Would you accept LA+1 to get this

[lylsyly]

+2 Dex
+2 Con
+7 Natural Armor
Fly Speed 60 ft (average maneuverability)
Breath Weapon (30ft Cone of Cold) 1 every 2d4 rds
Spellcasting as 1st level Sorcerer (or +1 lvl of Sorcerer if you already have Sorcerer Levels)

Won't say where I found it (I am sure some recognize it).
Cheesy, Cheesy, Cheesy

Legal source in the group I am playing in.

[WesleyVos]

Yes, yes, and yes. No question, that's easily worth +1 LA, on almost any build.

[Pyromancer999]

Of course, if I'm planning to go Sorcerer/Sorcerer-based gish. I'm guessing this is Dragonspawn or whatever from Dragonlance? I know it's based off of White Dragons.

[AMX]

Just for completeness' sake: LA buy-off allowed or not?

[Flickerdart]

Only if I am a sorcerer.

[lylsyly]

Yes, yes, and yes. No question, that's easily worth +1 LA, on almost any build.

I get to use it on a Dragonfire Adept

[digiman619]

+2 Dex
+2 Con
+7 Natural Armor
Fly Speed 60 ft (average maneuverability)
Breath Weapon (30ft Cone of Cold) 1 every 2d4 rds
Spellcasting as 1st level Sorcerer (or +1 lvl of Sorcerer if you already have Sorcerer Levels)

Won't say where I found it (I am sure some recognize it).
Cheesy, Cheesy, Cheesy

Legal source in the group I am playing in.


Only if I am a sorcerer.

I don't know, that seems like it'd be awesome on an Unchained Monk, with the possibility of going Dragon Disciple into.

[lylsyly]

Of course, if I'm planning to go Sorcerer/Sorcerer-based gish. I'm guessing this is Dragonspawn or whatever from Dragonlance? I know it's based off of White Dragons.

Yep! you got it in one.
Dragonspawn (white) from Dragonlance Campaign Setting p.222.


Just for completeness' sake: LA buy-off allowed or not?.

Yes, sorry shoulda mentioned that :smalleek:.


Only if I am a sorcerer.

Who cares about the Sorcerer Level, +7 Nat Armor? +2 to both Dex and Con? Flight?
Good for about any build.

Been toying around with Dragonfire Adept for the next run. Also been busily reading all the books we have as a group. Just about fell outta me chair when I found this.

As a group we have every 3.0/3.5 book except; 3.0 Psionics Handbook / 3.5 Sons of Gruumsh, Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave, Sinister Spire, City of Stormreach

Also have some third party stuff as well, which the DM takes on a case by case basis (along with Dragon Mag.

[icefractal]

The only case I wouldn't take it without LA buyoff is for a non-Sorcerer caster. With LA buyoff, probably even then.

I did once, in a one-shot where the GM said "bring all your cheese!", combine it, Kobold, and some Dragon archetypes to end up casting as a Sorcerer three levels higher than my level. Good times. Not remotely balanced though.

[eggynack]

Who cares about the Sorcerer Level, +7 Nat Armor? +2 to both Dex and Con? Flight?
Good for about any build.
Nah, you can get comparable things non-sorcerer-wise elsewhere. Not perfectly comparable, and the race would still be LA +!, but it wouldn't really be a worthwhile LA +1. Compare, say, a dragonborn water orc. You get better physical modifiers, albeit tuned against dexterity but towards constitution and strength even more (which is probably better), and you can pick the wings trait for some mediocre flight. You can't get the wings and breath weapon simultaneously, but I've gotta think that the breath weapon is a bit superfluous on any non-magical character (because you already have damage), and that any non-sorcerer caster is going to avoid this like the plague anyway. Is it the same as this LA +1 race? No, not exactly, because it's getting a kinda compromised or trade based version of these things. However, these versions seem to do the job well enough. And the point, then, is that you're basically giving up a level for some natural armor. And getting arguably worse stat mods (the orc gets +4 strength +4 constitution as the upsides). Which, to my mind, seems very much not worth it.

