GFB & BB are these really good?

[Linker2k]

So i'm creating a EK that will use swords and when i'm thinking about cantrips its impossible not to look at GFB & BB. But are these actually useful for a fighter?

I get that for a bladesinger wizard or a bladelock warrior as they have few attacks these can be justified. Bu how do these cantrips surpass the multiattack feature.

1) First of all you put all of your chips on one attack, you miss, good luck next round.

2)BB if the target stays locked it does not even do extra damage. For a rogue or a SB that can move w/o OAs this is gold good, but for a fighter?

3)GFB its a little better when you fight with multiple objectives, starting at lv5 you do 2d8 + int + your attack, but its the all or nothing i put on 1) and also the extra attack allows to roll twice and do 1dX+mod+dueling twice.

So, why should any fighter pick these cantrips?

[RulesJD]

So i'm creating a EK that will use swords and when i'm thinking about cantrips its impossible not to look at GFB & BB. But are these actually useful for a fighter?

I get that for a bladesinger wizard or a bladelock warrior as they have few attacks these can be justified. Bu how do these cantrips surpass the multiattack feature.

1) First of all you put all of your chips on one attack, you miss, good luck next round.

2)BB if the target stays locked it does not even do extra damage. For a rogue or a SB that can move w/o OAs this is gold good, but for a fighter?

3)GFB its a little better when you fight with multiple objectives, starting at lv5 you do 2d8 + int + your attack, but its the all or nothing i put on 1) and also the extra attack allows to roll twice and do 1dX+mod+dueling twice.

So, why should any fighter pick these cantrips?

1. BB locks down an enemy to help you actually be a tank. Combine with Flaming Sphere for increased damage output.

2. Level 7 EK ability = it is just simply better in every way than Extra Attack up to level 11. Even after that when you get the increased damage output in BB at level (16?) it gets up to greater average damage again.

[MaxWilson]

So, why should any fighter pick these cantrips?

If you have the Warcaster feat for some reason (e.g. you're an EK), Booming Blade gives you a stronger opportunity attack and thus more deterrence/control than your built-in opportunity attack.

If you don't have magic weapons, it's potentially useful to have some magic damage on tap, e.g. against werewolves and demons.

Cantrip + EK 7 bonus attack can, as mentioned by a previous poster, sometimes be better than a Multiattack sequence. It depends on details of your feats, weapons, bonus action options, etc., but for e.g. a Sharpshooter-specialized Fighter 8/Rogue 2, it's better at long range to do (snipe, snipe, hide) than it is to charge into melee with (Booming Blade, bonus rapier attack)--but if you're forced into melee, (Booming Blade, bonus rapier attack) is a better and stronger option than your basic multiattack (rapier attack x2).

In short, it's an option, and sometimes it's worth exercising that option. But it's never going to give you top-tier damage, so it shouldn't be your primary option. (It can give a pure Rogue top-tier damage, but we're talking about fighters here.)

[D.U.P.A.]

Until level 5, they add more effects to the basic attack, like some minor splashing with greenflame or more defender control with booming. After that, is more of equal, unless you need some extra features out of it. From level 7 they become quite good as you can make an extra basic attack after using one of these cantrips if you have no other use with your bonus action.

[Linker2k]

Until level 5, they add more effects to the basic attack, like some minor splashing with greenflame or more defender control with booming. After that, is more of equal, unless you need some extra features out of it. From level 7 they become quite good as you can make an extra basic attack after using one of these cantrips if you have no other use with your bonus action.

Its one attack as ba? or you take the attack action (having several hits) as BA?

What im going for is, why taking these having such a short ammount of cantrips and having things like. mage hand, shokinh grasp, minor illusion, etc.

what make these shine?

[Tanarii]

Booming Blade is very good, if your trying to be a Tank. Because it gives you another method of control. For similar reasons Shocking Grasp is okay, it lets you (or more importantly an ally) get away from an enemy without worrying about an OA. Ray of Frost can be nice for similar reasons.

