a much more viable option, and the players made significantly more use out of it than I've seen in e.g. D&D campaigns.