Advice on a monk/warlock build

[Devirage]

Wanted some feedback on a character idea. A shadow monk that uses the darkness spell on himself (or his armor if it can only be cast on an object). Any enemies around him would have the blinded effect while in the darkness for advantage on attacks and disadvantage on attacks against him. He would get at least 2 levels in warlock for the devil's sight invocation to see in it and the sentinel feat to prevent escape from the darkened area.

The obvious drawback is having to get 13 charisma to multiclass in warlock and less in other stats for the early levels.

[CaptainSarathai]

The dip isn't worth it just for that effect, especially when you remember that Darkness will also affect any allies caught in the radius.
Darkness+ Devil's Sight is a fun "on paper" optimization option, but in play it just makes everyone else angry.

[Herobizkit]

It's a decent enough trick. I wouldn't pull it all the time, else your DM will start coming up with clever ways to deal with it. ^_^

13 Cha isn't so bad, especially if you take a race that bumps Cha. You'd only need an 11, say, if you were a Tiefling or a Half-Elf.

Could also go Dragonborn and say you were the product of a Shadow Dragon (+1 Cha), or a Drow (also +1 Cha). :3

[Specter]

It's worth it more for Hex than anything else. At Monk 5/Warlock 1, you can attack four times, each of those with an extra d6 (with 18DEX, that's 44avg dmg if all four hit). Devil's Sight is good for a race lacking darkvision, but will annoy others as said before.

Another option is Magic Initiate for Hex and some utility cantrips. Once a day, but hey, no CHA involved.

[Biggstick]

The 13 Cha and the Warlock dip are already costing you quite a bit in regards to ASI's. If you don't take the Warlock to level 4 at least, you're down to 4 ASI's total. As others have mentioned, Darkness tends to make the party angry, so standing on the big bad "locking" him/her down with the Darkness + Sentinel sounds great, but it's tough in a group setting. Accepting that you can provide hit and run tactics with the Darkness might be a better route (targets have to be able to see you to make opportunity attacks against you, which Darkness prevents). You're also going to run into the situation down the road where eventually the things you're fighting have True Sight, and that vision doesn't care about your Darkness. You're then stuck in a situation where you have to decide on your in character knowledge of True Sight or if you're going to meta game to "help the party."

TLDR; If you're going with hit and run tactics, the Devil's Sight combination works great. Go with Half Elf and sit at 13 Cha. You're ASI starved as it is, and picking up Sentinel isn't nearly as important as maxing Dex or Wis.

Edit:

Although I think you'd be suffering if you did so, you could actually run a lower Wisdom on a Monk and not worry about maxing it out as long as you took the Warlock Invocation that grants you Mage Armor. While this would lower your end game AC, it gets you to 18 AC faster (Shadow Monk 8 // Warlock 2). Wisdom is useful, but it doesn't really help you out as much on a Shadow Monk compared to the other archetypes (you only really need like a 12 or 14 Wisdom with this train of thought).

While Wisdom will still serve a use for you, this sacrifice on the Invocation side opens up your ASI choices later on. It does leave you with a bit less AC, but a Monk is already a pretty squishy character imo. You shouldn't ever be getting seen in the first place.

For those of you clamoring about Stunning Fist. Because I know you're out there. I've only ever seen this ability stick to an important thing one time, ever. Strangely enough I've played with a few Monks in my games, and most of the bigger things we're fighting have a decent Con save. Unless you're someone that can max out that Wisdom early enough, I haven't seen things fail the Con Save often enough for me to count on it in combat. This is the main reason I'm ok with throwing up the possibility of using a lower Wisdom as long as the OP picks up the Mage Armor Invocation from Warlock 2.

[CaptainSarathai]

It's worth it more for Hex than anything else. At Monk 5/Warlock 2, you can attack four times, each of those with an extra d6. Devil's Sight is good for arace lacking darkvision, but will annoy others as said before.

True, and depending how many levels you wanna nab, you can be a halfway decent BladeLock if you take FiendPact and PAM/WC.

A Tiefling as fiend-pact Warlock, Monk would be pretty cool just for RP, but you also get:
Free Darkness via race
Thaumaturgy is the coolest thing on a Warlock EVER, trust me, I go Tome for it.

Less-MAD BladeLock with PAM functions

Eldritch Blast shenanigans - "Kongraturations, you Goku nao"

Extra Attack with the Dexy quarterstaff, Bonus Action Attack if you aren't punching their pressure-points.
You can eventually add your Cha to damage with the Staff hits.

