Optimization 3.5 Druid advancement questions [Archive]

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jdizzlean

2016-10-16, 05:41 PM

To start, I haven't played D&D in quite a number of years, so a lot of things are old "new" to me. I am playing w/ 3 rules wizards, so interpretation is pretty non-existent. For the most part, anything in print is a viable option for use.

I'm playing a changeling druid:
STR 16 DEX 16 CON 17 INT 15 WIS 17 CHA 14

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=856215

My character progression is planned to be:

Druid to lvl 5, Master of Many Forms to 7, Warshaper to 9, MoMF to 14 (lvl 7 MoMF), warshaper to 16 (lvl 4 WS) and then I'm not sure if I'll go back to druid, or continue on w/ MoMF.

I'm going to pretty much dump attribute pts into CON. Warshaper at lvl 2 gives a bonus of +4 to STR and CON as well.

http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/master-of-many-forms
http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/warshaper

I've read quite a few things online, including the MoMF Bible, of which my DM just laughed at about half of..

I envision my character being the tank of the group in combat, doing quite a bit of melee/grapple fighting, and being a support character otherwise w/ my limited spells, and varied shapechaning abilities. The rest of the group is a ranger, sorc, wizard, rogue, and an occasional drop in cleric who is Mark the Red most of the time (The Gamers reference).

My typical character in the past has always been the rogue or ranger, so I'm unfamiliar w/ how druids should be played.

Currently I'm lvl 3, so I have some time yet before things start getting serious, but I'm wondering first off which feats I should take, on my possible list right now is:

= shifter instincts (races of eberron) +1 listen, spot, sense motive +2 initiative
= Natural spell?
= iron will? - +2 will save
= multi attack - secondary attacks at -2 instead of -5
= assume supernatural ability? (savage species)

I have so far taken Endurance and Alertness to meet the MoMF prereq.

I know that w/ Warshaper/MoMF i can get pretty out of control attacks wise, but I'm not trying to turn into a pun pun, just to be effective in the group. I'm not planning on playing it w/ 15 attacks each round, and I'm sure my DM would either just say no outright, or put us up against something that would easily defeat that and just kill us all (or just me) anyways.

That said, I don't know where to go equipment wise. What should I be planning for, saving up for to be made, etc. I've read the arguements for Dragonhide plate/shields and/or monk's belt etc. Monk's belt would only give me a +4 ac as I'm not planning on bumping my WIS up at all, so that seems like an expensive route to go considering Warshaper will give me a higher attack dmg anyways, don't think I could swing the double jump past my DM, but I suppose a rational arguement could be made for that right?

There's really no point to me getting a weapon beyond the club i'm swinging around right now as I'll be wild shaped the majority or all of the time correct?

Armor wise, he's basically said that wildling clasps are rare, so I either need to find one, or find someone willing to make one which will likely cause it to be more than the listed 4k gold each. sad day for me. He's also said that going the Wild enchantment route would not negate the armor check penalty, so getting dragonhide full plate for a massive ac bonus w/ wild enchantment, would still have the equally massive dex check negative added to it. which brings me back to monks belt (in which case I need to spend one attribute point at like lvl 8 into WIS to up the bonus to +4 at least) or some other option that I don't know what it is...

So, thoughts on gear, feats, etc to make me viable in the group would be appreciated. I'm a long term planner, but right now I don't know what I should be obsessing over, which is driving me crazy :)

Only thing missing off my sheet above is loot from the last game, which should be substantial considering that I gained 3360 xp and jumped 2 lvls..

Additionally, and finally as an afterthought on animal companions: first upgrade from the wolf will be a fleshraker dino: http://rpgzone.lefora.com/topic/19401904#.V42EzxJUWew but does anyone have input on whether it's best to just stick w/ that, or upgrade into other beasties as I go along? I won't be needing a mount for me..

Thanks, I know that's a lot of info.

Bad Wolf

2016-10-16, 08:10 PM

eggynack

2016-10-16, 08:27 PM

My handbook is really more about druid stuff in the hands of druids, but it does have some stuff relevant to MoMF's., and some stuff clearly relevant to your third level self. Some of the item section, the spell section up to third level, maybe some other stuff like feats, variants, and prestige classes, y'know, general stuff. Things of particular interest are the mantle of the beast from complete champion, an item which grants swift action wild shape, effective wild shape level boosters like the wild shape amulet from magic of faerun or the skin of kaletor from dragon 328, a lesser rod of extend spell, which I'll note the utility of below, and the entry on MoMF's itself, which notes a couple of forms that can grant some casting. Natural spell is interesting, meanwhile. It has some utility, like the couple of bite of the wereX spells you get, the few swift/immediate action spells like alter fortune and and instant of power, and the general ability to bring about direct impact through magic, but you can also just turn most or all of those spells into long term buffs. Primal spells, heart of X spells, snowshoes, greater magic fang, and a whole lot of others. So, natural spell is useful for this sort of build, but not strictly necessary because you can put those spells to other use. Still, shifter instincts and iron will kinda suck. Dunno exactly how I'd pursue direct combat through natural weapons and such, but if that's the best you can do feat-wise (and I'm doubtful), then natural spell seems like a good choice. Also, shifter instincts is for shifters, not changelings. Not sure how you'd take it anyway, with that in mind. But, if you meant shifter in the first place, then they get two nice substitution levels.

