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DracoKnight
2016-10-17, 11:20 PM
WotC got a lot right when they designed the Fighter for 5e, but there are a couple of things that need tweaking. Here's my Fighter Fix (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ByZQ1CJQJx) :smallsmile:

Note: all of my changes come from having played all 3 PHB archetypes in various games. I have not played the Purple Dragon Knight, but needed to tweak Bulwark after my change to Indomitable.


Levels I have played the Fighter at:

Champion: 1-6
Battle Master: 5-14
Eldritch Knight: 1-20



Second Wind is a great feature, but it loses its usefulness at higher levels, due to 1/rest usability
You now get Extra Attack at 5th, 11th, and 17th levels. This creates design consistency, mirroring when the other classes in the game get their power boosts.
I can't think of a time where this feature was ever useful to me in my 2 years of playing fighters, particularly as a long rest ability. I have changed it to be like the Paladin's Aura of Protection, except keyed off of CON, and only applying to yourself.
I removed the school restrictions on Eldritch Knight Spellcasting, after seeing how many groups handwave it away anyways.
Now bound weapons count as magical for overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical damage.
Bulwark needed to be changed to reflect the changes to Indomitable.


Martial Expertise replaces Indomitable's improvement at 13th level, and reflects the Fighter's martial prowess.
I created Ace of Blades after moving the Fighter's 4th attack to 17th level. This should be a better capstone for the fighter, and make it worth going 20 levels in this class.

Sicarius Victis
2016-10-18, 01:06 AM
Not sure about the second benefit of Ace of Blades, but the modified Extra Attack thing seems both balanced and logical.

Yakk
2016-10-18, 05:50 AM
17th gets both a second action surge and an extra attack.

Ace of Blades, which upgrades that second action surge, is at 20th, rather close to 17th.

Suggestion: Move the 2nd action point *down*. Remove the "two action points in one turn" on Ace of Blades (it conflicts with the "earn extra action surges" feature annoyingly).

Maybe add "you get a second bonus action when you use your action surge" in place of it, or "you get two reactions".

---

No Maneuver fixes? I cannot help but feel most of them are traps.

---

Repeat uses of Second Wind seems less useful than making the one use bigger. And taking multiple second winds in a row seems meh; against the feel of the ability.

Secret Wizard
2016-10-18, 01:10 PM
Yeah, let's see some fat second winds at higher levels instead. Maybe get +1d10 healing instead of an extra use.

Also, no champion fixes? That archetype deals no damage.

AngryJesusMan
2017-05-23, 01:08 PM
I just wanted to jump on here as I perused and let you know of a couple of issues related to how the content is presented, as opposed to critiques on the actual material.


On the Homebrewery site, my browser seems to push the Fighter chart on the first page into an unviewable area. Once I downloaded the pdf, it corrected itself, so this may just be in relation to my browser setup.
It looks like you meant to put something after the Indomitable section 13th level. I can't tell if this was meant to be an improvement to Indomitable or if it was supposed to be Martial Expertise.
Which brings me to Martial Expertise. It's in the Fighter chart, but I can't find it anywhere else in the document. It's this way in the pdf I downloaded as well, so I get the impression that this is just a simple proofreading mistake on the document.


Otherwise, I rather enjoyed this and may take some notes from it. Good work, as always! :smallsmile:

GalacticAxekick
2017-05-24, 12:35 AM
I like a couple of the smaller changes here (improving Second Wind, tweaking Extra Attack), I personally think this doesn't address either of the serious problems with the Fighter:

Inside combat, Fighters have few unique round-to-round options. They don't have the tools for area control, dealing buffs or nerfs, defending allies, attacking saves (instead of AC) or really anything but DPS. Possibly contributing to this, the Fighter's tools are all very samey, because there are few mechanical differences between weapons and armours. Fighting Style tries to differentiate, but mostly it makes weapons better at what they're already doing instead of lending new capacities to them.
Outside combat, Fighters have essentially no unique options at all. They can use skills and roleplay to get things done, but so can anyone of any class.

The Battle Master at least has Maneouvres to lend options in combat, but these are limited per rest, and many are just improved versions of options everyone has (disarming, tripping, shoving, improved accuracy, improved damage, improved defense).

And the Eldritch Knight solves the Fighter problem by essentially multiclassing Wizard, and not by creating more martial options.

EDIT: To make this criticism more constructive:

I think Fighters need a martial equivalent to cantrips, or features akin to Eldritch Invocations, in order to be more flexible in combat. These would be useable at will and balanced accordingly, offering alternatives to normal actions and movements rather than upgrades. They might be specialized based on the equipment the Fighter uses (melee vs ranged, light armour vs heavy, shield vs two-handed weapon vs two-weapon, etc), or they might be agnostic to that sort of thing (charging, flanking, parrying, riposting, etc).
I think Fighters need an expanded skill list, at least 3 skill proficiencies, and exploration/interaction features. Fighter archetypes focusing on warrior fitness might gain climbing, swimming, leaping, tumbling, etc, as exploration features. Archetypes focusing on a warlord's knowledge or charisma might offer social tricks.

