Blaster Build Challenge

[EldritchWeaver]

Some background: For a campaign I joined, I've created an optimized character with SoP rules, who managed to wipe out two trolls in two rounds by himself, while also preventing them from being able to attack. Now my character has come under criticism of being too strong, which isn't surprising as the party seems to be relatively unoptimized and unaccustomed to having artillery in the group. So as part of my defense I'd like to point to some builds which can achieve similar results.

And that's where you come in: I'm not that familiar with the core magic rules to build something like that. So I'd appreciate if you could step in, fulfilling the following conditions replicating the combat:



Blasting magic is preferred.
The character is level 9 and has appropriate WBL.
Full caster builds are preferred, as this comes closest to my character.
Only Paizo allowed.
The trolls are standard PF trolls and stand near enough together that area effects catch them.
The trolls can reach with a move action the blaster.
Assume average damage by troll, due to my optimization/luck of dice the blaster gets +10 above average if needed.
Trolls fail saving throws automatically.
No buffing before the fight.
The fight has one surprise round for the blaster, then trolls get their round and then the blaster again.
Preferably the surprise round leaves the trolls immobilized or the very least ensures that you survive to live to round 2.
There is no round 3.


I'm looking forward to your suggestions!

[khadgar567]

just out of curiosity whats the build that managed to f group of trolls in single turn or multiple turns

[DirePorkChop]

Druid can get this easy by 9th.

Flamestrike with Empower spell + Earthspell= Dead Trolls.

A beguiler can crank the DC for his next Charm Monster spell so high that the Trolls don't have a hope to beat it, and then use them as trap finding instruments/ cannon fodder.

Orb spells seriously come online at 5th. Fire/ Acid would both wreck a troll.

Don't get me started on Non-casters.

[CasualViking]

Trolls have touch AC 11 and 63 hp.

Easy way: A lesser dazing metamagic rod is 14k, within your means. Fireball, DC "**** you", and they're dazed for 3 rounds.

Hard way:
Crossblooded (Orc/x dragon) Sorcerer 9.
Feats: 1. spell focus evocation, 3. Quicken spell 5. Spell Specialization, 7. spontaneous metafocus
Level 7 bonus feat: Bloodline mutation (blood havoc)
Traits: magical lineage + wayang spellhunter

quickened scorching ray, 3 rays of 4d6+12 each, average damage 78. Standard action scorching ray. Both trolls are dead in the surpise round, using a 4th level and 2nd level spell slot. Using about 50g worth of power components, you should just about be able to drop a troll even if only two rays hit.

Note: Using sorcerer just to make this harder for ourself. If you're a wizard, the situation is that they're non-flying melee brutes, and you have Overland Flight; unless they surprise you in their troll closet, they don't even get to attempt to make attacks against you.

[AnonymousPepper]

Druid can get this easy by 9th.

Flamestrike with Empower spell + Earthspell= Dead Trolls.

A beguiler can crank the DC for his next Charm Monster spell so high that the Trolls don't have a hope to beat it, and then use them as trap finding instruments/ cannon fodder.

Orb spells seriously come online at 5th. Fire/ Acid would both wreck a troll.

Don't get me started on Non-casters.

That's 3rd Ed, the thread is tagged Pathfinder.

[Mehangel]

I could probably stat out the entire build, but...

A level 9 wizard with the Dazing Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/dazing-spell-metamagic) metamagic feat, a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rods/metamagic-rods/metamagic-maximize) [14,000gp] (which is affordable within the cost range of a level 9 character), and the spells Scorching Ray and Fireball.

Surprise Round: Use metamagic rod and cast Dazing Scorching Ray (Both Trolls take 24 Fire damage and are dazed for 2 rounds) [Troll’s hit points reduced from 63 to 39]

Round 2: Use metamagic rod and cast Fireball (Both Trolls take 54 Fire damage) [Troll’s hit points are reduced from 39 to -15]

[EldritchWeaver]

just out of curiosity whats the build that managed to f group of trolls in single turn or multiple turns

I've created an Incanter 9 with Destruction Sphere Specialization and the Admixture Adept option. I also took Orb Expert, granting +2 to CL when using Explosive Orb, and a Staff of Destruction +2. In the surprise round I employed a Crystal Blast/Fire Blast admixture, spending both an admixture point and one spell point for full damage. That both already damaged the trolls as well entangled them. In the second round I used Energy Sphere with Fire Blast (spending 2 SP), destroying with the casting the first troll and with the move action the second one. In hindsight, I can't quite remember if the damage of the crystallized fireball was applied correctly by half and half, but to kill a troll the overall damage needs to be higher than its hp and that attack needs to be done with fire or acid. That was done with pure fire anyway.

Otherwise, thanks for the ideas so far. (But you can still post more, if you want.) That should help me with my argument that it's not a problem with SoP per se. :smallsmile:


Note: Using sorcerer just to make this harder for ourself. If you're a wizard, the situation is that they're non-flying melee brutes, and you have Overland Flight; unless they surprise you in their troll closet, they don't even get to attempt to make attacks against you.