Pyromancer999

2016-10-16, 09:22 PM

I would highly recommend finishing off MoMF, if only for the Gargantuan Forms, if not the Dragon ones. For your last level, you can go Nature's Warrior to gain an ability to enhance all of your Wildshaped forms.

Fizban

2016-10-16, 10:24 PM

I am playing w/ 3 rules wizards, so interpretation is pretty non-existent.
I've read quite a few things online, including the MoMF Bible, of which my DM just laughed at about half of..
So you actually mean interpretation is king? That second line sounds troubling, do you mean your DM said he's not worried about DMing it at all, or that they're banning half of it?

Darrin

2016-10-17, 07:10 AM

Gnaeus

2016-10-17, 07:38 AM

Have you considered the Wildshape Ranger variant from Unearthed Arcana? It's probably more suited to what you're trying to do than Druid 5. If you need an animal companion what scales up by character level, the Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat is regarded as an acceptable substitute.

Why? 5 levels of Druid casting and the Druid spell list beats the heck out of 3 BAB and 6 HP, even if your goal is beating face.

Why str 16, int 15? Your str will be dumped, but there is always room for another maxed skill.

If willing clasps are hard to find, why not just take craft wondrous items yourself. It's one of the best feats in the game. It will help you balance with the muggles in the party. And even if you never exceed CL 5 you can still cooperatively craft with party members, and you'd be surprised at how many useful things you can make. It frees the wizard up to make wands (which as a Druid you could still use) or arms/armor

jdizzlean

2016-10-17, 11:00 AM

Well feat-wise, I think the forum would gut me if I didn't strongly recommend you take Natural Spell. At around level 9 you can spend your whole day in animal form, so why be a human when you can be a bear?

Probably best to go WIS for attribute points, as Strength and Dexterity change when you wildshape. So does Constitution, but that doesn't give you additional HP.

And also keep the fleshraker. It's probably the best animal companion there is. The spell Venomfire (Druid 3) gives 1d6/caster level of acid damage to each of the creature's poison attacks. Your Dino will be dropping giants.

My CON changes, but that doesn't reflect my HP's, those I retain from my own stat, which is why I'd want to dump into it right? What would be the reason to dump into WIS when I can't get higher spell levels than I already have?

My handbook is really more about druid stuff in the hands of druids, but it does have some stuff relevant to MoMF's., and some stuff clearly relevant to your third level self. Some of the item section, the spell section up to third level, maybe some other stuff like feats, variants, and prestige classes, y'know, general stuff. Things of particular interest are the mantle of the beast from complete champion, an item which grants swift action wild shape, effective wild shape level boosters like the wild shape amulet from magic of faerun or the skin of kaletor from dragon 328, a lesser rod of extend spell, which I'll note the utility of below, and the entry on MoMF's itself, which notes a couple of forms that can grant some casting. Natural spell is interesting, meanwhile. It has some utility, like the couple of bite of the wereX spells you get, the few swift/immediate action spells like alter fortune and and instant of power, and the general ability to bring about direct impact through magic, but you can also just turn most or all of those spells into long term buffs. Primal spells, heart of X spells, snowshoes, greater magic fang, and a whole lot of others. So, natural spell is useful for this sort of build, but not strictly necessary because you can put those spells to other use. Still, shifter instincts and iron will kinda suck. Dunno exactly how I'd pursue direct combat through natural weapons and such, but if that's the best you can do feat-wise (and I'm doubtful), then natural spell seems like a good choice. Also, shifter instincts is for shifters, not changelings. Not sure how you'd take it anyway, with that in mind. But, if you meant shifter in the first place, then they get two nice substitution levels.

I haven't read yours, the one I have read is here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471903-Updated-Master-of-Many-Forms-Bible-Official-Wild-Shape-Rules-May-2006-(HarzerKatze)

Can you link yours, perhaps it's different/better?
I looked at shifter instincts and shapechanger subtype as the same thing, other then mentioning it to the DM as possible feats later on, there was no discussion about it. I was only really interested in it for the initiative bump, and the other +'s were just a bonus. In hindsight, is my initiative based off the form i'm in as my DEX stat changes, or is it reflective of my base stat?

So you actually mean interpretation is king? That second line sounds troubling, do you mean your DM said he's not worried about DMing it at all, or that they're banning half of it?

I meant that as in interpreting the rules in favor of the me the player is unlikely as they are very white/black in their reading/following of them. So I won't be able to argue as much in a creative fashion for things. As for the MoMF Bible, he just laughed and said half of that was BS and he wouldn't allow it, but short of me figuring out which half at the time of implementation, I don't know what he was irked about. I do know as stated that he said the Dragonhide full plate would be the double edged sword..

Have you considered the Wildshape Ranger variant from Unearthed Arcana? It's probably more suited to what you're trying to do than Druid 5. If you need an animal companion what scales up by character level, the Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat is regarded as an acceptable substitute.

I hadn't. Partly because I didn't even look at ranger as that is something I've done before and wanted to play something different. Plus, I'd have to wait even longer to go into MoMF if I had to burn a feat on Cohort for the animal companion, or take a race like human for a bonus feat, and that's just boring :)

Why? 5 levels of Druid casting and the Druid spell list beats the heck out of 3 BAB and 6 HP, even if your goal is beating face.

Why str 16, int 15? Your str will be dumped, but there is always room for another maxed skill.

