Martial Archetype: Kite Lord

[DracoKnight]

I made a new Martial Archetype that focuses on mobility and skirmishing: Kite Lord (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/S1VkQdQ1e)

[GandalfTheWhite]

I made a new Martial Archetype that focuses on mobility and skirmishing: Kite Lord (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/S1VkQdQ1e)

Seems like it would be a lot of fun to play :smallsmile:

It doesn't play well with two weapon fighting, though. :smallannoyed:

[DracoKnight]

It doesn't play well with two weapon fighting, though. :smallannoyed:

No, not really... Hmmmm... I can see if I can figure something out.

[Rerem115]

Not going to lie, I was hoping that this class would have something more like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_kite). :smalltongue:

[DracoKnight]

Not going to lie, I was hoping that this class would have something more like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_kite). :smalltongue:

HAHAHAHAHA! I want to make that now! :smallbiggrin:

Something like "Martial Archetype: The Duke of Kites."

[DracoKnight]

Added a feature at 3rd level.

[PapaQuackers]

I apologize if this sounds harsh but I'll come out and say it:

This seems like a really lack-luster fighter attempting to approximate the rogue's role in combat.

Kite's Rush: This seems like a slightly better use of Cunning Action Dash, which is quite frankly not all that impressive.

Falconer: The Kite is cute and all but what exactly is this really contributing to the archetype if there's no way to interact with this little guy in tandem with your abilities?

Swift Strike: This is similar to the ability of the Scout from 3.5 and if you're allowing me to Dash as a bonus action that's about 60ft of movement per round usually. That's a possible 4d6 extra damage if I have all 4 of my attacks and I can manage to move around decently which you are promoting that I do since they get disadvantage on attacking me. This drastically increases the DPR of a class that already has really good DPR.

It's not a bad ability but it really doesn't make me feel like I'm doing anything really interesting with the way I play my Fighter. Sure it encourages me to move more, but for what benefit? More damage? I don't need more damage, I need to do more interesting things.


Evasion:
Giving the Rogue evasion to a 10th level fighter is pretty dangerous since they already have great Constitution saves. It'll be very difficult to effect the fighter with any kinds of spells and he's not relying on it to survive like the Rogue is, he's already super beefy.

Fleeting Flight: Flying is a really good benefit. Like, really good. Especially for a class that revolves around moving constantly. Keep in mind you've just given the Tempest Cleric Capstone to the fighter at an earlier level.

Quick Reflexes: Neat, now I've effectively doubled my chances of avoiding a hit for free every round. Why would I ever move for extra damage I don't need when I can just destroy bounded accuracy?


These abilities seem to be cribbed largely from the rogue and don't mesh well with existing fighter abilities. Some of them don't really interact well with each other, and the Capstone is just too powerful.

Once again I'd like to say I don't mean to be harsh, I just feel like this doesn't bring much to the Fighter of the table. It seems like a Rogue Archetype waiting to break free.

[DracoKnight]

I apologize if this sounds harsh but I'll come out and say it:

This seems like a really lack-luster fighter attempting to approximate the rogue's role in combat.

From initial playtest it's actually not lackluster, you just have to use your mobility to your advantage.


Kite's Rush: This seems like a slightly better use of Cunning Action Dash, which is quite frankly not all that impressive.

Maybe your players aren't quite as tactical as mine then.


Falconer: The Kite is cute and all but what exactly is this really contributing to the archetype if there's no way to interact with this little guy in tandem with your abilities?

Scouting is really good. Help action is something that familiars can do.


Swift Strike: This is similar to the ability of the Scout from 3.5 and if you're allowing me to Dash as a bonus action that's about 60ft of movement per round usually. That's a possible 4d6 extra damage if I have all 4 of my attacks and I can manage to move around decently which you are promoting that I do since they get disadvantage on attacking me. This drastically increases the DPR of a class that already has really good DPR.

It's not a bad ability but it really doesn't make me feel like I'm doing anything really interesting with the way I play my Fighter. Sure it encourages me to move more, but for what benefit? More damage? I don't need more damage, I need to do more interesting things.

Then play a battle master for their maneuvers. This is designed to be skirmishing striker, not a controller. If anything, I might give them a stun the first time that they attack a creature, in addition to the 1d6.


