Dungeons & Dragon and science?

[Jon_Dahl]

I'm doing my BA thesis about roleplaying and D&D (among other things). I feel motivated and ready to tackle the research questions but I feel that the teachers find the whole thing somewhat silly. They don't say anything directly, but I just feel that I lack credibility. A professor told me today that "I don't know much about these things, but my kids like to play games". I took that as an offense... Maybe... I don't know... What do you guys think? Is there any place for roleplaying in scientific research? What about Dungeons & Dragons? Have I killed my career as a researcher by writing papers about D&D? To be honest, I'm not planning to be a researcher, so the last question is purely hypothetical.

P.S. Don't ask about my BA thesis, I don't feel like talking about it in more detail.

[FinnLassie]

My advice is not not feel beat down and more take it as a challenge to be as informative as possible with your subject in the thesis. How many research articles have you found that support your thesis from a more "pure" RPG-perspective? It's hard to say anything more, really, since I don't know details any further (and I'm fine if you don't want to share them, you're not the only person I know that has been secretive about their kandi :smallsmile:).

[Lethologica]

Endless volumes of research have been written about children at play, so even in the most condescending characterization of your research you're still engaging in perfectly ordinary and valid academic discourse. And I'm making major assumptions by suggesting that that professor was being condescending in the first place.

D&D seems like a challenging subject to study since so many complex dynamics are involved, but it certainly won't kill your hypothetical academic career to do so.

[Scarlet Knight]

In the end, is your hypothesis legit? If so, the D&D portion is minor. Tons of research has been done on D&D to the point that you may find it hard to be original.

You can mine social interaction, myth creation, gender roles, art preferences, stereotypes, religion, etc. and all can be valid as long as your research is sound.

[Jay R]

Penicillin was developed by studying moldy cheese. The subject isn't the issue. The issue, if there is one, is the approach.

If the research is just an excuse to talk about Dungeons and Dragons, then it's a potential problem. But sociological studies of gamer culture, or psychological studies of gaming minds, or some other serious topic in which the subject is gaming or gamers should be fine.

I did a game theory project on D&D combat in 1976. The professor had no problem with it - because it was good, serious math.

Jay R, Ph.D.

[Jon_Dahl]

If the research is just an excuse to talk about Dungeons and Dragons, then it's a potential problem.

That is an interesting point that you brought up, because most of my classmates are struggling to find any thesis topic or research question. Some have some vague idea of their direction but not much else. I'm certain that our proseminar teacher would be delighted if everyone had an excuse to talk about something, haha :D But I see your point and I agree with you, I'm just saying that things are relative.

[Urzamax]

Well, seeing as you can get a Phd in Batman...
http://www.today.com/id/49329891/ns/today-today_books/t/phd-batman-first-doctorate-comic-books-be-awarded/#.WAW25Nw-6Tc

[Misereor]

A professor told me today that "I don't know much about these things, but my kids like to play games".

Ask him to consider Golf. Football. America's Cup. Cinema. TV-series. Broadway.
Humans are addicted to games and stories. Roleplayers are humans.

[DracoknightZero]

I might go out on a stretch here and think of some ways you can approach this:

Math - Numbers are everywhere, how much of a infulence can it have?
Humans - The social and psychological aspect of such a game?
Story/Mythos - The aspect of mythology and stories incorperated into the D&D universe, or even the reason to why some mythos are still interesting because of D&D?
History - The stigma of D&D through the ages, do a whip at the "controversy" of the demonic themes and its conflicts with religion?

So i suppose its all about the question (or hypothesis) that you want to ask which you can use D&D as a medium for.

[Jay R]

Well, seeing as you can get a Phd in Batman...
http://www.today.com/id/49329891/ns/today-today_books/t/phd-batman-first-doctorate-comic-books-be-awarded/#.WAW25Nw-6Tc

It's not a Ph.D. in Batman. It's a Ph.D. in fine arts. Batman is merely the art being analyzed.

Similarly, here's a thesis on the narrative structures of D&D (http://www.academia.edu/3873121/Masters_Thesis_The_Narrative_Structures_of_Dungeon s_and_Dragons). (Jon_Dahl, you might download this to show your professor. And I strongly recommend that you find some way to cite it in your paper.)