So, yeah, seems mediocre for any build that isn't a sorcerer. Seems great for a sorcerer though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

One thing that people often don't recognize is the value of dipping a single level of a casting class. Sure, the 1st level spells aren't terribly awesome (though they can be; even cantrips), but you also get to use class-restricted items, such as scrolls off the wizard/sorcerer's spell list.

[Ashtagon]

With LA buy off, that looks reasonable at +2 LA, and maybe even at +3 LA.

[Flickerdart]

Who cares about the Sorcerer Level, +7 Nat Armor? +2 to both Dex and Con? Flight?

None of these things are as good as an additional late level of a decent class (especially if you are already planning to multiclass). Would you rather get +7 to NA, +2 DEX, +2 CON, and crappy flight, or time stands still? Dark foresight? Cunning brilliance? Orthos? Soul chakra?

Yeah, if you're deciding between rogue 20 and rogue 19 with this template, the template is better. But if you have real class features, you might not want to mess with them.

[MisterKaws]

Dragonspawn was updated in Races of Ansalom, and it's pretty not good now, so I guess you should talk to your DM and check that.

[SangoProduction]

+2 Dex
+2 Con
+7 Natural Armor
Fly Speed 60 ft (average maneuverability)
Breath Weapon (30ft Cone of Cold) 1 every 2d4 rds
Spellcasting as 1st level Sorcerer (or +1 lvl of Sorcerer if you already have Sorcerer Levels)

Won't say where I found it (I am sure some recognize it).
Cheesy, Cheesy, Cheesy

Legal source in the group I am playing in.

Holy cow. lol. So, for +1 LA, you get casting as a sorcerer_level+1. And then get +7 AC. That alone would be beyond worth it.

[eggynack]

None of these things are as good as an additional late level of a decent class (especially if you are already planning to multiclass). Would you rather get +7 to NA, +2 DEX, +2 CON, and crappy flight, or time stands still? Dark foresight? Cunning brilliance? Orthos? Soul chakra?
That's not even the comparison. The real comparison is between this and both that class level stuff, and the value of a good race. Race has a feat of value as baseline, and there's some real advantage to be gained beyond that.

[Rebel7284]

Wasn't there some serious drawbacks such as letting a dragon no-save dominate you at any time and any distance with this template? Yes "slay the dragon" is a solution that your party can attempt to do, but how that works out depends on a bunch of factors, and you'd probably be dominated to try to prevent that.

[Flickerdart]

That's not even the comparison. The real comparison is between this and both that class level stuff, and the value of a good race. Race has a feat of value as baseline, and there's some real advantage to be gained beyond that.

For some reason I interpreted the OP's post as a template (pay +1 LA, get the stuff) as opposed to a base race. Yes, obviously any additional opportunity cost is a further strike against this option.

[ExLibrisMortis]

White dragonspawn is a template, so you could stack it on top of your ideal base race (provided it's giant, humanoid or monstrous humanoid).


@MisterKaws: I don't see any mention of white dragonspawn in Races of Ansalon. The revised Bestiary of Krynn does have dragonspawn, but it's still very good, better than the Dragonlance Campaign Setting version. With the update, your post-template type becomes dragon, instead of monstrous humanoid, and you can now apply the template to giants.

[lylsyly]

Dragonspawn (white) from Dragonlance Campaign Setting p.222. It is a Template.

Dragonspawn were turned into a race in Dragons of Krynn NOT Races of Ansalon.

DLCS is 1st Party, Dragons of Krynn is 2nd/3rd Party.

I was only asking about the template in general. In specific I am planning on a Whisper Gnome/White Dragonspawn Dragonfire Adept.

[lylsyly]

White dragonspawn is a template, so you could stack it on top of your ideal base race (provided it's giant, humanoid or monstrous humanoid).


@MisterKaws: I don't see any mention of white dragonspawn in Races of Ansalon. The revised Bestiary of Krynn does have dragonspawn, but it's still very good, better than the Dragonlance Campaign Setting version. With the update, your post-template type becomes dragon, instead of monstrous humanoid, and you can now apply the template to giants.

Bestiary is also 3rd party IIRC, We have mmost of the books as a group, but they are spread out amongst the 6 of us.

