Bleach versus Naruto [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Traab

2016-10-18, 01:30 PM

Now that both series have ended, both main characters have reached their peak, how do they stand in comparison to each other? In truth, to me it seems difficult to pin down their actual power levels, since really all we have to judge them by are the backwash of attacks that obliterate mountains and such, because they are fighting someone or something that can take that hit and thus is not an accurate judge of damage potential. "Pfft, that sword attack only signed ichigos opponent, I see worse burns grabbing a hot pan. Clearly he isnt that strong." /ignores the missing mountain range behind the guy

So experts, pendants, nitpickers and super fans, lets see a breakdown of who is the strongest and why. Make sure to include examples that would prove your stance. None of this, "Pssh its so obvious, sakura would feed chad his feet and make him swallow" Tell us why you think that. "Well in the episode where she punches this guy, it kind of explodes everything in a 50 meter radius while chad has only created far smaller explosions" Too make it clear, feel free to include anyone from either series at their peak. It doesnt have to be just naruto versus ichigo.

Lurkmoar

2016-10-18, 02:56 PM

Flickerdart

2016-10-18, 02:58 PM

We already had this thread. It devolved into "summoning a basic death god in Naruto is a super powerful Kage-level technique, in Bleach they're a dime a dozen, Bleach wins" and comparisons of who could blow up the most mountains while trying the least.

Frozen_Feet

2016-10-18, 03:26 PM

Ichigo doesn't really visibly get more impressive by the end of the series than when he fought Aizen. So there isn't much need to rehash this thread. Naruto remains a much more versatile character, but which one has more raw power is dubious as the measures for that rely on questionable interpretation of still images.

gooddragon1

2016-10-18, 04:12 PM

I side with bleach.

At the end of bleach they're fighting a guy who is trying to (and would have succeeded if not for those meddling kids) rewrite what happens/the reality after people die. He's not just bringing people back from the dead, he's making death pointless. He also managed to somehow avoid being wiped from existence by the guy who uses an ink brush for a weapon*. The guy who had the ability to change reality (aizen/hogyoku) wasn't even the final villain. I personally suspect Kubo took advantage of Naruto ending before his series did and just swung for the fences with power ratings.

Futen Taisatsuryō (不転太殺陵, Slaughterous Mausoleum of Halted Reincarnation): Ichibē brings forth a massive amount of blackness from his surroundings and fills a cup with it before drinking from the cup. After chanting an incantation, Ichibē creates a large mausoleum with a fence in front on top of shattered gravestones out of the blackness. This technique takes away all of the darkness in his opponent, including their flesh, blood, and bones, until nothing is left; their destruction is so absolute that they will not even reincarnate.

Traab

2016-10-18, 04:53 PM

What happens when two glass cannons (relatively speaking, their ability to dish out damage is a lot higher then their ability to take it) fire at each other again?

Did Ichigo have his hollow regeneration at the end? I couldn't tell. Also, in Shinigami form, wouldn't Ichigo be invisible to Naruto? It was Sasuke that got that hax eyes.

IS naruto a glass cannon? I mean, with his full sage fox six paths blah blah blah combo, he was tanking some pretty good shots wasnt he? Similar for ichigo, As I mentioned in my op, its hard to judge things like power and durability by what sort of hits they take, because you have to watch the side effects like huge explosions to see how powerful the attack actually is. Its easy to say, "Well, ichigo got stabbed through the freaking chest AGAIN by a freaking sword, he is so weak." But that ignores when the guy swings his sword and misses, entire buildings are vaporized. Or for naruto when early on its, "Geez, he got a hole punched in him by a teenager, what a wimp." But that ignores the teenager practiced his move by stabbing arm deep holes in giant boulders.

Between those two, I think my main interest was the speed factor between them. Both get absurdly fast when powered up. I dont think either run past a speedometer at any point so its tough to say who is faster, and of course both have building/forest/mountain destroying attacks they can fire off more or less at will. Both take lethal wounds and tend to quickly decide they dont count, both had a problem early on with a "demon" taking them over when they got too worked up/hurt, so I guess its natural to compare them. As for the invisible thing, thats possible. On the other hand, the naruto crew tended to see more than a few ghosts during the big war. Also, while naruto couldnt see maderas limbo, he could sense it well enough to fight and dodge it.

Tvtyrant

2016-10-18, 05:13 PM

LaZodiac

2016-10-18, 10:05 PM

Naruto. At the end of the day the only reason Ichigo killed the god boy is because of hax arrows that shut off his god powers. Naruto's legitimately the reincarnation of a divinity, he's just too strong.

Anteros

2016-10-18, 10:06 PM

LaZodiac

2016-10-18, 11:16 PM

The fight is against one another, not their respective antagonists.

I'm aware of this. Ichigo required the power of a friend to shoot a power nullifying arrow at the future sight god to kill him. Naruto is functionally a god. Naruto wins this fight against Ichigo.

Anteros

2016-10-18, 11:21 PM

LaZodiac

2016-10-18, 11:25 PM

That....literally makes no sense. None of the characters in question are actually gods. Nor is "godhood" something that is useful as a consistent comparison across the settings.

You could just as easily say that Naruto needed Sasuke's help to beat a god in his own setting. Except you wouldn't because it's completely irrelevant for this discussion.

From the opening post.

Tell us why you think that. "Well in the episode where she punches this guy, it kind of explodes everything in a 50 meter radius while chad has only created far smaller explosions" Too make it clear, feel free to include anyone from either series at their peak. It doesnt have to be just naruto versus ichigo.

I am saying that at their peak, Naruto was able to go toe to toe with his universe's god stand in. He required help to BEAT her, but he could hold his own. At Bleach's peak, Ichigo was NOT able to stand up to his god stand in on his own power. Taking them at their peak and assuming all gods are stupidly bull**** powerful and equal, Naruto is stronger than Ichigo.

Anteros

2016-10-18, 11:28 PM

Ichigo's god stand in would be the soul king, not Bach...and there's like 15 characters stronger than it, including Ichigo. By your logic Ichigo surpassed it easily.

Also, assuming they're equal across settings with no actual evidence whatsoever because they share a similar story role is ridiculous.

Traab

2016-10-18, 11:36 PM

From the opening post.

Tell us why you think that. "Well in the episode where she punches this guy, it kind of explodes everything in a 50 meter radius while chad has only created far smaller explosions" Too make it clear, feel free to include anyone from either series at their peak. It doesnt have to be just naruto versus ichigo.

I am saying that at their peak, Naruto was able to go toe to toe with his universe's god stand in. He required help to BEAT her, but he could hold his own. At Bleach's peak, Ichigo was NOT able to stand up to his god stand in on his own power. Taking them at their peak and assuming all gods are stupidly bull**** powerful and equal, Naruto is stronger than Ichigo.

/waggles his hand back and forth. Ehhhh. Not all gods are created equal. After all, to naruto, there is only one shinigami and he is most certainly a god. Heck, you could even call the shiki fuin a freaky version of the espada attack gonzui since it rips out the soul then devours it. Though WAY more powerful. As for naruto universe god stand in, I honestly dont know. She WAS immensely powerful yeah, but she was a human who ate the fruit of a powerful tree. I dont know if she could be counted as a god herself, or just godlike in comparison to most other humans. Ichigo meanwhile is expressly going after a deity isnt he? I admit to losing track of events around the fullbring arc on up so I am unsure.

LaZodiac

2016-10-18, 11:57 PM

Ywach was basically a Jesus who could read the future (he literally said the Spirit King is his father, and his name is ****ing YHVA because has a baby people could touch him to heal their maladies, Ywach's just how they say it in Japan). The only way Ichigo was able to even hurt him was by Ishida shooting an arrow into him that erased all his powers and made him mortal briefly.

ben-zayb

2016-10-19, 12:17 AM

Thing with Naruto, the series, is that strategy can still have an equalizing effect on fights. Even though most of the endgame is pretty much a peen-measuring contest, you can still see a lot of things that aren't "I make a full-attack", "I buff up then make a full-attack", and "I use Eldritch Blast".

Beating people out of your league raw-power-wise is a thing in Naruto, used mostly by Naruto and friends

Anteros

2016-10-19, 12:18 AM

His power is that he wins automatically because he can see and change the future. That's why the Mcguffin was required to beat him. It wasn't a lack of power on Ichigo's part. Naruto wouldn't have been able to do anything to him either.

Beating people out of your league raw-power-wise is a thing in Naruto, used mostly by Naruto and friends

Is there a shonen where this isn't a thing? Even in something like Dragonball it's still a thing.

Frozen_Feet

2016-10-19, 12:23 AM

ben-zayb

2016-10-19, 12:25 AM

Is there a shonen where this isn't a thing? Even in something like Dragonball it's still a thing.I meant using well thought-out and executed tactics, or uber planning, instead of plot-kai, "power of friends" or "just hit harder". Bleach does that, but usually only with brainy types like Aizen, Urahara, Szayel, Mayuri, and Ishida.

Gastronomie

2016-10-19, 12:32 AM

This is unrelated to the topic, but the fact both protagonists are named after foods is interesting.

khadgar567

2016-10-19, 12:50 AM

This is unrelated to the topic, but the fact both protagonists are named after foods is interesting.
can you explain it mate?

Razade

2016-10-19, 12:52 AM

This is unrelated to the topic, but the fact both protagonists are named after foods is interesting.

Not quite. Naruto and Narutomaki are both named after the Whirpool.

ben-zayb

2016-10-19, 01:08 AM

Razade

2016-10-19, 01:22 AM

Nitpick: Uzumaki Naruto, titular character of the Naruto series, was named by Minato after the titular character of his mentor Jiraiya's published novel. That character's name was then inspired by Jiraiya's former student Nagato.

Yeah, in-series. Out of series, he's named after the Naruto Whirlpools. And Naruto Uzumaki is a joke on the food Narutomaki which is also named after the Whirlpool.

LaZodiac

2016-10-19, 02:57 AM

Lord Raziere

2016-10-19, 04:19 AM

Well from what little I've watched of Bleach....they seem to have more limited power sets than Naruto's shinobi.

I mean sure, pure power wise, they're probably in the same normal range of shonen action power- enough to wreck cities, but not planet-busting.

But the Shinobi seem to have a toolkit approach to their power. They're not thinking "I'll beat them with my single power!!" They thinking "how can I use every single possible tool I can to kill my opponent?" All it takes to kill Ichigo really is Shikamaru puppeteering him into stabbing himself. After all, Shikamaru isn't wielding a sword and Ichigo is. Everything else would just be worrying about how to get into position to do so, and Shikamaru is enough of strategical genius to figure out how to do to that to Ichigo whose strategy seems to begin and end with "sword it harder" from what I've seen.

So yeah, if Shikamaru can kill Ichigo.....well Naruto, he has even more tricks. At his most basic, he conjures waves of clones at Ichigo, who die until Naruto learns Ichigo's strategy and powers then he comes with a plan that probably gets Ichigo's sword away from him then begins a brutal beatdown. If he forces Naruto to do more, he can regenerate, call upon the most powerful toad spirits, enter Sage mode, unleash the power of the Nine-Tailed Fox who he is friends with, and even call upon hax weird god powers of his own reincarnation that while I don't remember EXACTLY what they were, I'm pretty sure they were something ridiculous, I forget. And combine all those in various ways that would make a Mt:G player feel proud for some hax combo.