That's the point I tried to make earlier. You can have a thesis in psychology, or sociology, or history, or game theory, or some other subject, in which the subject being analyzed is D&D. I did a game theory paper on it as an undergraduate. But don't call it a D&D thesis.

The topic of D&D won't make an academic paper silly, or turn good, serious research into a fantasy game. But you need to produce good, serious research about the fantasy game.

[Jon_Dahl]

It's not a Ph.D. in Batman. It's a Ph.D. in fine arts. Batman is merely the art being analyzed.

Similarly, here's a thesis on the narrative structures of D&D (http://www.academia.edu/3873121/Masters_Thesis_The_Narrative_Structures_of_Dungeon s_and_Dragons). (Jon_Dahl, you might download this to show your professor. And I strongly recommend that you find some way to cite it in your paper.)

That's the point I tried to make earlier. You can have a thesis in psychology, or sociology, or history, or game theory, or some other subject, in which the subject being analyzed is D&D. I did a game theory paper on it as an undergraduate. But don't call it a D&D thesis.

The topic of D&D won't make an academic paper silly, or turn good, serious research into a fantasy game. But you need to produce good, serious research about the fantasy game.

I'm sorry to be stupid, Jay R, but that thesis looks somewhat dubious.
Reference list? Where is it? What is the structure of this thesis (https://student.unsw.edu.au/thesis-structure)? Index? Foreword and afterword, seriously? What is the ISBN of the thesis? Any information about the academic dissertation? Any possibility of knowing who was the opponent? I barely skimmed the thesis through, though, because I have to read a couple of other books right now so I can read that thesis through next week. I have a third book too, but I let a program read it out for my while I rest my eyes.

I thank you, Jay R, from the bottom of my heart, for trying to help me, but I think my already miniscule credibility might in jeopardy if I showed that PDF to any of my teachers. I'm not trying to be difficult here, but the thesis structure is a bit disconcerting. Is this some sort of an American thing? But I should know American conventions :smalleek:

Once again I sincerely apologize if I'm being an ignoramus here. Just say the word and I will show to the thesis to my proseminar teacher :)

[FinnLassie]

Jay R's link also has a source for the works cited - under files. It shows 1 out of 2, and the other one is the reference list.

You can always ask your prof if something like that would be considered a valid source. Plus you can try to contact the person who wrote the thesis in case you need more info.

[Jon_Dahl]

Jay R's link also has a source for the works cited - under files. It shows 1 out of 2, and the other one is the reference list.

You can always ask your prof if something like that would be considered a valid source. Plus you can try to contact the person who wrote the thesis in case you need more info.

Thanks, I didn't notice that. It seems a bit unorthodox to me that a thesis is in separate files so I couldn't even imagine that the reference list was somewhere else. No biggie.

[Jay R]

I'm sorry to be stupid, Jay R, but that thesis looks somewhat dubious.

It may be. I didn't read it, just pointed it out.

Here's a list of other papers on D&D (http://www.rpgstudies.net/). You might find something useful here, and citations from published papers will make the subject seem a bit more legitimate.

But I don't vouch for them. I'll point things out, but the research part is up to you.

Good luck!

[Telonius]

No room for roleplaying in academic papers? That would be news to Jacob Moreno.

My advice would be to ground your paper in as much applicable and appropriate previous research as possible; a solid References section will help them to take it seriously. (True for any research, really).

[FinnLassie]

Thanks, I didn't notice that. It seems a bit unorthodox to me that a thesis is in separate files so I couldn't even imagine that the reference list was somewhere else. No biggie.

Might just be the way that the website publishes them - the actual author of the thesis might not really have a say in the thing.

[Jon_Dahl]

Might just be the way that the website publishes them - the actual author of the thesis might not really have a say in the thing.

In that case, I'd have the website's publishing license revoked ASAP, haha

[Jon_Dahl]

No room for roleplaying in academic papers? That would be news to Jacob Moreno.

My advice would be to ground your paper in as much applicable and appropriate previous research as possible; a solid References section will help them to take it seriously. (True for any research, really).

Thank you. At the moment, I'm putting some serious effort into finding good material that my teachers find at least adequate. I feel overwhelmed by the sources I have collected so far - so many pages to read.

[Jay R]

I feel overwhelmed by the sources I have collected so far - so many pages to read.

