Gunslinger, can other classes do it better?

[Deca4531]

I'm making a Gunslinger as my backup character for a campaign I'm in, but during my research into the class I can't really find the true power of it. So they start with a free gun and the gunsmith feat, but if you aren't low level the price of a gun isn't that bad, and if you spend a feat on gunsmith it's even less. They are a full BAB class, but guns ignore armor at close range, so that full BAB isn't really necessary. The deeds, from what I can see, aren't anything amazing. I feel like a fighter, with all his bonus feats and heavy armor proficiency would be better at doing a Gunslinger's job. Or a Rogue with his sneak attack, the touch Ac effect of the guns would benefit him more, and sneak attack damage would greatly out do the Gun Training that Gunslinger's get. On top of that they have more skills and rogue talents.

Is there something I'm missing that makes Gunslinger's amazing? If you guys know of an amazing gunslinger build or just some tips on making it more on par with the other classes plz let me know.

[Sayt]

Gunslingers get a few tricks to reload efficiently and clear misfires.

Regarding sneak attacks, touch attacks don't interact with sneak attacks in any special way, and because you can't flank with ranged attacks, you're reliant on flat foot damage.

Full bab is good with firearms because you can TWF, Rapidshot and Deadly aim all at once while retaining sufficient attack bonus to Hit touch AC.


Gunslinger is Best At Guns, however, Trench Fighter gets dex2dmg earlier and is a good springboard into Sniper (Slayer).

[Deca4531]

Gunslingers get a few tricks to reload efficiently and clear misfires.

Regarding sneak attacks, touch attacks don't interact with sneak attacks in any special way, and because you can't flank with ranged attacks, you're reliant on flat foot damage.

Full bab is good with firearms because you can TWF, Rapidshot and Deadly aim all at once while retaining sufficient attack bonus to Hit touch AC.


Gunslinger is Best At Guns, however, Trench Fighter gets dex2dmg earlier and is a good springboard into Sniper (Slayer).

I don't see miss fires as being too big of an issue on a regular basis, unless the dice gods hate you lol. As for reloading the quick load and rapid reload feat take care of that.

I understand that touch doesn't effect sneak attack, but since rogue's have lower BAB it would help them land hits in order to get sneak attack.

As for TWF it was my understanding that you always need a free hand to reload a gun, so wouldn't that make TWF very difficult?

[Necroticplague]

As for TWF it was my understanding that you always need a free hand to reload a gun, so wouldn't that make TWF very difficult?

Tiefling for Prehensile Tail, Alchemist for Tentacle, Warlord for Sea Combat, Mystic for Animus Ammunition, Gun Twirling feat.

[Sayt]

You do, but there are a few ways to get free 'hands' for reloads or work around that restriction: Tiefling prehensile tail, white haired witch, alchemist 2 for vestigial limb, dropping and quick drawing new pistols, and the feat gun twirling.

[Deca4531]

So outside of class dips or locking into a race (given not a bad race for a Gunslinger bit I was still hoping to go human) I would have to dedicate another feat. So I would need 2 feats just to reload one gun effectively, then 2 more to qualify for Gun Twirling before I could even get TWF. Fighter is sounding better and better lol

[Necroticplague]

So outside of class dips or locking into a race (given not a bad race for a Gunslinger bit I was still hoping to go human) I would have to dedicate another feat. So I would need 2 feats just to reload one gun effectively, then 2 more to qualify for Gun Twirling before I could even get TWF. Fighter is sounding better and better lol

Keep in mind, Gunslinger also gets bonus feats, though half as much. However, a fighter would need to blow a feat on EWP (firearms) and Gunsmithing. If you consider Musket Master, their's also the free Rapid Reload, so a Gunslinger comes out ahead for feats (at least at earlier levels).

[Deca4531]

Keep in mind, Gunslinger also gets bonus feats, though half as much. However, a fighter would need to blow a feat on EWP (firearms) and Gunsmithing. If you consider Musket Master, their's also the free Rapid Reload, so a Gunslinger comes out ahead for feats (at least at earlier levels).

So in order to TWF without am extra arm you would need
1Rapid reload
2Quick draw
3Dazzlin display
4Weapon focus
5Gun Twirling
6Two weapon fighting.
And of course point blank shot and precise shot are always a must, so between 6 and 8 feats. You get 5 feats from levels up to 9 (most games don't go much farther than that in my exp) and 2 bonus feats at 4 and 8 so the build will be usable by about lv 8?

