Rogues thief archetype

[Doomwhispo]

Would you guys consider the thief archetype weak? Does it need some homebrew or is it fine like it is? I find some stuff like the ability to interact with objecth as a bonus action or steal from an opponent in battle almost useless (you can always loot him when he is dead). So.. I'm hoping to get some feedback from people playing it and also if it is the case that it needs some hombrewing maybe some ideas on that.

[WickerNipple]

Would you guys consider the thief archetype weak? Does it need some homebrew or is it fine like it is? I find some stuff like the ability to interact with objecth as a bonus action or steal from an opponent in battle almost useless (you can always loot him when he is dead). So.. I'm hoping to get some feedback from people playing it and also if it is the case that it needs some hombrewing maybe some ideas on that.

It gets one of the best capstone powers in the game.

Beyond that it mostly concentrates on stuff that makes you better at the traditional thief role, which is the point.

[Jjj111]

I've always thought it was weak, but I can see it being strong and fun if you have a DM that gives his bad guys interesting items (scrolls, potions, etc) that you can swipe mid-battle and use against them!

[Doomwhispo]

It gets one of the best capstone powers in the game.

Beyond that it mostly concentrates on stuff that makes you better at the traditional thief role, which is the point.

What capstone?

[Jjj111]

What capstone?

Level 17 thief's take two full turns during the first round of any combat, and it's at different initiatives so they also sneak attack twice.

[Coffee_Dragon]

It saves you from having to play a spell-slinger or someone with lots of enforced cosplay fluff. I'd say it's fine.

[Doomwhispo]

Ah ok. Yeah I don't think lvl 17 abilities are that good.. u can use them for 3 levels at most if you even get to 17 in the first place. But OK thanks for the feedback I'll leave it as it is for now.

[2D8HP]

It seems there's a lot of homebrew on this Forum to strengthen this or that class.
Maybe it would be easier to weaken the few classes (Wizard?) that no one suggests strengthening?

[DanyBallon]

It's good to remember that not all classes and archétypes are meant to be good and useful in a fight. Combat is only 1/3 of what D&D is. Thieves shines when they need to deal with traps, sneak and break into forbidden places. :smallbiggrin:

[PeteNutButter]

From an optimization stand point it is the worst option. While not terrible, it adds little to the rogue kit.

The level 3 ability was crippled by not allowing it to work with magic items. Making the only real uses for it the healers kit trick, the occasional theft of whats on an opponent, and phb stuff like Caltrops, trap, poison. The problem with all this stuff is it conflicts with cunning action, so even when you want to steal something from your opponent's belt you can't disengage to run away with it, leaving your relatively squishy self standing next to him for pummeling for his next turn. The lack of scaling of the items in the phb, makes them fall off pretty hard. A low level thief with enough gold to spend and access to vendors might feel like batman for a while. The problem in practice is these items quickly fall off and the cunning action disengage (if melee) or hide (if ranged) becomes a requirement for survival. Unless your DM is using kiddie gloves and not attacking you, you'll find that if a foe is a threat for the party tank, its deadly for you.

Second story work is practically fluff, but could come up occasionally in combat if DM is prone to do so.

The level 9 feature is just overkill, when combined with expertise. Most foes wouldn't have seen you anyways with an average passive perception around 12, by level 9 you should have about +12-13 to stealth (+4 prof, +4-5 dex, and +4 expertise). Even if you roll a one they fail to notice you passively. Alternatively you could take expertise in something else, and suffer trying to sneak at low levels. At level 11, this feature is completely negated. The whole point of advantage is to prevent bad rolls, you don't need more than a 23 in stealth and that's what a 10 should give you.

The level 13 feature is nice, but another DM dependent thing. You can't plan around magic items at all, let alone ones that no one in the party can use and therefore go to the guy that has a feature saying he gets the dregs. If the party wizard is nice, he could let you use a wand that you find, but its not so much a class feature at that point, just a pity redistribution of items.

17th level feature is very strong, but as mentioned comes so late.

A lot of the rogue's subclass abilities are fluff, but every other subclass gets a powerful ability that affects how they behave in combat at level 3. Swashbucklers can DW and still walk away and SA lone foes. Assassins nuke people if they can pull off surprise. AK's get spells, such as shield and BB. MMs can help as a bonus action, which is free advantage to an ally.

And thief's can grab things from opponents belts, or use an item that doesn't directly affect an opponent.

Poison and Healer's Kits are the most uses it sees. Poison is probably too expensive to use regularly at 100 gold a pop, and sits at DC 10 for 1d4 damage and ironically doesn't even "poison." Healer's Kits even with the feat are greatly outpaced by Healing Word spells, but could be valuable in a small party. Traps, caltrops, ball bearings etc, are cool for things like narrow hallways if the party is kiting or fleeing, but in most situations foes can just walk around them.

If you ask me thief needs more love to be competitive with the better options. Maybe lift the restriction on magic items, or allow fast hands to work with your 1/turn free object interaction instead of your bonus action.

[JellyPooga]

Urgh, this again.

The Thief is strictly worse than the other Archetypes...in combat.