I also think skills in 5e could afford to be more useful, helping a skilled martial character keep up with an unskilled spellcaster. Some time ago, I brainstormed a more powerful version of Wisdom Medicine (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Bk_qMLV3e) to help martial characters serve as team medic.

DracoKnight
2017-05-24, 06:29 PM
I just wanted to jump on here as I perused and let you know of a couple of issues related to how the content is presented, as opposed to critiques on the actual material.


On the Homebrewery site, my browser seems to push the Fighter chart on the first page into an unviewable area. Once I downloaded the pdf, it corrected itself, so this may just be in relation to my browser setup.
It looks like you meant to put something after the Indomitable section 13th level. I can't tell if this was meant to be an improvement to Indomitable or if it was supposed to be Martial Expertise.
Which brings me to Martial Expertise. It's in the Fighter chart, but I can't find it anywhere else in the document. It's this way in the pdf I downloaded as well, so I get the impression that this is just a simple proofreading mistake on the document.


Otherwise, I rather enjoyed this and may take some notes from it. Good work, as always! :smallsmile:


I like a couple of the smaller changes here (improving Second Wind, tweaking Extra Attack), I personally think this doesn't address either of the serious problems with the Fighter:

Inside combat, Fighters have few unique round-to-round options. They don't have the tools for area control, dealing buffs or nerfs, defending allies, attacking saves (instead of AC) or really anything but DPS. Possibly contributing to this, the Fighter's tools are all very samey, because there are few mechanical differences between weapons and armours. Fighting Style tries to differentiate, but mostly it makes weapons better at what they're already doing instead of lending new capacities to them.
Outside combat, Fighters have essentially no unique options at all. They can use skills and roleplay to get things done, but so can anyone of any class.

The Battle Master at least has Maneouvres to lend options in combat, but these are limited per rest, and many are just improved versions of options everyone has (disarming, tripping, shoving, improved accuracy, improved damage, improved defense).

And the Eldritch Knight solves the Fighter problem by essentially multiclassing Wizard, and not by creating more martial options.

EDIT: To make this criticism more constructive:

I think Fighters need a martial equivalent to cantrips, or features akin to Eldritch Invocations, in order to be more flexible in combat. These would be useable at will and balanced accordingly, offering alternatives to normal actions and movements rather than upgrades. They might be specialized based on the equipment the Fighter uses (melee vs ranged, light armour vs heavy, shield vs two-handed weapon vs two-weapon, etc), or they might be agnostic to that sort of thing (charging, flanking, parrying, riposting, etc).
I think Fighters need an expanded skill list, at least 3 skill proficiencies, and exploration/interaction features. Fighter archetypes focusing on warrior fitness might gain climbing, swimming, leaping, tumbling, etc, as exploration features. Archetypes focusing on a warlord's knowledge or charisma might offer social tricks.

I also think skills in 5e could afford to be more useful, helping a skilled martial character keep up with an unskilled spellcaster. Some time ago, I brainstormed a more powerful version of Wisdom Medicine (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Bk_qMLV3e) to help martial characters serve as team medic.


Thank you both for your feedback! I've been meaning to get back to this project of late, and your responses have sparked my imagination on how to Make the Fighter Great Again For the First Time!

I particularly like the idea of Martial Invocations! Might have to use that! :smallbiggrin:

AngryJesusMan
2017-05-24, 07:01 PM
I particularly like the idea of Martial Invocations! Might have to use that! :smallbiggrin:

I concur. Invocations may be one of my favorite features in all of 5e. :smallwink:

Amnoriath
2017-05-24, 09:57 PM
Between the Second Winds and new Indomitable you have made the Fighter tankier than the Paladin, if not the Barbarian as well. You have given them extra hit points per rest equal to Lay on Hands+5d10. Overall you have given them 390-520 extra hit points to use per day.

DracoKnight
2017-05-24, 11:43 PM
Between the Second Winds and new Indomitable you have made the Fighter tankier than the Paladin, if not the Barbarian as well. You have given them extra hit points per rest equal to Lay on Hands+5d10. Overall you have given them 390-520 extra hit points to use per day.

In playtesting I discovered that I definitely way overtuned their Second Wind - I just haven't updated the file yet.

Amnoriath
2017-05-25, 09:29 AM
I like a couple of the smaller changes here (improving Second Wind, tweaking Extra Attack), I personally think this doesn't address either of the serious problems with the Fighter:

Inside combat, Fighters have few unique round-to-round options. They don't have the tools for area control, dealing buffs or nerfs, defending allies, attacking saves (instead of AC) or really anything but DPS. Possibly contributing to this, the Fighter's tools are all very samey, because there are few mechanical differences between weapons and armours. Fighting Style tries to differentiate, but mostly it makes weapons better at what they're already doing instead of lending new capacities to them.
Outside combat, Fighters have essentially no unique options at all. They can use skills and roleplay to get things done, but so can anyone of any class.

