Having LA count as Character Levels?

[SangoProduction]

It's a fairly universal opinion that most of the things that provide LA are not worth it unless you're going a melee build, and even then only a few are worth it.

So, if they counted as character levels (granting skill point cap, feats, ability score increases, etc), then what would happen?

[Troacctid]

Then they'd be more powerful.

[Venger]

It's a fairly universal opinion that most of the things that provide LA are not worth it unless you're going a melee build, and even then only a few are worth it.

So, if they counted as character levels (granting skill point cap, feats, ability score increases, etc), then what would happen?

what exactly do you mean by "etc"? that's pretty important here. do you mean treating them like monster HD? if you do that how do you determine what's a class skill? does it grant HD? BA? there's a lot of stuff that comes from taking another level, and LA doesn't get any of it, which is part of why it's usually not the best choice for a character

[georgie_leech]

what exactly do you mean by "etc"? that's pretty important here. do you mean treating them like monster HD? if you do that how do you determine what's a class skill? does it grant HD? BA? there's a lot of stuff that comes from taking another level, and LA doesn't get any of it, which is part of why it's usually not the best choice for a character

Using a Fighter 1 with a LA+1 race, I think they mean that the LA doesn't provide anything on its own, but make said Fighter count as level 2 for the purposes of things that care about it. Like, they would gain 8+4*INTMod skill points as normal, but could put up to 5 ranks in a skill. They could wield some theoretical magic weapon that required you to not be a first level character. That sort of thing.

[Fouredged Sword]

There are several ways to read this.

Do you mean removing LA and replacing it with racial HD of some variety based on the LA you are replacing? If so LA will range from being not very useful to being really really good. You have the floor of being roughly as useful as a fighter level.

Do you mean simply raising the caps on everything based on your LA? If so, it is slightly better than the standard but still pretty bad most of the time. Saves and HP are some of the major things you lose out on and they hurt pretty bad.

[awa]

as a general statement it helps particularly for things like undead being turned where the high LA makes them super vulnerable. I think it would be pretty hard to break the game with this the bonus is pretty small.

[SangoProduction]

Using a Fighter 1 with a LA+1 race, I think they mean that the LA doesn't provide anything on its own, but make said Fighter count as level 2 for the purposes of things that care about it. Like, they would gain 8+4*INTMod skill points as normal, but could put up to 5 ranks in a skill. They could wield some theoretical magic weapon that required you to not be a first level character. That sort of thing.

Yeah. This.

[The Viscount]

It wouldn't be enough to discourage people from taking things with LA. A big downside to LA is not having the HD actually providing skill points, health and saves. For front line types, they'd miss the BA, and casters would miss their spells. Everyone would miss their class features, so I doubt it would change much.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Replacing LA with commoner levels isn't great, and this is worse than that, so it's also not great. RHD, on the other hand, makes outsiders (almost) love their LA, especially the casting ones.

[Troacctid]

Well the main beneficiaries are presumably going to be standalone prestige classes like Ur-Priest, Chameleon, Sublime Chord, and so on, because they can now take templates without losing any caster levels. Non-caster prestige classes would also be more willing to take templates if they aren't sacrificing on-time entry—you might see more Ironsoul Forgemasters going for Mineral Warrior or Mulhorandi Divine Minion, for example.

[SethoMarkus]

Generally it is the lack of spell progression that makes them a bad choice. Making the changes you suggest would certainly make it more appealing for a melee/non-caster build, though. I'm not sure if it would really change anything overall, though. Just give it a boost.

[SangoProduction]

So, what I'm getting is it's not going to blow anything out of the water?

[Troacctid]

Probably not, mainly because most LA options are just so bad to begin with. But I also don't really get what you'd be trying to accomplish with the change. All of the trap options (like half-dragons, drow, tieflings, half-celestials, etc.) are still going to be traps. It's probably just going to end up being a marginal buff for a few marginal options that aren't especially iconic and were already sorta-kinda-viable, like Marrulurk, Goliath, Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched, Mulhorandi Divine Minion, Half-Fey, and Saint.

[SangoProduction]

Probably not, mainly because most LA options are just so bad to begin with. But I also don't really get what you'd be trying to accomplish with the change. All of the trap options (like half-dragons, drow, tieflings, half-celestials, etc.) are still going to be traps. It's probably just going to end up being a marginal buff for a few marginal options that aren't especially iconic and were already sorta-kinda-viable, like Marrulurk, Goliath, Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched, Mulhorandi Divine Minion, Half-Fey, and Saint.

I'm not trying to accomplish anything. My DM implemented it.

[Troacctid]

If I were looking to playtest this change, a few builds I might experiment with to take advantage of it might include:
Marrulurk Ur-Priest
Marrulurk Swordsage
Gloura Sublime Chord
Shadow Creature Assassin
Phrenic Creature Chameleon
Various melee builds with Lolth-Touched or Mineral Warrior

Oh, I didn't mention it before, but Phrenic would be one of the biggest winners from this change, with the LA both unlocking new PLAs and counting towards their manifester level. That's actually kind of huge.

[NomGarret]

Max essentia for meldshapers is based off character level but that's another really minor one. All in all I agree this is a pretty minor effect that softens the blow for a handful of builds.

[CaPtMalHammer]

I take it your not saying do it like they did in Savage Species then where they took the benefits and hit dice of the creature and made a level progression for it. But rather just give them a phantom type level? Would all depend really I think on what that phantom level granted. if your not careful could be really powerful.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oh, I didn't mention it before, but Phrenic would be one of the biggest winners from this change, with the LA both unlocking new PLAs and counting towards their manifester level. That's actually kind of huge.It's too bad that most of the phrenic powers, by and large, kinda suck. They could've have picked worse PLAs, but it would take some effort.

Defensive precognition, body adjustment, psionic dominate, psionic teleport, and fission are fantastic. I'd almost never use any of the other ones unless I just don't have any better options (of which there are many). I'd say the above powers basically carry the majority value of the level adjustment, with the others just kinda filling up space.

[Troacctid]

I disagree. I think most of the powers are actually pretty useful. It's basically a big bag of save-or-lose effects with a bit of damage to help clean up. Okay, mind thrust is not a power I'm looking to take on a psion, but when you get to augment it the maximum amount for free, it's a legitimate way to spend a standard action.

If you had nothing else, then sure, you'd have some problems, since all the offensive stuff except energy current is mind-affecting and Will negates, which is not a good kind of one-trick pony to be. But when psionic blast is good, it's really good. And if you're fighting a single brute-type monster like a hill giant or a tyrannosaurus, then brain lock, aversion, or psychic crush is going to straight-up win the encounter in one shot a good 50% of the time.