Hex, for +d6 damage per hit. You can also pick up Bestow Curse once per long rest, and that's +d8 per hit. You can add the two together at 10th level, casting BC as a 5th level spell requires no Concentration

TempHP on kills, TempHP at-will, TempHP that damages idiots who hit you... etc
--
Another fun trick for Darkness shenanigans:
Bump your Wis reasonably high and nab Spell Sniper, learning Vine Whip from the Druid list.
You could also do this with a TomeLock, but whatever.
Taking a level or 2 in Fighter is fun. Get the Tunnel Fighter Style from UA.
Sentinel or Warcaster is optional but highly recommended

With Vine Whip, you can now yank people into the Darkness sphere. Here, use Tunnel Fighter to keep smacking anyone who tries to escape your inky prison, paired with either Sentinel to lock them in place, or Warcaster and the Booming Blade cantrip to make sure they don't move far.


Surrounded! Raziel the Cleric rushed to her Dwarven ally, brought low by the first volley of red-fletched arrows. Kurga the Barbarian flew into a rage and charged the the tightening ring of Rebrand thugs, human and Goliath blood flowed freely as the savage warrior fought to sell his life dearly. Sennoa the Ranger loosed her panther companion, and let fly three unerring bolts with her crossbow.

It was no hope, they were outnumbered, and soon to be overrun. In the middle of the clearing, Aur Al'zun whipped off the heavy cloak that had barely hidden the infernal features of his race. His body was naked to the waist, and covered in swirling black tattoos. He held only a plain, ebonwood staff. But none of this distracted from the cold glint of raw, gleeful, malevolence in his eyes. And then he began the chanting, low, formless, guttural sounds like nothing spoken by mortal tongues,
"Aauraaaaaaauuuummmaauuunaaaaau..."
The tattoos on his skin came alive, swirling and twisting until they raised from his body like writhing snakes, wrapping in upon themselves and gradually choking the light from the center of the clearing in an expanding, billowing cloud of pure darkness.

The fighting seemed to halt, adventurers and bandits alike too awestruck by the alarming Eldritch display. Suddenly, something (a tentacle?) lashed out from the darkness to grasp a bandit by the throat, jerking him into the black abyss where Raziel knew Aur Al'zun lay in wait.

A piercing scream echoed through the clearing.
The chanting, never stopped.
The bandits dropped their weapons and ran for their lives.
Faster still, the tentacles flashed out again, and dragged two more shrieking victims into the darkness.

Raziel could swear she heard peals of thunder, and saw flashes of eldritch-green lightning in the deepest center of the roiling dark, but she dared not look too long.
Whatever fate befell those who found themselves lost in the swirling cloud was probably best left to question.
But whatever Aur Al'zun did within that infernal veil -
It never left any bodies...

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Yes, it's a really good option and I'm currently doing that with a shadow monk/fiend warlock/assassin.

When people say darkenss will bug others in the party, that's only if you let it, you don't have to be a hindrance to the party. For example: You cast Darkness on some item that you wear and go in and do your hits with advantage and then move away from the target, taking Darkness off of them. You can easily do this after every attack because they can't take AoO on you if they can't see you.

Another option is to go Warlock level 3 and take Pact of the Chain. You can then have an Imp familiar (who has Devil's Sight just like you) that can carry around a pebble that you cast Darkness on. Now you have mobile Darkness that is independent of your location or movement. Pretty darn nice.

There's no reason that Darkness should be a hindrance to the rest of the party if you move it in and out of the right places.

[Naanomi]

It's viable (I like rogue levels in there as well) but a bit MAD. If you really want to you can leave wisdom low and use Armor of Shadows to compensate. Monk 6/Warlock 2/Rogue 12 or something (not in that order per se). A half-elf could be 9/16/16/8/13/13

[CursedRhubarb]

Bladelock would mesh well with monk since you can leave Cha low. Never need armor, never need to carry a weapon unless you want darts for ranged.

With a Half-Elf and using standard scores, stats could start at:

Str - 8
Dex - 16 (+1)
Con - 14 (+1)
Int - 10
Wis - 14
Cha - 14 (+2)

Background of Pirate (Sailor variant) for Athletics and Perception (+prof helps overcome weak Str score)

Go Monk 5, first ASI for +2 Wis, then after you have Extra Attack go Warlock 3 for Blade pact. Then back to Monk for the rest. ASI then to pump Dex then Wis.