Greenflame Blade is just extra damage, so it's competing with Extra Attack, Poison Spray, and Acid Splash. And the latter two are saving throws so they work well in conjunction with Eldritch Strike in your war-magic rotation. (That said, I'm fairly sure that GFB works out to higher damage than Acid Splash, which it's most comparable to, even with a d8 weapon. That's off the cuff though it's been a while since I looked at the numbers.)

Both SCAG cantrips are good if you dump Int, which is in vogue for EKs in various forums.

There's no point in comparing them to "non-damage" cantrips. Too different. If you want those, you can weigh the value personally and take them or not take them, up to you.

[Addaran]

Its one attack as ba? or you take the attack action (having several hits) as BA?

What im going for is, why taking these having such a short ammount of cantrips and having things like. mage hand, shokinh grasp, minor illusion, etc.

what make these shine?

Compared to the other damage cantrips, it seems they win.

Normaly the cantrips do 1dX and the number of dice upgrade by one dice at key points.
The SCAG one start at 1dx +stat ( +rider) then upgrade by one dice at key points. So even ignoring riders, SCAG seems to always win compared to the other damage cantrips. (unless you want range or compare firebolt vs a small dice weapon)

[Tanarii]

That's assuming your physical attack stat and magical attack stat are equal. That's one of the most important things to note about them. A Str 18 Int 14 EK is going to be looking at them very differently from (say) a Dex 14 Cha 18 Warlock.

[Addaran]

That's assuming your physical attack stat and magical attack stat are equal. That's one of the most important things to note about them. A Str 18 Int 14 EK is going to be looking at them very differently from (say) a Dex 14 Cha 18 Warlock.

Yeah, i was assuming in the context of an EK.

For pure-ish caster, it's often better to just cantrip away because of the MAD and the hit-chances.
For classes with just one attack (like the arcane trickster, clerics) the SCAG wins out.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The first and most important thing is that they're a magical melee attack, which is really appealing on a conceptual level for mage-warriors and surprisingly uncommon in D&D-- you have fewer ways to (reliably) charge your sword with fire and smite a dude than one might hope.

Damage-wise, they're always better than an attack without Extra Attack, for obvious reasons, and just about always better than a melee-range cantrip like Shocking Grasp (as they get an ability-to-damage automatically)-- which is important for the many, many classes that don't get Extra Attack but might want to do some melee anyway. The cantrips are almost enough to keep up with an attack-focused class, if I recall the math correctly*, and when the rider effects come into play they're often better. Best of all, as cantrips the scaling is class-independent, meaning they're great for any multiclass build.

For an EK, the cantrips are less of a must-have, I admit. If you think about each one as being ~1.5 attacks, though, they start to look really nice with War Magic, effectively netting you your third attack four levels early. I think I'd take Booming Blade any way you slice it, since as a Fighter stuffed full of ASIs you have lots of ways to make use of it-- Spell Sniper and a reach weapon, Mobility, and War Caster can all make it brilliantly lethal.

*I cast Conjure Kyrx!

[MeeposFire]

I recall on a basic level that war magic with booming blade was really close to even the attack action with a single damage boosting feat. If you can manage to get the extra damage by forcing him to move then the damage was better. Getting that extra damage to happen is key mobile is a good feat to help with that.

[odigity]

That's assuming your physical attack stat and magical attack stat are equal. That's one of the most important things to note about them. A Str 18 Int 14 EK is going to be looking at them very differently from (say) a Dex 14 Cha 18 Warlock.

Wait, why? Both spells simply say "make a melee attack"; they don't specify using your spellcasting ability modifier for the attack. Presumably you'd use Str or Dex.

The only part of either cantrip that's affected by spellcasting ability modifier is part of the damage done to the second creature by Green-Flame Blade.

(If the cantrips used the spellcasting ability modifier, they'd be like Shillelagh, and would lead to all kinds of Cha-based melee builds.)