Even if Bleach has a slight power advantage, it doesn't matter. For power to win against tactics, it has be overwhelming to the point where nothing the ninjas do can work, and Bleach isn't at that level. Plus the ninjas could figure out some tricky way of getting more power ANYWAYS, because they aren't going to just say "oh no they're more powerful than us, oh well" they're going to say "ok, how can we utilize our resources to reconfigure ourselves so that we ARE powerful enough to defeat them in the shortest most efficient time possible? whats our strategy for that?"

and if Ywhach's weakness is basically "misdirect him a bunch of times" then the Shinobi have got that down to a science or an art, because almost every ninja does that.

the rest of Bleach, seems to operate on limited powers so its like:
Aizen: meet Sasuke. he is immune to your illusions and can inflict illusions back. and also knows lightning, black fire that can't get put out, and various hax stuff of his own.

Seireitei: oh hey, look at all your special powers, thats nice. Watch as the Shinobi kill you all in your sleep with kunais and even with waking up and ready to battle, watch as they correctly deduce that your weapons are the source of your power and start disarming you. after all, your basically a bunch of samurai with very powerful swords use to fighting bestial monsters going up against tac-ops ninja-wizards who have honed their techniques and killing instincts over three to four ninja wars across multiple generations from having to plan, counterplan and develop techniques and strategies beyond "hit it harder" if they wanted to win.

because I'm not gonna lie.....a big weakness of Ichigo seems to be "I need sword to kill things" as well as all of the Seireitei and probably all the villains as well if what I know is any indication. while Naruto and Shinobi ARE the weapons. thats the basic difference between Bleach and Naruto right there: in Bleach they wield weapons, in Naruto you ARE the weapon.

HandofShadows

2016-10-19, 05:09 AM

Have not seen Naruto, but what I am seeing here is a LOT of piss poor logic. This thread is pitting Ichigo vs Naruto. This is NOT pitting Ichigo vs a Naruto series villian or Naruto vs a Bleach seris villian or comparing the series villians. This is called the Fallacy of Irrelevant Thesis. Ichigo's and Naruto powers and ablities are the ONLY thing to be considered. Doing anything else is avoiding the question at hand.

Also I have been seeing people make inaccurate staments about Ichigo. He is not "hit it harder with a sword." Ichigo is a expert martial artist and is stated at being able to "read" the people he is fighting (figureing out their moves ahead of time). He does not use a lot of fancy foot/swordwork because he learned it "on the job" and goes for raw effectivness rather than style.

khadgar567

2016-10-19, 05:36 AM

on ground to ground probably naruto wins but the moment shunpo becomes available naruto is hosed unless he uses sage or kurama but still my vote on strawberry kun

danzibr

2016-10-19, 09:12 AM

I'll echo others that have said it's not clear at all how strong Ichigo was at the end. He got a new bankai, then it got broken. It got fixed, then freaking broken again. In fact, I don't remember any impressive displays of power from Ichigo after he fought Aizen. He cleared a rainy sky with a Gestuga Tenshou, his blood hardened when he was going to get stabbed (or something like that), and got his butt kicked a couple times.

But also... I don't know much of Naruto past the Pain arc.

Traab

2016-10-19, 09:42 AM

I could see an argument for Yhwach being stronger than Kaguya. Dude can proactively dictate the future.

However, this isn't about which series has a more powerful villain, it's about which has a stronger protagonist.

And Ichigo's showing against Yhwach is piss-poor. Ichigo & Orohime going full power against Yhwach makes no difference at all - they need help from Tsukiyama, Aizen and Ishida to get anything done. Two of those tree have some of the most broken powers in the series and third explicitly nullifies the villain's abilities.

I could argue Ichigo would job as badly against Kaguya simply because he lacks all the tricksy powers he would need to defeat her. Even at the end of the series, Ichigo only has air-walking, superhuman strength, speed and dexterity, and sword lasers. Kaguya has at-will planeshift, acid bones, extreme regeneration, hypersensory perception and is quite possibly completely immortal, requiring sealing techniques to overcome.

By contrast, I think Naruto would fare much better against Yhwach. Why? Look at how Yhwach was defeated. Not by just raw power, but by tricking him into thinking what he saw was something different than it actually was. Naruto can clone himself and shapeshift, so he could pull similar gambits as Aizen and Ichigo did all on his own. And this wouldn't be even all that odd for Naruto, because he performs similar tricks several times during his series, including against Kaguya!

I will point out that, although I dont recall ichigo ever USING them, the bleach universe has many many sealing techniques in their list of kido abilities. Such as the one that beat aizen, and the one aizen tried to use on ichigo which he shattered because he was basically going narutoverse 8 gates on the guy. And considering naruto never used sealing techniques beyond maybe a storage scroll until that last day, it isnt unreasonable to think the shinigami squad would have figured that out and taught ichigo how to use it.

With those who pointed out that most of the bleach characters are worthless without their words, yep, that is true of a lot of them, but as I said, the well rounded captains can also blast off all sorts of magical jutsuish techniques, and of course there is the general who may very well be Gais grandfather considering his ability to just punch giant monsters through buildings. Someone like ichigo would be pretty boned though.

*EDIT* They do have experience with stealthy killers though. The entire second division are exactly that. Throat slit in the middle of the night speedy sneaky killers. Im not saying ninja arent better at it, just pointing out that a local equivalent does exist.

Flickerdart

2016-10-19, 09:58 AM

*EDIT* They do have experience with stealthy killers though. The entire second division are exactly that. Throat slit in the middle of the night speedy sneaky killers. Im not saying ninja arent better at it, just pointing out that a local equivalent does exist.

Experience with stealthy killers might be the opposite of helpful when Naruto is concerned. :smallamused:

Traab

2016-10-19, 10:03 AM

Experience with stealthy killers might be the opposite of helpful when Naruto is concerned. :smallamused:

Rofl true, but considering they have been dealing with ichigo lately and KENPACHI for awhile now, I think howling mad barbarians charging face first at you with raw power and speed wont be much of a shock either. :smallbiggrin: Heck, they might find orochimaru downright BORING in comparison to their own mad scientists.

Flickerdart

2016-10-19, 10:16 AM

howling mad barbarians charging face first at you with raw power and speed
What about attractive nude young women strategically obscured by clouds of smoke no jutsu?

ben-zayb

2016-10-19, 10:23 AM

Also I have been seeing people make inaccurate staments about Ichigo. He is not "hit it harder with a sword." Ichigo is a expert martial artist and is stated at being able to "read" the people he is fighting (figureing out their moves ahead of time). He does not use a lot of fancy foot/swordwork because he learned it "on the job" and goes for raw effectivness rather than style.Yeah, I'm gonna wait for scans on just how good Ichigo is at reading his opponents, then let's compare it to the intricacies of Naruto's later tactics. I'll wait.

-D-

2016-10-19, 10:25 AM

What about attractive nude young women strategically obscured by clouds of smoke no jutsu?
I doubt either Ichigo or Kenpachi would care? Kenpachi especially.

Traab

2016-10-19, 11:02 AM

I doubt either Ichigo or Kenpachi would care? Kenpachi especially.

I dunno, I think it would at the very least startle and discomfort ichigo, even if only briefly. It doesnt need to send them blasting off like team rocket from a monster nosebleed to do its job of distracting a person. Also it might depend on WHO he copies. Standard naruko might not work well on ichigo, but what about suddenly seeing barely obscured nude orihime?

Anteros

2016-10-19, 11:19 AM

Traab

2016-10-19, 11:48 AM

If we want to talk adversaries then Naruto would never even make it to Bach. Aizen would roflstomp him. He couldn't beat Bach either since he has no way of nullifying his power.

Meanwhile, Naruto's final battle was basically won by hitting things really hard which Ichigo is even better at than he is.

I dunno, would aizens power work on kurama considering he is sealed inside of naruto and not able to actually look at aizens blade? Or do you just mean aizen is way too powerful in combat ability for naruto to beat?

HandofShadows

2016-10-19, 11:53 AM

Yeah, I'm gonna wait for scans on just how good Ichigo is at reading his opponents, then let's compare it to the intricacies of Naruto's later tactics. I'll wait.

You can read it on the Bleach wiki actually. http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Ichigo_Kurosaki "Despite his somewhat punkish attitude, Ichigo is analytical, perceptive, and deductive. In his high school, Ichigo's grades are almost always near the top, despite his work as a Substitute Shinigami. Aside from that, Ichigo can determine the pattern of his opponent's battle methods and form a proper counter-strategy to defeat his opponent's attacks."

If your looking for in manga references Ichigo's 2nd battle with Ulquiorra Cifer where Ichigo directly mentions that he HAD trouble reading Ulquiorra in the first battle. Ichigo still lost when Ulquiorra pulled out another super powered form, but Ichigo then returned the favor when his Inner Hollow came out and curb stomped him.

Flickerdart

2016-10-19, 02:16 PM

I doubt either Ichigo or Kenpachi would care? Kenpachi especially.

It worked on Kaguya.

I dunno, I think it would at the very least startle and discomfort ichigo, even if only briefly. It doesnt need to send them blasting off like team rocket from a monster nosebleed to do its job of distracting a person.
This.

Also it might depend on WHO he copies. Standard naruko might not work well on ichigo, but what about suddenly seeing barely obscured nude orihime?
Maybe also this..

You can read it on the Bleach wiki actually. http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Ichigo_Kurosaki "Despite his somewhat punkish attitude, Ichigo is analytical, perceptive, and deductive. In his high school, Ichigo's grades are almost always near the top, despite his work as a Substitute Shinigami. Aside from that, Ichigo can determine the pattern of his opponent's battle methods and form a proper counter-strategy to defeat his opponent's attacks."

If your looking for in manga references Ichigo's 2nd battle with Ulquiorra Cifer where Ichigo directly mentions that he HAD trouble reading Ulquiorra in the first battle. Ichigo still lost when Ulquiorra pulled out another super powered form, but Ichigo then returned the favor when his Inner Hollow came out and curb stomped him.
A summary from a fan wiki is not a source.

Anteros

2016-10-19, 02:26 PM

A summary from a fan wiki is not a source.

It's more than the guy he was responding to provided for his own arguments.

If sources are going to be required for everyone's statements, it has to apply to both sides.

HandofShadows

2016-10-19, 03:35 PM

Interesting that he ignored the manga mention of it as well.

ben-zayb

2016-10-19, 08:30 PM

If your looking for in manga references Ichigo's 2nd battle with Ulquiorra Cifer where Ichigo directly mentions that he HAD trouble reading Ulquiorra in the first battle. Ichigo still lost when Ulquiorra pulled out another super powered form, but Ichigo then returned the favor when his Inner Hollow came out and curb stomped him.So Ichigo had problems reading Ulquiorra's sophisticated routine that consists of "Attack with weapon" and "Move/Flip" before, but was able to do so after his power upgrade? That's really impressive, especially since we can see just how good a fight tactician Ulquiorra is, right? It's not like he is the epitome of "Style over Substance" cliche fighting style.

Although I guess Ulq buffing-up and adding "Attack with two types of Edritch Blast" made the routine far too complicated again for Ichigo to read until his next power up, and until then we're left with Ichigo doing his trademark (0_0), which I suppose translates to "Don't worry Inoue, I can read my opponents just fine".