Myself, I would go GOO for the telepathy rather than Fiend for a possible +5 thp only if you get the killing blow. Won't be enough or happen often enough to matter by that level.

Invocations:
Beguiling Influence
Either Mask of Many Faces or Eyes of the Rune Keeper

Spells:
Cantrips - Prestidigitation, Mage Hand
L1- Hex
L2- Mirror Image, Spider Climb, Invisibility
Mostly utility but Hex makes for a nice burn.

With Cha kept low I would avoid save or attack spells. Also, I skipped EB since, yes it gets up to 4 beams at 1d10, with low Cha the chance to hit with it makes throwing two darts for 1d8+Dex a better option to me since they are much more likely to hit.

[poolio]

I'm doing this exact build for the exact reasons in my current game lol

Didn't think about tsking sentinel though, that's something i might have to work that in there somewhere,

He's from a clan of ninjas and took the scroll containing the clans secrets to power over shadows, it's just how I'm flavoring it to make sense why he'd dip into warlock :smalltongue:

And as far as teammates who can't see into the murder ball, mine don't seem to mind, they hang outside it, killing whatever isn't in it, then wait for anything that comes out of it to beat on, they don't have to worry about at least one or two guys in a fight for a bit, i create a distraction to allow for buffs and/or heals, and most of the time they don't take any damage, which they always appreciate :smallwink:

It's a fun "Mystical ninja" kind of build, especially with the cantrips, and at will silent image, using that like a shadow clone sort of thing (my dm is trying to figure out how i could use it in battle)

I'm gonna miss this build when we finish the campaign.

[PeteNutButter]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with everyone here. Monk/warlock is not that strong. It might feel good in practice (due to the warlock's versatility), but in reality there is very little actual synergy. There is no incentive to take monk over any other multiclass with warlock.

Yes shadow monks can cast darkness, but not see in it. Devil's sight allows them to see in it. But warlocks already can cast darkness. There is no benefit to multiclass to pick up a spell already on your list.

Hex does go well with a monk's many attacks, but so does Hunter's Mark. Hunter's Mark comes on a class that has the same MC requirements as monk.

Ultimately you'll be either weaker monk, due to the MADness, with either less AC, HPs, stunning strike DC etc, or a weaker bladelock than you would be if you just went fighter instead. Taking half elf to reduce the MADness is basically a feat tax, since there is no real benefit for your racial darkvision, you should have been a variant human (But you can't because you're too MAD).

Then there is the issue of delayed progression. Due you take warlock to 4 so you're not behind on ASIs?

Pick any class that doesn't have an int or wis requirement and you'll do mostly the same things, without being MAD.

All that being said if you just want to be a shadow ninja, then forgot all this, because it's just f***ing cool.

[CursedRhubarb]

Taking half elf to reduce the MADness is basically a feat tax, since there is no real benefit for your racial darkvision, you should have been a variant human

Such racism! Or would that be speciesism? :P

But in seriousness, I avoided both warlock darkness and devil's sight in the example build I used earlier to avoid some of the overlap. Can still monk-cast darkness and it's great for hindering ranged mobs, but I figured there could be better uses of the Lock's resources.

[poolio]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with everyone here. Monk/warlock is not that strong. It might feel good in practice (due to the warlock's versatility), but in reality there is very little actual synergy. There is no incentive to take monk over any other multiclass with warlock.

Yes shadow monks can cast darkness, but not see in it. Devil's sight allows them to see in it. But warlocks already can cast darkness. There is no benefit to multiclass to pick up a spell already on your list.

Hex does go well with a monk's many attacks, but so does Hunter's Mark. Hunter's Mark comes on a class that has the same MC requirements as monk.

Ultimately you'll be either weaker monk, due to the MADness, with either less AC, HPs, stunning strike DC etc, or a weaker bladelock than you would be if you just went fighter instead. Taking half elf to reduce the MADness is basically a feat tax, since there is no real benefit for your racial darkvision, you should have been a variant human (But you can't because you're too MAD).

Then there is the issue of delayed progression. Due you take warlock to 4 so you're not behind on ASIs?

Pick any class that doesn't have an int or wis requirement and you'll do mostly the same things, without being MAD.