Great! You're learning the essence of research.

[Leewei]

I'm doing my BA thesis about roleplaying and D&D (among other things). I feel motivated and ready to tackle the research questions but I feel that the teachers find the whole thing somewhat silly. They don't say anything directly, but I just feel that I lack credibility. A professor told me today that "I don't know much about these things, but my kids like to play games". I took that as an offense... Maybe... I don't know... What do you guys think? Is there any place for roleplaying in scientific research? What about Dungeons & Dragons? Have I killed my career as a researcher by writing papers about D&D? To be honest, I'm not planning to be a researcher, so the last question is purely hypothetical.

P.S. Don't ask about my BA thesis, I don't feel like talking about it in more detail.

Here's someone of interest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._A._R._Barker

[Liquor Box]

I think it is a legitimate subject for you thesis, but it is not my opinion (or anyone here's) that matters. It is yours to some extent, but it is also your professor's.

Do you think that your professor's comments suggest that he or she would take a study on D&D less seriously, or would be less likely to be interested in or understand the subject matter (making it more difficult to follow the reasoning and the conclusion)? If so, from a practical perspective, it may be worth considering something else just to make life easier for yourself and get a better mark.

[Jon_Dahl]

I think it is a legitimate subject for you thesis, but it is not my opinion (or anyone here's) that matters. It is yours to some extent, but it is also your professor's.

Do you think that your professor's comments suggest that he or she would take a study on D&D less seriously, or would be less likely to be interested in or understand the subject matter (making it more difficult to follow the reasoning and the conclusion)? If so, from a practical perspective, it may be worth considering something else just to make life easier for yourself and get a better mark.

You have a valid point. My idea is to be experimental and daring with my BA thesis and play everything as safely as possible with my MA thesis. I think that might support my learning and career in the most ideal way.

[Vinyadan]

It depends on what you are studying. I know that sociology and rehabilitation need this kind of studies. If you are studying randomness theory about dice rolls, that's not that good.

[Jon_Dahl]

It depends on what you are studying. I know that sociology and rehabilitation need this kind of studies. If you are studying randomness theory about dice rolls, that's not that good.

It's not about maths, that much I can tell you.

[SaintRidley]

I'm sorry to be stupid, Jay R, but that thesis looks somewhat dubious.
Reference list? Where is it? What is the structure of this thesis (https://student.unsw.edu.au/thesis-structure)? Index? Foreword and afterword, seriously? What is the ISBN of the thesis? Any information about the academic dissertation? Any possibility of knowing who was the opponent? I barely skimmed the thesis through, though, because I have to read a couple of other books right now so I can read that thesis through next week. I have a third book too, but I let a program read it out for my while I rest my eyes.

I thank you, Jay R, from the bottom of my heart, for trying to help me, but I think my already miniscule credibility might in jeopardy if I showed that PDF to any of my teachers. I'm not trying to be difficult here, but the thesis structure is a bit disconcerting. Is this some sort of an American thing? But I should know American conventions :smalleek:

Once again I sincerely apologize if I'm being an ignoramus here. Just say the word and I will show to the thesis to my proseminar teacher :)

To answer some of the questions you pose here:

Reference list is in the works cited, second file. The link you give for structure seems tailored toward the sciences and wouldn't be appropriate for this master's thesis to use. The structure is more or less like you would see in a PhD dissertation in the humanities, but with shorter chapters. There's no ISBN number. Not sure what you mean by opponent here.

The thesis seems to be the unpublished version of the Master's Thesis, but you can rest assured that it was accepted for fulfillment of the degree requirements (scroll down (http://www.oc.edu/academics/language-and-literature/faculty.html), to find his info).

[FinnLassie]

IIRC, mention of the opponent is a must in a Finnish thesis. And... to return to that ISBN thing.... I don't think that theses get those?

[Jon_Dahl]

IIRC, mention of the opponent is a must in a Finnish thesis. And... to return to that ISBN thing.... I don't think that theses get those?

Correct :)

[Jon_Dahl]

I just finished talking with a professor whom I greatly admire, and he promised to read about my thesis topics and also an excerpt of my tentative introduction chapter. His research field is closely related to mine, and as a middle-aged American man he should have at least some perspective to D&D. He has promised to give me feedback in couple of days, so I'm feeling pretty anxious here.