Outside of combat, the Assassin is limited to social boons, the AT has a big list o' spells to choose from, but limited uses of them and the spells themselves have limited use. The Thief...the Thief can run and play all day and has a variety of situations it can deal with.

Need to get through that locked door in a hurry and don't want anyone to know about it? AT can't; Mage Hand has verbal components and Knock...well Knock alerts everyone in a 300ft radius that you're doing it and still takes up your whole action. Assassin? Nope, sorry, he's got nuthin'.

Want to dump Str, but still want to be able to clear a 10ft pit? Thief's your boy. AT can do it if he wastes a spell known on Jump, I guess...

Want to be the stealthiest of the stealthy stealthers? Free Advantage on Stealth is not to be underestimated. Sure the AT has Invisibility, but it doesn't last forever and has some pretty stringent limitations with regard to what you can do while remaining invisible.

UMD is very GM dependent, as another poster pointed out, but can also be extremely powerful. Running through a published adventure can often leave a party with items they simply can't use. Found a Staff of the Woodlands, but no-one wanted to play a Druid? Bingo Bango, the Thief knows what to do with it* and just gave the party a heap of Druid spells that might just be handy for that adventure; why else would the Staff be included if having the ability to Speak with Animals or Awaken a beast or plant, or similar, wasn't somehow integral (or at least useful) to the plot?

*(and incidentally, also just catapulted his Stealth score into the stratosphere with at-will Pass Without Trace).

Thief gets a lot of hate, but it's undeserved IMO. While the other Rogue Archetypes look good/better on paper, I've actually found the Thief to be the most satisfying to play. Sure, he doesn't shine in combat quite as much as the other Archetypes do, but when it comes to other things? Yeah, the Thief gets it done without any of the fanfare that comes with the other guys.

[CursedRhubarb]

I always thought it would be hilarious to play a thief that wound up with a Holy Avenger since they can ignore the class restriction and are able to attune to it. SInce it can be any sword you could wind up with a Scimitar, Rapier, or Short Sword version to stick with Dex and get Sneak Attack with it. Then you can go around pretending to be a paladin to get into high security holy places then clear the place of all the shines you can carry before just walking out the front door. XD

[Saggo]

The Thief is strictly worse than the other Archetypes...in combat.
Not even strictly, that's only the first round where Assassinate and Death Strike could trigger. After the first/surprise round, an Assassin is just a base Rogue in combat whereas every Thief feature is usable in every round of combat.

[JellyPooga]

Not even strictly, that's only the first round where Assassinate and Death Strike could trigger. After the first/surprise round, an Assassin is just a base Rogue in combat whereas every Thief feature is usable in every round of combat.

That first round is pretty significant, but point taken :smallwink:

[DanyBallon]

Not even strictly, that's only the first round where Assassinate and Death Strike could trigger. After the first/surprise round, an Assassin is just a base Rogue in combat whereas every Thief feature is usable in every round of combat.

I believe his point was that the game does not revolve only around combat. Almost any forum analysis of the differents classes consider only their usefulness in combat, while it's only a part of the game. D&D, especially in 5e, consist of Roleplaying, Exploration, and Combat. The importance of each may vary from game to game, but ideally should sit around 1/3 ofr each aspect.

[Jamesps]

In a game I ran the ability to climb at full movement rate was used by the party archer to great effect, making him frequently untargetable by opponents. Between that and cunning action dashes, he could end up almost anywhere on the battle field with an open shot at anything, and then back into cover before his turn ended.

[Biggstick]

I always thought it would be hilarious to play a thief that wound up with a Holy Avenger since they can ignore the class restriction and are able to attune to it. SInce it can be any sword you could wind up with a Scimitar, Rapier, or Short Sword version to stick with Dex and get Sneak Attack with it. Then you can go around pretending to be a paladin to get into high security holy places then clear the place of all the shines you can carry before just walking out the front door. XD

This right here. I agree that the level 17 ability is great, but this is the really awesome ability. If the DM tries to offer up a piece of loot no one can use, looks like the Thief will be able to utilize it. A Holy Avenger wielding Thief with some fancy looking armor should be able to bluff his way into just about any "good" place of worship should s/he choose to.

[CursedRhubarb]

This right here. I agree that the level 17 ability is great, but this is the really awesome ability. If the DM tries to offer up a piece of loot no one can use, looks like the Thief will be able to utilize it. A Holy Avenger wielding Thief with some fancy looking armor should be able to bluff his way into just about any "good" place of worship should s/he choose to.

Glamoured Armor would be perfect to go with this. Just think of all the shenanigans such a thief could pull off.

[Saggo]

That first round is pretty significant, but point taken :smallwink:
The first round is significant, agreed, but even so the DPR delta between Assassin and Thief in that first round is fairly manageable, given that it relies on the frequency of surprise rounds and that Thieves can Hide for advantage (so only a subset of first rounds do Assassins even have a DPR lead). Because of this and that the Thief archetype functions after the first round, I think they're actually pretty even in combat.


I believe his point was that the game does not revolve only around combat. Almost any forum analysis of the differents classes consider only their usefulness in combat, while it's only a part of the game. D&D, especially in 5e, consist of Roleplaying, Exploration, and Combat. The importance of each may vary from game to game, but ideally should sit around 1/3 ofr each aspect.