[Geddy2112]

If you are playing in a setting with the "guns everywhere" rule you get dex to damage with a gun from a single level in gunslinger, which is pretty hard to beat.

At most, gunslinger is a 5 level class, in which case you multiclass out. It comes out a bit ahead to take a single dip and then go trench fighter 3 than take trench fighter 3, as you get a lot of feats built in and quick clear, which does come up at low levels.
You can use a free hand to reload the gun even if it is 2 handed. Also, keep in mind alchemical cartridges reduce load time, which is good.

[Necroticplague]

So in order to TWF without am extra arm you would need
1Rapid reload
2Quick draw
3Dazzlin display
4Weapon focus
5Gun Twirling
6Two weapon fighting.
And of course point blank shot and precise shot are always a must, so between 6 and 8 feats. You get 5 feats from levels up to 9 (most games don't go much farther than that in my exp) and 2 bonus feats at 4 and 8 so the build will be usable by about lv 8?

I've never been a fan of single class. So my own build would include a Privateer Warlord dip for Sea Combat, which allows one to reload with your hands full. That gets rid of the need for Gun Twirling entirely. So I could then pick up Rapid Reload (pistols), get TWF, and be good to go. Use alchemical cartridges to get that reload down to a free, keep a couple backups in case something blows up.

Or, depending on wealth level, just grab a couple Pistols of the Infinite Sky (no reload, no misfire, basically avoids what makes guns a pain to use).

[Secret Wizard]

Greatest Myths of Pathfinder #9: Going straight Gunslinger is a bad idea.

Gunslingers have, baseline a TON of damage. Dipping out of it to deal more damage is usually a terrible choice because you don't particularly gain that much damage anyway.

What Gunslingers need desperately are two things: 1. Survivability; 2. Utility.

The more levels in Gunslinger you get, the better you are at both of those. Bleeding Shot is so stupidly good -- you can shut down casters hard with it. Meanwhile, Cheat Death, Slinger's Luck and Evasive are the best deeds possible for someone who wants to stay alive to keep up pumping lead.

There really isn't anything that can beat a pure Gunslinger at higher levels.

As a GM, I felt very much check-mated by my player -- he'd never be flat-footed, he'd never be flanked, he'd never fail a save, he'd mitigate fireball damage, etc... and he'd still output damage like a damn beast.

[AncientSpark]

Greatest Myths of Pathfinder #9: Going straight Gunslinger is a bad idea.

Gunslingers have, baseline a TON of damage. Dipping out of it to deal more damage is usually a terrible choice because you don't particularly gain that much damage anyway.

Okay, realistically, how much damage is ACTUALLY included in the Gunslinger class assuming no archetypes? There's really two features that you're talking about:

1) Gun Training
2) Bleeding Wound

That's it. Every other feature in the Gunslinger is utility or gimmicky effects. And, even then, Bleeding Wound doesn't provide that much damage; it's around 10 damage per round at higher levels, unless you nova up some serious grit which you might not have because grit doesn't scale very well with levels.

What you're mostly talking about is this; Dex to damage is strong because ranged weapons get one more attack than other attack styles (due to Rapid Shot) and guns have high accuracy due to touch attacks, which allows other things like Deadly Aim. That's not disputed. The problem is that Dex to damage, AKA, gun training, can be replicated with 3 levels in Trench Fighter or 5 levels in Gunslinger; it doesn't scale with Gunslinger levels after that point. And the accuracy is an inherent property of guns. So the high damage of Gunslinger comes from a dippable feature and a property universal to all gun users.

THAT'S why it's a bad idea to go straight Gunslinger; your damage doesn't increase very much from Gunslinger features past level 5; it increases mostly because of the inherent power of guns. This means you can do a lot more interesting stuff with your remaining 15 (or 17) levels; for example, Investigator (Steel Hound) makes for a better gunslinger as, now, you not only do straight damage, but you also have skills AND extracts. True, you give up some BAB, but you still have good accuracy due to Studied Combat and you even do more damage per shot due to said Studied Combat. The only reason why Investigator isn't more common is because it's heavily feat draining.

[Secret Wizard]

I just said that damage is not an issue for firearm builds. Going with a build that deals more damage is not of any particular benefit.

That's like saying Swashbucklers are a good class because every level you spend in that class gives you damage, when the reality is that Swashes are a pretty ****ty class because they lack basic defenses and utility.

DEX-to-damage and Deadly Aim are all you need. Rest of your feats should be spent in non-linear damage increases (like Improved Precise Shot and Clustered Shots) and the rest of your levels in survivability, which the Gunslinger provides in spades.