The Battle Master at least has Maneouvres to lend options in combat, but these are limited per rest, and many are just improved versions of options everyone has (disarming, tripping, shoving, improved accuracy, improved damage, improved defense).

And the Eldritch Knight solves the Fighter problem by essentially multiclassing Wizard, and not by creating more martial options.

EDIT: To make this criticism more constructive:

I think Fighters need a martial equivalent to cantrips, or features akin to Eldritch Invocations, in order to be more flexible in combat. These would be useable at will and balanced accordingly, offering alternatives to normal actions and movements rather than upgrades. They might be specialized based on the equipment the Fighter uses (melee vs ranged, light armour vs heavy, shield vs two-handed weapon vs two-weapon, etc), or they might be agnostic to that sort of thing (charging, flanking, parrying, riposting, etc).
I think Fighters need an expanded skill list, at least 3 skill proficiencies, and exploration/interaction features. Fighter archetypes focusing on warrior fitness might gain climbing, swimming, leaping, tumbling, etc, as exploration features. Archetypes focusing on a warlord's knowledge or charisma might offer social tricks.

I also think skills in 5e could afford to be more useful, helping a skilled martial character keep up with an unskilled spellcaster. Some time ago, I brainstormed a more powerful version of Wisdom Medicine (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Bk_qMLV3e) to help martial characters serve as team medic.


1. Except many invocations are upgrades or aren't usable at will. Only a couple are at-will with fewer equaling a constant strategy to utilize in combat. The problem with creating martial cantrips is that it invokes ability privilege over ingenuity of others who primarily use weapons and ability checks. While I agree equipment styles and militarized strategy should take a higher priority in the Fighter class this though feels like it could lead to exclusion of others and overhaul of a lot of others.
2. Perhaps later as invocations give proficiencies as well.
3. There are also skill based feats in which the base Fighter has more of.

GalacticAxekick
2017-05-25, 10:58 AM
1. Except many invocations are upgrades or aren't usable at will. Only a couple are at-will with fewer equaling a constant strategy to utilize in combat.But you understand how the Invocation could be used as a model for a Fighter maneouver system? Beginning at X level, and periodically there after, the class selects from a list of features that expands its capabilities, some with and some without prerequisite.


The problem with creating martial cantrips is that it invokes ability privilege over ingenuity of others who primarily use weapons and ability checks. While I agree equipment styles and militarized strategy should take a higher priority in the Fighter class this though feels like it could lead to exclusion of others and overhaul of a lot of others. I'd like to overall all the martial classes for similar reasons: the Barbarian, Monk and Rogue, like the Fighter, are short of flexibility, while the Ranger substitutes Druid-like spellcasting for true martial options. So this is no issue to me.


2. Perhaps later as invocations give proficiencies as well.Reasonable!


3. There are also skill based feats in which the base Fighter has more of.True!

Feuerphoenix
2017-05-26, 03:03 AM
In playtesting I discovered that I definitely way overtuned their Second Wind - I just haven't updated the file yet.

How about changing the second wind feature to spending hitdiece as a bonus action? This rebalances the amount of healing and has good opportunity costs.

Amnoriath
2017-05-26, 06:32 PM
But you understand how the Invocation could be used as a model for a Fighter maneouver system? Beginning at X level, and periodically there after, the class selects from a list of features that expands its capabilities, some with and some without prerequisite.

I'd like to overall all the martial classes for similar reasons: the Barbarian, Monk and Rogue, like the Fighter, are short of flexibility, while the Ranger substitutes Druid-like spellcasting for true martial options. So this is no issue to me.

Reasonable!

True!

1. In theory but lets keep in mind that feats benefit the Attack action and weapons more than they do spells. Under the current model a Warlock boosts Eldritch Blast only and pact weapons(once and modifies your summoned weapon). Ultimately the Warlock doesn't go much farther than magic weapons, charisma to damage, and push. There could be a lot of synergy here that could outclass the other invocation system.
2. Rogue is not short of flexibility. I haven't seen a sub-class yet that doesn't give great utility or doesn't boost combat. Not to mention the shear ability checks that you are able to pull off with a Rogue. Having all that dice a cantrip system alone would be devastating. This is really sounding like everyone should be a caster when the consistency vs. scarcity ratios are vastly different. This is about a Fighter fix, not a system fix.

Surrealistik
2017-05-26, 06:45 PM
Personally I would restrict Action Surge such that you can't use it to cast spells not granted by Fighter archetypes; eliminates all the issues with it being a too-powerful dip.

I like Feuerphoenix's idea of having Second Wind also allow you to spend HD as if you were taking a short rest (though in addition to its healing). Would consider reducing the number of Second Winds in favour of SW gaining more dice as it scales.