I wasn't disagreeing. My remarks where in addition to the out of combat utility of Thief, they're not as bad in combat as they were portrayed, inadvertently or otherwise. Combat is a disproportionately large part of the game, but that's a whole other discussion.

[MrFahrenheit]

A thief can be potentially more devastating than an assassin or AT if it gets a surprise round: "oh your great sword? You mean MY great sword? I'll just be putting this in my backpack..."

...of course, a thief/battlemaster can be more effective once combat starts: "I'm just gonna disarm your great sword and then swipe your backup short sword. I have no bonus actions left, but that's ok - if you hit me, it's just 1+STR. So whatever."

Only problem is those pesky monsters who don't use gear.

[PeteNutButter]

The first round is significant, agreed, but even so the DPR delta between Assassin and Thief in that first round is fairly manageable, given that it relies on the frequency of surprise rounds and that Thieves can Hide for advantage (so only a subset of first rounds do Assassins even have a DPR lead). Because of this and that the Thief archetype functions after the first round, I think they're actually pretty even in combat.


All rogues can hide for advantage... I'm not seeing where the thief is making up extra damage that the assassin would have accomplished IF he managed surprise.

Anyways for those saying thief is balanced around out of combat, that's just silly. Yes there are a lot of out of combat features in D&D, but a (sub)class should never be balanced around those. They are nice additions.

I don't even see what out-of-combat bonuses the thief is getting. Both third level features are combat based features. It doesn't matter that you can climb a little faster out of combat. The 9th level feature is redundant with the rogue's 11th level feature; no one is seeing you anyways.

Maybe the 13th level feature could maybe help outside of combat, being able to more convincingly impersonate or something, but assassin does that just as well.

Arcane trickster is worlds ahead of the others for out of combat interactions with mage hand tricks and spells.

[georgie_leech]

All rogues can hide for advantage... I'm not seeing where the thief is making up extra damage that the assassin would have accomplished IF he managed surprise.


I think the point is that Thieves at 9 get advantage on such checks, and so are more likely to be Hidden or otherwise properly Stealthing.

[Saggo]

All rogues can hide for advantage... I'm not seeing where the thief is making up extra damage that the assassin would have accomplished IF he managed surprise.

I didn't say Thief was making up extra damage, Assassinate just isn't making as much extra average DPR as people think since it relies on surprise (itself hard to quantify, but not exactly common) and advantage can be obtained by Thief (or Arcane Trickster, of course any Rogue can hide). While Assassin does have higher direct DPR because of (a subset) of first rounds, Thief has Fast Hands, Second-Story Work, and Use Magic Device all indirectly contributing to DPR (possibly) on every round.

[JellyPooga]

I don't even see what out-of-combat bonuses the thief is getting. Both third level features are combat based features.

How often do you climb in combat? How about jumping?


It doesn't matter that you can climb a little faster out of combat.

Just because someone is chasing your, doesn't mean you're "in combat".


The 9th level feature is redundant with the rogue's 11th level feature; no one is seeing you anyways.

A 3rd Level Rogue, with Expertise in Stealth and 16 Dex has a Stealth mod of +7. An Assassin or AT has Passive Stealth of 17. Thief has 22. That's pretty significant. It means that only those proficient in Perception or with a +2 Wis mod or higher ever really see you when you're being generally sneaky, as opposed to any bloke and his dog having even a chance. Combined with Reliable Talent, it's even better; sometimes Advantage doesn't help because you roll low on both dice; with Reliable Talent your minimum is the same, but your chance of rolling higher is much greater.


Maybe the 13th level feature could maybe help outside of combat, being able to more convincingly impersonate or something, but assassin does that just as well.

Unless the Assassin is asked to prove it. A disguise or bluff is only as good as its proof when put to the test. A Thief need only have the right magic item and he can "prove" he's a Paladin or a Druid by using something that everyone knows can only be used by them. An Assassin that rocks up with a Staff of the Woodlands could claim to be a Druid, but if put to the test and asked to demonstrate its power, he's stumped. The Thief doesn't have this problem. Additionally, any magic item that would otherwise be outside his capability that does grant some utility (such as the Staff of the Woodland), combat or not, is actually useful to the Thief. Is an Assassin really going to lug around a powerful magic item for the sole purpose of fooling a few Druids/Paladins/Whatevers?


Arcane trickster is worlds ahead of the others for out of combat interactions with mage hand tricks and spells.

I disagree. Arcane Trickster is great for the utility it brings through magic, but his lack of access to Ritual magic, limited Spells Known and low Spells/Day are a far cry from the be-all and end-all. He's a poor arcanist and once he's out of spells, he's not as good a thief. That's assuming the AT goes for utility rather than combat. I see more AT's with spells like Mirror Image, Blur and Haste than I do with Phantom Steed, Silent Image and Gaseous Form. I mean, when was the last time you saw an Arcane Trickster with a non-combat Spell Known?

[PeteNutButter]

How often do you climb in combat? How about jumping?

Not that often? I do think the climbing is nice if you can get up on something as an archer, but with bonus action dash you can already climb better than nonrogues if needed. It's just so situational, and when it does come up you still probably need to make an athletics check (which sucks depending on how your DM is with DCs).