[Deca4531]

Greatest Myths of Pathfinder #9: Going straight Gunslinger is a bad idea.
.

Really I have found that to be a trend with most of the PF classes. In 3.5 it was almost a necessity to multi class bit not so much in PF.

[AncientSpark]

I just said that damage is not an issue for firearm builds. Going with a build that deals more damage is not of any particular benefit.

That's like saying Swashbucklers are a good class because every level you spend in that class gives you damage, when the reality is that Swashes are a pretty ****ty class because they lack basic defenses and utility.

DEX-to-damage and Deadly Aim are all you need. Rest of your feats should be spent in non-linear damage increases (like Improved Precise Shot and Clustered Shots) and the rest of your levels in survivability, which the Gunslinger provides in spades.

But that's the thing; Gunslinger's utility effects aren't really that good. Most of it is basically "really gimmicky, niche effects" or "not die". Again, we point to other classes that have more interesting effects, both in and out-of-combat. Investigator is the go-to because it just provides so much besides combat ability, but Cavalier for teamwork features or good defenses is another good example.

Now, I'm not saying that it's impossible to make a good Gunslinger, I'm just saying that it's generally a bad idea, with the sole exception of if the only thing you care about are, again, the one thing Gunslinger provides at high levels and that is "not die" effects. And, even then, that's a bit of a slog because the first really good defensive mechanic for a gunslinger comes at level 15 (Evasive), which makes for a bit of a slog in the mid levels.

[Geddy2112]

Greatest Myths of Pathfinder #9: Going straight Gunslinger is a bad idea.
It is doable, but the big sell is the firearm proficiency(and gunsmithing), quick clear at low levels, and dex to damage through gun training. At higher levels, it is just another martial class. That said, I think gunslinger can mix well with other martials and even casting classes. Being dex and wis based is great in pathfinder-every divine caster uses wisdom and dexterity is arguably the best ability in the game. Gunslingers can shine multiclassing or dipping any martial and/or wisdom based class. That is a good majority of the classes in the game.

There are also archetypes to get charisma for grit(buccaneer and mysterious stranger) and intelligence for grit(siege gunner) if you wanna play in the CHA or INT based classes. That is darn near everything in the game. With high dex and most deeds only allowing light armor, dropping it is not the end of the world if you have magical backup. This frees up arcane casters, and monks return that high WIS to AC that you lost from having armor. In a game where gold is tight, that is less money on armor and more on tricking out your guns.


Gunslingers have, baseline a TON of damage.
This is absolutely true.


Dipping out of it to deal more damage is usually a terrible choice because you don't particularly gain that much damage anyway. I disagree-once you have dex to damage the main thing powering gunslinger damage are more ranged combat feats(hammer the gap) and magically blinging out your guns/increasing dex. Magic also adds a ton of damage, as can plenty of class abilities. In particular, the inquisitor gets the judgement and bane abilities, which can add a ton of damage to things you are already shooting. It also adds a bunch of in and out of combat utility through magic.


What Gunslingers need desperately are two things: 1. Survivability; 2. Utility.
With a d10 hit dice and fort/reflex as good saves(plus tons of dex and the nimble class ability) they are not all that fragile. They also tend to fight at range away from scary things and are less prone to hits. having poor will saves is mitigated by the fact the class is wis based.

They do need utility, because while they can do absolutely absurd amounts of damage, that is ALL they are good at doing. Damage. At higher levels in the game, damage is not the best thing going.


The more levels in Gunslinger you get, the better you are at both of those. Bleeding Shot is so stupidly good -- you can shut down casters hard with it. Meanwhile, Cheat Death, Slinger's Luck and Evasive are the best deeds possible for someone who wants to stay alive to keep up pumping lead. Bleeding shot is good and it can pressure a caster, but most humanoid casters will die from a full round of lead or damn close. Against bigger monsters with SLA's, it can sometimes shut down casting but no guarantee. The other abilities are very late and coming online when casters are reshaping the world as they see fit. Even evasion is old hat-monks and rogues had it at level 2, and it was not dependent on a grit point. Even rangers got there first.


There really isn't anything that can beat a pure Gunslinger at higher levels.
Except anything with magic. Certainly if the gunslinger got the drop on a caster it might go differently but 1. That is true for every damage powerhouse and 2. it is probably not going to happen. In solo combat a gunslinger could probably kill most tier 4 classes, and maybe a tier 3 if they went first. They don't stand a chance against anything higher.