MorgromTheOrc

2016-10-20, 03:43 AM

Personal answer: Whichever one I like more.
Real answer: Whoever writes the crossover's favorite.

There is really no way to measure this, as neither makes any attempt to create a consistent power level. Bleach is probably higher level, since the super famous blast battle crater (http://images5.fanpop.com/image/quiz/832000/832826_1334151900939_477_355.jpg) is not that large by bleach explosion scale (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111201485/4503139-8433515754-maxre.jpg). But Naruto also has a moon sized monster-witch, so who knows.

Edit: At least we know for sure that they beat out HunterxHunter, as atomic bombs are still the strongest weapon in that series and are clearly none-threatening in Bleach.

Bit of a nitpick, you didn't picture the crater, that waterfall runs into the crater which is larger than a modern city, becoming a lake so large you can't even make out where the statues are when you zoom out to it. I couldn't find a decent image of it easily so instead for reference here's the crater made by Pain that is the exact size of the whole village.http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/naruto/images/2/28/Destroyed_Konoha.png/revision/latest?cb=20100617153332 And it is massively smaller than the famous crater you mentioned, which is massively smaller than the average crater made during the final great ninja war.

Now I personally believe that Naruto does have more raw power but even if it wasn't the case the previously mentioned Kaguya had literally infinite power and insane reality warping powers, and even with that all her attacks meant assured instant death to anyone they landed on no matter their power. But she was still defeated using strategy despite all of that, like almost all Naruto villains. So given that strategy is barely existent in Bleach Naruto has an almost guaranteed win.

Because power scaling is unreliable I'm willing to go with Ichigo and Naruto have equal power, but even in that case Naruto is a 20th level wizard and Ichigo is a 20th level fighter or barbarian at best, and not even one with creative use of their WBL, just shoveling it all into making their attack stronger and work over mid-range. While Naruto focuses on creative use of his power, the actual extent of that raw power being mostly irrelevant despite how massive it may be by the end. Even if you want to say you believe Ichigo is more powerful the most favorable comparison you could possibly argue is Naruto is only a level 15 wizard to Ichigo's 20th level barbarian, and he's still not winning in that. But everyone's basically already said all of this so I'll leave it at that.

Oh and two more nitpicks I didn't remember to multiquote when writing this, it specifically says in the OP to also compare other characters so I don't know how you got it in your head that we shouldn't talk about anyone but Naruto and Ichigo. And on Ichigo reading opponents, that's just basic competency with fighting, anyone other than a beginner in any martial art will match that description, and the entire Naruto world is filled with people who've been training similar fighting skills and more since birth. Not to mention your example just proves that Ichigo has no real ability to strategize more than anything else, with him just powering up to finish it.

-D-

2016-10-20, 06:21 AM

Well thing is depending on circumstances either could win. While nine tail fox could blow up Ichigo. Ichigo at full power could kill beast mode Naruto. If his blade can hurt Ywhax, a being that has to rewrite time to not die to it, I'm fairly sure Naruto is dead, even if nine tails is indestructible.

HandofShadows

2016-10-20, 09:45 AM

Oh and two more nitpicks I didn't remember to multiquote when writing this, it specifically says in the OP to also compare other characters so I don't know how you got it in your head that we shouldn't talk about anyone but Naruto and Ichigo. And on Ichigo reading opponents, that's just basic competency with fighting, anyone other than a beginner in any martial art will match that description, and the entire Naruto world is filled with people who've been training similar fighting skills and more since birth. Not to mention your example just proves that Ichigo has no real ability to strategize more than anything else, with him just powering up to finish it.

While the entire Naruto would is full of people who have been at martial arts their entire lives, (Actually that description works for Ichigo because of his father a high level Soul Reaper and constantly "tested" him) Bleach has characters that have been doing it for centuries. Byakuya is young and has been in training for something like 150 years. And Ichigo was able to fight him on equal terms after minimal training with his powers.

Traab

2016-10-20, 10:32 AM

While the entire Naruto would is full of people who have been at martial arts their entire lives, (Actually that description works for Ichigo because of his father a high level Soul Reaper and constantly "tested" him) Bleach has characters that have been doing it for centuries. Byakuya is young and has been in training for something like 150 years. And Ichigo was able to fight him on equal terms after minimal training with his powers.

That was honestly one of the things that annoyed me about that whole arc. Ichigo manages to go from being so pathetic byakuya can casually stab him to "death" while under heavy restrictions and not using the slightest bit of power from his sword, to being more or less equal to him, and most of that improvement comes from all the fighting he does over the course of a fairly short time wise arc. Im fine with power boosts and such, its how these anime work, but he went from bottom rung loser of a shinigami to high end captain level in like, a month.

As far as my personal opinion goes, I think naruto has a large edge over ichigo just because of the sheer flexibility. Ichigos powers are, "swings sword hard" and "swings sword hard from a distance" (yes im oversimplifying) Meanwhile naruto at his peak has a full mastery over the elements, and is deadly at close medium and long range. Im talking casually flinging around blasts on par with the aizen fight where ichigo got his arm burned, only composed of various elements like lava, a swarm of billions of razor blades, and god knows what else. Its not just a concussive explosion he can set off is my main point. He can create fully functional copies of himself, not just pull crap like, "Im so fast I leave copies of myself behind" like in the Zommari Rureaux fight. So ichigo has no way to get a breather. He comes in close and is taking blows from someone who can match him physically and has an extra 9 limbs to work with, if he retreats to long range he is tanking nukes on rapid fire. Even if their stats are fairly close when it comes to things like speed, strength, durability, and power, the sheer flexibility of naruto would be overwhelming.

Sasuke would be mega hax against most of the Bleach universe just with his eye powers letting him mind break everyone. If that does fail, he is also ridiculously powerful and flexible on par with naruto. About the only thing they COULD deal with is susanoo, seeing as how its basically a different version of Sajin Komamura and his bankai. Though not as limited. I think most of the rest of the naruto crew would fit in well with the bleach cast though. Naruto and sasuke are both just freaking broken by the end of the series.

HandofShadows

2016-10-20, 11:09 AM

The first time Ichigo had Soul Reaper Powers they weren't really his and he almsto no real control of them. But still he was able to surive a fight with Grand Fisher one of the more powerful Hollows that the SS had been hunting him for over 50 years. Grand Fisher had killed a number of Soul Reapers during that time. So he was not "lowest of the low" by any means even then.

As for Ichigo's powers you missed a great deal. Ichigo is blinding fast with Flash Step and certainly one of the top ten in the SS when it comes to raw speed. That puts him on the level of Suì-Feng even if he does not have all the techniques. For speed and reaction time he counter attacked a surprise attack by one of the Royal Guard and no one else even saw it. (As a note this guy was able to outpace Suì-Feng.) Ichigo is also very strong able to throw multipule Sternritter with ease (and basicaly though buildings) with no strain. He is also very durable and able to continue fighting despite injuries that would kill other Soul Reapers (and normal people many times over). And that does not count his Blunt Vene which gives him massive damage resistence.

Somensjev

2016-10-20, 11:37 AM

As for Ichigo's powers you missed a great deal. Ichigo is blinding fast with Flash Step and certainly one of the top ten in the SS when it comes to raw speed. That puts him on the level of Suì-Feng even if he does not have all the techniques. For speed and reaction time he counter attacked a surprise attack by one of the Royal Guard and no one else even saw it. (As a note this guy was able to outpace Suì-Feng.)

This is a fair point, however, Naruto is as fast, if not faster. Naruto is faster than a man who effectively moves and reacts at the speed of lightning. (citation needed)

Ichigo is also very strong able to throw multipule Sternritter with ease (and basicaly though buildings) with no strain.

I can't recall the largest item Naruto lifted in base strength, however, in sage mode, he was able to lift large stone statues (with slight effort, though that was when he first learnt sage mode), and in kyuubi mode he was able to effortlessly stack large stone pillars on top of each other.

He is also very durable and able to continue fighting despite injuries that would kill other Soul Reapers (and normal people many times over). And that does not count his Blunt Vene which gives him massive damage resistence.

That's all well and good, but i'm not sure if it'd help with being cut at the molecular level, among other things.

While A-game Ichigo is strong, i'm not sure he'd be strong enough to go toe to toe with A-game Naruto.

Edit:
@Snark towards Naruto's "stealth": You try painting mt rushmore in bright orange clothes without anyone noticing. :smalltongue:

Flickerdart

2016-10-20, 11:42 AM

"Dude is so fast that he moves instantly" + "dude is so tough that he fights on when others couldn't" + "dude is hella strong" are basic Shonen main character traits. Everyone can do them.

Traab

2016-10-20, 12:19 PM

Anteros

2016-10-20, 12:30 PM

I really don't know why people in this thread are acting like Naruto is some sort of versatile tactical genius. He's Naruto. He's a freaking idiot. He hits things as hard as he can, and sometimes he splits into clones and hits things slightly less hard, but more often.

He's not Sun Tzu at the end of the manga. He's still just hitting things as hard as he can, except faster, and with better stamina. He's stronger and faster than everyone else, so it works, but he's still a moron.

Ok, so he can swing his sword really fast and really hard then. I didnt bring up his base stats because I was more talking about what sort of combat abilities he has. Ichigo has his sword, he has his sword blasts and....? Naruto has taijutsu, I believe he has bojutsu with the sage of six paths staff deal, he has mid to long range attacks of many different elements with multiple effects. Bottom line, naruto has far greater versatility than ichigo.

It's not like you're going to separate a shinigami from their sword since it's a part of their being, so having "just" sword attacks isn't actually a detriment at all. He's never going to have to fight unarmed.

If we want to talk versatility, Ichigo also can close range attacks, long range attacks (does element matter? It's not an RPG. Naruto isn't weak to ice damage.), Bankai, and a hollow mode that I'm pretty sure Naruto has no way to kill since he's not a soul reaper or a quincy.

Somensjev

2016-10-20, 12:36 PM

I really don't know why people in this thread are acting like Naruto is some sort of versatile tactical genius. He's Naruto. He's a freaking idiot. He hits things as hard as he can, and sometimes he splits into clones and hits things slightly less hard, but more often.

He's not Sun Tzu at the end of the manga. He's still just hitting things as hard as he can, except faster, and with better stamina. He's stronger and faster than everyone else, so it works, but he's still a moron.

While Naruto isn't the smartest character, he has shown some unique tactics, from unexpected distractions, to unconventional hiding places (such as becoming the scenery mid-fight).

His default and fall back plan is hit hard, yes, however, it's not the maximum height of his tactical choices.

you're not wrong, just, not entirely right.

Edit: you seem to have edited while i was replying.
Okay, hopefully this addresses the other points you raised

There would be many ways to separate a shinigami from their sword, such as removing arms, or breaking the sword, as far as i could tell neither would be exceptionally difficult.

Close range attacks, ichigo has his sword, and some decent hand-to-hand.
Whereas naruto has his brawler style, the more powerful frog-kata, and some kunai, and wind-natured chakra, his staff, and truth seeking orbs.

Long range, ichigo has getsuga tensho, and maybe a cero?
Naruto has ball of razors, ball of lava, ball of steam, ball of acid, ball of sand(y stuff), truth seeking orbs, kunai and shuriken (with wind chakra), etc.