Just because someone is chasing you, doesn't mean you're "in combat".

True but If your doing an out of combat chase you pretty much autowin because of cunning action. Situations where that comes up and makes the difference between you getting caught or getting away are few and far between.




A 3rd Level Rogue, with Expertise in Stealth and 16 Dex has a Stealth mod of +7. An Assassin or AT has Passive Stealth of 17. Thief has 22. That's pretty significant. It means that only those proficient in Perception or with a +2 Wis mod or higher ever really see you when you're being generally sneaky, as opposed to any bloke and his dog having even a chance. Combined with Reliable Talent, it's even better; sometimes Advantage doesn't help because you roll low on both dice; with Reliable Talent your minimum is the same, but your chance of rolling higher is much greater.

You're comparing a level 3 rogue with a level 9 thief feature? Of course your DM can do things as he pleases, but usually the one hiding is making the stealth check and the foe has to beat you with his passive check. Meaning all you have to do is beat his passive score, average around 12, unless he actively looks for you. And any rogue with expertise should have +13 by level 9. By level 11 any rogue gets 23 in stealth on a bad roll. If foes are still seeing you, then your DM is just constructing foes deliberately to see you. No amount of class features can beat the DM.



I disagree. Arcane Trickster is great for the utility it brings through magic, but his lack of access to Ritual magic, limited Spells Known and low Spells/Day are a far cry from the be-all and end-all. He's a poor arcanist and once he's out of spells, he's not as good a thief. That's assuming the AT goes for utility rather than combat. I see more AT's with spells like Mirror Image, Blur and Haste than I do with Phantom Steed, Silent Image and Gaseous Form. I mean, when was the last time you saw an Arcane Trickster with a non-combat Spell Known?

All the time. You just mention the spells you see them cast most. Any AT worth his salt has those covered and then a few out of combat options to go with it. Disguise self and invisibility are great out of combat.

Doesn't matter how good a thief is at sneaking if there is nothing to hide in. A brightly lit and guarded room? An invisible AT can walk right in to pilfer things unseen. He can even do so with Mage Hand, provided he can cast it outside of earshot. It lasts a minute though. Illusion spells in particular have a lot of out of combat applications.

The thief should be better at thieving things, but he really isn't.

[mgshamster]

All rogues can hide for advantage...

I think you misread the book. The ability to gain advantage in stealth is soecifically in the thief archetype, not the general rogue abilities.


It doesn't matter that you can climb a little faster out of combat.

Kind of amusing for me, as in the one game I'm playing a thief, we're planning a heist. Our current plan involves my character and one other to sneak in from the roof by climbing down to a window, stealing a bunch of stuff (while the rest of the party distracts the guards on floor 1), and then making our escape by climbing back up to the roof.

If we get chased (which I predict we will), that extra movement will come in *very* handy.

To top it off, the man on the roof has the urchin background, so when we flee the scene, that extra overland movement in a city will be very helpful as well.

[PeteNutButter]

I think you misread the book. The ability to gain advantage in stealth is soecifically in the thief archetype, not the general rogue abilities.


He said hide for advantage, presumably on your attack roll. Any rogue can do that as a bonus action in combat after level 2. Hiding with advantage is the thiefs level 9 ability if he moves half speed. An ability that is just overkill after expertise already broke the bounded accuracy by level 9. And it comes just two levels before every rogue can effectively take 10 on their stealth check.

[beargryllz]

Fast hands alone make the archetype worth taking. The other features are fairly mediocre.

Arcane tricksters have more utility but lack the action economy of the thief

[BillyBobShorton]

I don't like it at all. Can accomplish nearly the same with any number of builds, as well as having flavors of whatever class you decide to make into a thief. A Half Elf Lore Bard can be a thief with about a jillion other cool things. Same with a Trickery Cleric or any Wizard. Or a Shadow Monk. Hell, a Druid shapeshifter could be a better thief. And the other 2 Rogue archetypes seem vastly superior by comparison. 1 gets magic and a 3rd hand that basically IS a thief, the other does ridiculous damage and can still sneak around. The thief just... what does it do? Take stuff? Wow. Yeah... I'll pass.

[JellyPooga]

You're comparing a level 3 rogue with a level 9 thief feature?

Heh. Oops! My bad. Got my levels in a twist. 9th level Rogue with Expertise and (probably by that time) 18 Dex is looking at 22 Passive Stealth (which, yes, is a minimum once you reach level 11). Thief bumps that Passive to 27. It's still a significant difference.

Flipping to a couple of random, yet Challenge appropriate and higher, pages in the Monster Manual; a Deva (+9 Perception, CR:10) needs to roll an 18 to spot a level 9 Thief, a Beholder (+12 Perception, CR:13 and made of eyes) needs a 15 on the dice and even an Ancient Green Dragon (Perception +17, CR:22) only has a 50/50 chance of seeing you casually stroll by at half pace.