All that being said if you just want to be a shadow ninja, then forgot all this, because it's just f***ing cool.

As cursedrhubarb said, you don't have to take darkness again, there's plenty of other choices, and you're not to MAD if you don't take a bunch of spells that don't require saves or attack rolls,.

And Hunters mark specifies weapon attacks, whete as Hex just says attacks, plus Hex has the better secondary effect, Hunters just gives better tracking chances should the enemy manage to get away, disadvantage on an ability check seems a good bit more useful to me :smalltongue:

[PeteNutButter]

As cursedrhubarb said, you don't have to take darkness again, there's plenty of other choices, and you're not to MAD if you don't take a bunch of spells that don't require saves or attack rolls,.

And Hunters mark specifies weapon attacks, where as Hex just says attacks, plus Hex has the better secondary effect, Hunters just gives better tracking chances should the enemy manage to get away, disadvantage on an ability check seems a good bit more useful to me :smalltongue:

The 13 cha alone is still MAD when its slapped onto the class most needing ASIs. That's 5 points in point buy, 3 if half elf (which again makes it a feat tax). Either way at least one of your core stats dex, con, wis is suffering. A human monk can start with 3 16s if they take a half feat or two 16s a 14 con and another 10. No matter how you slice it the monk/warlock ends up with weaker stats.

I would definitely avoid taking the same spell, so you aren't doubling up, but I wasn't just talking about doubling up. A warlock getting darkness from monk is like a ranger multiclassing into paladin 2 for cure wounds... Cure wounds is on his list already. A warlock doesn't need monk to cast darkness. He can cast it and see in it sooner by himself. It's taking more levels to accomplish something that another single class can accomplish in less. Multiclassing should add to a build, not do something a single class can accomplish faster.

Hex does have the better secondary effect, but the Hunter's Mark will do the same thing like 90% of the time on a monk. Unless you're sun soul it doesn't matter that hunter's mark doesn't work on spells. It works on weapon attacks, which yes includes unarmed strikes (*shrugs*). The only benefit you'll see with hex is if someone in the party does a fair bit of contested checks, like shove and grapple, or if you catch them unaware and already have hex up. You could move hex to the foe and give them disadvantage on initiative. Other than those minor things you'll be rocking either more hit points, more AC, higher stun DC, etc if you dumped cha to start.

[CursedRhubarb]

I'm guessing Pete prefers to go with the 15,15,15,8,8,8 split. I'm not familiar with half-feats though, no luck finding anything by that wording in the book unless I've missed it, and feats are all or nothing. No cherry-picking the parts you want from them and skipping parts you don't want.

The min/max split may make you more "optimized" for combat, but that's only 1/3 of the game or less. I'm guessing you would put a 15 in Dex, Con, and Wis, using the vhuman's two +1s to two of those and the feat would be one with a +1 to the other?

This could give you good combat stats from the go, but for the other 2/3 or more of the game you will be pretty useless or a hindrance to the party with having three -1 modifiers. Depending on your DM, you can't even read. (Some rule an Int of <10 = can't read or write).

May be a slightly stronger fighter but with a -1 on Str, Int, and Cha they will kinda look like they are wandering around lost and dribbling drool on themselves. The party won't be able to let them go anywhere without their safety buddy and a helmet. (Peasants have flat 10s across the board. The character is literally, weaker, dumber, and less likeable than the guy picking his nose and eating it in the pub)

[Biggstick]

The 13 cha alone is still MAD when its slapped onto the class most needing ASIs. That's 5 points in point buy, 3 if half elf (which again makes it a feat tax). Either way at least one of your core stats dex, con, wis is suffering. A human monk can start with 3 16s if they take a half feat or two 16s a 14 con and another 10. No matter how you slice it the monk/warlock ends up with weaker stats.

I would definitely avoid taking the same spell, so you aren't doubling up, but I wasn't just talking about doubling up. A warlock getting darkness from monk is like a ranger multiclassing into paladin 2 for cure wounds... Cure wounds is on his list already. A warlock doesn't need monk to cast darkness. He can cast it and see in it sooner by himself. It's taking more levels to accomplish something that another single class can accomplish in less. Multiclassing should add to a build, not do something a single class can accomplish faster.