If willing clasps are hard to find, why not just take craft wondrous items yourself. It's one of the best feats in the game. It will help you balance with the muggles in the party. And even if you never exceed CL 5 you can still cooperatively craft with party members, and you'd be surprised at how many useful things you can make. It frees the wizard up to make wands (which as a Druid you could still use) or arms/armor

the stats scores are probably because i'm stupid and didn't think of that. That, or I did it so I could survive a little easier for the first few levels in melee and be more viable and feel less useless.

As for the crafting, I didn't want to be burning xp to make things, but other then that I don't have a good reason. That's something else I have no experience with, so wasn't sure of the mechanics of it. I'll read up on that. How would cooperative crafting work, do you split the penalty or DC roll?

eggynack

2016-10-17, 11:28 AM

Why? 5 levels of Druid casting and the Druid spell list beats the heck out of 3 BAB and 6 HP, even if your goal is beating face.
Very true. Spells like primal instinct, heart of water, luminous armor, greater magic fang, snowshoes, obscuring snow/snowsight, and a wide variety of other combat relevant long term buffs provide a very robust sort of melee advantage as opposed to the ranger's simple statistical benefits. And then you even get to add on a bunch of fancy utility spells, ones like whispering sand, stoneshape, wood wose, one with the land, omen of peril, and lesser restoration. That in and of itself can be a good value add depending on the party, even at higher levels. Also, druid happens to be a better class before MoMF, so it's all upside. The only problem with druid as an entry point, the one I keep coming back to, is that the transition from druid to MoMF is a feel bad downgrade, while the transition from ranger to MoMF is a feel good upgrade. From an optimization perspective though, it seems like druid is way better.

I haven't read yours, the one I have read is here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471903-Updated-Master-of-Many-Forms-Bible-Official-Wild-Shape-Rules-May-2006-(HarzerKatze)

Can you link yours, perhaps it's different/better?
My druid handbook is in my sig. It's about druids in general rather than MoMF's specifically. Could be useful for the purposes I mentioned though.

I looked at shifter instincts and shapechanger subtype as the same thing, other then mentioning it to the DM as possible feats later on, there was no discussion about it. I was only really interested in it for the initiative bump, and the other +'s were just a bonus. In hindsight, is my initiative based off the form i'm in as my DEX stat changes, or is it reflective of my base stat?
Your dexterity bonus to initiative changes with your form. Other bonuses to initiative generally stick around, because you tend to retain things from wild shape. But, y'know, if you somehow had an extraordinary special attack granting initiative, it won't anymore.

I meant that as in interpreting the rules in favor of the me the player is unlikely as they are very white/black in their reading/following of them. So I won't be able to argue as much in a creative fashion for things. As for the MoMF Bible, he just laughed and said half of that was BS and he wouldn't allow it, but short of me figuring out which half at the time of implementation, I don't know what he was irked about. I do know as stated that he said the Dragonhide full plate would be the double edged sword..
I don't know of much, or anything, in the MoMF bible that isn't accurate. It's mostly just directly saying things you get. Only real flaw to my mind is that it's not expansive enough, in not including those super rare explicitly extraordinary special qualities that grant a measure of casting.

jdizzlean

2016-10-17, 11:55 AM

And also keep the fleshraker. It's probably the best animal companion there is. The spell Venomfire (Druid 3) gives 1d6/caster level of acid damage to each of the creature's poison attacks. Your Dino will be dropping giants.

I don't see Venomfire in the PHB, can you quote me the spell text, and book that's in??

Things of particular interest are the mantle of the beast from complete champion, an item which grants swift action wild shape,

is that different than the class feature:

Fast Wild Shape (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a master of many forms can use her wild shape ability as a move action, rather than as a standard action.

and for later on would that count as armor for the purpose of cancelling out monk's belt if i end up going that route?

eggynack

2016-10-17, 12:22 PM

I don't see Venomfire in the PHB, can you quote me the spell text, and book that's in??
Serpent kingdoms, and it causes a creature's poison to deal an extra 1d6 acid damage/level on each use for hours/level.

is that different than the class feature:

Fast Wild Shape (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a master of many forms can use her wild shape ability as a move action, rather than as a standard action.
Yes. Swift actions are different from move actions. That ability does lower the value of the item though.

and for later on would that count as armor for the purpose of cancelling out monk's belt if i end up going that route?
Shoulder item, so no.

jdizzlean

2016-10-17, 12:31 PM

PS, in your guide what does ACF mean?

eggynack

2016-10-17, 12:36 PM

PS, in your guide what does ACF mean?
Alternative class feature.

Gnaeus

2016-10-17, 01:15 PM

As for the crafting, I didn't want to be burning xp to make things, but other then that I don't have a good reason. That's something else I have no experience with, so wasn't sure of the mechanics of it. I'll read up on that. How would cooperative crafting work, do you split the penalty or DC roll?

There probably won't be a roll since it sounds like 3.5. If you are in PF, the rolls are usually easy to beat, since most people keep spellcraft high anyway.

For joint crafting, IIRC, you provide the feat, the wizard provides the spell, either of you can pay the exp cost.

Burning exp isn't usually a problem. Let's say you crafted 40,000 gp worth of items. Like 10 wildling clasps. At 1/25, you spent 1600 exp. By the time you are spending 20k on gear, that's a small fraction of one level. Even a hard working crafter has a really hard time managing to spend more than 1 level of experience. And functionally doubling your WBL is usually way stronger than a single level. And if you are a level lower, you then get exp faster than everyone else until you catch up (referred to on the board as "exp is a river"). Or cooperate with the wizard and make him spend some of the exp costs. Or the ranger, cleric and sorcerer. Particularly if you are making things for them anyway.