True, but running into a troll was not expected by my character, so no flying (which he could have done thanks to having the sphere Telekinesis as well).

[CasualViking]

True, but running into a troll was not expected by my character, so no flying (which he could have done thanks to having the sphere Telekinesis as well).

"Being able to cast fly" and "just straight up flying, for 9 hours, or 18" are, IME, vastly different in practice.

[khadgar567]

I've created an Incanter 9 with Destruction Sphere Specialization and the Admixture Adept option. I also took Orb Expert, granting +2 to CL when using Explosive Orb, and a Staff of Destruction +2. In the surprise round I employed a Crystal Blast/Fire Blast admixture, spending both an admixture point and one spell point for full damage. That both already damaged the trolls as well entangled them. In the second round I used Energy Sphere with Fire Blast (spending 2 SP), destroying with the casting the first troll and with the move action the second one. In hindsight, I can't quite remember if the damage of the crystallized fireball was applied correctly by half and half, but to kill a troll the overall damage needs to be higher than its hp and that attack needs to be done with fire or acid. That was done with pure fire anyway.

thanks for build

[Slider Eclipse]

Kineticist 9. with a Kineticist Diadam will be doing 6d6+1/2 Con Mod Fire damage to 30ft worth of Trolls FOR FREE. this is enough on Average to 2 shot the Trolls though we can do better. as the range on this Blast is 120ft you can stay far enough away from the trolls to gather power for 1 round allowing you to ether double this to 11d6+1/2 CON for free. (Enough to one shot the trolls with minimal luck) or apply Maximize to ensure that you're dealing straight 36+1/2CON Fire to them for free. OR if you really want to make sure they're dead you could spend 2 Burn to deal 66+1/2CON Fire Damage enough to flat out one shot the entire group.

note that all these calculations are not taking the Con Mod into account or the fact that you'll likely also have the bonus from Elemental Overflow adding an additional 9 damage to the attack (plus the bonus gained from increasing your CON mod with its effects) Nor are they taking into account the OTHER things Kineticists could do such as have at will flight or simply making a wall of Fire between you and the trolls.

[Endarire]

This is a build copy-pasted from Paizo's boards here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p6kv?Blaster-Wizards-Sorcerers), posted by "Dubious by Name."

For a magical blaster, I recommend this:

Human Wizard (Evocation [Admixture]) with a single level in Tattooed Crossblooded Sorcerer [Draconic [White]/Orc]

Level 1 feats are:
Spell Focus ([Evocation]—Replacing Scribe Scroll)
Verisian Tattoo ([Evocation] — Tattooed Sorcerer Feat)
Arcane Bond (Wizard starting Feat and Tattooed Sorcerer ability, but they stack)
Spell Specialization ([Burning Hands]—Level 1 Feat)
Alertness (Familiar)

I went with a human for an extra feat and took Irrisian Ice Mage so my damage would be a D4+2 or a D6+2 higher for appropriate spells.

At level 1 with Burning Hands you do 4D4+9 damage, and your damage only becomes better, especially if you start working with Intensify Spell and the Traits Magical Lineage and Spellhunter.

Although you lose a level of spell progression, at character level 6, you'll get access to Fireballs that will be doing 8D6+20 (you've changed Fireball to your Spell Specialization spell at this point). And more if you take Feats like Irrisian Ice Mage and Bloat Mage.

[Zanos]

If you're the only optimized character in a group of unoptimized characters, you should be looking at toning it down rather than showing off all the terrible things you could have done. You don't drop bombs on people with spears, then ask them to thank you for not using nukes.

It doesn't take much, though.The easiest way is just crossblooded sorcerer. Cast empowered fireball with one of the mm reducer traits. (9d6+19)*1.5 damage. Averages 76 damage. Trolls are dead.

[EldritchWeaver]

Interesting options so far! :smallsmile:


If you're the only optimized character in a group of unoptimized characters, you should be looking at toning it down rather than showing off all the terrible things you could have done. You don't drop bombs on people with spears, then ask them to thank you for not using nukes.

This is more complicated. And off-topic, too. But I'll send you a PM, explaining the situation and motivation in more depth.

[pilvento]

I am currently playing a SoP oracle for the way of the wicked adventure path.

We are lvl 12 now and with my staff, feats traits and etc y have a CL of 15 for fire spells. I also have the nature sphere and the fan the flame feat so when an enemy catches on fire he burns for 5d6 instead of 1d6 and with the burning magic revelation from oracle i also add my CL to the burning damage.

So with fireblast and other talents and feats and a single standard action I can deal 15d6+15 + 5d6+15 if they catch on fire.

That costs me 1 spellpoint, add another one to make it an AOE, another to ignore energy resistance equal to twice my CL, and then add a move action to ignore spell resistance using the imbue with nature feat.