Hex does have the better secondary effect, but the Hunter's Mark will do the same thing like 90% of the time on a monk. Unless you're sun soul it doesn't matter that hunter's mark doesn't work on spells. It works on weapon attacks, which yes includes unarmed strikes (*shrugs*). The only benefit you'll see with hex is if someone in the party does a fair bit of contested checks, like shove and grapple, or if you catch them unaware and already have hex up. You could move hex to the foe and give them disadvantage on initiative. Other than those minor things you'll be rocking either more hit points, more AC, higher stun DC, etc if you dumped cha to start.

Hex, Invisibility, and Hellish Rebuke are all great spells on the Warlock spell list. You can easily grab another spell for whatever flavor you're looking for. In fact, you could pick up Darkness here just so that you can use your Ki points for something else. It's really just dependent on what you want to use your resources for to be honest. Would you rather use Ki points on combat or spell slots? Both come back on a short rest, and not being limited to only Ki points for a spell increases your ability to utilize that Darkness.

The Monk/Warlock at PC level 8 (Shadow Monk 6 // Warlock 2) can teleport at the cost of a bonus action every turn of combat without limit into any sort of darkness in the game. An intelligent player can use this to game breaking capabilities. If the PC goes Half Elf, picks up the Elf weapon training (for Long Bow/Short Bow), picks up Spider Climb from the Warlock spell list, they could cause a ton of problems inside any enclosed area full of darkness (rafters of a throne room, underground cavern, etc).

The Warlock levels on top of the Shadow Monk levels are there to truly take advantage of the Shadow Monk's ability to teleport in the Darkness. Unless one rolls for stats though, the only race pulling it off "effectively" and starting with 16's in primary stats is the Half Elf/Human.

[PeteNutButter]

I'm guessing Pete prefers to go with the 15,15,15,8,8,8 split. I'm not familiar with half-feats though, no luck finding anything by that wording in the book unless I've missed it, and feats are all or nothing. No cherry-picking the parts you want from them and skipping parts you don't want.

The min/max split may make you more "optimized" for combat, but that's only 1/3 of the game or less. I'm guessing you would put a 15 in Dex, Con, and Wis, using the vhuman's two +1s to two of those and the feat would be one with a +1 to the other?

This could give you good combat stats from the go, but for the other 2/3 or more of the game you will be pretty useless or a hindrance to the party with having three -1 modifiers. Depending on your DM, you can't even read. (Some rule an Int of <10 = can't read or write).

May be a slightly stronger fighter but with a -1 on Str, Int, and Cha they will kinda look like they are wandering around lost and dribbling drool on themselves. The party won't be able to let them go anywhere without their safety buddy and a helmet. (Peasants have flat 10s across the board. The character is literally, weaker, dumber, and less likeable than the guy picking his nose and eating it in the pub)

By half feat, people mean the feats that have an effect and then also give +1 to a stat. So yes for a monk I'd prefer either the 3 16s and 3 8s or two 16s, a 14, a 10, and 2 8s. You are greatly exaggerating the 8s in off stats. An 8 is just 5% worse at things. So you are a little dumber at book smarts, a little stand offish in social situations, and can't bench as much weight. You'll never be the party face, so you don't need cha. You'll never be the party knowledge guy so you don't need the int. You don't even wear armor, so its not like you're worried about how much you can carry. If your DM is homebrewing further penalties on you then that is an issue with your DM, not character optimization.

You will not be useless 2/3 of the time. You'd just have a 5% worse chance at succeeding something that you aren't naturally good at. So let the barbarian do the heavy lifting, and let the bard do the talking. Occasionally you will be forced to do something that isn't your specialty, but that 5% isn't worth it on the occasional, when compared to the many boosts a higher core stat would give. Pay attention to how many times in a session a character rolls something that adds a core stat to compared to how often he rolls on an off stat. For the monk, every attack roll, every damage roll, every stealth roll, and every attack against him is affected by his dex.

Specialization is what makes a party great. If you avoid any negative stats on a MAD build like a monk/warlock you'll be considerably weak. 10, 16, 12, 10, 14, 14 is about the best you can get. You'll have 1 less AC than a monk with 16 wisdom, and get 33% less hit points per level than a monk with a 16 con.


Hex, Invisibility, and Hellish Rebuke are all great spells on the Warlock spell list. You can easily grab another spell for whatever flavor you're looking for. In fact, you could pick up Darkness here just so that you can use your Ki points for something else. It's really just dependent on what you want to use your resources for to be honest. Would you rather use Ki points on combat or spell slots? Both come back on a short rest, and not being limited to only Ki points for a spell increases your ability to utilize that Darkness.