Bankai/hollow mode meets sage mode, kyuubi mode, sage of six paths mode, etc.

As for not being able to kill him, that would depend on if shinigami function like madara's limbo, or something else.

gooddragon1

2016-10-20, 01:00 PM

While Naruto isn't the smartest character, he has shown some unique tactics, from unexpected distractions, to unconventional hiding places (such as becoming the scenery mid-fight).

His default and fall back plan is hit hard, yes, however, it's not the maximum height of his tactical choices.

you're not wrong, just, not entirely right.

Edit: you seem to have edited while i was replying.
Okay, hopefully this addresses the other points you raised

There would be many ways to separate a shinigami from their sword, such as removing arms, or breaking the sword, as far as i could tell neither would be exceptionally difficult.

Close range attacks, ichigo has his sword, and some decent hand-to-hand.
Whereas naruto has his brawler style, the more powerful frog-kata, and some kunai, and wind-natured chakra, his staff, and truth seeking orbs.

Long range, ichigo has getsuga tensho, and maybe a cero?
Naruto has ball of razors, ball of lava, ball of steam, ball of acid, ball of sand(y stuff), truth seeking orbs, kunai and shuriken (with wind chakra), etc.

Bankai/hollow mode meets sage mode, kyuubi mode, sage of six paths mode, etc.

As for not being able to kill him, that would depend on if shinigami function like madara's limbo, or something else.

I'd like to note that this assumes comparability.

Yugioh monsters have attack ratings of thousands. MTG ones have printed ones that hit double digits at best.

It's possible the truth seeking orbs hit for 1 point of damage or a million or are save vs death.

It's possible that the reason that bleach isn't doing more scenery damage is that the effects are a lot of energy compacted into a small space (further evidenced by the mention that bankai are generally not the size of skyscrapers).

My personal interpretation is then to look at what they are fighting.

Naruto is fighting someone who can travel to several planes of existence (I think she created them) and maybe control them to some extent.
Ichigo had to fight against someone who is making the entire concept of death irrelevant (not by bringing people back or making them immortal, but by making the realm and concept of death no longer exist). He had tremendous help in the fight, but the guy admitted that he destroyed bleachigo's bankai because he respected it's power. He was also cut in half after the fact (how much of that was due to him being nerfed by the arrow I couldn't say).

The attacks may not be as flashy, but personally I'd just say bleach's power has been more concentrated for the most part. Just imo.

Mato

2016-10-20, 01:28 PM

Bleach, obviously.

We had a full on theoretical maximum power thread back that wasn't the greatest. But a large point to take away from it was Naruto was taken to be the ten-tail host and nothing in Naruto's universe is more powerful than that. Kaguya was just another host and not even the first one to move between dimensions. The Last was just six-sage vs variant six-sage mode, and Boruto was just a guy that could only use Preta path's powers trying to steal just the nine tails because they thought they could copy the fruit Kaguya ate but that made them six Rinnegan powers, a mangekyou sharingan, and eight tailed beats short of Madara.

And he had problems meeting speed feats of the Fullbringer Ichigo or depending on the scale of Hueco Mundo the power feats of Hollow-only Ichigo. Since then we've learned Ichigo wasn't using his Hollow powers against Aizen, Ichigo gained some new invincible armor and yet another power source that provides even more invincibility and comes with another super saiyen god mode that he should have learned to use over the ten year time skip. The unbelievably broken Vollstandig and unrevealed bankais that were shown, and power boosts obtained during that arc provided a crazy power increase to the world of Bleach. We're even shown Aizen really hasn't lost any power (and might even be stronger) but he's still knocked out in one shot by a a subordinate who turned out to have an invincible eye technique and two more transformations left over.

Complaining Yawach took a team effort to kill I feel also missed the entire point that it was completely impossible for Naruto, who was a conglomeration of nine different tailed beasts, the local natural energy, and the Sage of Six Paths reaching across time for a McGruffian power increase, to seal Kaguya on his own. Both protagonists lived up to their media and needed help to beat their respective antagonist.

Traab

2016-10-20, 01:29 PM

I really don't know why people in this thread are acting like Naruto is some sort of versatile tactical genius. He's Naruto. He's a freaking idiot. He hits things as hard as he can, and sometimes he splits into clones and hits things slightly less hard, but more often.

He's not Sun Tzu at the end of the manga. He's still just hitting things as hard as he can, except faster, and with better stamina. He's stronger and faster than everyone else, so it works, but he's still a moron.

It's not like you're going to separate a shinigami from their sword since it's a part of their being, so having "just" sword attacks isn't actually a detriment at all. He's never going to have to fight unarmed.

If we want to talk versatility, Ichigo also can close range attacks, long range attacks (does element matter? It's not an RPG. Naruto isn't weak to ice damage.), Bankai, and a hollow mode that I'm pretty sure Naruto has no way to kill since he's not a soul reaper or a quincy.

My point wasnt about separating ichigo from his sword, it was about options. All ichigo HAS is his sword. If that doesnt work his only option is too keep swinging until it does. If naruto cant punch something he stabs it. If he cant stab it he rasengans it. If THAT fails he has sage mode demonic sage mode six paths mode, each has different abilities and advantages. If all that also fails he has trickery to work with as well. Naruto has options. Ichigo has sword, bankai gets him faster sword, and hollow mode is crazy sword. As for elements they matter because they cause his attacks to do different things.

Frozen_Feet

2016-10-20, 03:51 PM

The point about Sexy no Jutsu is hilarious, because Ichigo is bit of a prude, as shown by him being easily agitated by Yorouichi and Orihime's cleavage. He also has some personal hang-ups about hitting girls, as shown in his confrontation with Candice Catnip.

So yeah. In a one-on-one, Sexy no jutsu would be exactly the sort of thing to catch Ichigo off guard.

Anteros

2016-10-20, 04:03 PM

My point wasnt about separating ichigo from his sword, it was about options. All ichigo HAS is his sword. If that doesnt work his only option is too keep swinging until it does. If naruto cant punch something he stabs it. If he cant stab it he rasengans it. If THAT fails he has sage mode demonic sage mode six paths mode, each has different abilities and advantages. If all that also fails he has trickery to work with as well. Naruto has options. Ichigo has sword, bankai gets him faster sword, and hollow mode is crazy sword. As for elements they matter because they cause his attacks to do different things.

How is this different from saying that if Ichigo can't punch something he stabs it, if he can't stab it he uses getsuga tensho, if THAT fails he has bankai, hollow mode, final getsuga tensho, fullbring, and quincy powers, each with different abilities and advantages?

The vast majority of Naruto's options that you're listing are just different forms he takes before he punches things.

Lord Raziere

2016-10-20, 04:51 PM

While the entire Naruto would is full of people who have been at martial arts their entire lives, (Actually that description works for Ichigo because of his father a high level Soul Reaper and constantly "tested" him) Bleach has characters that have been doing it for centuries. Byakuya is young and has been in training for something like 150 years. And Ichigo was able to fight him on equal terms after minimal training with his powers.

Its not about how long you've been fighting, its about what you've been fighting against.

What has the Seireitei been fighting? What are the vast majority of their foes? Hollows. What are Hollows? monsters that are no threat to any one that knows what they're doing. They don't team up, they don't have tactics or plans, they are just your common monster fodder of the spirit world, that maybe has some unique abilities if they are strong enough, but even then they just fight individually, there is no organization to them. no challenge. Its no surprise that Byakuya could be in training for so long if there is nothing to challenge you like weak, stupid foes like Hollows.

A foe like that is very different from repeatedly fighting massive wars with people whose toolkit is just as big as yours, both are just as intelligent and organized, and both are trying to optimize their resources as much as they can.

and even if you say that the Soul Reapers could've sparred with one another, sparring is different from all out war, one is holding back and the other isn't. and sure there was a war between Quincy's and Soul Reapers, but the Quincy's are people with special bows and arrows. Who got wiped out down to one man. Which hasn't seem to impact anyone outside the Quincy's. Which implies to me that the Quincy's were hardly a challenge.

Basically the Seireitei are a bunch of people whose way of combat has stagnated after so long of having no true threats to their supremacy. Ichigo was only a threat because he wasn't someone taught by them and was figuring out how to do all this himself and thus had to think on his feet rather than rely on stale teachings whose experience is mostly against: A: monsters to be exterminated like pests and B: archers who got wiped long ago.

the Naruto world has from day one, during the time of the first Hokage, been about near-mastermind tactical back and forths involving summons, clones, close combat, wide area ninjutsu, hax genjutsu lockdowns, pulling bloodline techniques out to use exactly when needed, replacement jutsu, paper bombs, and generally using your techniques like an engineer or a wizard. The overall combat paradigm is that Bleach loses because they never had to rely on more than raw power to win, when that won't work against people like Naruto Shinobi who has had Genin beating vastly more powerful Jounin even before Shippuden using tactics, and strategy when those Jounin themselves had great tactics and strategies themselves that are more than just throwing around raw power.

Like, remember Rock Lee and Might Guy? The people closest to Bleach's combat paradigm in terms of style? Yeah look at what Might Guy had to do just to like, hold off one of the Big Bads so that Naruto could save the day: use a technique to unlock his full chakra potential, which then kills him from using it all in one burst. while Rock Lee routinely loses against Neji, who loses against Naruto. Rock Lee? also loses against Gaara, easily. Gaara is definitely one opponent you'll never be able to beat by going "I'll hit with my sword- HARDER!!"

ben-zayb

2016-10-20, 04:55 PM

gooddragon1

2016-10-20, 05:11 PM

Its not about how long you've been fighting, its about what you've been fighting against.

I agree. And what do the bleach characters end up fighting at the END? People bestowed with letters that allow them to do things like imagine reality (V) or shift the balance of reality (B) or become stronger from taking damage (M). Jutsu allows impressive manipulation of the environment. Occasionally warping reality (verrry occasionally). The sternritter at the higher levels were pushing the limits of writing expression in power. They had to be jobbed to be beaten (like how V was). This is bad writing imo. However, it shows the extent of the power difference. One writer was willing to go further into the bad writing category power levels than the other.

What has the Seireitei been fighting? What are the vast majority of their foes? Hollows. What are Hollows? monsters that are no threat to any one that knows what they're doing. They don't team up, they don't have tactics or plans, they are just your common monster fodder of the spirit world, that maybe has some unique abilities if they are strong enough, but even then they just fight individually, there is no organization to them. no challenge. Its no surprise that Byakuya could be in training for so long if there is nothing to challenge you like weak, stupid foes like Hollows.

Remember that comparability mention?

What if the Naruto characters had no way to interact with the hollows. Well then even a low level hollow would be a threat to them. And again, remember the first sentence I quoted in this post. What have they been fighting at the END? Not at the beginning. Not how long they've been fighting. Not even quality of fights up to that point. The end is the consideration point.

I remember a part where Ishida says "They're moving so fast I can't visually follow their movements." in a fight a long time ago of Ichigo vs Ulquiorra. We could see them though through the camera. So how fast were they moving?

My opinion here: Given the caliber of what was fought as a comparison... at the very least we'd see Ichigo do roughly what Aizen did against the captains where he appeared to blur move 3 or so times (http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=TQgn4SwBmFA&p=n#/1150;1182) and all the captains were suddenly cut down. That would be generous. At most, Ichigo would be wiping his blade with a cloth as Naruto falls into 1 inch sized chunks... along with the rest of the Naruto cast.