The only compelling reason to not take craft wondrous is if your DM will give you little/no downtime to craft with. Check that in advance.

jdizzlean

2016-10-18, 10:49 AM

ok, so i looked at craft wonderous and it seems like something fun to do. my only remaining question on that is what is the craft check at the end reflective of for items that don't have a required craft skill in the creation?

for example:

bracers of armor, is that leatherworking, tailoring/weaving since it doesn't say it's leather, armorcrafter, etc, etc
circlet of blasting, goldsmithing, jewelcrafting, etc
any of the "eyes of" items, any of the ioun stones or pearls, periapts, brooches, etc

can you just take ranks in craft for that after creation craft check w/o it being a specific skill in order to make the wonderous item craft check?

and I can take 10 on that roll correct? that way I only need to sink so many points into craft in the first place to guarantee success

Gnaeus

2016-10-18, 02:52 PM

I'm not really sure what you are talking about. In 3.5 you don't need to make a craft check to make a magic item. In PF you do, but you don't pay experience.

ExLibrisMortis

2016-10-18, 02:58 PM

Gnaeus

2016-10-18, 03:17 PM

You COULD make the bracers themselves with a craft check, but the mundane crafting rules are terrible. They take too long, are a waste of skill points, and aren't needed to be an item crafter.

ace rooster

2016-10-18, 05:14 PM

Why? 5 levels of Druid casting and the Druid spell list beats the heck out of 3 BAB and 6 HP, even if your goal is beating face.

You also get endurance for free, which frees up a feat. I agree that it is still not worth it, but the feat is big. Being able to use metal gear can also be a huge benefit, as dragonhide full plate for a bear is not cheap, and tends to annoy dragons.

Dragon wild shape from draconomicon is hugely worth considering at level 12. You need a wis of 19, but it gets you medium dragon forms including the breath weapon and other supernaturals (and there are some great ones). Shadow is a real gem, but many of the 2nd breath weapons are powerful SoSs. Blind sense, flight, and immunity to at least one element are not even the reason you go for this.

Why go to the trouble of having magic items that adjust? Why not just stick to one form and have magic armour in that shape? What's the point of being able to spontaneously summon elementals if you aren't going to get one to help you put your armour on in animal form?

jdizzlean

2016-10-18, 05:15 PM

I'm not really sure what you are talking about. In 3.5 you don't need to make a craft check to make a magic item. In PF you do, but you don't pay experience.

ahh, i c what i did there, i read a forum post on PF w/o noticing that fact, and it threw me off. Ok, so no points in craft needed at all, just xp and gold and time w/ the feat.

whew.

jdizzlean

2016-10-18, 05:32 PM

Dragon wild shape from draconomicon is hugely worth considering at level 12. You need a wis of 19, but it gets you medium dragon forms including the breath weapon and other supernaturals (and there are some great ones). Shadow is a real gem, but many of the 2nd breath weapons are powerful SoSs. Blind sense, flight, and immunity to at least one element are not even the reason you go for this.

I like this a lot.

hugs and kisses.

Gnaeus

2016-10-19, 07:24 AM

jdizzlean

2016-10-19, 09:58 AM

I'm not sure I would recommend DWS for him.

It's a fantastic feat. It helps with lots of immunities, and provides a good AC high speed spellcasting platform. But there are better ways to go for eating faces, and he won't be primarily a caster.

that feat also says explicitly that you don't gain the spell casting, just the supernatural and extraordinary aspects of the dragon. so other then immunities, or being able to be one of the dragons that has a Ex of also being able to be an animal/human form, (because being a dragon who is in human form, who you then use your changeling to look like something else is just fun) the damages from them all in melee aren't worth it. a few have decent breath weapons, but you can't use that every round. If it allowed those, it'd be more worth it. Plus, I would probably still have to argue the familiarity thing w/ the DM who is being a bit of a stickler about that.

To make it a viable face eater, i'd have to cheese it w/ the warshaper abilities, and i'm trying to do as little cheese as possible for the most part.

DRAGON WILD SHAPE
[GENERAL]
You can take the form of a dragon.

Prerequisites: Wis 19, Knowledge (nature) 15 ranks, wild shape ability.

Benefit: You can use your wild shape ability to change
into a Small or Medium dragon. You gain all the extraor-
dinary and supernatural abilities of the dragon whose
form you take, but not any spell-like abilities or spellcast-
ing powers.

Gnaeus

2016-10-19, 11:18 AM

that feat also says explicitly that you don't gain the spell casting, just the supernatural and extraordinary aspects of the dragon. so other then immunities, or being able to be one of the dragons that has a Ex of also being able to be an animal/human form, (because being a dragon who is in human form, who you then use your changeling to look like something else is just fun) the damages from them all in melee aren't worth it. a few have decent breath weapons, but you can't use that every round. If it allowed those, it'd be more worth it. Plus, I would probably still have to argue the familiarity thing w/ the DM who is being a bit of a stickler about that.

To make it a viable face eater, i'd have to cheese it w/ the warshaper abilities, and i'm trying to do as little cheese as possible for the most part.