The Monk/Warlock at PC level 8 (Shadow Monk 6 // Warlock 2) can teleport at the cost of a bonus action every turn of combat without limit into any sort of darkness in the game. An intelligent player can use this to game breaking capabilities. If the PC goes Half Elf, picks up the Elf weapon training (for Long Bow/Short Bow), picks up Spider Climb from the Warlock spell list, they could cause a ton of problems inside any enclosed area full of darkness (rafters of a throne room, underground cavern, etc).

The Warlock levels on top of the Shadow Monk levels are there to truly take advantage of the Shadow Monk's ability to teleport in the Darkness. Unless one rolls for stats though, the only race pulling it off "effectively" and starting with 16's in primary stats is the Half Elf/Human.

A shadow monk can already do that without the warlock levels. If there is a large area that is dark or even dimly lit, he can pop around it. Darkness spell is only 15ft radius. If its on your person, it's not letting you teleport anywhere you can't either walk or jump to. It's also concentration so you won't be spider climbing with it up. And shadow step costs your bonus action which is either a third of your DPR or half if you want to flurry.

You'll be taking 6 levels in a class so that you can do what is essentially take a misty step at potential double range, but only under the condition that you and it are dimly lit or dark. You can spend an action, an some resource to make at least your destination or yourself in darkness. Then once you get there you do ranged attacks for ~1d8+4 damage, completely negating your entire class's offensive kit. I'll give it cool points, but all it really does is ensure that foes will be killing your party instead of you. Dealing 17 average damage a round at level 8 assuming you hit twice is not a real threat to an appropriate CR.

A fighter/warlock could do the same thing with misty step, without requiring things in darkness. Have +2 to hit and probably SS feat and BM moves making him a real threat. And he wouldn't be MAD. A straight warlock can do basically the same thing but with Eldritch Blast and have 4th level spells. I just don't see what the monk/warlock does that other builds can't do better.

Playing Night Crawler is cool, but it'll rarely be the biggest help to the team.

[Foxhound438]

I recommend non-variant human. Stats can end up 9/16/14/9/16/13 at 1st level.

Definitely not a fan of the darkness plan, but in any case hex is very good- even going monk x/ warlock 1 for 1/short rest hex is very good, and lets you have your 5 ASI's.

[CursedRhubarb]

Specialization is what makes a party great. If you avoid any negative stats on a MAD build like a monk/warlock you'll be considerably weak. 10, 16, 12, 10, 14, 14 is about the best you can get. You'll have 1 less AC than a monk with 16 wisdom, and get 33% less hit points per level than a monk with a 16 con.


If you look at the example build I posted the starting stats were 8,16,14,10,14,14. I picked a background that would enhance a main stat and makes the dump stat not make you a liability when it's needed.

I also only went 3 lvls into lock to get the blade pact then the rest is all monk so the monk becomes your main thing.

Not needing armor or carrying a weapon help a lot with carrying capacity and 8 Str can be a logistic nightmare at times. Especially with the rarity of magic items meaning a Bag of Holding is not a guarantee to ever be found. (DM: "You find 12,000 copper coins" 8str guy "well f--k, my share is 60lbs, that's half my carry for just copper coins in one fight.")(this happened to me in the last game >.< Have to hope the barbarian doesn't steal or eat any of the stuff I had to load onto his pack)

The difference of a 14 con and 16 con is 1hp/level. The roll of the die will affect that more than 1hp and if 1 hp is a 33% difference you have bigger issues than worrying about being a bit MAD. The Monk has a d8 hit die. The only way 1hp i s a 33% difference is if you roll a 1 on the die every single time and then at lvl 20, after both rolling a 1 for 19 levels it would finally be 33% more hp than the other. Or if the 16 con monk rolls high everytime and the 14 con monk rolls low everytime.

Having some Cha makes sense for the class. Shadow Monk is like a ninja. How many cartoons or movies have there been where the ninja is almost found but gets mistaken for a statue or prop, only to sneak away or make the hit once ignored? That would be a Deception or Performance roll. Both are Cha.

The 1AC difference is why I suggested Mirror Image. It will help a lot in melee and with bounded accuracy I've found AC to be a total crap shoot and not even really matter much at all. I've seen people with 20-24 AC get hit every single turn by a friggin Kobold. Evasion methods are where it's at and the monk/lock can offer that. Can others? Yes. Do they sound as cool? No.