Lord Raziere

2016-10-20, 05:39 PM

I agree. And what do the bleach characters end up fighting at the END? People bestowed with letters that allow them to do things like imagine reality (V) or shift the balance of reality (B) or become stronger from taking damage (M). Jutsu allows impressive manipulation of the environment. Occasionally warping reality (verrry occasionally). The sternritter at the higher levels were pushing the limits of writing expression in power. They had to be jobbed to be beaten (like how V was). This is bad writing imo. However, it shows the extent of the power difference. One writer was willing to go further into the bad writing category power levels than the other.

Ah but if you admit its bad writing, why do you want to defend it and want it to win? Sure you can say its for accuracy's sake, but if its something bad wins over something better written, who really loses in this situation? I don't. I'm arguing for better writing, so even if your right, your arguing for bad writing. I have the moral high ground, because I don't acknowledge as something like that being valid. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

gooddragon1

2016-10-20, 06:13 PM

Ah but if you admit its bad writing, why do you want to defend it and want it to win? Sure you can say its for accuracy's sake, but if its something bad wins over something better written, who really loses in this situation? I don't. I'm arguing for better writing, so even if your right, your arguing for bad writing. I have the moral high ground, because I don't acknowledge as something like that being valid. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

I don't want it to win. I'm stating how it is. I hated how superman beat dbz. Twice. But in their second video they explained the reason. I debate that the upper limit of what a dbz character could reach wouldn't be enough, but for superman they were assuming infinity.

As for the series:
-I stopped watching naruto after the unbelievably blatant fanservice involving Hot Ar U Hotaru. Read the wiki for updates after that.
-I never got into bleach all that much, I just read the wiki for updates (and watched youtube clips of some of the battles).

Traab

2016-10-20, 06:25 PM

How is this different from saying that if Ichigo can't punch something he stabs it, if he can't stab it he uses getsuga tensho, if THAT fails he has bankai, hollow mode, final getsuga tensho, fullbring, and quincy powers, each with different abilities and advantages?

The vast majority of Naruto's options that you're listing are just different forms he takes before he punches things.

I cant tell if you people arguing this point are intentionally ignoring it or not, but as I pointed out, naruto has a LOT of different skills. The only skills ichigo has are "pointy end goes into the bad guy" and "energy beam from my sword" His power ups do nothing but make him better at those two options. He doesnt suddenly have brand new abilities he could never do, it just enhances everything he already has even more. He gets stronger, faster, tougher. Meanwhile naruto going into sage mode unlocks new abilities he couldnt otherwise do, such as giving him ranged attacks he didnt have before, that taijutsu style that lets him hit you even with a miss, as well as greatly enhanced sensory skills. And of course his six path sage mode and kyuubi modes give him even more abilities on top of that. Including the ability to use pretty much all the elements, create a kyuubi sized cloak of energy he can manipulate in a number of ways, fire bijudamas of various sizes and strengths, and thats just scratching the surface. And all of that is of course in addition to the whole stronger faster tougher thing he gets as well.

gooddragon1

2016-10-20, 06:29 PM

The only skills ichigo has are "pointy end goes into the bad guy" and "energy beam from my sword" His power ups do nothing but make him better at those two options. He doesnt suddenly have brand new abilities he could never do, it just enhances everything he already has even more.

Not that he needs them, but then what do you call this?

https://dailyanimeart.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/ichigo-uses-blut-vene-e1351073327777.jpg?w=1112

Or him getting fullbring? Or the ability to sense where his friends were when fighting butterflaizen?

Traab

2016-10-20, 06:51 PM

Not that he needs them, but then what do you call this?

https://dailyanimeart.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/ichigo-uses-blut-vene-e1351073327777.jpg?w=1112

Or him getting fullbring? Or the ability to sense where his friends were when fighting butterflaizen?

I call that a black and white page of a manga with no real point of reference for me to work with. Im serious, I have no idea whats going on there, fill me in please. As for his fullbring, wasnt that basically his shinigami powers again only accessed a different way/level of power? I admit to knowing little about the fullbring arc though, so if he can do something else in a fight beyond stab bad guy/firing his sword beam attack then by all means let me know. As for knowing where his friends were, wasnt that an ability he developed the basics of WAY back at the start when chasing down chad who was trying to protect some sort of spirit possessed bird? That it is stronger/more effective I will grant you, but its less a new ability and more an ability he almost never uses because it rarely comes up.

gooddragon1

2016-10-20, 06:57 PM

I call that a black and white page of a manga with no real point of reference for me to work with. Im serious, I have no idea whats going on there, fill me in please. As for his fullbring, wasnt that basically his shinigami powers again only accessed a different way/level of power? I admit to knowing little about the fullbring arc though, so if he can do something else in a fight beyond stab bad guy/firing his sword beam attack then by all means let me know. As for knowing where his friends were, wasnt that an ability he developed the basics of WAY back at the start when chasing down chad who was trying to protect some sort of spirit possessed bird? That it is stronger/more effective I will grant you, but its less a new ability and more an ability he almost never uses because it rarely comes up.

That's blut vene (a defensive ability)
Fullbring lets people change one object into another.
The point of the sensory ability is that it exists and he can find people and things. That's not just hitting things man.

Up until kaguya, naruto didn't use harem jutsu that much either and yet people are bringing it up here because it could be tactically advantageous.

Ichigo's power level is such that imo he doesn't need to do much more than w+m1 against Naruto, but I am showing that this is not all he can do.

F.H. Zebedee

2016-10-20, 07:31 PM

People listing all the different elements Naruto can control are kinda missing the point- Yeah, those are things he can do, but why bother? Naruto's actual movelist in combat is Rasengan, Rasenshuriken, his variety of buff modes, hand to hand combat, Shadow Clones, shapeshifting, and the occasion Bijuu Ball or the like. When's the last time Naruto actually did anything with the ink powers or sand powers or what have you? I think there was one panel he threw shurikens of all of them, but that's not his typical fusillade- He's more likely to just go rasenshuriken spam (which admittedly is often enough to get the job done)

Ichigo is admittedly less versatile, but I think it's substantially less of a gulf when you narrow it down to practical moves. Considering how similar cero/bijuu balls functionally play out, and IIRC that Getsuga Tensho is stated to basically be a wonky Cero, I think we can say likely their ranged attacks obliterate eachother very thoroughly.

I'd give Ichigo a slight edge in close quarters, since he's got a sword that can take the kind of abuse being slung around (which isn't to say anything against Naruto's hand-to-hand, just that when you've got two folks at roughly even physical feats, give it to the guy with the reach advantage and a weapon that won't get as hurt by hitting/parrying as bare hands will) Naruto can spam shadow clones, but I doubt that'd be a deciding factor. After all, we see Ichigo in bankai waaaaay back in the first big arc parry thousands of blades coming at him from all directions. Shadowclones are helpful, but let's not assume Ichigo can only handle attacks from one opponent dueling him.

All that said, I think Naruto's real advantage is mind games. Ichigo hasn't actually- Well, THOUGHT his way through a fight in forever. He manages to hedge and hold out, til he digs deep enough to find a way to win, but it's seldom intellectually. It's the Rocky method- Take a beating til you get your second wind, then smoke the guy.

Naruto isn't *bright* but he is wiley. So I see a close fight, likely looking slightly in Ichigo's favor the whole time, until Naruto comes up with some goofy-arse trick that puts Ichigo on tilt, and then the next Hokage puts the Substitute Soulreaper to bed.

Traab

2016-10-20, 07:35 PM

That's blut vene (a defensive ability)
Fullbring lets people change one object into another.
The point of the sensory ability is that it exists and he can find people and things. That's not just hitting things man.

Up until kaguya, naruto didn't use harem jutsu that much either and yet people are bringing it up here because it could be tactically advantageous.

Ichigo's power level is such that imo he doesn't need to do much more than r+m1 against Naruto, but I am showing that this is not all he can do.

Ok, so he gets a healing power. Thats something new I admit. Heh, of course in the tradition of this style of anime he tended to get stabbed in the heart a lot even without that ability and still fight but thats just picking nits. As for fullbring, yeah, I get that from the generic description, but what did he use it for? Didnt he basically recreate his sword and abilities as a shinigami with it? As for sensing things yeah, I mean, its never used as a combat ability or anything but ok, he does have something other than pointy end goes into the bad man. As for the sexy jutsu, I think it was mainly brought up as a joke because of the amusing mental image of how ichigo would react to suddenly seeing a nude orihime appear in front of him with nothing but wisps of smoke covering up the naughty bits.

*EDIT* Ok, this is unrelated mostly but, im rewatching a few bleach fights and I have to know, what the HECK is this obsession with names? Its like 3/4 of the espada fights are word duels where each side tries to act more arrogant than the other about not telling them who they are or demanding to know their opponents name. Crap like, "There is no point in telling you my name, as I will kill you soon and the dead dont need to know who i am." "Oh, your arrogance in demanding my name is so amusing I will give you the honor of telling me your name before you die." etc etc etc. Is this a japanese thing? Like, introducing yourself as a sign of respect before a fight to the death?

gooddragon1

2016-10-20, 07:59 PM

Ok, so he gets a healing power. Thats something new I admit. Heh, of course in the tradition of this style of anime he tended to get stabbed in the heart a lot even without that ability and still fight but thats just picking nits. As for fullbring, yeah, I get that from the generic description, but what did he use it for? Didnt he basically recreate his sword and abilities as a shinigami with it? As for sensing things yeah, I mean, its never used as a combat ability or anything but ok, he does have something other than pointy end goes into the bad man. As for the sexy jutsu, I think it was mainly brought up as a joke because of the amusing mental image of how ichigo would react to suddenly seeing a nude orihime appear in front of him with nothing but wisps of smoke covering up the naughty bits.

*EDIT* Ok, this is unrelated mostly but, im rewatching a few bleach fights and I have to know, what the HECK is this obsession with names? Its like 3/4 of the espada fights are word duels where each side tries to act more arrogant than the other about not telling them who they are or demanding to know their opponents name. Crap like, "There is no point in telling you my name, as I will kill you soon and the dead dont need to know who i am." "Oh, your arrogance in demanding my name is so amusing I will give you the honor of telling me your name before you die." etc etc etc. Is this a japanese thing? Like, introducing yourself as a sign of respect before a fight to the death?

Not really healing, more like damage reduction.
Ichigo worked with aizen to fool Yhwach and he's been tactically clever enough to obscure ulquiorra's vision with a flying cube of rock and then move in for a clean cut. He doesn't often have to be intelligent, but cases like this one do come up.

It is heretical for a villain to not monologue according to the Ordo Manganimatum of the Inquisition. Even Horus knew well enough not to stoop to that level of heresy.

Traab

2016-10-20, 08:15 PM

Not really healing, more like damage reduction.
Ichigo worked with aizen to fool Yhwach and he's been tactically clever enough to obscure ulquiorra's vision with a flying cube of rock and then move in for a clean cut. He doesn't often have to be intelligent, but cases like this one do come up.

It is heretical for a villain to not monologue according to the Ordo Manganimatum of the Inquisition. Even Horus knew well enough not to stoop to that level of heresy.