Evasion:
Giving the Rogue evasion to a 10th level fighter is pretty dangerous since they already have great Constitution saves. It'll be very difficult to effect the fighter with any kinds of spells and he's not relying on it to survive like the Rogue is, he's already super beefy.

The Kite Lords are supposed to be nimble and quick, good at dodging out of the way. Evasion gives that, and I felt it was better than giving out Uncanny Dodge.


Fleeting Flight: Flying is a really good benefit. Like, really good. Especially for a class that revolves around moving constantly. Keep in mind you've just given the Tempest Cleric Capstone to the fighter at an earlier level.

It's actually the eagle totem, given a level later.


Quick Reflexes: Neat, now I've effectively doubled my chances of avoiding a hit for free every round. Why would I ever move for extra damage I don't need when I can just destroy bounded accuracy?

Hmmm...fair point. How would you fix it?


These abilities seem to be cribbed largely from the rogue and don't mesh well with existing fighter abilities. Some of them don't really interact well with each other, and the Capstone is just too powerful.

I didn't think it was too powerful, seeing as it's something that a Totem Warrior/Monk can do from 5th level.


Once again I'd like to say I don't mean to be harsh, I just feel like this doesn't bring much to the Fighter of the table. It seems like a Rogue Archetype waiting to break free.

Well, we obviously have different opinions on where the archetype belongs.

[PapaQuackers]

From initial playtest it's actually not lackluster, you just have to use your mobility to your advantage.

Okay, but you haven't really changed anything about how I'm playing the actual game. It's a bonus action so you've limited me to not using my Second Wind, but what else am I going to be doing with that bonus action if not dashing constantly? At level 3 what does that dashing really afford me when I'm locked in combat with someone else since there's no other benefits besides moving more each round? Do you really think it stacks up with the spell casting that EKs get or the Maneuvers of the Battle Master? I will grant it's better than the Champion's ability in terms of how it impacts the game though.

Maybe your players aren't quite as tactical as mine then.

That's entirely possible, but the improved movement doesn't seem to contribute that much to play style in a vacuum, and since it's the only ability besides the familiar that I'm getting until 7th level it feels underwhelming.


Scouting is really good. Help action is something that familiars can do.

That's fine, but why am I getting it exactly? What does it contribute to the theme of high mobility and darting around the battlefield? I'm not saying familiars are bad things, I just want to know why it's on the archetype.


Then play a battle master for their maneuvers. This is designed to be skirmishing striker, not a controller. If anything, I might give them a stun the first time that they attack a creature, in addition to the 1d6.

You didn't address the fact that is drastically raises the DPR of the Fighter far higher than the other archetypes. It doesn't have to be battle master level maneuvers in order for it to effect the way that the character is actually played or allow for abilities to have multiple or interesting uses.

I'm not saying I hate the feature, I'm just saying it amounts to lots of damage and is pretty straight forward. Especially since at 7th level most other Fighter's are getting a ribbon ability. This offset a bit by the fact that your third level abilities don't quite stack up as powerfully as the other archetypes but it does lead to the more powerful/interesting aspects of the archetype being farther in the back. It just gives the archetype less appeal.



The Kite Lords are supposed to be nimble and quick, good at dodging out of the way. Evasion gives that, and I felt it was better than giving out Uncanny Dodge.

It might be good thematically but like I said this Fighter is going to be difficult to effect with a multitude of things. It might be even more powerful than giving them Proficiency in Dexterity saves since it ensures half damage on a failed throw. If you couple that with already proficient Constitution saves it leaves only Mind Altering effects to use against this character. This is perhaps the equivalent of a 15th level ability on a fighter I think if you compare it to the other archetypes power gains.

It's actually the eagle totem, given a level later.

Like I said I don't really have a problem with this feature.


Hmmm...fair point. How would you fix it?

Off the top of my head? It's gonna need limited uses or have to compete with a resource that the Fighter will actually have to put a lot of thought into to give up.

You could possibly make it a trigger effect that requires you to do something similar to your movement based abilities. Though I would discourage that because of the criticisms that I put forth earlier.