I wasn't suggesting that you got the dragon's casting. But for a full Druid who wants to be casting Druid spells dragon forms can speak and manipulate items, while being fast, with nice utility and defenses.

eggynack

2016-10-19, 12:06 PM

Also, form adding feats are going to be intrinsically limited in utility here. You already have so many forms to choose from. If you wanted to spend all your time in a medium Su accessible dragon form, then why not go straight druid and take the feat? You only get one form at a time, so additional forms tend to need to be something of an upgrade to have value, and if any quantity of form adding through a feat is something you'd consider an upgrade to seven levels of practically nothing but form adding, then, in a more general sense, it strikes me that those seven levels are mostly wasted.

jdizzlean

2016-10-19, 02:04 PM

eggynack

2016-10-19, 04:55 PM

The feat is substantially different from the MoMF ability, to the point that they're just not all that comparable. The critical distinction is that the feat allows Su's, while the ability does not. And that means a lot. A lot of the utility from druid dragon forms is all the cool abilities you get, which, as has been noted, tend to combine well with casting.

Granted, some of that utility will be lost if you're just hitting folks, but the point here is that the MoMF ability is definitely not a perfect replacement or strictly superior. In fact, I'd think that other form additions would better replicate what you'd get through the feat. After all, aberrations tend to do better with Ex than dragons do with Su.

ace rooster

2016-10-20, 06:11 AM

i agree, it might be fun as something to play around w/ but it'd be more of a sideline to what i'm doing anyways, besides, at MoMF 10, you can be a gargantuan dragon, so why limit yourself to small/med size.

that said, i'd probably only throw it on if i can't find a better feat at that level, unlikely.

right now, thinking this is how i'll proceed

6: Natural spell
9; craft wondrous item
12: assume supernatural ability (savage species)
15: multi attack - secondary attacks at -2 instead of -5
18:

so 18 is the one up in the air, and by that point dragon wild shape would be pointless

Do you have a particular form that you want to use that you need MoMF for? Until you get extraordinary abilities you are hard pressed to beat bear form anyway, especially as full druids can cast animal growth on themselves. The extraordinary abilities only kick in at level 12 at the earliest, so that means between level 5 and 12 MoMF doesn't really give you anything besides shapes with worse stats without any of the good bits. If you are focusing on that late utility from the extraordinary abilities from MoMF (A way to guarantee the game ends at level 11) it doesn't make sense to delay it with warshaper at all, especially as that will always mean you cannot get forms at your full HD.

Dragon wildshape is fantastic because it gets you similar utility to MoMF 7 at the cost of a feat instead of 7 levels. It comes online at the same time, but doesn't need to be committed to at level 6. The only possible difficulty is wis 19, but that is not exactly wasted on a druid.

Your feats don't make a huge amount of sense to me. Natural spell and CWI are great feats, but feel against the grain if you are not going to advance your casting at all. If the aim is chewing faces, multiattack should probably be in 6 (if you focus on forms with many attacks). Power attack or some other combat focused feat would make much more sense if combat is what you are going for. Combat expertise would make sense if you are wanting to tank it up, and improved trip then looks great.

Assume supernatural ability is far more limited than you seem to think. You have to pick a single supernatural ability when you take the feat, and it gives you that one only. Works great for beholder eye rays to get the ultimate excavation tool (disintigrate eye ray), so it does have it's uses if you want to focus on something specific, but I don't think you do.

The biggest problem is that I don't think this does what you want it to. You don't get a lot of utility till quite late on, sacrifice the druid casting utility early to get it, and in combat wild shapes are not particularly tanky. You don't get the full BAB or favoured enemy of a wildshaping ranger, so you end up comparable in combat to the original creature. They typically have a CR considerably below their HD, so you will always be far less powerful than the enemies you are up against. You are not much more powerful than the creatures you can summon as a full druid even.

eggynack

2016-10-20, 06:23 AM

Do you have a particular form that you want to use that you need MoMF for? Until you get extraordinary abilities you are hard pressed to beat bear form anyway, especially as full druids can cast animal growth on themselves.
Wild shape does not alter type, so you can't typically animal growth yourself. You need something like aspect of the wolf to pull that off, which is not ideal.

Your feats don't make a huge amount of sense to me. Natural spell and CWI are great feats, but feel against the grain if you are not going to advance your casting at all.
Natural spell loses a bunch of utility without full casting, but it still has some. Two of the big spells you get are instant of power and alter fortune, and you also get random stuff like blockade thrown in for good measure. Y'know, stuff that doesn't eat actions. Something like mass snake's swiftness isn't dropping utility later on either.

The biggest problem is that I don't think this does what you want it to. You don't get a lot of utility till quite late on, sacrifice the druid casting utility early to get it, and in combat wild shapes are not particularly tanky.
I tend to see MoMF as something of a class unto itself. If you think of it as a druid add-on, it's awful, but as an independent class that just happens to be somewhere around tier two or three, depending on optimization and level, it manages to be, well, around tier two or three. Straight druid would obviously be better here, but that tends to be the case always.

They typically have a CR considerably below their HD, so you will always be far less powerful than the enemies you are up against. You are not much more powerful than the creatures you can summon as a full druid even.
I figure that HD would have to be about double CR to turn you into a summoned creature, and I doubt that's the case. It's even less the case because you pick the forms, and the forms you pick are generally going to have above average ratios.

ace rooster

2016-10-20, 06:46 AM

Wild shape does not alter type, so you can't typically animal growth yourself. You need something like aspect of the wolf to pull that off, which is not ideal.

Oops, thought it worked off polymorph. In that case animal shapes is pretty much better.