If we're talking about getting the drop on someone (or something), the Thief might not be the absolute best, but he does it more reliably than anyone else. Invisibility will let you do some otherwise impossible things, as you say, but it's only as long as the spell lasts and you have to know you want to be making a Stealth check in the next hour without wanting to cast another Concentration spell in between. That's also ignoring the possibility of your opponent having the ability to see invisible creatures or being able to generate an AMF of some description (thinking back to that Beholder).

The Thief can sneak into a dungeon without having to worry about the time scales involved; he can take his time planning his approach and seeking out the best course of action as situations arise. The Arcane Trickster has to do as much of his planning up front as he can and should something unexpected occur, he's more likely to be rushed into something he'd rather not be.


All the time. You just mention the spells you see them cast most. Any AT worth his salt has those covered and then a few out of combat options to go with it. Disguise self and invisibility are great out of combat.

AT has precious few Spells Known and most of them go on the combat buffs, in my experience. It doesn't leave a great deal of room for utilities, especially when you consider most of his spells/day will either be used or reserved for use in combat.

[mgshamster]

He said hide for advantage, presumably on your attack roll. Any rogue can do that as a bonus action in combat after level 2. Hiding with advantage is the thiefs level 9 ability if he moves half speed. An ability that is just overkill after expertise already broke the bounded accuracy by level 9. And it comes just two levels before every rogue can effectively take 10 on their stealth check.

Ah. I see how it was meant. My apologies.

[Sigreid]

It's my favorite rogue archetype. But then when I play a rogue I like to play a parkure master break in and escape artist and that's what it is.

[Hrugner]

Rogue excels when you often faces humanoids, deal with environmental obstacles, have access to magic items and useful mundane items. In a campaign where none of those things are true, you're rogue won't do much. You could adjust the class to get the same utility without those requirements, but it would become too powerful if those requirements were also met.

For a game where you primarily face creatures in a region with little terrain variance(or every enemy can fly) and not much access to inventory
3rd: add- use the net with their cunning action and increase the size of potential targets by one and give them the halfling and wood elf hide in partial cover abilities.
13th: replace use magic device with. Spend an action to Ignore one item requirement for feat and ability use, this requires concentration as if maintaining a spell.

[PeteNutButter]

Flipping to a couple of random, yet Challenge appropriate and higher, pages in the Monster Manual; a Deva (+9 Perception, CR:10) needs to roll an 18 to spot a level 9 Thief, a Beholder (+12 Perception, CR:13 and made of eyes) needs a 15 on the dice and even an Ancient Green Dragon (Perception +17, CR:22) only has a 50/50 chance of seeing you casually stroll by at half pace.

Again I feel its more apt to be comparing the foe's passive to your active check. If they aren't taking their action to look around, the rogue should be the one rolling. So with that in mind by level 11 the Deva won't see you regardless of subclass. The beholder won't see a normal rogue by level 11 either, 22 loses to 23. The dragon will not see the thief automatically, but he does have legendary actions to make a perception check if he feels like finding you bad enough. Keep in mind you still need cover to be hidden, so you won't be strolling by him regardless. :smalltongue:



If we're talking about getting the drop on someone (or something), the Thief might not be the absolute best, but he does it more reliably than anyone else. Invisibility will let you do some otherwise impossible things, as you say, but it's only as long as the spell lasts and you have to know you want to be making a Stealth check in the next hour without wanting to cast another Concentration spell in between. That's also ignoring the possibility of your opponent having the ability to see invisible creatures or being able to generate an AMF of some description (thinking back to that Beholder).

I'm not so sure about thief being the most reliable at getting the drop on foes. You have to move at half speed for that advantage. Unless you're anticipating combat, I doubt the party is ok with their scout halving their travel pace. Now if you are expecting combat, things like invisibility are great, depending on terrain, might even be required.



The Thief can sneak into a dungeon without having to worry about the time scales involved; he can take his time planning his approach and seeking out the best course of action as situations arise. The Arcane Trickster has to do as much of his planning up front as he can and should something unexpected occur, he's more likely to be rushed into something he'd rather not be.

Not saying its devoid of perks, just that its perks fail to do what it says on the tin. 80% of the time that advantage won't even help you. Dragons appear to be the only beasty in the monster manual that will actually passively spot a rogue of 11th+ level. Now plenty of things will detect you through other means.



AT has precious few Spells Known and most of them go on the combat buffs, in my experience. It doesn't leave a great deal of room for utilities, especially when you consider most of his spells/day will either be used or reserved for use in combat.

I played an AT. At level 7 they know 5 spells. You take one illusion level 2 buff spell, shield as your out of school choice, maybe one save or suck, such as Tasha's and then you've got nothing else to choose from for combat. So you take 2 out of combat spells. The limits of illusion/enchantment pretty much force you to.

Now as for being out of slots for the day, that is a very real concern. But if you are planning a heist or something, he'd definitely be prepared.


It's my favorite rogue archetype. But then when I play a rogue I like to play a parkure master break in and escape artist and that's what it is.

That's my actual problem with the subclass. Any rogue can be the master break in and escape artist. The subclass is a trap option that generates a feel that the core class already accomplishes.

It's like if there were a wizard subclass that was all about throwing fireballs and casting devastating high level combat controlling spells, but all it did was give you +2 shiny points each time you cast a good spell (shiny points are redeemable for nothing). Anyways there'd be a ton of wizards out there stacking the **** out of those shiny points, and not one of them would be optimized.