[Jon_Dahl]

I just finished writing a preliminary introduction to my BA thesis. I'm intending to apply 17 different theories in my D&D-related research. Is that a good start?

[Chen]

Without knowing what you're talking about at all, I have no idea if its a good start. That said 17 sounds like a ridiculous number of theories to try and discuss in a single paper, unless I'm misunderstanding something. Also I am not familiar with non-engineering related theses, so it perhaps something like that isn't abnormal.

[Jon_Dahl]

Without knowing what you're talking about at all, I have no idea if its a good start. That said 17 sounds like a ridiculous number of theories to try and discuss in a single paper, unless I'm misunderstanding something. Also I am not familiar with non-engineering related theses, so it perhaps something like that isn't abnormal.

It's true that it's not possible to answer my question without knowing what I'm talking about.

[FinnLassie]

It's true that it's not possible to answer my question without knowing what I'm talking about.

Which comes to the conclusion: why ask if we don't know what the question really means? Not asking this in a malicious way, just pure wonder.

Also, you have stated your degree programme plenty of times on the forum before, so I'm not entirely getting why you have not mentioned it in this thread.

[Jon_Dahl]

Which comes to the conclusion: why ask if we don't know what the question really means? Not asking this in a malicious way, just pure wonder.

Also, you have stated your degree programme plenty of times on the forum before, so I'm not entirely getting why you have not mentioned it in this thread.

I asked for the sake of conversation.

Have I really mentioned that many times? Oh bugger, I thought that it was a mystery that I have revealed maybe once or twice... I usually don't remember what I have said, this happens a lot. For instance, I remember what other people have said but I have no clue what I have said. Very common.

[big teej]

I'm doing my BA thesis about roleplaying and D&D (among other things). I feel motivated and ready to tackle the research questions but I feel that the teachers find the whole thing somewhat silly. They don't say anything directly, but I just feel that I lack credibility. A professor told me today that "I don't know much about these things, but my kids like to play games". I took that as an offense... Maybe... I don't know... What do you guys think? Is there any place for roleplaying in scientific research? What about Dungeons & Dragons? Have I killed my career as a researcher by writing papers about D&D? To be honest, I'm not planning to be a researcher, so the last question is purely hypothetical.

P.S. Don't ask about my BA thesis, I don't feel like talking about it in more detail.

One of my closest friends (and a core member of my 7ish year strong weekly rpg group) is a college professor who got his degree with a thesis on Rocky and Bullwinkle, he lives for pop-culture studies and the like.

furthermore, while researching several psyche papers as an undergrad, I found numerous research articles either studying DnD specifically, or the effects of roleplaying on the players.

you truck on brother.

[Jon_Dahl]

One of my closest friends (and a core member of my 7ish year strong weekly rpg group) is a college professor who got his degree with a thesis on Rocky and Bullwinkle, he lives for pop-culture studies and the like.

furthermore, while researching several psyche papers as an undergrad, I found numerous research articles either studying DnD specifically, or the effects of roleplaying on the players.

you truck on brother.

Thank you, big teej, this is exactly the kind of support I was hoping for. Thank you.

[Jon_Dahl]

Well, I'll be damned... My work isn't going that well. My original idea was to have a very small sample, a case study, and then approach it from several different angles. Now I got feedback from my teacher and she said that my plan is so massive that it covers about two doctoral theses :smallfrown: Damn it, I was certain that I could have done it, since the sample was so small. This is so ironic... My plan with the small research material was to limit the research so that it could meet the strict requirements of a BA thesis, but apparently I got it all wrong. My teacher is also wanting me to take a different approach, but I don't know what kind of approach she wants. Argh!

[SaintRidley]

Well, yeah. Trying to cram 17 different theoretical approaches into one analysis was only ever going to cause confusion and difficulty, and really isn't productive at any level, let alone at the BA level.

Your field is Portuguese philology, right? I think that's right (if it's not, tell us what it is - you can't be helped if you don't tell us the field). If your field is philology, then it only makes sense your adviser is telling you to do something different, since the thesis presumably should tie into your major field of study and there's just not really any way to twist a study of D&D into a thesis in philology unless you get in the weeds of player-created languages.