[Sicarius Victis]

Wait, why? Both spells simply say "make a melee attack"; they don't specify using your spellcasting ability modifier for the attack. Presumably you'd use Str or Dex.

That's...kinda the point. It's assuming STR/DEX for BB/GFB and INT/CHA for regular cantrips are the same. It's comparing the effectiveness of the weapon and non-weapon cantrips, and ignoring the probable to-hit bonuses that would be had from physical and mental attack stats.

[Gastronomie]

War Caster + Booming Blade is a darn nice combination. Smack massive damage into those who attempt to flee.

[Lollerabe]

Easy there Grod! Kyrx is Kryx' evil twin that only supplies you with lackluster napkin math and anecdotal 'evidence'.

On subject as someone playing a lvl 7 EK warmagic is awesome with GFB/BB so do yourself a favor and pick one of those.

[Linker2k]

Easy there Grod! Kyrx is Kryx' evil twin that only supplies you with lackluster napkin math and anecdotal 'evidence'.

On subject as someone playing a lvl 7 EK warmagic is awesome with GFB/BB so do yourself a favor and pick one of those.

One / Both / thats my question, does it have value to pick none, one or both.

[Cybren]

One / Both / thats my question, does it have value to pick none, one or both.

Provided you're playing a melee and not a ranged eldritch knight:

Before you get extra attack they're a no brainer: in most cases they're better than using the attack action

When you have extra attack they're variably better, since in some situations you will want the extra chance to land a hit

When you have war magic, they're usually better, unless you have another use for your bonus action (which is pretty common, actually, so you won't be on plan mono-booming blade usually)

When you have Extra Attack 2 you'd have to either do the math or play it by ear, but you're now weighing the scaled cantrip damage and a bonus action attack vs 3 attacks. Again a lot comes down to if you plan on using your bonus action for something else

Whether you'd pick both depends on if you have other cantrips you'd rather have. There's obvious diminishing returns in how similar they are, but they do different things.

[Foxhound438]

1. BB locks down an enemy to help you actually be a tank. Combine with Flaming Sphere for increased damage output.

2. Level 7 EK ability = it is just simply better in every way than Extra Attack up to level 11. Even after that when you get the increased damage output in BB at level (16?) it gets up to greater average damage again.

that's 17, but in any case that would depend on weapon choice. A s&b build's normal 3x attack at level 17 deals 3d8+15 (28.5) damage, and has an open bonus action for something like shield master to try to get advantage. The GFB/BB doing 2 attacks will deal 5d8+10 (32.5), so a bit more, but can't use another bonus action. Something using a greatsword, on the other hand, gets 6d6+15 (38) on normal attack, compared to 4d6+3d8+10 (37.5) with the cantrip->BA attack; a nominal difference, but puts you out of other BA options in addition to being slightly weaker.

For the OP, yes they're good. I would recommend that you pick one, not both, and base it mostly on the following: if you expect to see "mook piles", go for GFB. Otherwise, use booming blade, since the damage type is significantly better.

[RulesJD]

that's 17, but in any case that would depend on weapon choice. A s&b build's normal 3x attack at level 17 deals 3d8+15 (28.5) damage, and has an open bonus action for something like shield master to try to get advantage. The GFB/BB doing 2 attacks will deal 5d8+10 (32.5), so a bit more, but can't use another bonus action. Something using a greatsword, on the other hand, gets 6d6+15 (38) on normal attack, compared to 4d6+3d8+10 (37.5) with the cantrip->BA attack; a nominal difference, but puts you out of other BA options in addition to being slightly weaker.

For the OP, yes they're good. I would recommend that you pick one, not both, and base it mostly on the following: if you expect to see "mook piles", go for GFB. Otherwise, use booming blade, since the damage type is significantly better.

You damage calculation isn't accounting for the movement damage with BB or the secondary modifier damage from GFB. Obviously it won't trigger every time, but you're trading your BA for essentially an increased Sentinel feat (Target won't move because they don't want to trigger damage).