The average not-optimizing player doesn't look at the mechanics of a class, just the feel. So like the shiner wizard, the thief draws in fans that aren't getting what they came for. Just like any wizard can cast fireball any rogue can steal. I love the idea of the thief archetype, but I think it is mechanically weaker than its peers.

[MeeposFire]

Originally when the PHB first came out UMD worked with cunning action to allow bonus action magic item shenanigans. When it was brought up to the designers they went "whoops" and made sure to include a special rule that made magic items not work with cunning action anymore by making it a new special action not in the game until that point.

Honestly looking at it they really should have kept it. Remember that you can only have three items of attunement at a time and that binding yourself to an active use item you may be losing other really nice items. Also even though you get charges back you still cannot use them too much because you really don't want to risk losing the item. If that wasn't enough generally you do not get any choice in what items you find and get and other classes may want hose items more (and you might want other items first too). It is rare (though not unheard of) where UMD really is that useful due to magic items relative rarity and how most of the time other classes already can use them so why should you? This would make thieves more likely to want these items and for other characters to allow them to have them.

Even without this ability thieves are pretty nice. Cunning action upgrade is awesome, stealth upgrade is good, UMD is potentially awesome though it does so only rarely, and its level 17 is the best of the all the sub class options.

The climbing bonus is weak though.

Assassin is way overvalued I think. Yes if you get surprise it is nice but outside of that it is mostly fluff. The death strike is nasty but is still not as common to get as you think and con saves are relatively common on nasty enemies.

Arcane trickster is versatile as well but you may not want spells and some of the thief abilities get you more. Still spells are a fun feature and so it certainly is a good option.

Swashbuckler is better in a straight up fight which gives it a key niche that thief does not do.

Mastermind is best for giving out help. If you do not want that then I htink you are missing the point of the sub class.

Really I think it depends on what you want to do but if you do not have anything specific in mind thief is a great option. Personally I think it will end up more useful than assassin and has similar utility to an AT though better at some things and not as good in others.

[Sir cryosin]

I like the Thief fast hands ability. Sneak up steal the Wizards Arcane fouse, component pouch, steal the fighters weapons befor the fight. Run around drop ball barings, caltrops, poor out Alchemist fire, replie poison to your weapon. Ect.... there are other thing you might thinkle about in the heat of the moment.

[Sigreid]

Again I feel its more apt to be comparing the foe's passive to your active check. If they aren't taking their action to look around, the rogue should be the one rolling. So with that in mind by level 11 the Deva won't see you regardless of subclass. The beholder won't see a normal rogue by level 11 either, 22 loses to 23. The dragon will not see the thief automatically, but he does have legendary actions to make a perception check if he feels like finding you bad enough. Keep in mind you still need cover to be hidden, so you won't be strolling by him regardless. :smalltongue:



I'm not so sure about thief being the most reliable at getting the drop on foes. You have to move at half speed for that advantage. Unless you're anticipating combat, I doubt the party is ok with their scout halving their travel pace. Now if you are expecting combat, things like invisibility are great, depending on terrain, might even be required.



Not saying its devoid of perks, just that its perks fail to do what it says on the tin. 80% of the time that advantage won't even help you. Dragons appear to be the only beasty in the monster manual that will actually passively spot a rogue of 11th+ level. Now plenty of things will detect you through other means.



I played an AT. At level 7 they know 5 spells. You take one illusion level 2 buff spell, shield as your out of school choice, maybe one save or suck, such as Tasha's and then you've got nothing else to choose from for combat. So you take 2 out of combat spells. The limits of illusion/enchantment pretty much force you to.

Now as for being out of slots for the day, that is a very real concern. But if you are planning a heist or something, he'd definitely be prepared.



That's my actual problem with the subclass. Any rogue can be the master break in and escape artist. The subclass is a trap option that generates a feel that the core class already accomplishes.

It's like if there were a wizard subclass that was all about throwing fireballs and casting devastating high level combat controlling spells, but all it did was give you +2 shiny points each time you cast a good spell (shiny points are redeemable for nothing). Anyways there'd be a ton of wizards out there stacking the **** out of those shiny points, and not one of them would be optimized.

The average not-optimizing player doesn't look at the mechanics of a class, just the feel. So like the shiner wizard, the thief draws in fans that aren't getting what they came for. Just like any wizard can cast fireball any rogue can steal. I love the idea of the thief archetype, but I think it is mechanically weaker than its peers.

AFB at the moment but if I recall they get things like climbing walls faster than other rogues making them the alpha thief.

[MeeposFire]

YEa I don't think you can really say thief is a trap. I think you can get agreement that it may not be the best sub class but it certainly can pull its weight as a character. It does not make you worse and honestly for the most part I find them more helpful in a party than an assassin because really the only thing the assassin brings specifically for the first 16 levels that anybody cares about only happens when you have surprise and in games I have been in and seen that does not occur enough that it would raise the rest of the sub class to being better than the thief. Thief is just far more useful on the whole.

