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OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-11, 02:15 PM
What would be the CR adjustment of a creature infused with a small part of a diety?

psychoticbarber
2007-07-11, 02:18 PM
It would really depend on what powers and things the creature was granted by this small piece of deity.

Unless of course he was infused with a small piece of Mr. Atkins. But that would just be creepy.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-11, 02:20 PM
It would be able to sprout limbs at will and fly.

psychoticbarber
2007-07-11, 02:22 PM
It would be able to sprout limbs at will and fly.

Damn, somebody help me out. That's not one of the abilities I know off-hand, and I'm not in a position to look it up right now.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-11, 02:25 PM
The CR adjustment can't be over 75, as I need to fit in sorcerer levels and the lich template to make a CR of 110.

(My group reads OOTS, so I am including the reference for them)

psychoticbarber
2007-07-11, 02:27 PM
The CR adjustment can't be over 75, as I need to fit in sorcerer levels and the lich template to make a CR of 110.

Okay, I find it unlikely that it will be that high. Sprouting limbs: Is that for the purpose of flight (eg, it sprouts wings and flies away), or is it just sprouting limbs in general?

Also, why don't you just houserule that it can do that and not worry so much about the CR?

MrNexx
2007-07-11, 02:28 PM
It would be able to sprout limbs at will and fly.

So, essentially, it has a single, at-will, indefinite duration spell-like ability, equal to a 1st level spell (a limited use of Alter Self), or maybe a 2nd level spell (flight equivalent to the Fly spell, but with the limitation of wingspan).

I'd say a +1 LA, unless stuck on a race that's sub-par.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-11, 02:29 PM
I need the CR to be at a certain level to be the final enemy of a grueling, 100-level campaign. I am planning ahead so that it is a sufficient challenge.

The limbs are like the reference it is based off of, powerful arms that stab stuff. These aren't just arms, they are the arms of a really powerful diety. Our lich friend will also gain extra attack bonus, damage, and HD.

psychoticbarber
2007-07-11, 02:30 PM
I need the CR to be at a certain level to be the final enemy of a grueling, 100-level campaign. I am planning ahead so that it is a sufficient challenge.

The limbs are like the reference it is based off of, powerful arms that stab stuff.

100 levels? Now, I don't know anything about your campaign or play styles, but the only campaigns I've seen get past 5th level (that I've been in) are the ones that I have started at 9.

100 is a lot of levels.

PsyBlade
2007-07-11, 02:33 PM
Sorry to be a spelling nazi, but:

It is spelled DEITY not DIETY.

You are looking for a god [deity], not an eating style [diet], right?

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-11, 02:33 PM
My campaigns levelling system will be different, where epic-level XP wil be generated like regular XP.

Example:

A level 15 and level 35 have similar XP gains. However, the level 35 will need to get the XP by fighting stronger enemies. The even stronger level 55 has the same idea around it.

@Psyblade. Sorry about the spelling mistake. Yes, I am looking for a god-infused creature, not diet plans affecting CR.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-11, 02:35 PM
Also, the chars pretty much don't get new abilities after level 20, and epic starts to break down rather quickly, not to mention in 80 levels. Are you quite sure about this? Or are you perhaps basing it upon old-style CRPGs (a la Might & Magic) or MMORPGS (a la WOW) that have way more levels than tabletop games?

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-11, 02:38 PM
I have some tricks up my sleeves. Such as the special qualities in the DMG. There will also be interesting characters: coming, going (or, in one type, staying), and possibly being zombified before the campaign ends. Soon, it will become almost storylike, captivating the players and compelling them to continue. Oh, and the characters, once the campaign ends, will bcome demigods.

psychoticbarber
2007-07-11, 02:43 PM
I have some tricks up my sleeves. Such as the special qualities in the DMG. There will also be interesting characters: coming, going (or, in one type, staying), and possibly being zombified before the campaign ends. Soon, it will become almost storylike, captivating the players and compelling them to continue. Oh, and the characters, once the campaign ends, will bcome demigods.

My campaigns are rather storylike too, and usually begin at level 9 and end before the PCs hit level 15. You can have an epic story without 100 levels. That being said, it is your campaign, and I will try to help you rather than bring you down.

Edit: If you're curious what I'm up to right now, check my blog here (http://cityofkayru.blogspot.com).

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-11, 02:46 PM
This will be a rather long story, like the Discworld series. So, I will give one more peice of advice: The campaign takes place in an alternate version of the OOTS world, many eons after the comic's events, so check the Order of the Scribble strips for what the diety's power is.

Swooper
2007-07-11, 02:51 PM
100 levels? Now, I don't know anything about your campaign or play styles, but the only campaigns I've seen get past 5th level (that I've been in) are the ones that I have started at 9.

100 is a lot of levels.
Really? Huh, I've played one from 1-22, one from 1-27 (and hasn't ended, although we don't play it much anymore and won't for the next few years, so I guess it can be considered dead-ish) and a current one that's reached level 12. And an AD&D campaign back in the day, that went up to 9th level before 3rd Edition came out - and tell you what, reaching 9th level in AD&D takes EFFORT.

Although anyone can plainly see that 100 levels IS indeed a lot.

NullAshton
2007-07-11, 02:57 PM
A simple way is to just apply the paragon template. The paragon template makes the creature 'perfect' or as close to perfect as possible, with numerous bonuses.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-11, 03:00 PM
The half celestial or half fiend templates are +2 CR and +4 ECL they provide flight with wings and spell like abilities and ability enhancement and other specials. So I'd go with +1 CR.

jamroar
2007-07-11, 03:17 PM
What would be the CR adjustment of a creature infused with a small part of a diety?

