Circle of dominate

[Calthropstu]

3 casters.

1 round of combat.

Wizard one dominates wizard two. Orders domination of wizard three.

Wizard three dominates wizard one.

Before he receives an order to stop, wizard two dominates wizard three.


What happens?

RAW, it kinda looks like they sit there and die of dehydration. Unless they have rings of sustenance or something.

[Inevitability]

No dehydration, at the very least: DP explicitly prevents that.

[Venger]

3 casters.

1 round of combat.

Wizard one dominates wizard two. Orders domination of wizard three.

Wizard three dominates wizard one.

Before he receives an order to stop, wizard two dominates wizard three.


What happens?

RAW, it kinda looks like they sit there and die of dehydration. Unless they have rings of sustenance or something.

So, just to be clear, the initiative order as it were is:

1) A dominates B
2) A orders B to dominate C
3) C dominates A
4) B dominates C

so at the end, B is under A's control, C is under B's control, and A is under C's control.

depending on what standing orders (if any) were left in place, B is the most recent person to take control of the chain, so he would be the one in command. assuming, as the example implies, that the command was "wait for further instruction" or similar, that's what he'd do.

dominate person explicitly says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm) they will eat, drink, breathe, etc to avoid this specific issue, or a PC forgetting to tell one of their slaves to tened to such things


Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth).

[Afgncaap5]

Hmm... I'd never noticed it before, but the wording of the spell says "once you have given a dominated creature a command". Theoretically, a dominated creature still has free will, preferences, and the ability to do other things if no commands are in play. That feels a little at-odds with the usual depiction of the spell. I mean, if I dominate a troll who's about to club me with a club or sword me with a sword then I doubt the troll is going to go clubbing if I just forget to tell it "Hey, stop hitting me", but I suppose by a strict reading it doesn't need to change its activities until an actual order comes into play.

So... I guess in the circle of domination, you might see...

Wizard One: Ahh... so this is being dominated?

Wizard Two: YOU SHALL OBEY ME AND CONTINUE TO BE DOMINATED BY ME!

Wizard Three: Well, yeah, wouldn't dream of doing anything else. Any instructions for me?

Wizard One: Not unless I give him some. Do you... want me to?

Wizard Two: Obey me! OBEY ME!

Wizard Three: I... Maybe?

Wizard One: I totally can if you ask me to.

Wizard Two: Continue to be... DOMINATED!

Wizard Three: I shall continue to be so.

Wizard One: So you're all good then?

And on and on with wizards One and Three in a kind of passive "business as usual but awaiting further instruction" mode, while Wizard Two continues being subject to the order of dominating Wizard Three. Given the standard times this comes into play (like combat) I wouldn't typically require a player to shout instructions if there's some really obvious intended effect of the domination, but in a specific situation like this where there's no fight and it just comes down to the straight up results... maybe something like this?

[Venger]

Hmm... I'd never noticed it before, but the wording of the spell says "once you have given a dominated creature a command". Theoretically, a dominated creature still has free will, preferences, and the ability to do other things if no commands are in play. That feels a little at-odds with the usual depiction of the spell. I mean, if I dominate a troll who's about to club me with a club or sword me with a sword then I doubt the troll is going to go clubbing if I just forget to tell it "Hey, stop hitting me", but I suppose by a strict reading it doesn't need to change its activities until an actual order comes into play.

And on and on with wizards One and Three in a kind of passive "business as usual but awaiting further instruction" mode, while Wizard Two continues being subject to the order of dominating Wizard Three. Given the standard times this comes into play (like combat) I wouldn't typically require a player to shout instructions if there's some really obvious intended effect of the domination, but in a specific situation like this where there's no fight and it just comes down to the straight up results... maybe something like this?

Yeah, that's how the spell actually works.

Generally speaking, I think this falls under an acceptable divorce between IC and OOC knowledge. The same way that if you took a hiatus from your game for a month and come back to resume a scene, your character would remember the name of a noble he was just talking to even when the player wouldn't.

By the same token of logic, if during the planning phase of a combat round you say "i'll cast dominate person on that orc so he'll stop charging me" (trolls are giants so can't be dominated via dominate person) then I think it's fair for your GM to say your character would telepathically command "stop attacking me" when the spell goes off on your turn, even if you the player doesn't immediately say that before giving other commands, even if it's not strictly RAW.

it not needing to change its activities is actually a really important part of why this spell is so popular. given its long casting time, without investment, this spell kind of sucks in combat. part of the reason it's so popular is for its use out of combat, especially in intrigue-heavy games.

Say you're at a meeting with some nobles. through metamagic or similar, such as the conceal spellcasting skilltrick, you are able to cast dominate person undetected on someone.

since you don't need him right now, and don't want to get caught, you forego actually issuing any commands until later. the DC 15 sense motive to tell someone's actually affected by a spell doesn't apply until once you actually tell them to do something.

[Knight Magenta]

Assuming they are all the same caster level, after 10 days or whatever wizard B will be free moments before the others and will be able to throw an extra spell or teleport away.

[Afgncaap5]

By the same token of logic, if during the planning phase of a combat round you say "i'll cast dominate person on that orc so he'll stop charging me" (trolls are giants so can't be dominated via dominate person) then I think it's fair for your GM to say your character would telepathically command "stop attacking me" when the spell goes off on your turn, even if you the player doesn't immediately say that before giving other commands, even if it's not strictly RAW.