As a GM, I felt very much check-mated by my player -- he'd never be flat-footed, he'd never be flanked, he'd never fail a save, he'd mitigate fireball damage, etc... and he'd still output damage like a damn beast. At higher levels, gunslingers are still doing well by point and click removing enemies, but against any higher level optimized monsters with no save abilities or halfway optimized caster tricks, the gunslinger is as fragile as any tier 5. Damage is not the name of the game at higher levels, and even then there are other martial classes putting out a similar amount of pain. Meanwhile, your casters are near deity status.

[Krazzman]

Would a Black Powder Inquisition Inquisitor with a dip in Trench fighter or Gunslinger (or Amateur Gunslinger Feat) not be better?

You got Spells, Judgements and 3/4 BaB you can either mitigate or just go for more damage.

[Deca4531]

Would a Black Powder Inquisition Inquisitor with a dip in Trench fighter or Gunslinger (or Amateur Gunslinger Feat) not be better?

You got Spells, Judgements and 3/4 BaB you can either mitigate or just go for more damage.

It would give you more utility, which the gunslinger is sorely lacking, but you wouldn't be able to go duel wielding since you need those bonus feats to make it work. You also get your second attack 3 levels latter, so you loose out on a big chunk of damage.

At 5th level a duel wield gunslinger would do 2d8 +8 (assuming an 18 Dex) and at 6th level that doubles to 4d8 +16

Now an Inquisitor at 5th level could do 1d8, or 1d12 with a musket. Ay 8th level it goes up to 2d8 or 2d12. I know they get Bane on their weapons as a swift action but it only works for a few rounds a day, unlike the GS who has its dmg bonus all the time.

Then again I'm no expert on the Inquisitor so if you know of an amazing build plz let be know.

[Segev]

Can a mage hand reload for you? Can get that at-will for an 1800 gp item. Specialize it to reloading only and you can probably apply at least a 30% reduction in price to it (based on "only usable by Gunslingers").

[Necroticplague]

Can a mage hand reload for you? Can get that at-will for an 1800 gp item. Specialize it to reloading only and you can probably apply at least a 30% reduction in price to it (based on "only usable by Gunslingers").

Mage Hand requires concentration, though. So it's more like 'reload at range' than 'reload for you' (ignoring the questionably of going from move to reload). There is a spell that does exactly that, thought (Reloading Hands, creatively enough).

[Deca4531]

Mage Hand requires concentration, though. So it's more like 'reload at range' than 'reload for you' (ignoring the questionably of going from move to reload). There is a spell that does exactly that, thought (Reloading Hands, creatively enough).

It is a nice spell, but it only lasts rounds/level. If you were to have a custom magic item mage so it was always active it would cost 48,000 gold (caster lv 3 x spell level 2 x 2000 gold x 4 for spell duration)

Or you could just craft Pistols of the infinite sky (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/pistol-of-the-infinite-sky) for 37,300 gold

[Segev]

It is a nice spell, but it only lasts rounds/level. If you were to have a custom magic item mage so it was always active it would cost 48,000 gold (caster lv 3 x spell level 2 x 2000 gold x 4 for spell duration)

Or you could just craft Pistols of the infinite sky (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/pistol-of-the-infinite-sky) for 37,300 gold

Make it command-activated. It'll last for 3 rounds, and then you take only an action to re-activate it if you need to on the fourth round. 3x2x1800 = 8400 gp; much more affordable.

I like quick-draw + multigun, myself, though. Derringer Meryl!

[Deca4531]

Make it command-activated. It'll last for 3 rounds, and then you take only an action to re-activate it if you need to on the fourth round. 3x2x1800 = 8400 gp; much more affordable.

I like quick-draw + multigun, myself, though. Derringer Meryl!

Lol I thought about that too, but since each pistol costs 1000g (500 to craft) if you're duel wielding like she did, and assume average combat of 8 rounds, you're looking at 8000 (4000 crafted) gold just to afford your weapons, and those aren't masterwork or magical lol

Also, where does it way command activated lasts 3 rounds? I saw the price calculator for that kind of item but not a disruption of exactly what it did.

[DirePorkChop]

Greatest Myths of Pathfinder #9: Going straight Gunslinger is a bad idea.!!
Tl/dr

Hmmm... Do we have a link to this?

[Barstro]

At 5th level a duel wield gunslinger would do 2d8 +8 (assuming an 18 Dex) and at 6th level that doubles to 4d8 +16
That's per hit, so you also need to take into account how often you hit.