Natural spell loses a bunch of utility without full casting, but it still has some. Two of the big spells you get are instant of power and alter fortune, and you also get random stuff like blockade thrown in for good measure. Y'know, stuff that doesn't eat actions. Something like mass snake's swiftness isn't dropping utility later on either.

I didn't say bad, just against the grain. It is just concerning when a build is getting such a large chunk of it's power from the 5 levels picked to get into the build.

I tend to see MoMF as something of a class unto itself. If you think of it as a druid add-on, it's awful, but as an independent class that just happens to be somewhere around tier two or three, depending on optimization and level, it manages to be, well, around tier two or three. Straight druid would obviously be better here, but that tends to be the case always.

Sure, so why enter from druid? Then why spend 2 feats on being a better druid as opposed to being a better MoMF. Also, do you think it starts tier 2, or it becomes tier 2 at level 7? If you are having to play those 7 levels the difference is massive.

I figure that HD would have to be about double CR to turn you into a summoned creature, and I doubt that's the case. It's even less the case because you pick the forms, and the forms you pick are generally going to have above average ratios.
Summons have the benefit of being expendable though, and can benefit from animal growth. You have to be doing hugely better than summons to be viable, and on it's own wild shape does not give you enough IMHO.

eggynack

2016-10-20, 07:02 AM

Oops, thought it worked off polymorph. In that case animal shapes is pretty much better.
They both operate off of alternate form. I guess shapes can hit multiple creatures, but wild shape has fancy interactions, particularly with enhance wild shape, and a bunch of alternate form options.

I didn't say bad, just against the grain. It is just concerning when a build is getting such a large chunk of it's power from the 5 levels picked to get into the build.

It's a meaningful power source, but I'd consider it more support for the other things you're doing. Better a bear with a really good initiative mod than one without, but perhaps better a bear without the mod than a normal fellow with it. Natural spell just expands that utility a bit. Not really sure why craft wondrous is such a caster thing. It can only be gained by a caster, but the utility gained is broad.

Sure, so why enter from druid?
Because it's a stronger entry path. It's not like it's insanely stronger, but you get some real benefits.

Then why spend 2 feats on being a better druid as opposed to being a better MoMF.
As was noted, craft doesn't seem like a better druid thing at all. Natural spell is more useful in how it augments combat forms than in how it impacts combat directly. Sure, every so often you can prepare and toss out a stone shape or wind wall, but I think it's more about low action cost spells and maybe pre-combat buffs.

Also, do you think it starts tier 2, or it becomes tier 2 at level 7? If you are having to play those 7 levels the difference is massive.
Probably gets there at that point. Ex abilities on all those forms is crazy. Especially once you pull in casting. Tier three is good though.

Summons have the benefit of being expendable though, and can benefit from animal growth. You have to be doing hugely better than summons to be viable, and on it's own wild shape does not give you enough IMHO.
Wild shape, especially this expanded wild shape, is a lot more versatile though. Tons of immunities, attack modes, and wacky abilities, where SNA is limited to a strict list. Also, the argument from casting awesomeness still seems way too broadly applicable to be all that meaningful.

ace rooster

2016-10-20, 02:09 PM

Gnaeus

2016-10-20, 04:13 PM

CWI is limited by CL, which isn't going to get high enough to make most of the things that you want to. It is probably worth speaking to the rest of the party, because you can get spells from other casters to build items. This means that CWI is probably better on the wizard and they can use your spells to build the items you want.
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Most of the things that he wants are wildling clasps. Which he can make at level 5. Yeah, if the wizard will take it, fantastic. But the wizard may be making wands. The sorcerer rods. And the cleric armor. Or they might not care. The ability to use his gear in wild shape is worth more than any 2 feats on your list. But sure, if someone else has more free feats than you do and is willing to pick it up, I can't argue with that.

eggynack

2016-10-21, 11:07 AM

I think maybe a better way of putting what I mean is that I think this will still play at level 11 like a level 5 druid. There are no feats in the build to improve combat ability, which strikes me as odd if the plan is to be a front line combatant. I agree that this is a good build once you get the 7th level of MoMF, but it can't really do what I think jdizzlean wants it to do from levels 8-13. That is a long time to be waiting if you are actually having to play them. It isn't really giving strong combat prowess or utility between those levels.
I don't think it'd just be a 5th level druid. A 5th level druid is casting sleet storm, plant growth, blinding spittle. Direct combat spells which are then backed up by your animal companion, summons, and, if they really feel the need to join in, your party members. This character would be acting more like, say, an 11th level druid, except without spells above third level. By that I mean, with a normal druid, you tend to use the higher level slots actively and tune lower level stuff more towards long term buffs. In this build, the extra wild shape prowess is taking the place of the higher level spells, acting like your main active effort which is backed by low level buffs. A 5th level druid is relatively unlikely to cast heart of water, because that's a slot you need to use to kill something, but here that's a top level option. It's a thing working with your forms, not against them, to make you powerful. In a sense, the feats are improving combat ability. Natural spell means you can cast a bite of the werewolf or whatever right before consuming a foe, or up your resilience a ton with alter fortune. Combat is the main plan here, but magic and such is super useful at making your combat abilities better. You're not a 5th level druid. You're a wild shape expert that happens to have some useful spells.

Oh, also, vision of punishment. That's one of the natural spell targets. Direct and active spell, but the action time makes it appealing.

CWI is limited by CL, which isn't going to get high enough to make most of the things that you want to. It is probably worth speaking to the rest of the party, because you can get spells from other casters to build items. This means that CWI is probably better on the wizard and they can use your spells to build the items you want.
I think Gnaeus said about what I'd want to on this.

