Fun Wildshape/PrC Choices for This Build?

[supersonic29]

So I've wanted to play a Master of Many Forms (CA) for a long time and when a new campaign started up recently, I decided to finally do so. To my surprise, the DM permitted me to use the Mulhorandi Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) template to qualify for the prestige class. As such, this is where my build is right now (with the LA bought off):
Changeling, IIRC my feats are Able Learner, Combat Expertise (bonus), Multiattack, Persona Immersion (probably not in that order)


1
Monk (Passive Way variant)


2
Master of Many Forms


3
Master of Many Forms


4
Master of Many Forms


So as the title says, I'm gradually assembling a list of forms to use and the relevant stats to make wildshaping happen much faster during the sessions and trying to get a nice variety of things good for combat as well as utility/RP. I'd also like to know if I should just ride MoMF to 7th level and then switch PrC's or if I should dip something else (Nature's Warrior? Planar Shepherd? If so, what plane?) before then, or even what I should go for once I do pass 7th level of MoMF.
I'll also add that the campaign is not heavy in optimization in the slightest, (I wouldn't be a monk if it was) as we have a couple members very new to the system, so fun but not ideal is very much allowed. :smallbiggrin:

[jdizzlean]

when i was building my MoMF, i wanted to play Planar Shepard, but my GM shot that down w/ the reasoning that how would you ever get to the elemental plane in the first place, sad day for me.

I'm building mine w/ a split on the ranks of Warshaper, which could be fun for a monk variation to use also

here's my thread w/ lots of links on all that:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503621-3-5-Druid-advancement-questions

[Venger]

link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472737-Updated-Master-of-Many-Forms-Bible-official-wild-shape-rules-(recovered)) to the momf bible, a very good jumping off point.

honestly, you could do worse than ride momf out to 10. you've also got 9 levels to work with rather than just 5, so have much more latitude. check out warshaper and nature's warrior. both are popular choices for momfs.

[Pyromancer999]

How did you manage to enter the PrC without Endurance? Did your DM waive that requirement? If he did, that's all good, just noting that you are lacking a normal prerequisite and wondering why.

Assuming that's alright, Monk 1/MoMF 10/Planar Shepherd 9 does nice things, like letting you turn into most everything, as magical beasts and outsiders are provided by Planar Shepherd. Depending on your preference, you can swap out 3 levels of MoMF for Warshaper 2/Nature's Warrior 1.

[eggynack]

One amusingly powerful thing you can do with MoMF that isn't listed in the bible is the use of some monstrous humanoid forms from MM V, like hobgoblin warsoul, to access some casting. I have some more detail in the handbook. Should be even sweeter with early access.

[Pyromancer999]

One amusingly powerful thing you can do with MoMF that isn't listed in the bible is the use of some monstrous humanoid forms from MM V, like hobgoblin warsoul, to access some casting. I have some more detail in the handbook. Should be even sweeter with early access.

Does that mean that if you can access True Dragon forms of sufficient HD, you could get Sorcerer casting?

[eggynack]

Does that mean that if you can access True Dragon forms of sufficient HD, you could get Sorcerer casting?
Nope. Or, probably not. The question of what ability type casting is is somewhat open in the general case, so unlabeled casting isn't all that interesting. The MM V monstrous humanoids are useful because their casting is in the form of an Ex special quality, and you eventually get those with MoMF.

[Pyromancer999]

Nope. Or, probably not. The question of what ability type casting is is somewhat open in the general case, so unlabeled casting isn't all that interesting. The MM V monstrous humanoids are useful because their casting is in the form of an Ex special quality, and you eventually get those with MoMF.

Ah. Knew about the Monstrous Humanoid spellcasting(I've read about it before), but was unsure on dragons.

[supersonic29]

How did you manage to enter the PrC without Endurance? Did your DM waive that requirement? If he did, that's all good, just noting that you are lacking a normal prerequisite and wondering why.

Assuming that's alright, Monk 1/MoMF 10/Planar Shepherd 9 does nice things, like letting you turn into most everything, as magical beasts and outsiders are provided by Planar Shepherd. Depending on your preference, you can swap out 3 levels of MoMF for Warshaper 2/Nature's Warrior 1.

The answer to this is a poor one in that I think both myself and My DM missed this from the page layout, I also need Alertness. So I'll be having a little retroactive whoopsie fixing of that... May drop persona immersion and take a second flaw?


link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472737-Updated-Master-of-Many-Forms-Bible-official-wild-shape-rules-(recovered)) to the momf bible, a very good jumping off point.

honestly, you could do worse than ride momf out to 10. you've also got 9 levels to work with rather than just 5, so have much more latitude. check out warshaper and nature's warrior. both are popular choices for momfs.