Aye, that'd be a fair use, I think. It's a hand-waveable fudging that expedites things while keeping the "reality" of what's happening on task.

And... thanks for the reminder about trolls. Spheres of Power has been spoiling me lately, I'm forgetting to check creature types.



Say you're at a meeting with some nobles. through metamagic or similar, such as the conceal spellcasting skilltrick, you are able to cast dominate person undetected on someone.

since you don't need him right now, and don't want to get caught, you forego actually issuing any commands until later. the DC 15 sense motive to tell someone's actually affected by a spell doesn't apply until once you actually tell them to do something.

Ahh, thanks. I was just starting to wonder about the Sense Motive check and if it applied before the free will was actually being affected. :smallsmile:

[Venger]

Ahh, thanks. I was just starting to wonder about the Sense Motive check and if it applied before the free will was actually being affected. :smallsmile:

If you get into dominate person metastrategy, a popular tactic in high-op play is to constantly dominate yourself as a defense against hostile dominates. When a target is under the influence of multiple dominate effects, its controllers make opposed cha checks against each other to see who gets control when there's a conflict. this is one of the areas where sorcerers have a slight advantage. plus if you ever do anything naughty, NPCs can just make the very low sense motive check and say "clearly it wasn't his fault, he's under a dominate person effect." since there is no mechanical way to know who actually cast a spell.

[Calthropstu]

So, if they can do things until given instruction, Wizard 1 could give the first instruction to wizard 2. I do not believe you can take hostile actions against your master though, so "kill wizard 3" Would not be valid. But, if wizard 1 had something important to him to do, if he ordered "retrieve the blah artifact from the dragon balrghatron" Wizard 2 would do everything he could to retrieve said artifact... including sending an order to wizard 3, who would send an order to wizard 1.

And a new adventuring party is formed.

[Flickerdart]

I do not believe you can take hostile actions against your master though
The spell doesn't make any mention of this. Any wizard could order the wizard down the line to kill that wizard's dominated wizard.

[Segev]

Nothing in dominate says that you control the THOUGHTS of the target, and all the dominate spells put the victim under the telepathic control of the caster.

In our "circle of dominate" situation, all three are free to THINK whatever they like, and use those thoughts to compel the behavior of the others. So while A can compel B to take certain actions, he can't stop B from compelling C to take other ones, and C is still free to compel A to do things even though he can't stop A from compelling B.

Note, however, that changing instructions takes a move action: as long as the actions compelled do not leave time to take a move action, the one so compelled can't change orders given to the one he controls.

[Calthropstu]

Nothing in dominate says that you control the THOUGHTS of the target, and all the dominate spells put the victim under the telepathic control of the caster.

In our "circle of dominate" situation, all three are free to THINK whatever they like, and use those thoughts to compel the behavior of the others. So while A can compel B to take certain actions, he can't stop B from compelling C to take other ones, and C is still free to compel A to do things even though he can't stop A from compelling B.

Note, however, that changing instructions takes a move action: as long as the actions compelled do not leave time to take a move action, the one so compelled can't change orders given to the one he controls.

So if the orders are "Try to kill the one dominating me and order him to release me."

A gives the order to b, then is given the order by c who is given the order by b.

Assuming kill attempts fail:
B ends up controlling C and can double team wizard A. But A would know this given initiative order.

... Puzzle. Find a set of orders for A that will win.

[Zaq]

It's legal ensnarement rather than magical ensnarement, but Lords of Madness describes a similar situation among the incredibly possession-focused neogi, who often end up owning and owned by other neogi. They call a situation where A owns B, who owns C, who ends up owning A, the "great wheel of ownership."

Unfortunately for resolving the Dominate-specific scenario described, Lords of Madness says that neogi who find themselves in a situation like this basically all end up the property of the leader of their tribe, which doesn't really necessarily translate to the Wizards we're talking about. Still, I felt like it was worth mentioning.

[icefractal]

Unfortunately for resolving the Dominate-specific scenario described, Lords of Madness says that neogi who find themselves in a situation like this basically all end up the property of the leader of their tribe, which doesn't really necessarily translate to the Wizards we're talking about. Still, I felt like it was worth mentioning.It would be homebrew, but you could resolve the Dominate circle this way too - the telepathic feedback leaves them all ego-stunned for the duration, so they basically have no volition of their own (outside of survival and things that would give an extra save on Dominate) and just do whatever anyone else says. So if they're alone they just sit around I guess, but if someone else comes along (and realizes what happened) they could have some temporary minions.

Or ... the original Wizard who invented Dominate Person teleports in and reveals that the spell is secretly a pyramid scheme to get more minions. Anyone in a feedback circle falls under that Wizard's control instead. :smallbiggrin:

Now I feel like making a chart (d6):
1 - All the spells end immediately.
2 - Do nothing but that necessary to survival for the duration.
3 - As #2, and obey anyone else who shows up.
4 - All fall under the control of a random person on the same plane who cast a [Compulsion] spell today.
5 - Each round, they all roll opposed Charisma checks - the winner controls the group for that round.
6 - Not dominated, and for the duration they have to make a Will save to obey any order/request from anyone. Goes off what they believe the asker really wants, so obvious reversed statements won't work, but successful Bluffs will ("Please don't throw me in that briar patch", for example)