Monologuing is fine, but this is both sides, captains and espada going back and forth with refusing to give their names, claiming they dont care when they hear their opponents names, and eventually during the battle, telling each other what their name is. I get the feeling its like a respect thing. When you face an opponent you acknowledge as skilled, you tell him your name and he tells you his. If you think he is trash you refuse to tell him your name because he "doesnt deserve to know" or some such thing. So by refusing to give their name they are basically saying, "You dont count for anything to me, I will crush you like a bug, and I dont bother to learn the name of bugs. " Its a combination of trash talk and disdain or something. It just seems to be a strange thing to focus on, it crops up in so many fights.

Anteros

2016-10-20, 11:11 PM

I cant tell if you people arguing this point are intentionally ignoring it or not, but as I pointed out, naruto has a LOT of different skills. The only skills ichigo has are "pointy end goes into the bad guy" and "energy beam from my sword" His power ups do nothing but make him better at those two options. He doesnt suddenly have brand new abilities he could never do, it just enhances everything he already has even more. He gets stronger, faster, tougher. Meanwhile naruto going into sage mode unlocks new abilities he couldnt otherwise do, such as giving him ranged attacks he didnt have before, that taijutsu style that lets him hit you even with a miss, as well as greatly enhanced sensory skills. And of course his six path sage mode and kyuubi modes give him even more abilities on top of that. Including the ability to use pretty much all the elements, create a kyuubi sized cloak of energy he can manipulate in a number of ways, fire bijudamas of various sizes and strengths, and thats just scratching the surface. And all of that is of course in addition to the whole stronger faster tougher thing he gets as well.

Because you're grossly exaggerating Naruto's versatility. He has different forms, but he uses them just like Ichigo uses his. As a power up to hit the bad guy harder. He is not a versatile fighter. Period. Even the various skills he does use just basically boil down to different sized blast attacks. It's irrelevant. Sasuke or Orochimaru or someone else could probably pull some random technique out to beat Ichigo with, but Naruto wouldn't even think of it.

As far as actual combat versatility we see from him goes he can summon a giant frog, make clones, transform himself into a woman, flash step, throw different types of energy attacks, and heal. He barely ever does anything outside of this.

-D-

2016-10-21, 04:34 AM

That said, didn't Ichigo lose most of his powers? I can imagine Ichigo with Shinigami+Quincy+Hollow(+Fullbring) would be more than a match for Naruto. But what powers does he have at end of manga? I remember Ywach taking some powers.

Brother Oni

2016-10-21, 07:30 AM

can you explain it mate?

A bit late, but I thought I'd answer the question. Japanese is very fond of punning based on homonyms:

Ichigo written 苺, is strawberry the fruit.
Ichigo written 一護, is the name of the Bleach protagonist. He isn't named after the fruit, but the character 一 meaning 'one, first' etc, which is a common pattern in Japanese naming.

Naruto written ナルト is the name of the eponymous protagonist from the show.
Narutomaki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narutomaki) (ナルト/なると) is a type of food (yep, same characters for Naruto).
Both Naruto are named for the whirlpools that form in the Naruto straits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naruto_whirlpools) because of the swirl pattern motif.

Mato

2016-10-21, 03:49 PM

People listing all the different elements Naruto can control are kinda missing the pointSo incredible true.

Naruto just invents variant Rasengas and use Shadow Clones for misdirection. Even with shapable death orbs the only thing he thought about using them for was hand held sticks. And he even watched someone else use them as shields and projectiles. A typical Naruto fan is like, a fire Reasenga, that is so amazing! Best thing ever, it proves Naruto is like ten time more powerful than he was because a large fire destructo disk is even cooler than a massive three dimensional disintegration orb wind-based Rasenga. :smallsigh:

But Ichigo getting a blue colored Grand Ray Getsuga Tensho? I don't understand it, color change is boring.
Ichigo actually has things like telekinesis because he still has the remnant his fullbringer powers. Blut's near invincibility and it's unused attack mode, bows and arrows, a couple dozen blasting & barrier spells, and a very ridiculously overpowered Vollstandig mode and it's accompanying Sklaverei hax power steal for being a Quincy. Over two hundred Kido spells, at least one of which can stop time and a few can duplicate illusions, for being a Shinigami. And then he still has a mask (or face paint), resurrection, possible double resurrection, regeneration, and the ability to inhale souls for being a Hallow. But none of this is really that helpful.

The world of Bleach has far more complex and ominous techniques than Naruto. Like Pain has six abilities with multiple issues making a massive deal about it. But it's completely impossible to count how many abilities the current Captain Commander Shunsui has because none of them make any sense. There are multiple characters that win through preplanning hundreds of contingencies on top of people that can simply invent whatever they can imagine and they still lose.

A fundamental core element of Bleach is that no matter how complex the technique is, it always comes back to the scale of power behind it. Two hit death needle? Made worthless from spiritual pressure. An intact soul? Punched into annihilation by spiritual pressure. Giant Chibaku Tensei Spell? Karate chopped to death. Can literately invent anything you like? I'm going to win by slicing you, and it worked. Giant hand with regeneration, organic evolution, adaptive replication and self-replication abilities that'd put Doomsday, the Superman Killer, to shame? Died in one hit to the universe's sharpest sword.

The worlds of Naruto and Bleach are nothing alike. For an example, in Naruto Obito's intangibility has weaknesses, he can't remain intangible while attacking, he can't remain intangible for more than five minutes, his intangibility is rendered worthless if anyone he teleports is still alive, his tangibility does not work while he's inside his pocket dimension, etc. These weaknesses are then exploited and yeahee for the heroes. In Bleach, Lille's intangibility had no time limit, he could attack while maintaining it, there was no alternative dimension to attack from. And the invincible technique was totally irrelevant because Shunsui, that guy who could beat the top ranked Espada with only a shikai, could use his bankai on him just fine.

In the world of Bleach, magical techniques that give tactical advantages or strike certain types of weaknesses only matter of the combatants are close to the same levels of power. And Naruto does not exist on the same scale as Ichigo. Maybe if you gave Naruto the ten tails he could try to compete, but then in order to be fair you have to also give Ichigo something so what does Ichigo get above his normal bonuses? Maybe Yhwach's entire power set since Ichigo's son just devoured him for lunch in the last issue?

lord_khaine

2016-10-22, 11:43 AM

Im going to give this one to Naruto as well. Mainly because he has the better track record of defeated people who were actually stronger than himself though cunning, instead of relying on his second wind. And also because we dont have any solid evidence for Ichigo existing on a different tier than Naruto.

I do agree on that the upper tiers in Bleach are higher up than in Naruto, but those extreme monsters either killed off each other, or were defeated by aid of another such monster and a magical silver arrow.

Mato

2016-10-23, 10:15 AM

That post made me realize I have been over criticizing of Tite.

Tite likes to repeat things and ran meaningless cliffhangers into the ground. So when something of course goes the Mary Sue asspull lame repetition McGuffin way a lot of us got a little in patient with him. But, Ichigo's main deal is he loses a fight, spends a few minutes getting better, than wins. He only had a second wind twice in the series and, here is that repetition again, both times he ended it by fighting against his cheap victory hollowfication like it was supposed to make things better (it just made things nonsensical with comments like slice my arm off).

Kishimoto on the other hand tried to make Naruto one of the weakest characters in his series because Naruto has a story about group efforts are better selfishly doing everything on your own. And so almost every single fight Naruto gets a quick boost from the nine tails. Haku, every fight with Orochimaru, Nenji, Gaara, Jiraiya, Itachi, Deidara, both fights with Pain, Nine-Tails (his mother helped), Tobi, Ten-Tails, Obito, Madara, Kaguya, and Sasuke are all done by trying to overpower his opponents, often directly through a second wind nine-tails assist, and commonly under someone else's direction. The second round with Pain and the fight with Tobi are even counter productive as they remind you that Naruto really is pretty simple minded even if you think he has it all together after defeating Kakuzu and Pain.

We applaud Kishimoto because he is a better writer that clearly put more effort into his series than Tite and we overlooked Kishi's over reliance and repetition of turning losing into a Nine-Tails save.

Frozen_Feet

2016-10-24, 05:28 AM

For people who want to compare the series in a non-stupid way:

Bleach has a late-series minor antagonist called Candice Catnip (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Candice_Catnipp). Her Schrift is "T" for "Thunderbolt" and one of her signature techniques, Galvano Javelin, has an explicit energy value: five gigajoules.

Guess what also has five gigajoules of energy?

*drumroll*

A real-life thunderbolt. I know, I know, it is rather unsurprising for the character who's moniker is Thunderbolt to shoot thunderbolts. But it's an useful comparison point, because Naruto also has a technique which utilizes actual thunderbolts: Sasuke's Kirin. (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kirin)

Which Itachi then goes to block with a half-formed Susanoo. (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Susanoo)

By the end of the series, Sasuke can utilize Susanoo at will (and even figures out additional power-ups for it). Sasuke also invents and utilizes even more, and more powerful, lightning-based abilities such as Indra's Arrow.

How do we get from Sasuke to the topic of Naruto versus Ichigo, then? Well, by the end of Naruto series, Naruto is explicitly equal with Sasuke to the point where neither can overcome the other's full defenses. Meaning we can reasonably state that Naruto's final form of the Kyubi cloak has exactly as much defensive powers as Susanoo.

And from here, we can reasonably state that both Naruto and Sasuke could've stomped Candice Catnip just as bad as Ichigo. But we also know Ichigo would be more or less invulnerable to Kirin, as he was able to block Galvano Javelin without trouble.

Candice isn't the only lightning user in Bleach, though. Another character, Chojiro Sasakibe (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Ch%C5%8Djir%C5%8D_Sasakibe), also has a Bankai which conjures a thunderstorm. And we know from his backstory that at his prime, Sasakibe could hurt young Yamamoto Genryusai Shigekuni. We also know that later, Sasakibe's Bankai, while being used by a Quincy, was unable to replicate this feat. So from this we can gather that Kirin from Naruto could hurt unreleased Yamamoto, but wouldn't be guaranteed to do so.

Useful comparisons don't end there. What does Yamamoto's Bankai do at its most basic level? It makes him burn as hot as the sun. It so happens Naruto also has a technique which burns as hot as the sun, Amaterasu. (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Amaterasu) And we know Susanoo can block Amaterasu, not the least because Sasuke augments Susanoo by wreathing it in the black flames multiple times during the series. Naruto also is proven to be able to withstand close proximity to such heat, as Sasuke uses Amaterasu to free them from Kaguya's ice prison.

From this, we can infer that Susanoo and Naruto's Kyubi Cloak are at least on the level of Sternritter Blut Vene, as a Lloyd Royd (Or Royd Loyd, I forget which) was able to survive close proximity to Yamamoto.

The point is that if you can accept few intuitive premises, such as thunderbolts being thunderbolts and things stated to be as hot as the sun actually being as hot as the sun, across both series, then it is easy to see Naruto and Bleach settings are not at different scales at all. They're fairly close, and it can be established that top-tier threats from one series would be top-tier threats in the other.

lord_khaine

2016-10-24, 08:08 AM

Thats an amazingly scientific comparison of things there, i take my hat off for the work you put into this.