[Segev]

+2 Dex
+2 Con
+7 Natural Armor
Fly Speed 60 ft (average maneuverability)
Breath Weapon (30ft Cone of Cold) 1 every 2d4 rds
Spellcasting as 1st level Sorcerer (or +1 lvl of Sorcerer if you already have Sorcerer Levels)

Won't say where I found it (I am sure some recognize it).
Cheesy, Cheesy, Cheesy

Legal source in the group I am playing in.

I'm fond of 2-year-old white dragonspawn kobolds (using the "child" template from Game of Thrones d20 for an additional +2 to cha, physical stat penalties, and a -1 LA). Have fun playing a 2nd level sorcerer as a first level PC.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm fond of 2-year-old white dragonspawn kobolds (using the "child" template from Game of Thrones d20 for an additional +2 to cha, physical stat penalties, and a -1 LA). Have fun playing a 2nd level sorcerer as a first level PC.That template is a crock of crap. Children have a -10 to Cha, at least.

*Shudder*

[LoyalPaladin]

I've not only used this template in the past, but I'd totally use it again.

[jdizzlean]

i would throw that on my wild shape based druid/momf/warshaper in a heartbeat at creation, especially since my dm allows LA 1 races at creation at no penalty.

[lylsyly]

i would throw that on my wild shape based druid/momf/warshaper in a heartbeat at creation, especially since my dm allows LA 1 races at creation at no penalty.

As long has your using LA buyoff or in your case having no penalty I can't see a class/race/whatever that this wouldn't benefit.

[Segev]

That template is a crock of crap. Children have a -10 to Cha, at least.

*Shudder*

Your opinion is noted and deemed incorrect. Children are ADORABLE and loads of fun. :smallbiggrin:

One thing I look forward to when I finally fall in love and get married is having a lot of them. Hopefully, my wife - whoever she is - will agree.

[Flickerdart]

Your opinion is noted and deemed incorrect. Children are ADORABLE and loads of fun. :smallbiggrin:

One thing I look forward to when I finally fall in love and get married is having a lot of them. Hopefully, my wife - whoever she is - will agree.

An aboleth is neither adorable nor fun, and yet it has a titanic Charisma score.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Your opinion is noted and deemed incorrect. Children are ADORABLE and loads of fun. :smallbiggrin:

One thing I look forward to when I finally fall in love and get married is having a lot of them. Hopefully, my wife - whoever she is - will agree.Bleh.

But instead of adding to the overcrowding pandemic, why not adopt? Lots of lonely kids need loving parents.

[Troacctid]

Bleh.

But instead of adding to the overcrowding pandemic, why not adopt? Lots of lonely kids need loving parents.
Overcrowding pandemic? On the contrary, I believe we are suffering from a worldwide DM shortage. I say have as many kids as possible, and train them all in the ways of the Dungeon Master so that they can do their part to keep tabletop roleplaying alive.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Overcrowding pandemic? On the contrary, I believe we are suffering from a worldwide DM shortage. I say have as many kids as possible, and train them all in the ways of the Dungeon Master so that they can do their part to keep tabletop roleplaying alive.Pull a Kirito+Asuna and buy an orphanage.

[torrasque666]

Dragonspawn (white) from Dragonlance Campaign Setting p.222. It is a Template.

Dragonspawn were turned into a race in Dragons of Krynn NOT Races of Ansalon.

DLCS is 1st Party, Dragons of Krynn is 2nd/3rd Party.

I was only asking about the template in general. In specific I am planning on a Whisper Gnome/White Dragonspawn Dragonfire Adept.
Do remember that the Bestiary of Krynn (an Official WoTC Licensed Product just like the Magazines which people have used to back claims of updating) notes that anything thats not a Human or Half-elf (and rarely not when applied to Half-Kenders and Half-Ogres) gets another template applied, Abomination. -4 Int, -4 Wis, some additional abilities based on your race, and +1 LA. So really the question is if the bonuses gained in the first post are still worth it when also taking into account the added changes of the Abomination template. Course, one of those mutations is +1 Sorcerer level.