Main use I would see a shadow monk using the darkness ability would be to hinder ranged or casters in combat or more likely out of combat to use the teleport ability in places they normally wouldn't be able to since it requires darkness or shadows in both locations to use. If where you are or where you need to be isn't dark you can't use it. So darkness only requires one spot to be dark. It's also class fluff and not even the main reason most would want to play the mix.

[Biggstick]

A shadow monk can already do that without the warlock levels. If there is a large area that is dark or even dimly lit, he can pop around it. Darkness spell is only 15ft radius. If its on your person, it's not letting you teleport anywhere you can't either walk or jump to. It's also concentration so you won't be spider climbing with it up. And shadow step costs your bonus action which is either a third of your DPR or half if you want to flurry.

You'll be taking 6 levels in a class so that you can do what is essentially take a misty step at potential double range, but only under the condition that you and it are dimly lit or dark. You can spend an action, an some resource to make at least your destination or yourself in darkness. Then once you get there you do ranged attacks for ~1d8+4 damage, completely negating your entire class's offensive kit. I'll give it cool points, but all it really does is ensure that foes will be killing your party instead of you. Dealing 17 average damage a round at level 8 assuming you hit twice is not a real threat to an appropriate CR.

A fighter/warlock could do the same thing with misty step, without requiring things in darkness. Have +2 to hit and probably SS feat and BM moves making him a real threat. And he wouldn't be MAD. A straight warlock can do basically the same thing but with Eldritch Blast and have 4th level spells. I just don't see what the monk/warlock does that other builds can't do better.

Playing Night Crawler is cool, but it'll rarely be the biggest help to the team.

I'm not really sure what kind of DM's you play with, but mine have a tendency to utilize magical Darkness that can't be seen through with standard darkvision. I'm not saying every bit of shadow we encounter is magical Darkness, but it does come up on occasion. Being a Shadow Monk and being unable to really utilize the Darkness (or see in it for that matter) doesn't really fit the feel a lot of players are looking for when playing a Shadow Monk. You also don't have to put the Darkness on your person if you're in a place that already has darkness or shadows in it; obviously both Spider Climbing and Darkness require concentration, hence why my example were places that would most likely have shadows in them already.

I'm not sure if you realize, but Monk isn't a huge DPR class. Shadow Monks in particular are more focused on their ability to dart around the battle field to find an advantage. I'm not saying the other archetypes also don't like to dart around, just that Shadow does even more so. If you're utilizing ranged attacks as a Monk, there is probably a reason you're doing so. You're trying to find an opportune moment to get to the back line and/or take out the key target. You're not worried about the mooks that your allies can handle. You trust them to take those targets out while you skirt the edge of battle looking for that one target. Your allies trust you as the Shadow Monk to take out the one key target while they handle the mooks. You talk about DPR and damage like it's the only thing that matters. Let me ask you, do a majority of your games play out as Combat as Sport or Combat as War? It sounds like your games are Combat as Sport, as you don't seem to value combat utility above raw DPR.

Both your examples of Fighter/Warlock and straight Warlock are limited in the number of times they can Misty Step per short/long rest. A Shadow Monk is only limited by presence of shadows and bonus action availability.

Playing Night Crawler is most definitely cool. If you can't recognize the utility (thus increased team power) having a Night Crawler on the team brings, then I guess we can just agree to disagree.

[PeteNutButter]

If you look at the example build I posted the starting stats were 8,16,14,10,14,14. I picked a background that would enhance a main stat and makes the dump stat not make you a liability when it's needed.
I also only went 3 lvls into lock to get the blade pact then the rest is all monk so the monk becomes your main thing.

Why pick up blade pact? Seems pretty useless on a monk IMO. Your fists are magic weapons after 6 and you don't need weapons at all. I'd go tome.



The difference of a 14 con and 16 con is 1hp/level. The roll of the die will affect that more than 1hp and if 1 hp is a 33% difference you have bigger issues than worrying about being a bit MAD. The Monk has a d8 hit die. The only way 1hp i s a 33% difference is if you roll a 1 on the die every single time and then at lvl 20, after both rolling a 1 for 19 levels it would finally be 33% more hp than the other. Or if the 16 con monk rolls high everytime and the 14 con monk rolls low everytime.