[JellyPooga]

Again I feel its more apt to be comparing the foe's passive to your active check. If they aren't taking their action to look around, the rogue should be the one rolling. So with that in mind by level 11 the Deva won't see you regardless of subclass. The beholder won't see a normal rogue by level 11 either, 22 loses to 23. The dragon will not see the thief automatically, but he does have legendary actions to make a perception check if he feels like finding you bad enough. Keep in mind you still need cover to be hidden, so you won't be strolling by him regardless. :smalltongue:

True enough about passive vs. active, but if neither party is aware of the others' presence (which should be pretty much all the time when it comes to scouting out a "classic" dungeon crawl where the PC's don't really know what's around the corner and the NPC's don't know the PC's are invading), then both using passive is appropriate.

Cover is the key here; ever seen an ancient dragons hoard? That's some cover I can see strolling past! :smalltongue:


I'm not so sure about thief being the most reliable at getting the drop on foes. You have to move at half speed for that advantage. Unless you're anticipating combat, I doubt the party is ok with their scout halving their travel pace.

That depends on how much the party appreciate their scout and getting the drop on their foes, I guess. Back in 3.5 (I know, I know...this isn't 3.5, but hear me out)...anyways...Back in 3.5, you had to move at half pace to make a Stealth check at all; it's pretty much an expected norm that if you're trying to be quiet, you're not running full pelt down the corridor. As for reliability, even with Invisibility, a 1 on the dice is a 1 on the dice and a good roll by your opponent can negate your spell. Advantage reduces the odds of getting that 1 from 5% to 0.25%...that's pretty reliable by comparison!


I played an AT. At level 7 they know 5 spells. You take one illusion level 2 buff spell, shield as your out of school choice, maybe one save or suck, such as Tasha's and then you've got nothing else to choose from for combat. So you take 2 out of combat spells. The limits of illusion/enchantment pretty much force you to.

At level 20 an AT knows 13 spells across four spell levels. Assuming you only take as few as 2 combat spells per spell level (and that's being generous, by my count), that only leaves a total of 5 utility spells at level 20. That's not much to boast about. Admittedly, the Thief is only rocking +climb/jump, fast hands, UMD, super stealth and "I go twice", which is five effects, one of which is explicitly a combat buff, so yeah, the Thief is technically lagging a little, except the AT can run out of spells...the Thief doesn't and that's an important consideration.

As you say, good planning and preparation can help, but it only goes so far. In the average adventuring day, there's not really much preparation you can do and 9/10 (in my experience), you don't know what's around the next corner. Unless you're willing to subscribe to a 5 minute work-day, or you don't actually use your primary archetype feature, the Arcane Trickster is a fast burning candle.

[PeteNutButter]

YEa I don't think you can really say thief is a trap. I think you can get agreement that it may not be the best sub class but it certainly can pull its weight as a character. It does not make you worse and honestly for the most part I find them more helpful in a party than an assassin because really the only thing the assassin brings specifically for the first 16 levels that anybody cares about only happens when you have surprise and in games I have been in and seen that does not occur enough that it would raise the rest of the sub class to being better than the thief. Thief is just far more useful on the whole.

True, its a bit too far to call it an actual trap. I just feel it just needs a bit more love.


True enough about passive vs. active, but if neither party is aware of the others' presence (which should be pretty much all the time when it comes to scouting out a "classic" dungeon crawl where the PC's don't really know what's around the corner and the NPC's don't know the PC's are invading), then both using passive is appropriate.

Cover is the key here; ever seen an ancient dragons hoard? That's some cover I can see strolling past! :smalltongue:

That depends on how much the party appreciate their scout and getting the drop on their foes, I guess. Back in 3.5 (I know, I know...this isn't 3.5, but hear me out)...anyways...Back in 3.5, you had to move at half pace to make a Stealth check at all; it's pretty much an expected norm that if you're trying to be quiet, you're not running full pelt down the corridor. As for reliability, even with Invisibility, a 1 on the dice is a 1 on the dice and a good roll by your opponent can negate your spell. Advantage reduces the odds of getting that 1 from 5% to 0.25%...that's pretty reliable by comparison!

At level 20 an AT knows 13 spells across four spell levels. Assuming you only take as few as 2 combat spells per spell level (and that's being generous, by my count), that only leaves a total of 5 utility spells at level 20. That's not much to boast about. Admittedly, the Thief is only rocking +climb/jump, fast hands, UMD, super stealth and "I go twice", which is five effects, one of which is explicitly a combat buff, so yeah, the Thief is technically lagging a little, except the AT can run out of spells...the Thief doesn't and that's an important consideration.

As you say, good planning and preparation can help, but it only goes so far. In the average adventuring day, there's not really much preparation you can do and 9/10 (in my experience), you don't know what's around the next corner. Unless you're willing to subscribe to a 5 minute work-day, or you don't actually use your primary archetype feature, the Arcane Trickster is a fast burning candle.

All good points. The AT might only know 13 spells at level 20, but for the bulk of his career he has about 3.5 spells known per level of spell he knows. So he typically picks up at least 1 spell per level that is out of combat. The resource limitation is pretty tight though, no doubt.