[Ramza00]

It is useful for even a non spellcaster build, where you are playing a fighter type melee build or a rogue type build just for the +1 level of sorcerer, combine with one third of the other things you get (A) Stat Boosts, B) Flight, C) AC Boost). The other stuff A, B, or C is big enough deal to make choosing this option and losing HD, BAB, Saves instead of just taking a level of sorcerer.

Why because a single level of sorcerer gets you Wings of Cover as an immediate action whenever you uses a wand (place the wand in your weapon with a wand sheath) an immediate action that blocks line of effect as well as total cover. If a person is using a fireball and is not targeting you but instead your square, the square gets +8 AC and you get +4 bonus to reflex save.

Effectively it is a 120 GP (per charge) plus an immediate action to tell anyone No, I do not allow.

It is so amazing how many spells, spell like abilities, supernatural abilities, as well as melee and ranged attacks you can stop via blocking line of effect and having total cover.

Oh you also get to add 2 spells known to your spell list and can cast those spells per day.

[LudicSavant]

Given that it's essentially free by mid levels with LA buyoff, there's little reason not to take this in your game. For Sorcerers it's pretty much a straight buff.

[Segev]

Bleh.

But instead of adding to the overcrowding pandemic, why not adopt? Lots of lonely kids need loving parents.

Who says I can't do both? Well, aside from my income-to-debt ratio right now. x_x

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Who says I can't do both? Well, aside from my income-to-debt ratio right now. x_xMy thought is that the more kids one has, the more kids aren't being adopted, and it's not like we need more overpopulation on this planet anyway -- not if we can avoid it. Half the world is starving. Why not alleviate the problem instead of adding to or ignoring it?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Holy crap yes. That's easily a +2 or maybe a +3, WotC really had no idea how to assign LA at good rates.

[weckar]

Stacked this with unseelie, bought them both off.

[Elkad]

Bleh.

But instead of adding to the overcrowding pandemic, why not adopt? Lots of lonely kids need loving parents.

You do realize adopting costs tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of hours of paperwork, and generally requires you to get past a bunch of home inspections and such?
The old-fashioned way is free & fun.

[Flickerdart]

You do realize adopting costs tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of hours of paperwork, and generally requires you to get past a bunch of home inspections and such?
The old-fashioned way is free & fun.
It's free if you want to give birth on the side of the road. Hospital fees stack up, and the expenses for an at-home birth are an order of magnitude higher than it costs at the hospital. If you're lucky enough to live in a country with socialized medicine, you're still paying for that "old-fashioned way" through taxes, for yourself and everyone else in the country.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You do realize adopting costs tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of hours of paperwork, and generally requires you to get past a bunch of home inspections and such?
The old-fashioned way is free & fun.It costs a quarter of a million dollars to raise a perfectly healthy child to adulthood and requires constant care for years to raise an average child. If you're afraid of expenses and aren't willing to actually do work when caring for a kid, then don't have one, because you'll utterly fail as a parent.

And if that child actually has medical problems at any point, expect the expenses and work to skyrocket. And in recent years, the instances of minor to severe mental and physical problems has vastly increased, so your chances of having to spend massive amounts of additional money has increased as well.

[Elkad]

It costs a quarter of a million dollars to raise a perfectly healthy child to adulthood and requires constant care for years to raise an average child. If you're afraid of expenses and aren't willing to actually do work when caring for a kid, then don't have one, because you'll utterly fail as a parent.

And if that child actually has medical problems at any point, expect the expenses and work to skyrocket. And since it's become mandatory to inoculate children, the instances of severe mental and physical problems has vastly increased, so your chances of having to spend massive amounts of additional money increased as well.

Off-topic adoption stuff...

That number is a crock of ****. Sure, SOME people spend that much, but I know people with a household income of $20,000 (and about $6000 in food stamps) raising 5 kids. And people in 3rd world countries do that on a tenth as much and still manage to feed them all and get them schooled.
And even if you do pay that much, you don't need it up front. You need 2 grand for a midwife, and not a lot else. And even the midwife is sorta optional. People have babies all over the world with the assistance of friends&family, or even alone. Just hope you don't have complications.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Off-topic adoption stuff...