I was referencing the difference between a 12 and a 16 con. It isn't so bad if its a 14. Using the standard rule of 5 hp per level for a d8 hit die, the 12 con monk only has 6 hp per level. The 16 con monk has 8. 6*1.3333 etc = 8 > a 33% increase over the 12 con.



Having some Cha makes sense for the class. Shadow Monk is like a ninja. How many cartoons or movies have there been where the ninja is almost found but gets mistaken for a statue or prop, only to sneak away or make the hit once ignored? That would be a Deception or Performance roll. Both are Cha.



The 1AC difference is why I suggested Mirror Image. It will help a lot in melee and with bounded accuracy I've found AC to be a total crap shoot and not even really matter much at all. I've seen people with 20-24 AC get hit every single turn by a friggin Kobold. Evasion methods are where it's at and the monk/lock can offer that. Can others? Yes. Do they sound as cool? No.

Main use I would see a shadow monk using the darkness ability would be to hinder ranged or casters in combat or more likely out of combat to use the teleport ability in places they normally wouldn't be able to since it requires darkness or shadows in both locations to use. If where you are or where you need to be isn't dark you can't use it. So darkness only requires one spot to be dark. It's also class fluff and not even the main reason most would want to play the mix.[/QUOTE]

That's a good point. I'm not sure how it'd go over in game, but it'd probably be one of the two cha based skills.


I'm not really sure what kind of DM's you play with, but mine have a tendency to utilize magical Darkness that can't be seen through with standard darkvision. I'm not saying every bit of shadow we encounter is magical Darkness, but it does come up on occasion. Being a Shadow Monk and being unable to really utilize the Darkness (or see in it for that matter) doesn't really fit the feel a lot of players are looking for when playing a Shadow Monk. You also don't have to put the Darkness on your person if you're in a place that already has darkness or shadows in it; obviously both Spider Climbing and Darkness require concentration, hence why my example were places that would most likely have shadows in them already.

It certainly depends on the campaign. In things like OotA, magical darkness is quite common. I agree that shadow monk's should be able to see in darkness. It feels like an oversight that they can't, especially with MCing being an optional rule. My opinion is simply that trying to fix it by giving them warlock levels ends up making them a worse monk.



I'm not sure if you realize, but Monk isn't a huge DPR class. Shadow Monks in particular are more focused on their ability to dart around the battle field to find an advantage. I'm not saying the other archetypes also don't like to dart around, just that Shadow does even more so. If you're utilizing ranged attacks as a Monk, there is probably a reason you're doing so. You're trying to find an opportune moment to get to the back line and/or take out the key target. You're not worried about the mooks that your allies can handle. You trust them to take those targets out while you skirt the edge of battle looking for that one target. Your allies trust you as the Shadow Monk to take out the one key target while they handle the mooks. You talk about DPR and damage like it's the only thing that matters. Let me ask you, do a majority of your games play out as Combat as Sport or Combat as War? It sounds like your games are Combat as Sport, as you don't seem to value combat utility above raw DPR.

Monk's tend to fall off in DPR beyond mid levels, which only makes it more crucial that they don't dump half their DPR by popping about, when they could just walk about.

I play a fair mixture of both style games. Lately probably about 2/3rds AL, which is pretty much combat as sport. In combat it comes down to you either being able to dish damage, take it, or get out of the fight. In combat as war games the getting out becomes more important. In those games the shadow monk becomes stronger.

Your idea of a shadow monk strategy just sounds like what most of the party should be doing. If there is a big threat on the battlefield shouldn't it be the focus of everyone? Like those in the that party that are good at DPR.

The only one on the mooks should be the tank. The other 3-5 should be dishing out damage and control to the biggest threats.



Both your examples of Fighter/Warlock and straight Warlock are limited in the number of times they can Misty Step per short/long rest. A Shadow Monk is only limited by presence of shadows and bonus action availability.

Playing Night Crawler is most definitely cool. If you can't recognize the utility (thus increased team power) having a Night Crawler on the team brings, then I guess we can just agree to disagree.

True, he is just limited if he has to supply the darkness. I agree that it's very cool and can come up to be very useful. 9/10 times you are just leaving the party to carry your weight if you willful neglect doing half of your potential DPR.

In reality, I see it as mostly just a panic button. Something you do when you have to GTFO, which is great, but not worth building a character around.