Nymph's kiss at first level

[WarKitty]

I asked this in simple questions and got two different answers, so I figured I'd submit it to the forum at large to see what people's reasoning is.

I'm taking the Nymph's Kiss feat at level one. In what order do feats and skills work here? Is the skill point provided by the feat first, and then multiplied by four? Or do I take my regular skills and then get the extra skill point, granting me only 1 extra skill point at first level?

[DarkSoul]

It'll be up to your DM. Going by the leveling up "process" in the PHB you spend skill points before you choose feats, which would mean you get one, but I've let players have 4 in the past and it wasn't a problem.

[Venger]

I asked this in simple questions and got two different answers, so I figured I'd submit it to the forum at large to see what people's reasoning is.

I'm taking the Nymph's Kiss feat at level one. In what order do feats and skills work here? Is the skill point provided by the feat first, and then multiplied by four? Or do I take my regular skills and then get the extra skill point, granting me only 1 extra skill point at first level?

feats and skills work in the same order they always do:

When you're giving your character a new level, you allocate skills before you distribute feats. Feats are the last thing you get when you're leveling up. This applies at first level as well. That's why, for example, if you take "open-minded" at level 1, it still only gives 5 extra skill points, not 20.

Nymph's kiss would consequently give you one extra point at first, not 4. you add it on after everything else, and cannot break the cap.

rules for the order you apply stuff in are on p58 of the PHB.

[Palanan]

I've always understood it as the second option, as a single extra skill point added after everything else.

The wording doesn't mention multiplying, just a straight addition starting with the level you take the feat--whichever level that may be. In my games it's always one additional skill point per level.

[Troacctid]

It doesn't say the extra skill point is multiplied at 1st level, and there's no general rule that multiplies all skill points gained at 1st level. (As Venger pointed out, that would make the Open Minded feat quite a bit more powerful than intended.) So you only get one.

I've heard it argued that you should actually gain zero, because feats are selected after skill points are gained, so by the time you take the feat, it's too late to apply its benefit to the current level. But that's a dysfunction, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[DarkSoul]

I've heard it argued that you should actually gain zero, because feats are selected after skill points are gained, so by the time you take the feat, it's too late to apply its benefit to the current level. But that's a dysfunction, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.Nymph's Kiss actually has the specific exception written into the feat. It says "Starting with the level when you take this feat, you gain 1 extra skill point per level." So the argument that you get 0 doesn't hold up at all and you get one, even if it's "retroactive".

[Crake]

Personally I think nymph's kiss, as written is just really messy for keeping track of skills and skillpoints, so I've always houseruled it to be retroactive back to level 1, with 4x at first level, but then I also retroactively give extra skillpoints from permanent int gain as well.

[weckar]

I never quite got the skills before feats argument. I mean, of course this means you can use skills of this level to qualify for a feat this level, but you can only slide the bread one way anyway - right?

So either you only get 1x skill points from Nymph's kiss, or you delay taking feats with skill requirements by 1 level for your whole career. Your choice.

[Mordaedil]

Skills before feats is an argument for meeting requirements for feats and the like.

I don't disagree with it for that purpose, but I also say that the benefits of a feat of that level also comes into play as if before you picked skills, but not class.

This has a lot more to do with how I fill in my character sheet than anything else though.

[lightningcat]

Personally I think nymph's kiss, as written is just really messy for keeping track of skills and skillpoints, so I've always houseruled it to be retroactive back to level 1, with 4x at first level, but then I also retroactively give extra skillpoints from permanent int gain as well.

This is what my group does as well. It might make it slightly more powerful, but not breaky.

[WarKitty]

This is what my group does as well. It might make it slightly more powerful, but not breaky.

Yeah, the breaky part is the other half of the feat stacked onto a bard with maxed social skills. :smalltongue:

[TheifofZ]

Yeah, the breaky part is the other half of the feat stacked onto a diplomancer with maxed social skills. :smalltongue:
FTFY.
Remember that certain other classes can also cheese the heck out of a convenient bonus to a social roll too.

[Jack_Simth]

FTFY.
Remember that certain other classes can also cheese the heck out of a convenient bonus to a social roll too.
Yes... with a bit of book delving and some work, it's quite possible to be turning Hostile to Friendly during a rushed diplomacy check on a roll of 1 by about level 3....

[Quertus]

Personally I think nymph's kiss, as written is just really messy for keeping track of skills and skillpoints, so I've always houseruled it to be retroactive back to level 1, with 4x at first level, but then I also retroactively give extra skillpoints from permanent int gain as well.

Monsters get retroactive skill points when they level up / age / gain HD and get an int increase, so everyone else should, too. Otherwise, we're not all playing the same game.

[Rijan_Sai]

Monsters get retroactive skill points when they level up / age / gain HD and get an int increase, so everyone else should, too. Otherwise, we're not all playing the same game.

Out of curiosity, where are you getting that information? I didn't see it in the "Improving Monsters" section of my MM.

[WarKitty]

Yes... with a bit of book delving and some work, it's quite possible to be turning Hostile to Friendly during a rushed diplomacy check on a roll of 1 by about level 3....

I feel like that would be justification for the DM to set my character on fire.

[Zanos]

Personally I think nymph's kiss, as written is just really messy for keeping track of skills and skillpoints, so I've always houseruled it to be retroactive back to level 1, with 4x at first level, but then I also retroactively give extra skillpoints from permanent int gain as well.
Also how I handle skillpoints, but I recognized they're houserules in both cases.


I never quite got the skills before feats argument.
I don't think it's really an argument; the books are pretty clear about order of application when you level.

[Quertus]

Out of curiosity, where are you getting that information? I didn't see it in the "Improving Monsters" section of my MM.

A) savage species monster progressions, to let players level up as a monster from level 1, fail to take changing int into consideration, to let pc monsters = MM monsters.
B) the sample dragons in the MM pretty clearly have skill points based off their current int, not their int add of when they acquired the HD. I take that back - the ones I just tested don't add up at all, so... either I can't count, or this isn't as clear as I remember it.
C) how many skill points do you give ancient dragons?