Overall the subclasses of the rogue are on the weaker end of martial classes as far as combat goes. Compared to the direct combat increases of the subclasses of barbarian, fighter, ranger, monk etc they don't give as much. The rogue core kit just gives the character everything it needs to operate.

[Lollerabe]

We gave the entire thief subclass except the 17th level feature to all rogues and 'scrapped' the thief (thanks Kryx).

As we felt that all the thiefs features should be rogue features, so far it really hasen't broken a thing and our rogue (who chose thief original) is loving all his new swashbuckler tricks. YMMV but it really hasen't broken anything at our table yet.

[Specter]

It's not weak, but the whole Use an Object thing is poorly explained, and thus you should check with your DM to see if the objects you want can be used. Manacles, holy water and stuff like that tends to generate a lot of in-game discussion.

[Contrast]

I've said this before in another thread but I think of most of the rogue subclasses as being kind of weak (I would say swashbuckler was the best for reasons to follow followed by arcane trickster).

I think the rogue class was set up with most of the heavy lifting of how you mechanically play the character being done in the main class abilities. You will be sneak attacking, cunning actioning and expertising all day long. You could play a rogue with no subclass and still be a perfectly viable character in my opinion. This is why so many of the subclass features from the various classes are a bit meh - the main class itself already has a tonne going for it, you got offence, you got defence, you got utility.

So do I think Thief is too weak? Kinda, but I don't necessarily think there's a massive problem.

The reason I see the swashbuckler as the best is because it allows you to rogue harder effectively. You do what a rogue does and you do it better. You get a number of broadly useful abilities and bonuses to things you will be doing anyway which don't conflict with other features.

AT I see as the second best because of the sheer utility of spells. They're super limited (seriously, don't go into AT if you want to play a spell caster) but sometimes simply hiding doesn't work and an illusion or invisibility will save the day. Also invisible mage hand makes a lot of things a lot simpler. I was amused to see someone in the thread saying their experience is for ATs to have combat spells. I have literally never cast a spell in combat as an AT, the wizards who have spells to burn can do that, I'm busy stabbing people in combat. (Edit - retraction, I have used Shield! ...and Booming Blade I guess if that counts :smallbiggrin:)

I personally think the assassin is overrated but this may just be a game style thing. Over the years I would say that I've probably fought 15+ combats for every 1 where we got a surprise round.

I consider the other archetypes to mostly get abilities which don't significantly increase their overall power. A lot of the abilities are very niche which massively narrows how useful they are broadly (though obviously they can still be very good in specific situations).


To those saying that the 9th level thief ability is good - I would point out that in a recent thread about how invisibility and hiding works a lot of posters said they would let being invisible grant advantage to a stealth check (on the basis that you are now only having to concentrate on not make noise rather than not making noise and not being seen). So that is something to consider in the AT vs Thief balance.

Edit2 - Another issue I think a lot of rogue subclasses have is that rogues are often already going to be using their action, bonus action and reaction every single turn. And then the subclass gives them something else to do except they're still better off just disengaging or hiding or the like. So while there is some marginal increase in situational utility, the strict power boost just isn't there.

[Lollerabe]

Hence why my table copied Kryx' solution.
It seems the thief archetype was more a 'we NEED a thief archetype' than a 'wow we got all these cool features, maybe they should become an archetype'.

Obviously that's just a personal opinion, but I really feel like 80% of the thief archetype are things all rogues should be able to do.

[georgie_leech]

Hence why my table copied Kryx' solution.
It seems the thief archetype was more a 'we NEED a thief archetype' than a 'wow we got all these cool features, maybe they should become an archetype'.

Obviously that's just a personal opinion, but I really feel like 80% of the thief archetype are things all rogues should be able to do.

Thing is though, it's been some time since Rogue was synonymous with Thief. If I want a dashing swordsman that fights with wit, not skill, and doesn't use magic, it doesn't make sense for him to be particularly stealthy or good at breaking into locked windows, even if he is quick to exploit a momentary opening with a precise stab.

[Lollerabe]

That's a fair point, we approached it more like ' would this buff break anything ?' We thought not.
'Would this buff be super fun for rogue players and reward creative play?" We thought so.

Again I'm not saying it's for everybody, we just thought the thief was more flavor than power and added it to all rogues, so far it hasen't broken anything and the rogue feels awesome - hurray for my table right?

[JellyPooga]

To those saying that the 9th level thief ability is good - I would point out that in a recent thread about how invisibility and hiding works a lot of posters said they would let being invisible grant advantage to a stealth check (on the basis that you are now only having to concentrate on not make noise rather than not making noise and not being seen). So that is something to consider in the AT vs Thief balance.

Being Invisible grants you the ability to "hide in plain sight", where otherwise you'd require concealment. A 10th level Ranger has to spend an entire minute to achieve that and even then they can't even move without revealing themselves. That's a pretty formidable boon. Adding anything else is strictly a houserule, but I can see the logic. Having said that, such a houserule would very much tread on the toes of the Thief and if using it, then yeah, of course the Thief is going to look weak by comparison. It's also going to tread somewhat on the toes of Enhance Ability and (to an extent) Pass Without Trace, turning an already good spell into a better one. I'd be careful about using it.