-D-

2016-10-24, 09:44 AM

Thats an amazingly scientific comparison of things there, i take my hat off for the work you put into this.
I don't think it really holds up. Sure at some points you can compare them one on one. But most of the time the things they are fighting shrug off damage or absorb it. But seriously, how do you compare Reality Warper like Ywhach? You could hit him with reality destroying attack and he can still walk away unscathed. And kill your entire family. Retroactively.

Like you blast Gerald with Moon Destroying laser. Congrats, you have Moon sized Gerald.

Traab

2016-10-24, 11:30 AM

Itachis susanoo had the yata mirror which lets it nullify just about any attack, sasuke doesnt have that ability on his. Just a bit of a nitpick there. There are a few areas where you cant say, "Well so and so could do this, therefore this guy could do the same." Im not even saying his susanoo cant tank a kirin just pointing out a bad comparison. Also, Kirin is more than just a lightning bolt. It basically draws all the energy out of a stormcloud and focuses it in a single blast, so technically its ALL the lightning all at one target. :smallbiggrin:

lord_khaine

2016-10-24, 12:37 PM

I don't think it really holds up. Sure at some points you can compare them one on one. But most of the time the things they are fighting shrug off damage or absorb it. But seriously, how do you compare Reality Warper like Ywhach? You could hit him with reality destroying attack and he can still walk away unscathed. And kill your entire family. Retroactively.

Simple, i dont compare reality warpers. This has nothing to do with Ywhach, we are comparing Naruto and Ichigo.

-D-

2016-10-24, 03:17 PM

Simple, i dont compare reality warpers. This has nothing to do with Ywhach, we are comparing Naruto and Ichigo.
Well, then how do you compare peak powers of Ichigo/Naruto and not some random semi level, they fought.

Anyway, being hot as the sun, doesn't mean hot as the sun :smallsigh:. It just means really hot. If it was hot as a sun as it claims - a human sized object that was hot as the sun, would be equivalent of detonating a small thermonuclear device (inside fission bomb is a ball of fire hot as the sun). Which would bode ill for anyone.

It's magical super-hot fire. You may claim it's same temperature, but at that point - just compare the antagonist.

Frozen_Feet

2016-10-24, 03:30 PM

I don't think it really holds up. Sure at some points you can compare them one on one. But most of the time the things they are fighting shrug off damage or absorb it.

So? Finding one-to-one parallels is the best way to compare two things. When things can survive attacks, it doesn't cause problems. On the contrary, it sets benchmarks for what a character can survive.

There are a lot more comparison points, but I have better things to do than go over all of them.

But seriously, how do you compare Reality Warper like Ywhach?

Simple, you look at other reality warping attacks, which exist both in Naruto and elsewhere in Bleach. And if nothing else seems to compare, well, then nothing else compares. (I didn't say I think Yhwach is stronger than Kaguya for gits and shigles.)

It is that simple. Really. You can read. You can put pieces of texts next to each other and see if they're describing the same thing.

You could hit him with reality destroying attack and he can still walk away unscathed. And kill your entire family. Retroactively.

No limits fallacy. Yhwach never demonstrates ability to survive such attacks. On the contrary, he can be injured by a basic sword slash from Ichigo, he just needs to be cheated into thinking it's something else than what he saw. Yhwach's ability is also proactive, not retroactive. This is made obvious because Tsukishima, who has genuine retroactive powers, can change the past to something Yhwach didn't dictate.

Which would leave a lot of room for some Naruto characters to strike against him, but I do think you'd fundamentally need something like Ishida's silver arrow to truly win.

Like you blast Gerald with Moon Destroying laser. Congrats, you have Moon sized Gerald.

Another no-limits fallacy. Is that possible? Perhaps, but never demonstrated. Remember, Gerard could be incapacitates by Nimaya, requiring Yhwach's help to be revived. This suggest he can be taken down if he's caught off-guard.

This said, I do think only good matches for Gerard in Naruto would be Kaguya, Sage Obito and Sage Madara.

Itachis susanoo had the yata mirror which lets it nullify just about any attack, sasuke doesnt have that ability on his. Just a bit of a nitpick there. There are a few areas where you cant say, "Well so and so could do this, therefore this guy could do the same." Im not even saying his susanoo cant tank a kirin just
pointing out a bad comparison.

Itachi is not shown using the mirror to block Kirin, so that is immaterial to my argument.

Also, Kirin is more than just a lightning bolt. It basically draws all the energy out of a stormcloud and focuses it in a single blast, so technically its ALL the lightning all at one target. :smallbiggrin:

This is true, but at best it means Kirin is one or two orders of magnitude more powerful than Galvano Javelin, and that's still roughly comparable to Sasakibe's Bankai.

Though again, the salient point is that if you can accept a thunderbolt is a thunderbolt is a thunderbolt, you can put lightning-based attacks next to each other and compare them across series.

Mato

2016-10-24, 03:43 PM

Thats an amazingly scientific comparison of things there, i take my hat off for the work you put into this.I agree with -D-, Frozen_Feet's "analysis" is a series of linked assumptions for a very incorrect conclusion.

If you accept that a lightning bolt is only one gigavolt and the Kirin is equal to that then one second of Yamamoto standing around not doing anything in his bankai, it releases around twenty eight times more energy than Susake's greatest lightning-based offensive technique if you use a rough heat conversion (http://www.convertunits.com/from/joule/to/celsius+heat+unit) for a quick estimation. And remember Tite was correct, Yama's bankai is so hot it it's not actually fire and that's why no one could initially see it until Yama released even more energy to color it in.

But Amaterasu is fire. Even if you accept Amaterasu burns as hot as the surface of the sun as claimed, it burns at 5,505 degrees Celsius which is a pretty low number isn't it? And you don't even need the numbers to know the attacks are not even close to being the same as each other. Amaterasu can successfully set trees on fire and it can't burn through Gaara's Sand, but Yama makes several hundred meters of concrete and ground immediately vanish from instantaneous nuclear fusion. Of course Amaterasu is weaker than Yamamoto's fire.

When he came to his conclusion that Susake's Susanoo can block Yamamoto all he did was demonstrate that if you you have no idea how powerful anything is, or the differences between the actual techniques used as examples, you may think they are close.

Flickerdart

2016-10-24, 03:47 PM

Gaara's sand isn't just merely sand - it's chakra-infused, and also contains the spirit of his mother or something. Comparing that to unattended, mundane concrete is meaningless.

Mato

2016-10-24, 03:50 PM

Gaara's sand isn't just merely sand - it's chakra-infused, and also contains the spirit of his mother or something. Comparing that to unattended, mundane concrete is meaningless.It's still sand. And Gaara still makes a point of mineral mixing to enhance it's hardness and gold's weight can be used to counter it so the general properties of the sand still matter more than the chakra in them.

And I also used trees in the same example, the dirt and even living tissue hit by it don't vaporize immediate when hit with the technique. So are you trying to say that all the plants around the building where Itachi and Susake were also infused with the chakra of several dead mothers or something? :smallconfused:

Thesse technques just are not on the same scale. Even if you nerf Yamamoto all the way down to Susake's level by claiming Susanno and Blut at the same thing, Yama still vaporized a blut-user in one strike of his North technique. Yama would show up to the fight with Madara, kill him in one hit, and walk away complaining he had to get his hands dirty. And that Blunt user as we come to find out was one of the weakest Sternritter Ywach had.

-D-

2016-10-24, 04:01 PM

No limits fallacy. Yhwach never demonstrates ability to survive such attacks. On the contrary, he can be injured by a basic sword slash from Ichigo, he just needs to be cheated into thinking it's something else than what he saw. Yhwach's ability is also proactive, not retroactive. This is made obvious because Tsukishima, who has genuine retroactive powers, can change the past to something Yhwach didn't dictate.

Wat. That's wrong reading. Yhwach was "killed" numerous times (almost all times by Ichigo, once by the Ink Guy/Reality Warper). He just rewrites the future so he doesn't die. So, in essence he survives. Not to mention he sees ALL futures and imports from it stuff he needs - like with those bombs that perfect landed on Ichigo. That part is retroactive. It's only going from PRESENT <- FUTURE (unlike Tsuki whose powers work PAST <- PRESENT).

That's his power. Tshukishima changes past. Yhwach changes future, that's why he can cancel Yhwach's power. And when with all that power the only thing Yhwach feared was Ichigo. And Ichigo did manage to cut him down several times. It didn't stick. But others never managed to make a dent.

Another no-limits fallacy. Is that possible? Perhaps, but never demonstrated. Remember, Gerard could be incapacitates by Nimaya
Again. Not enough familiarity with material. I'm talking Gerard in as he fought multiple Shinigami. Not as he fought Nimaya. When he was cut down, Yhwach used Auswahlen, which didn't just ressurect him but redistributed powers of all other Quincy into his select few, including Gerard. Gerard before Auswahlen << Gerard after Auswahlen.

If Kenpaki, a guy that chased and cut meteor into shreds, after his powerup couldn't defeat Gerard, it's within reason that Firing a Moon laser into Gerard wouldn't have any effect. Especially, since his ability is turn damage dealt into health.

Frozen_Feet

2016-10-24, 04:03 PM

@Mato: great way of twisting my words into something I didn't say.

I didn't say Susanoo could block Yamamoto. I said "survive close proximity to" and compared him to Lloyd Royd (Or Royd Lloyd - I cannot keep those two straight).

What happens to said character when he actually touches Yamamoto? He is incinerated, just like everything else.

Your criticism fails principle of generosity - you made my argument seem weaker than it is by claiming it was something it wasn't, when instead you could've followed the trail of inference I laid out for you to make much the same point. I know you know enough of both series to have done that, why it is so glaring you didn't.

Frozen_Feet

2016-10-24, 04:24 PM

Wat. That's wrong reading. Yhwach was "killed" numerous times (almost all times by Ichigo, once by the Ink Guy/Reality Warper). He just rewrites the future so he doesn't die. So, in essence he survives. Not to mention he sees ALL futures and imports from it stuff he needs - like with those bombs that perfect landed on Ichigo. That part is retroactive. It's only going from PRESENT <- FUTURE (unlike Tsuki whose powers work PAST <- PRESENT).

That's his power. Tshukishima changes past. Yhwach changes future, that's why he can cancel Yhwach's power. And when with all that power the only thing Yhwach feared was Ichigo. And Ichigo did manage to cut him down several times. It didn't stick. But others never managed to make a dent.

I'm not sure you got what I was getting at. When I said Yhwach's power is pro- rather than retroactive, I meant it only changes things to the future from his present. It's not shown changing the past at any point, in sharp contrast to Tsukishima's, which does - to the point of influencing Yhwach's own actions.

So in essence, you're saying the same thing I am. What you're missing is that Tsukishima's actions prove Yhwach's ability is not as absolute as it seems.

What's also worth noting is that Izanagi, a reality-altering ability from Naruto, is used by villains much the same way and for the same effects as Yhwach's Allmighty. Izanagi has a sharper timelimit, but it is an example to answer your question "how do you compare reality warpers?".

Again. Not enough familiarity with material. I'm talking Gerard in as he fought multiple Shinigami. Not as he fought Nimaya. When he was cut down, Yhwach used Auswahlen, which didn't just ressurect him but redistributed powers of all other Quincy into his select few, including Gerard. Gerard before Auswahlen << Gerard after Auswahlen.