Edit: for reference, my MoMF build would be wild shape ranger 5 straight into MoMF 7, then start thinking. Feats for a tiger war form would be something like 1: power attack. 3: alertness. 6: multiattack. 9 leap attack. 12 improved multiattack. If you wanted to be tankier a bear or rhino war form might work better, and leap attack doesn't work quite so well with them. I might go combat expertise into improved trip on the rhino.
The feats are fine. Well, maybe less power attack. The loss of double damage really negatively impacts the numbers there. But orienting that aspect towards melee could work. My problem is with the ranger half. It seems much worse than druid as a base. And when I say much worse, I mean specifically at combat. Luminous armor upping your AC, greater magic fang making all your weapons magic and powerful, snowshoes upping your speed, all of it contributes to a character being really good at combat, and along more axes than a rangers advantages.

ace rooster

2016-10-21, 01:16 PM

Having actually now looked at the MoMF bible, it raises a completely seperate point as to why natural spell is not such a no brainer choice. There are some very good combat forms that are monsterous humanoids, (Annis Hag particularly) which do not need natural spell to cast spells. I've not looked to see how many of the spells don't have somatic components, but the MoMF speech gives all of them without natural spell.

The feats are fine. Well, maybe less power attack. The loss of double damage really negatively impacts the numbers there. But orienting that aspect towards melee could work. My problem is with the ranger half. It seems much worse than druid as a base. And when I say much worse, I mean specifically at combat. Luminous armor upping your AC, greater magic fang making all your weapons magic and powerful, snowshoes upping your speed, all of it contributes to a character being really good at combat, and along more axes than a rangers advantages.

You lose the double damage for full attacks, but as a leap attack tiger you get it back on all your 5 attacks on a charge. You can get 10x your power attack penalty in damage.

The druid spellcasting is a lot of power to sacrifice, but as you said, you would be better going full druid anyway if you were building for power. If I were playing this build I would be wanting to play it as a MoMF, and be able to almost completely neglect how I got into the class. Those abilities should fade into automatically supporting the playstyle I want without me having to micromanage them. The druid abilities do not do this. At all levels they will require considerable active management in order to make the character effective.

In contrast ranger gets you better native combat stats and an extra feat which fit more neatly into the playstyle I would want, even if it is less powerful.

It boils down to "do I want to have to keep track of my druid casting on my not druid?". Generally I would say no because I find it less fun to play. Does that make sense?

jdizzlean

2016-10-23, 09:12 AM

Do you have a particular form that you want to use that you need MoMF for? Until you get extraordinary abilities you are hard pressed to beat bear form anyway, especially as full druids can cast animal growth on themselves. The extraordinary abilities only kick in at level 12 at the earliest, so that means between level 5 and 12 MoMF doesn't really give you anything besides shapes with worse stats without any of the good bits. If you are focusing on that late utility from the extraordinary abilities from MoMF (A way to guarantee the game ends at level 11) it doesn't make sense to delay it with warshaper at all, especially as that will always mean you cannot get forms at your full HD.

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Assume supernatural ability is far more limited than you seem to think. You have to pick a single supernatural ability when you take the feat, and it gives you that one only. Works great for beholder eye rays to get the ultimate excavation tool (disintigrate eye ray), so it does have it's uses if you want to focus on something specific, but I don't think you do.

The biggest problem is that I don't think this does what you want it to. You don't get a lot of utility till quite late on, sacrifice the druid casting utility early to get it, and in combat wild shapes are not particularly tanky. You don't get the full BAB or favoured enemy of a wildshaping ranger, so you end up comparable in combat to the original creature. They typically have a CR considerably below their HD, so you will always be far less powerful than the enemies you are up against. You are not much more powerful than the creatures you can summon as a full druid even.

No, not particularly. For now I'm thinking I'll carry Fleshraker for a bit, especially w/ my animal comp being one, and us spell sharing venomfire, should be good for a good while.

With warshaper thrown in, i'll be able to add additional main attacks, and/or grow my current forms attacks to the next full level which will help on its own w/o needing to burn a feat on combat prowess. Sure those would help on top of this, but i'll explain my reasoning for that later on.

Assume Su: My understanding from reading it is I have to pick ONE ability when I assume that form, not when I choose the feat. If that's incorrect, or the DM overrules that to be ONE ability when the feat is chosen, then of course I'll dump that for something else.

As for utility, I'm going for more options, not just a face burner or face eater outright. As stated in the OP, I haven't played D&D in forever, so this approach will for me, help w/ the familiarity and re-introduce me to a broader spectrum of the game than playing a straight any-class character.

Because it's a stronger entry path. It's not like it's insanely stronger, but you get some real benefits.

As was noted, craft doesn't seem like a better druid thing at all. Natural spell is more useful in how it augments combat forms than in how it impacts combat directly. Sure, every so often you can prepare and toss out a stone shape or wind wall, but I think it's more about low action cost spells and maybe pre-combat buffs.

Probably gets there at that point. Ex abilities on all those forms is crazy. Especially once you pull in casting. Tier three is good though.

Wild shape, especially this expanded wild shape, is a lot more versatile though. Tons of immunities, attack modes, and wacky abilities, where SNA is limited to a strict list. Also, the argument from casting awesomeness still seems way too broadly applicable to be all that meaningful.