Speaking as someone working simultaneously on a doctoral dissertation and an MFA thesis, you need to figure out how to recognize your present limitations, the scope of what a BA thesis can cover, and what a feasible project would be that considers the parameters of your situation.

[Laylyn]

I'm doing my BA thesis about roleplaying and D&D (among other things). I feel motivated and ready to tackle the research questions but I feel that the teachers find the whole thing somewhat silly. They don't say anything directly, but I just feel that I lack credibility. A professor told me today that "I don't know much about these things, but my kids like to play games". I took that as an offense... Maybe... I don't know... What do you guys think? Is there any place for roleplaying in scientific research? What about Dungeons & Dragons? Have I killed my career as a researcher by writing papers about D&D? To be honest, I'm not planning to be a researcher, so the last question is purely hypothetical.

P.S. Don't ask about my BA thesis, I don't feel like talking about it in more detail.


There was an article I read at one point that computer games actually helped the elderly and the brain damaged. I think you can find a lot of avenues in science where positive mental exercise can be helpful to people and that's just one avenue.


/salute

[Jon_Dahl]

Well, yeah. Trying to cram 17 different theoretical approaches into one analysis was only ever going to cause confusion and difficulty, and really isn't productive at any level, let alone at the BA level.

Your field is Portuguese philology, right? I think that's right (if it's not, tell us what it is - you can't be helped if you don't tell us the field). If your field is philology, then it only makes sense your adviser is telling you to do something different, since the thesis presumably should tie into your major field of study and there's just not really any way to twist a study of D&D into a thesis in philology unless you get in the weeds of player-created languages.

Speaking as someone working simultaneously on a doctoral dissertation and an MFA thesis, you need to figure out how to recognize your present limitations, the scope of what a BA thesis can cover, and what a feasible project would be that considers the parameters of your situation.

I thought I had recognized my limitations, but I was wrong. It was still worth the shot, right? And I'm still allowed to try to write my thesis about D&D, I'm just totally clueless what to do now.

[Jon_Dahl]

My teacher presented me with algorithms and this is the first and maybe the last that I have seen anything mathematical during my university studies. Seeing the algorithms scared the living crap out of me (seriously) and I decided to send an e-mail to my proseminar supervisor suggesting that I could do something else, like vanilla run-of-the-mill stuff, nothing to do with D&D. Please, no algorithms for me, please...

[SaintRidley]

Seriously, it would be best if you actually just tell us what your field of study is so you can be helped. Keeping everything under wraps means that nobody can say anything useful to you, not because they are incapable, but because you refuse to provide enough information to make yourself helpable.

Because now I have no idea whether my initial read of your field is correct anymore.

[Jon_Dahl]

Seriously, it would be best if you actually just tell us what your field of study is so you can be helped. Keeping everything under wraps means that nobody can say anything useful to you, not because they are incapable, but because you refuse to provide enough information to make yourself helpable.

Because now I have no idea whether my initial read of your field is correct anymore.

Ok, I will.

I study English Philology and my proseminar is about discourse analysis (linguistics). The problem right now is that everything seems so complicated that I feel completely stuck. With narrative, I get stuck with storytelling matrices and algorithms, and the whole linguistic approach seems extremely limited, a lot more than I had imagined. I was thinking that I could have more freedom.
I would say that you were right enough, because philology is philology. Whether I write about D&D in Portuguese Philology or in English Philology, it doesn't really make that much of a difference. And sorry if I seem difficult, but I'm just being very sensitive about the whole thing and I can't take any toxic comments right now.

[Ceaon]

Is it possible to downsize and discuss the two or three most prevalent theories?

[darkrose50]

D&D was instrumental in my learning to read. I went from a 3rd grade reading level in 5th grade to a college reading level in 8th grade.

D&D affords structured social interaction. This can be a huge learning tool for those with autism (I have Asperger's Syndrome).

Reading, writing, math, creative play, imagination, problem solving, social interaction . . . all good things.

D&D is social interaction. A DM manages players. The skills used while DMing are an extremely similar skill set to that of a project manager. Many DM's become project managers. I know at least one, likely more.

So playing a game can help an individual form life-long academic skills (professors should eat that up), and may quite possibly lead to learning the foundations of the project manager profession (not too shabby).