It's not really known if Gerard after his revival is any stronger than before it. Some pieces of dialogue between Lille and Nimaya, as well as Askin and Urahara, suggests he's not, and he just didn't manage to activate his power in time when fighting Nimaya.

If Kenpaki, a guy that chased and cut meteor into shreds, after his powerup couldn't defeat Gerard, it's within reason that Firing a Moon laser into Gerard wouldn't have any effect. Especially, since his ability is turn damage dealt into health.

How is this different from me saying "vaguely possible?" The important part is that this is never substantiated. It's bad form to presume an attack of a scale far bigger than anything used against Gerard in his own series would have no effect. It's useless hyperbole.

A much saner argument would be to show, in a thread like this, that Narutö doesn't have attacks of much greater scale than were used by Kenpachi, Byakuya et all against Gerard in Bleach. For example, Gaara's sand? He uses it in much the same way, and in similar quantities, as Byakuya uses Senbon Sakura Kageyoshi. So Gaara's sand would likely be ineffective against Gerard.

These kinds of comparisons are easy and doable, so why are you wasting everyone's time talking about a moon-splitting laser that's nowhere to be found in either series?

Mato

2016-10-24, 04:57 PM

@Mato: great way of twisting my words into something I didn't say.
Already moving to a vacuous truth only rebuttal? That was fast, or "the speed of gitp?" :smallconfused:

I didn't say anything about Susake touching Yamamoto either. But arguing that I didn't, even if true or false, is a meaningless waste of time that has nothing to do with the point which is why it's considered a fallacy. Your entire post was about how they are on the same scale and uses a couple very incorrect examples. Like as I breifly touched on before, even if Susanoo was the equivalent of a lesser Sternritter Yhwach absorbed the powers around twenty of them before Ichigo showed he could win using his shikai which puts Ichigo well over twenty times your conclusion even if all of your assumptions are acknowledged as fact.

What's also worth noting is that Izanagi, a reality-altering ability from Naruto, is used by villains much the same way and for the same effects as Yhwach's Allmighty.Izanagi has no offensive or utility properties, it can only keep the user alive if they would be killed. The Izanagi user must still attack and defeat his opponent as normal and whereas Izanagi provides no ability to dodge an attack, just survive it, Yhwach's Almighty gives the user insight and control over every theoretical outcome. It is capable of striking people in the future to injure them now as well conjuring blades to strike his opponents or teleporting the user, or even the limbs of his opponents, around as desired.

This is the same exact problem as before. You have no sense of scale, you are like a small child that thinks a Golden Delicious apple and pear are the same thing because they are both yellow so when someone gives you a plastic banana you think it's also the same thing too. It's not and I really wish you could understand it, but I'm not really here to teach you why that is so if you're going to just argue I'm probably just going to get bored and stop replying.

Traab

2016-10-24, 08:25 PM

Amaterasu has so many ludicrous inconsistencies we cant really judge it. Lets look at this (https://youtu.be/KIDDrz6vF5o?t=12m24s) clip. In it itachi uses amaterasu to blast a hole in the stone toads "stomach" Said toad can breathe fire, therefore clearly its resistance to said element is high, that makes it super powerful. But naruto gets like 5 inches from the flames and clearly is not suffering from any burns which he obviously would be doing if they were "as hot as the sun". They seem to burn what they are aimed at and literally nothing else. They dont seem to spread very far, if at all.

And when a human is hit by said flames, they dont turn to ash, they flail around screaming for a significant length of time, or cut off whatever body part gets hit like its no big deal. Watch the sasuke versus 5 kages fight for the best example of each. He hits a samurai, sets him on fire, dude is flailing around for a significant length of time. Eventually kankuro turns up, and uses his chakra strings to remove the guys armor, samurai is ok and armor is still intact even though "the heat of the sun" has been on it for some time now.

-D-

2016-10-25, 05:50 AM

I'm not sure you got what I was getting at. When I said Yhwach's power is pro- rather than retroactive, I meant it only changes things to the future from his present. It's not shown changing the past at any point, in sharp contrast to Tsukishima's, which does - to the point of influencing Yhwach's own actions.
It's definitely retroactive. His Almighty has several components:
Omni-Precognition. This part is retroactive. He can see every future and use the future knowledge to set traps for his opponents.
Future Modification. This part is proactive. He can modify futures. Even ones he died in.
Power Intuition & Immunity. Any power revealed to him (even in future) or any ability he figures out, will be unable to harm him and will only help him.
Consumption. Yhwach can consume powers of other beings. The stronger the being the more time it requires. Weaker powers are absorbed instantly.

And this is just his one ability. He can also fire beams that steal powers. He can regenerate/heal/ressurect/summon eye monsters/manipulate matter/fuse life and death/etc.

EDIT: Comparison with Izanagi is frivolous at best. Izanagi doesn't grant you Omni-Precognition. You can use it for a fraction of a second to shrug off damage. The Almighty is passive ability permanently active and makes you immune to whatever killed you.

Comparison:
If something chops your head, before you can use Izanagi you are done for. Afterwards they can still attack you with head chopper.
If something chops your head, The Almighty will return you to life, only you are now immune to head chopping.

So in essence, you're saying the same thing I am. What you're missing is that Tsukishima's actions prove Yhwach's ability is not as absolute as it seems..
Yhwach isn't absolute in so much he didn't know/care about Fullbringer. He overlooked that someone outside Soul Society would have powers strong enough to override his own powers.

It's not really known if Gerard after his revival is any stronger than before it. Some pieces of dialogue between Lille and Nimaya, as well as Askin and Urahara, suggests he's not, and he just didn't manage to activate his power in time when fighting Nimaya.
The page for Auswahlen mentions they are stronger. The fact that you essentially had to defeat all of the empowered Quincies TWICE proves they are stronger.

The true nature of Auswählen, however, is power redistribution; the power of the Quincy deemed to be useless is collected and redistributed to the ones who need it, and those that it is given to are reborn stronger; after being revived
Emphasis mine.

How is this different from me saying "vaguely possible?" The important part is that this is never substantiated. It's bad form to presume an attack of a scale far bigger than anything used against Gerard in his own series would have no effect. It's useless hyperbole.
Because we know how his powers work:

The Miracle (奇跡 (ザ・ミラクル), Za Mirakuru; Japanese for "Miracle"): Upon having physical damage inflicted on him, Gerard can convert the damage into physical size increases for his body, which he refers to as his "Godly Size" (神の尺度 (サイズ), Kami no Saizu; Japanese for "Godly Scale"); his strength and durability receive proportional increases as well. If inflicted with grievous injuries, Gerard can become gigantic, towering over nearby buildings and other combatants, and becomes strong and durable enough to smash buildings with a single blow

Then he converts into his Godly Form (aka Giant Gerard). In that form all his damage heals and he's nearly impossible to kill. But ok, say you manage to deal enough damage for him to activate his Vollstandig and hurray if you manage to kill him you activate his second form.

Second Form: After his initial form is destroyed, Gerard can access a second form of Quincy: Vollständig that gives him a face resembling a knight's helmet and two spikes on his shoulders. He seems to be devoid of clothing, and has energy patterns on his shoulders and waist.[73] At this point, Tōshirō Hitsugaya stated that Gerard's original Miracle-enhanced form does not hold a candle to this and that calling him a monster would be "an understatement."

I admit, I'm not one hundred percent sure when and how Vollstandig can activate, if it can activate near death or on death beating Gerard is impossible. But, you'd need to not use your strongest attack at first, and use it immediately after Gerard enters his Godly Form. If he manages to enter his Second form, you're essentially ****ed.

So all those foes would need to have enough knowledge of Gerard to strike him down in two ways. Basically you need a user that uses a high lethality, low physical damage attack (a weapon that destroys his mind would be ideal). It's quite possible his improved body can take multiple high lethality attacks - because he took a couple of Bankais to be killed first time. And then blast him before he uses Vollstandig and hope it doesn't trigger on death.

Another scenario is just put him in some dimension, where he can't get out.

So how likely are foes mentioned to use their most powerful technique on the spot, on some braggart waving sword and shield.

These kinds of comparisons are easy and doable, so why are you wasting everyone's time talking about a moon-splitting laser that's nowhere to be found in either series?
It was mentioned that someone had a Moon destroying power, while Bleach didn't. Guess, it's one of those Truth orbs or something.

This said, I do think only good matches for Gerard in Naruto would be Kaguya, Sage Obito and Sage Madara.
I can see Kaguya just sticking him into a different dimension. But what would Obito do? Soul Drain? That probably doesn't work, Gerard is part of Soul King. Draining Soul King or any of his parts is like trying to eat a house of Parliament. With knife and fork.

Mato

2016-10-25, 01:28 PM

Amaterasu has so many ludicrous inconsistencies we cant really judge it.I feel it's been pretty consistent if you give a little grace to the first time it's used since the mangekyou wasn't fully invented yet when Itach came back. The manga simply portrays it as an inextinguishable flame. Like that samurai's pals were rushing foreward to put him out and had to be told it's not a normal flame so the only easily identifiable abnormal characteristic is it's color.

Black Zetsu claims to White Zetsu that it can burn fire because Susake and Itachi were both using an evenly matched fire technique and Itachi used a second one on top of that to overcome the difference which to me makes the claim a little subjective through it doesn't prove one way or another. Burning a hole through the fire resistant esophagus doesn't either, a lot of things are resistant to fire (like metal) but that doesn't mean it's fire proof.

As far as I know it was only the databook attempted to describe it as burning as hot as the sun. At least, the wiki claims the databook did. Would you like me to edit it to say something else before you check? :smallamused:

It was mentioned that someone had a Moon destroying power, while Bleach didn't. Guess, it's one of those Truth orbs or something.That is pretty close to what happened. In The Last the main villain, Toneri, enters an alternative Six-Sage mode based off Hagoromo's brother Hamura using an enhanced Byakugan called a Tenseigan rather than a more Sharingan-based progression. By combining all of his Truth Seeking Balls into a single he was able to cut through the hollow moon.

The exact nature of those orbs is hard to discern through. They appear to be easily knocked aside or broken if you have natural energy otherwise they cause a total annihilation effect even if the normal chakra power behind the attack is several magnitudes higher than the natural energy one. It's one of those things you just have to say "it's magic!". But since Naruto doesn't summon any Truth Seeking Balls in The Last or Boruto films, we thankfully don't have to debate if the reishi Quincy's use is the same as natural energy and how that makes Ichigo a Sage.

Traab

2016-10-25, 03:05 PM

Ok, lets ignore the whole hot as the sun part, its still very non physics friendly. It is capable of blasting through something meant to handle fire. That alone shows its hotter than regular fire. Tell me then, how was naruto able to stand close enough to practically give it eskimo kisses if its that powerful a fire? It is clearly not radiating heat. In addition, it doesnt spread like normal fire. It hits its target and stays there. Thats not something fire DOES. And for being hot enough to burn through nominally fire resistant things, it sure didnt seem to do anything but freak out that samurai as he didnt look burned after his flaming armor was removed. Seriously, I feel like I could block it from hitting me with a piece of paper. Sure the paper would be destroyed, but the black fire doesnt spread so thats all that gets destroyed. And it doesnt radiate heat so I dont have to worry about it while its burning off. (Yes im exaggerating for effect)

-D-

2016-10-25, 03:31 PM