[Tanarii]

One / Both / thats my question, does it have value to pick none, one or both.
Do you have an effective at at-will ranged attack? If not, that can be , depending on what's expected in the campaign, a huge weak spot you might need to consider shoring up with a ranged cantrip.

[numerek]

that's 17, but in any case that would depend on weapon choice. A s&b build's normal 3x attack at level 17 deals 3d8+15 (28.5) damage, and has an open bonus action for something like shield master to try to get advantage. The GFB/BB doing 2 attacks will deal 5d8+10 (32.5), so a bit more, but can't use another bonus action. Something using a greatsword, on the other hand, gets 6d6+15 (38) on normal attack, compared to 4d6+3d8+10 (37.5) with the cantrip->BA attack; a nominal difference, but puts you out of other BA options in addition to being slightly weaker.

For the OP, yes they're good. I would recommend that you pick one, not both, and base it mostly on the following: if you expect to see "mook piles", go for GFB. Otherwise, use booming blade, since the damage type is significantly better.

correction
6d6+15(36) not 38

additional information
if you had the Great Weapon Fighting style it would be 40
with cantrip would be 40.16667

and like others have said booming blade + spell sniper + polearm or whip is pretty sweet against creatures with no ranged attack because they either do nothing or take an additional 1d8 - 4d8 or 4.5 to 18 damage.

and depending how your dm is I would think you should be able to get the extra damage on green flame blade enough to be worth it and you can use it to bypass armor if a high armor class guy is standing next to a lower armor class guy. if you guys are really having a hard time hitting a guy you could have a low armor class guy on your team stand next to a hard to hit guy and take one for the team. or maybe you could carry around doves and bunnies and attack them to apply the rider damage on someone else.

[Foxhound438]

You damage calculation isn't accounting for the movement damage with BB or the secondary modifier damage from GFB. Obviously it won't trigger every time, but you're trading your BA for essentially an increased Sentinel feat (Target won't move because they don't want to trigger damage).

That is in fact correct. I also left out Great Weapon Master, Flaming Sphere, etc. that would shift things farther in the favor of attack action for the greatsword case. I left out the damage from the riders because for BB you can't garuntee the damage, and for GFB you're splitting your damage rather than focus firing. I left out GWM and FS as a benefit of the doubt (maybe the -5 to attack isn't worth, maybe you're saving/out of L2 slots)

[Foxhound438]

correction
6d6+15(36) not 38


clearly the extra 2 came from a rock that fell on their head, but only in the attack action case

[Linker2k]

Do you have an effective at at-will ranged attack? If not, that can be , depending on what's expected in the campaign, a huge weak spot you might need to consider shoring up with a ranged cantrip.

I'm a DEX fighter so i have a longbow as my INT wont go above 14

[CaptainSarathai]

I'm a DEX fighter so i have a longbow as my INT wont go above 14

So why are you asking? You're better staying at rage and shooting, probably.

Otherwise, in melee, you're definitely better with the SCAG cantrips and the 7th level bonus attack, because your best weapon's a Rapier.

5th level, Dex18
SCAG = 2d8 + 1dex (13) + secondary
Multi = 2d8 + 2dex (17)
TWF = 2d8 + 1d6 + 3dex (24.5)

7th level, Dex20
SCAG = 4d8 + 2dex (28) + secondary
Multi = 3d8 + 3dex (28.5)
TWF = 3d8 + 1d6 + 4dex (37)

17th level, Dex20
SCAG = 5d8 + 2dex (32.5) + secondary
Multi = 4d8 + 4dex (38)
TWF = 4d8 + 1d6 + 5dex (46.5)

If you trigger or have a target for the secondary, you do more damage over all. If not, you're better off swinging your normal attack. If you want single-target damage as a Dexy Fighter, you either shoot them, or you grab a knife for that other hand.