I think maybe a better way of putting what I mean is that I think this will still play at level 11 like a level 5 druid. There are no feats in the build to improve combat ability, which strikes me as odd if the plan is to be a front line combatant. I agree that this is a good build once you get the 7th level of MoMF, but it can't really do what I think jdizzlean wants it to do from levels 8-13. That is a long time to be waiting if you are actually having to play them. It isn't really giving strong combat prowess or utility between those levels.

CWI is limited by CL, which isn't going to get high enough to make most of the things that you want to. It is probably worth speaking to the rest of the party, because you can get spells from other casters to build items. This means that CWI is probably better on the wizard and they can use your spells to build the items you want.

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My group tends to do quite a bit of chit-chat w/ the locals, so there is utility in the build to sneak and peak to gather intel. Or to appear to be one of the locals w/ the changeling's innate ability, and when you throw warshaper on top of that to have more inherent threat than an unarmed humanoid would. I'm not trying to be THE BEST druid in the land, I'm trying to be the most versatile to fill in in situations.

Warshaper ranks are my combat "feats" in this build, w/ each one, my overrall face beating ability expands which frees up my feat ranks for things to augment the rest of me. So i'm not trying to be the main tank per se in those "dead levels" between 8-13, there'll be plenty of other things for me to do.

Most of the things that he wants are wildling clasps. Which he can make at level 5. Yeah, if the wizard will take it, fantastic. But the wizard may be making wands. The sorcerer rods. And the cleric armor. Or they might not care. The ability to use his gear in wild shape is worth more than any 2 feats on your list. But sure, if someone else has more free feats than you do and is willing to pick it up, I can't argue with that.

CWI is practically required if i want to have more than one thing usable in wild shape as I've pretty much been told outright I can't just go down to the local magic emporium and pick them up, which means i'm going to have to build them myself, and I'll be able to do that w/o help from someone else w/ this build. For some of the more "advanced" things, sure I might need some help w/ the spells, but I'll have the feat so that's ok.

I don't think it'd just be a 5th level druid. A 5th level druid is casting sleet storm, plant growth, blinding spittle. Direct combat spells which are then backed up by your animal companion, summons, and, if they really feel the need to join in, your party members. This character would be acting more like, say, an 11th level druid, except without spells above third level. By that I mean, with a normal druid, you tend to use the higher level slots actively and tune lower level stuff more towards long term buffs. In this build, the extra wild shape prowess is taking the place of the higher level spells, acting like your main active effort which is backed by low level buffs. A 5th level druid is relatively unlikely to cast heart of water, because that's a slot you need to use to kill something, but here that's a top level option. It's a thing working with your forms, not against them, to make you powerful. In a sense, the feats are improving combat ability. Natural spell means you can cast a bite of the werewolf or whatever right before consuming a foe, or up your resilience a ton with alter fortune. Combat is the main plan here, but magic and such is super useful at making your combat abilities better. You're not a 5th level druid. You're a wild shape expert that happens to have some useful spells.
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So sure, there's things I could do differently, but I think by and large I'll still have plenty of utility even with 2-3 glass cannons in the group who will be doing massive damage. Will I be the best spell caster at any level? Not even close. Will I be the most versatile of all, even at earlier levels? Yes. Which is really what I'm going for rather than I'm going to be THE BEST druid/momf/face eater in the world.

The MoMF bible, the Druid guidebook, these will definately help in accomplishing that.

eggynack

2016-10-23, 10:29 AM

Having actually now looked at the MoMF bible, it raises a completely seperate point as to why natural spell is not such a no brainer choice. There are some very good combat forms that are monsterous humanoids, (Annis Hag particularly) which do not need natural spell to cast spells. I've not looked to see how many of the spells don't have somatic components, but the MoMF speech gives all of them without natural spell.
Natural spell also deals with material and focus components. It's a really difficult feat to replicate at a lower, or even the same, cost.

You lose the double damage for full attacks, but as a leap attack tiger you get it back on all your 5 attacks on a charge. You can get 10x your power attack penalty in damage.
Yeah, forgot that leap attack was power attack specific. It's not like normal power attack offers an insane damage bonus though, because the attack penalty essentially reduces the average damage gained. You do get more damage, but it's not crazy. Maybe shock trooper would help.

The druid spellcasting is a lot of power to sacrifice, but as you said, you would be better going full druid anyway if you were building for power. If I were playing this build I would be wanting to play it as a MoMF, and be able to almost completely neglect how I got into the class. Those abilities should fade into automatically supporting the playstyle I want without me having to micromanage them. The druid abilities do not do this. At all levels they will require considerable active management in order to make the character effective.

In contrast ranger gets you better native combat stats and an extra feat which fit more neatly into the playstyle I would want, even if it is less powerful.

It boils down to "do I want to have to keep track of my druid casting on my not druid?". Generally I would say no because I find it less fun to play. Does that make sense?
I don't think druid base requires that much active management. At least without natural spell. You don't really have to tailor a daily list, or account for a pile of resources that's constantly shrinking. You just cast some hours/level or longer spells, and then you need only contend with the duration. Yes, it's nice to have a wacky spell list in the long term, with utility and such, but you don't need that to make it better. And, of course, all those hours/level spells don't so much require micromanagement as standard management. I think that such a character is arguably a bit more complex, but we're not talking about taking on a full on druid here. The goal here, to my mind, is the construction of the best possible master of many forms, and druid is the superior entry point for that. If, as you assert, such a character isn't sufficiently capable, then the ranger entry wouldn't be either.