Now an Inquisitor at 5th level could do 1d8, or 1d12 with a musket. Ay 8th level it goes up to 2d8 or 2d12. I know they get Bane on their weapons as a swift action but it only works for a few rounds a day, unlike the GS who has its dmg bonus all the time.

Then again I'm no expert on the Inquisitor so if you know of an amazing build plz let be know.
Round 1, use Judgement as a swift action for +2 damage on each attack (+3 at level 6, +4 at level 9)
At level 8, get a second Judgement to make the to-hit at +2 (+3 at level 10) as well as the bonus damage.

Round 2, use Bane to make it a +2 to hit and a +2 to damage and another +2d6 to damage. By level 10 you are able to do this pretty much every fight from round two onward. At level 12, damage increases to +4d6.

Level 5 (assuming Deca's numbers)
Round 1) 1d12+2
Round 2) 1d12+4+2d6

Level 8
Round 1) 2d12+3 (with a +2 to hit)
Round 2) 2d12+5+2d6 (with a +2 to hit)

AND: spells! You can save a lot of your WBL by using Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon, as well as get some very long hit/damage buffs.

[Deca4531]

That's per hit, so you also need to take into account how often you hit.


Round 1, use Judgement as a swift action for +2 damage on each attack (+3 at level 6, +4 at level 9)
At level 8, get a second Judgement to make the to-hit at +2 (+3 at level 10) as well as the bonus damage.

Round 2, use Bane to make it a +2 to hit and a +2 to damage and another +2d6 to damage. By level 10 you are able to do this pretty much every fight from round two onward. At level 12, damage increases to +4d6.

Level 5 (assuming Deca's numbers)
Round 1) 1d12+2
Round 2) 1d12+4+2d6

Level 8
Round 1) 2d12+3 (with a +2 to hit)
Round 2) 2d12+5+2d6 (with a +2 to hit)

AND: spells! You can save a lot of your WBL by using Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon, as well as get some very long hit/damage buffs.

I agree that in cases of limited short round burst they can do ok, but things like bane and judgment are limited resources. I'm many games I horde such things in case of an emergency, sometimes never using them at all during a session because I am always worried that a bigger, badder monster is right around the corner.

Still Gunslinger, optimized, is still only a one hit wonder. You differently get more balance from Inquisitor wile still doing acceptable damage, just not the "one shot the boss" kinda damage lol.

[Barstro]

I agree that in cases of limited short round burst they can do ok, but things like bane and judgment are limited resources.
Mathematically they are limited, but in reality they are up all the time.

At level 10, the Inquisitor can activate Judgement four times per day. Judgement lasts for an entire encounter and only very rarely does one have more than four encounters per day.
At level 10, the Inquisitor can use Bane 10 rounds per day. Since those are "round" and not "encounters", and both Bane and Judgement are swift actions, Bane will never rarely be used in the first round. The Inquisitor would need eleven rounds after first rounds each day to run out of Bane at level 10.

My Inquisitor never ran out of either of them after level 10 and even switched out of the +Hit and +Damage Judgments because he was overshadowing the party. (I also horded them for the same reason, but eventually learned that it just didn't matter).

IMO, "One shot the boss" is boring as hell. But, just my opinion.

[Snowbluff]

Tl/dr

Hmmm... Do we have a link to this?

I'm very interested in bad advice in the form of "myth busting." It would be interesting.

[Segev]

Lol I thought about that too, but since each pistol costs 1000g (500 to craft) if you're duel wielding like she did, and assume average combat of 8 rounds, you're looking at 8000 (4000 crafted) gold just to afford your weapons, and those aren't masterwork or magical lolPity. How much would it be to just get a revolver instead of a single-shot pistol?


Also, where does it way command activated lasts 3 rounds? I saw the price calculator for that kind of item but not a disruption of exactly what it did.

Command-activated items last for the duration of the spell, each time the command is given. The spell is rounds/level, so with a caster level of 3 (minimum at which you can make the item using a 2nd level spell), it will last for 3 rounds before you have to spend a standard action using the command word again.

[Deca4531]

Pity. How much would it be to just get a revolver instead of a single-shot pistol?
.

4,000 gold each. But generally speaking Advanced Firearms aren't in most games

[9mm]

Tl/dr

Hmmm... Do we have a link to this?

Sadly no, because going straight gunslinger is a bad idea; despite claims to the contrary.

Obligatory link to the guide to guides. (http://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-comprehensive-pathfinder-guides.html) there are several gunslinger guides available for perusal.