That number is a crock of ****. Sure, SOME people spend that much, but I know people with a household income of $20,000 (and about $6000 in food stamps) raising 5 kids. And people in 3rd world countries do that on a tenth as much and still manage to feed them all and get them schooled.
And even if you do pay that much, you don't need it up front. You need 2 grand for a midwife, and not a lot else. And even the midwife is sorta optional. People have babies all over the world with the assistance of friends&family, or even alone. Just hope you don't have complications.Betcha $10 that they don't take proper care of their kids, and that a lot of them lean very heavily on welfare and the government. I make about $20k a year, and I can barely take care of myself -- and that's living in a very inexpensive part of the US, with minimal bills: food, rent, internet, and electricity, and that's it. I can't even afford health insurance for me, so how am I to care for kids when I'm already constantly broke, just from the bills I've got?

[lylsyly]

Do remember that the Bestiary of Krynn (an Official WoTC Licensed Product just like the Magazines which people have used to back claims of updating) notes that anything thats not a Human or Half-elf (and rarely not when applied to Half-Kenders and Half-Ogres) gets another template applied, Abomination. -4 Int, -4 Wis, some additional abilities based on your race, and +1 LA. So really the question is if the bonuses gained in the first post are still worth it when also taking into account the added changes of the Abomination template. Course, one of those mutations is +1 Sorcerer level.

Shhhhhh......., Actually, yes I do know, but if the DM (who owns copies of both, they are what I'm using) lets me build it this way......:smallbiggrin:


Stacked this with unseelie, bought them both off.

Unseelie... Hmm... I do believe I will have to check that out, TY.

[Segev]

My thought is that the more kids one has, the more kids aren't being adopted, and it's not like we need more overpopulation on this planet anyway -- not if we can avoid it. Half the world is starving. Why not alleviate the problem instead of adding to or ignoring it?

Overpopulation is not a legitimate problem. The truth is that the more people there are, the more food and other useful resources they produce over and above that which they consume. There is more empty, unused land than there are people who COULD inhabit it. Poverty and starvation (at least of the "mass" sorts) are the consequences of economic systems and tyrannies plundering the lives of those suffering those conditions more than they are of overpopulation.

That said, adoption is a wonderful thing, because there are so many kids who need it. I have two adopted siblings; I know how hard the system is to work with. But I'm not opposed to it...if I could afford it and could spend the time they deserve with them. There are good reasons why married couples are best for taking care of kids, and time that can be devoted to the kids' care is a big one.

[John Longarrow]

I'd take that template in a heart beat...

Crusader 5 then into Abj Champ? Hmmmmmmm

[Elkad]

Betcha $10 that they don't take proper care of their kids, and that a lot of them lean very heavily on welfare and the government. I make about $20k a year, and I can barely take care of myself -- and that's living in a very inexpensive part of the US, with minimal bills: food, rent, internet, and electricity, and that's it. I can't even afford health insurance for me, so how am I to care for kids when I'm already constantly broke, just from the bills I've got?

I make about that as well, my wife doesn't work. No kids. We bought both a house and a our first NEW car in 2013 and make the payments on both just fine. It gets a little thin when business slows down in the winter and the heat bills are high at the same time, but we saved enough this year we are going to Hawaii for 2 weeks at the end of the month (staying with friends, but I covered airfare from the east coast, a rent-a-wreck for the duration, and have a decent amount of cash to spend while I'm there)

The family I mentioned is relatives of mine. I know EXACTLY how they take care of their kids. Yes, they wear thrift store clothes, but they are healthy and clean. They were living in a 1 bedroom apartment for several years (with 4 preschool boys on a hide-a-bed in the living room), but managed to save enough to pay cash for a(n admittedly terrible) house just before the 5th boy was born, and are slowly fixing it up while living in it. House had good bones and a GIANT lot, but had been empty for over a decade. It needed hundreds of hours of work before they even moved in, and it was a year before the 2nd floor was habitable (or even safe to turn the electrical on in), so it was boarded up to keep the boys out of it until it was ready.