I didn't think it was too powerful, seeing as it's something that a Totem Warrior/Monk can do from 5th level.

On the monk it's consuming a finite and precious resource in the form of Ki. I don't see any Totem Spirit in the PHB that's offering this ability for free very round as a bonus action so maybe I'm missing it. All I can say that without resources consumed it just amounts to the fighter being twice as difficult to hit every round.



Well, we obviously have different opinions on where the archetype belongs.

Maybe so, but that's not a bad thing!

Like I said none of this is meant to be harsh, I just want to help you improve the archetype in any way that I can.

[DracoKnight]

Maybe so, but that's not a bad thing!

Like I said none of this is meant to be harsh, I just want to help you improve the archetype in any way that I can.

And I thank you for your help!

I'm thinking that I need to add a clause into the 3rd level feature about how you can't use your dash while wielding heavy weapons or wearing heavy armor. That helps get this more to where I want it to be thematically, and on top of that, fixes the DPR problem, since I think I'm going to leave the d6 on their 7th level feature because when something hits at a higher velocity, it's going to hurt more. It makes sense to me.

Evasion on a Fighter is really good. I've seen it on a Rogue 7/Fighter 13. It's solid, but it didn't break anything. Yes, I realize that Fighter gives up its last 7 levels, but the first 7 levels of Rogue are its juiciest.

Honestly, I'm okay with taking the Dodge feature out all together. I just need something to replace it.

[PapaQuackers]

Ok, so here's a good homebrew of the Ranger from the Middle Finger of Vecna that might help and hits pretty close to what I think you're trying to do.

http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2016/02/scout.html

The ability that you've given at 3rd level is a 15th level ability on this class except you can't dash as a bonus action. So I may have underestimated the power of your third level ability. I do acknowledge that this is on the ranger who is obviously dying to be doing ranged combat than a fighter.

Though it does make me realize that using your Archetype I could just avoid melee all together and sit in the back, move 10 feet, shoot someone, and avoid taking damage ever because of the evasion that you gave me.

The Skirmish Strike however, is a more powerful version of your Skirmish like ability but I think it's keeping in mind that the Ranger isn't going to making multiple attacks in a turn. I do think the wording is better though so you may want to adapt that.

The 7th level abilities are pretty neat even if they are static. Extra movement speed makes me want to move more since it lets me fuel my other abilities without having to use an action or a bonus action. The flavor of forced marching thing is cool to.

Advantage on initiative rolls once per day also hits that fast skirmisher feeling too.

So maybe draw some inspiration from this?

[DracoKnight]

Ok, so here's a good homebrew of the Ranger from the Middle Finger of Vecna that might help and hits pretty close to what I think you're trying to do.

http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2016/02/scout.html

The ability that you've given at 3rd level is a 15th level ability on this class except you can't dash as a bonus action. So I may have underestimated the power of your third level ability. I do acknowledge that this is on the ranger who is obviously dying to be doing ranged combat than a fighter.

Though it does make me realize that using your Archetype I could just avoid melee all together and sit in the back, move 10 feet, shoot someone, and avoid taking damage ever because of the evasion that you gave me.

The Skirmish Strike however, is a more powerful version of your Skirmish like ability but I think it's keeping in mind that the Ranger isn't going to making multiple attacks in a turn. I do think the wording is better though so you may want to adapt that.

The 7th level abilities are pretty neat even if they are static. Extra movement speed makes me want to move more since it lets me fuel my other abilities without having to use an action or a bonus action. The flavor of forced marching thing is cool to.

Advantage on initiative rolls once per day also hits that fast skirmisher feeling too.

So maybe draw some inspiration from this?

I've actually read that Ranger, though it's admittedly been a while. And you've pointed out another hole in my proofreading. My 7th level feature was supposed to only function with melee attacks. *facepalm* when I get back to my computer, I'll fix that.

This is where my 3rd level feature came from:


Eagle. While you're raging and aren’t wearing heavy armor, other creatures have disadvantage on opportunity attack rolls against you, and you can use the Dash action as a bonus action on your turn. The spirit of the eagle makes you into a predator who can weave through the fray with ease.

[DracoKnight]

Are there any more thoughts as to how to improve this?