I have considered riding it out just for the chuckles that ensue from Type: dragon. Warshaper I like, though it doesn't increase those sweet wildshaping HD, and since it's in a book that has a PrC acknowledging classes advancing your 'wildshaper levels' I doubt I can make a case for having it counted. Meaning, I may wanna get 10-12 wilshaping dice before any warshaper levels. Nature's warrior is a great time from the looks, I like things that layer buffs on all my forms... even when I shape into myself.


when i was building my MoMF, i wanted to play Planar Shepard, but my GM shot that down w/ the reasoning that how would you ever get to the elemental plane in the first place, sad day for me.

I'm building mine w/ a split on the ranks of Warshaper, which could be fun for a monk variation to use also

here's my thread w/ lots of links on all that:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503621-3-5-Druid-advancement-questions

To be frank, I'm not sure if I'd get shot down or not, I could give it a whirl. If I did though, are there no other planes worth playing with for PS? I'll give this thread a read, so if the answer to that question is already in there, no need to feed me the answer I guess :smallbiggrin:

[Extra Anchovies]

Nope. Or, probably not. The question of what ability type casting is is somewhat open in the general case, so unlabeled casting isn't all that interesting. The MM V monstrous humanoids are useful because their casting is in the form of an Ex special quality, and you eventually get those with MoMF.

The SRD mentions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) "natural abilities" as a category containing any ability which isn't tagged as extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural. It's not in the DMG special abilities appendix; does anyone happen to know what source the SRD is drawing from on this?

[supersonic29]

The SRD mentions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) "natural abilities" as a category containing any ability which isn't tagged as extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural. It's not in the DMG special abilities appendix; does anyone happen to know what source the SRD is drawing from on this?

That's.. a really good question, I can't recall ever reading the term "natural abilities." Is this maybe the categorical term for natural weapons/armor? Maybe it's brought up or explained there?

[Venger]

The SRD mentions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) "natural abilities" as a category containing any ability which isn't tagged as extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural. It's not in the DMG special abilities appendix; does anyone happen to know what source the SRD is drawing from on this?


That's.. a really good question, I can't recall ever reading the term "natural abilities." Is this maybe the categorical term for natural weapons/armor? Maybe it's brought up or explained there?

"natural abilities" is never defined with any clarity in the rules. about as much as can be said about it is that it refers to abilities that are not ex, su, or sp.

it's normally used to refer to the inherent spellcasting ability of mm2/ff monsters such as the ethergaunts since it is not tagged as any of these things.

[supersonic29]

On the note of having to reshuffle my first level, I'd ask you all's opinion on Wild Monk. I'd lose my combat expertise bonus feat, but I'd gain 1 more HD of a wildshaping class. I may or may not be allowed to swap variants, but I could try :smallwink:

[Gullintanni]

The SRD mentions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) "natural abilities" as a category containing any ability which isn't tagged as extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural. It's not in the DMG special abilities appendix; does anyone happen to know what source the SRD is drawing from on this?

Natural Abilities are defined in the Player's Handbook, and are described there as any ability that does not come explicitly tagged as Extraordinary, Supernatural or Spell-Like.

There is a rules dysfunction here though - Monster Manual 1 is the primary source for Ex, Su and Sp abilities, and says that all Special Attacks or Special Qualities fall under one of those three headings.

"Spells" always falls under the Special Attack heading for monsters, so it must be, according to MM1, either Ex, Su or Sp. But MM1 fails to label "Spells" and since it is not the primary source on Natural Abilities, then "Spells" exist in the Player's Handbook as Natural Abilities and in the Monster Manual as something that must be one of the other three ability types.

My ruling has always been that specific trumps general, and because extrapolating from the Monster Manual produces an ambiguous outcome (Spells must be ex, su or sp) and the PHB produces a specific outcome (Spellcasting is a Natural Ability because it is unlabelled), the PHB definition wins out by virtue of producing the most specific outcome.

There are other interpretations though.

[supersonic29]

Remembered a rules question that came up last: if I gain rage as a racial (ex) special attack (which MM1 decided it was I guess), fly into a rage while in said form, and then wildshape, does the current rage end when I lose the ability or do I just lose the ability to trigger it again? I have a feeling the answer is the less fortunate, but I wanted to know if there is any citation.