So basically all my feats and 1/2 of my talents at lvl 12 are put into this 90 average damage reflex half to everything in sight, and thats my turn, cant even move. Im spending 3 spellpoints a turn and by this lvl I have arround 30, so i can pull this trick 10 times a day. But I also expend arround 12 a day to give protection and fate buffs on all the party.

From lvl 9+ all characters gain power exponentialy, so all your dm has to do is pump his encounters. It could have been the same with a normal spellcaster or even a mid-op barbarian. It aint hard to get those trolls in 1 to 2 rounds with a any lvl 9 class from core parthfinder.

[Firebug]

Is this ... supposed to be hard?

Like, a level 6 wizard with an empower rod (or both metamagic reducer for +2), and no other tricks, does this in 2 rounds with 2 empowered fireballs.
Or level 5, if he has Varisian Tattoo or some other +1 CL.

Blaster's surprise round: Empowered Fireball: 6d6 (21 damage) empowered for 31.5. That is half of each of their HP pools, since we are assuming they auto-fail saves.
Troll 1's round: move, bite for 1d8+5 (9.5 damage)
Troll 1's round: move, bite for 1d8+5 (9.5 damage)
Blaster's regular round: 5' step out of reach (or just make the concentration check of DC 21, CL 6, +4 for stat, +4 combat casting, need a 6), Empowered Fireball for another 31.5 damage. Oh, throw in a bit of black powder (10 gp/each) to make sure they are dead and not just staggered.

A crossblooded blood havok sorcerer could probably do it at level 6 or so without even using metamagic, traits, and only using two 2nd level spells!
Burning Arc at CL 7 (Varisian Tattoo, Evocation) for 45.5 damage to the primary and 22.75 to the secondary, switch primary/secondary for the second round. Each troll just took 68.25 damage. And some other target also took 22.75 twice.

Or, you know, just Dazing Acid Pit for lulz.

[EldritchWeaver]

From lvl 9+ all characters gain power exponentialy, so all your dm has to do is pump his encounters. It could have been the same with a normal spellcaster or even a mid-op barbarian. It aint hard to get those trolls in 1 to 2 rounds with a any lvl 9 class from core parthfinder.

It's Rise of the Runelords. Not sure if it easy to up the challenge.


Is this ... supposed to be hard?

Apparently it isn't. At least it gives me a hint of power level of the group (probably at the bottom of barrel, considering one player said the fight like this were challenging without my character).

[stack]

Two standard trolls are normally hard for a level 9 party? I...i don't even know how to optimize that poorly. In a kingmaker game I was in we were tearing through a lot more trolls than that at level 6.

Nice to see my destruction material put to good use.:smallsmile:

[Firebug]

Update to my submission:

If we tweak the starting parameters a bit (the starting distance) the aforementioned Crossblooded Blood Havok Sorcerer can handle these trolls at level 3. Assuming the Sorcerer has some Con to survive the initial hits.

Human: Spell Focus (Evocation)
1st: Spell Specialization (Burning Hands)
3rd: Empower Spell
Both the Regional and Magic Trait to reduce metamagic costs on Burning Hands.

Start 15' away from the Trolls
Surprise round: Non-Empowered Burning Hands as a Standard action for 27.5 Damage.
Trolls: move action to move, standard action to bite: 9.5 damage each
Sorcerer: 5' out of reach (or concentration check) Full-Round Action Empowered Burning Hands for another 41.25 damage. Overkills the Trolls by 5.75
Trolls: Unconscious.

[EldritchWeaver]

Two standard trolls are normally hard for a level 9 party? I...i don't even know how to optimize that poorly. In a kingmaker game I was in we were tearing through a lot more trolls than that at level 6.

Nice to see my destruction material put to good use.:smallsmile:

Actually, that comment referred to an encounter with 4 trolls. The party has nominally 6 members, but two weren't present and the fourth didn't do anything, while I entangled all trolls, damaged 3 with a fireball (excluded one troll, because we wanted that one alive; also killed off two normal trolls) and helped fight the commander troll along with the monk and the gunslinger in round 3+. Regarding how to optimize so badly: You just don't. One player told me he hates making characters. So he barely spends time on planning things. I'm not sure yet if the others are better in that regard.

Also, I like your destruction stuff. Makes my character capable of killing everything. If that only wouldn't be a problem.:smallamused:

[pilvento]

It's Rise of the Runelords. Not sure if it easy to up the challenge.

Well you also said you are a group of 6, so I hope that at least he is using 50% more mobs or everything he throws at you has the advanced template.

But I think people here has given you lots of material to show to your DM. Also since its rise of the runelords you are playing, im 99% sure there is a handbook form DMs that will help him tweak every encounter as needed.

[stack]

A standard troll is only CR5. At level 9 they are just ablative meat for whatever boss they are standing in front of. I have a hard time imagining hem being an issue for any level 9 party that wasn't actively gimping themselves, especially with a surprise round. A normal magus, wizard, or sorcerer could hose the encounter just by casting web and letting everyone gang up on whichever one exposed itself first. Which is exactly what happened the time I played through a similar situation at a lower level.