That would depend on which deity, and how small a part.

A modified version of the Aleax (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) template would probably be a suitable model, at base creature +3.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-11, 03:43 PM
I have some ideas for what this giant OOTS referance will be like:

Insane attack and damage bonuses when using the "Snarl Arms", as I call them, about +70 to BAB and the arms deal 4d20s of damage. (Remember, he will be fought by level 100 characters)

High boosts to all ability scores, all at least over 30

Will gain an immense damage reduction: Damage reduction 30, to be precise

A great AC and SR, about 60 AC and 30 SR (Remember, this is a furious deity produced by a dispute of biblical purportions, it will obviously give the one who absorbed its essence a lot of power)

Uses levitation that cannot be dispelled.

Medium sized

For grappling purposes, arms are treated as colossal sized.

FLies perfectly when levitating.

Remember, this is an alternate-universe Snarl we are talking about here. I think that his essence will give this character more power than just +3 to CR.

Callix
2007-07-11, 04:26 PM
Ah, but that's not the template. The abilities themselves aren't that powerful. Take a look at Deities and Demigods for some ideas on powers of proxies and quasi-deities. Also, look at the Hecatonchieres (ELH). It needs updating, but the booklet's out, so it's technically 3.5. It has a lot of arms, and a base CR of 57, which would be an absolute walkover for your party. Also, look at the homebrew competition this month for a few more epic creations, usually about CR 30. See how scary CR 30 is?

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-11, 04:42 PM
Could you give me the stats for that thing? All I need to do is add the intended class levels in order to make my BBEG.

brian c
2007-07-11, 04:48 PM
Oh, and the characters, once the campaign ends, will bcome demigods.

Um... level 100 demigods... The default stats for actual gods in D&D drop them at level 40. At level 100, this game is going to be ridiculous. I know you want it to be Epic and powerful, but maybe scale back a little. This kind of campaign definitely could be done stopping around level 20 like normal, but if you insist on going higher than that I really wouldn't recommend anything above 40 or 50. At that point the game is almost still manageable.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-11, 04:49 PM
No offence, but please do not keep talking about my campaigns ending level. All I need help with now is finding this Hecatonchieres thing so I can finish my BBEG. I don't have the ELH, and I don't want to buy a 3.0 book for the sake of one monster.

Wolfbite
2007-07-11, 05:04 PM
Wow...that's big dreams and crazy goals...100 levels...sounds like Final Fantasy style to me! But seriously, If you are creating your monster to be CR 100 and you are using the standard rules for making monsters more or less... The wings, and flying at will, even as part of a god, demi god, won't be a HUGE CR booster. You are going to want to pull those 70 points of CR you are needing from augmented hit dice and what not... But flying alone would only be +1 or 2, depending on how well it can fly...now if your wings are coated with five different effect poisons, disease, can shoot out magical +10 Vorpal feathers in a 100ft circle, that do a lot of damage, cause blindness, and a nigh avoidable knock down, not to mention all feathers that don't hit a target explode into smaller shrapnel styled damage increasing AOE...those would be some +CR wings!

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-11, 07:54 PM
Nope, no wings. Just levitation. However, I have some bonuses planned. . .

Insane attack and damage bonuses when using the "Snarl Arms", as I call them, about +70 to BAB and the arms deal 5d20s of damage. (Remember, he will be fought by level 100 characters)

High boosts to all ability scores, all at least over 30

Will gain an immense damage reduction: Damage reduction 30, to be precise

A great AC and SR, about 120 AC and 110 SR (Remember, this is a furious deity produced by a dispute of biblical purportions, it will obviously give the one who absorbed its essence a lot of power)

Uses levitation that cannot be dispelled.

Medium sized

For grappling purposes, arms are treated as colossal sized.

FLies perfectly when levitating.

Arms share the paralyzing touch of the lich.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-11, 08:20 PM
I just poked through D&DG last couple days, and sounds like you want Alter Shape+Alter Size>Alter Form. Or maybe just the Alter Shape. All Salient Divine Abilities. At the minimum, you could make it a Demigod(0 Divine Ranks. Treat the SDAs as "Bonus Feats" granted by the base Deity). Immortal(in so far as nothing other than HP damage can kill it), immune to death from massive damage, immune to ability damage/drain, etc.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-11, 08:27 PM
Yes, that is good.

brian c
2007-07-11, 09:48 PM
No offence, but please do not keep talking about my campaigns ending level. All I need help with now is finding this Hecatonchieres thing so I can finish my BBEG. I don't have the ELH, and I don't want to buy a 3.0 book for the sake of one monster.

I didn't mean to criticize, like I said if that's what you want then go ahead and do it. You asked for advice however, and given the parameters I'm just letting you know that it's going to hard to get good advice, simply because it's a very tricky subject, super-epic level CR.

Firefingers
2007-07-11, 11:17 PM
Hecatoncheires
Size/Type: Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 52d8+632 (1048 hp)
Initiative: +10 (+2 Dex, +8 Superior Initiative)
Speed: 100 ft.
Armor Class: 70 (-2 size, +30 natural, +20 insight, +12 armor [+5 half plate])
Base Attack/Grapple: +52/+80
Attack: Greatsword +73 melee (2d6+20/17-20); or boulder +55 ranged (2d8+20/19-20)
Full Attack: 100 greatswords +73 melee (2d6+20/17-20); or 100 boulders +55 ranged (2d8+20/19-20)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Superior multiweapon fighting, spell-like abilities, summon hecatoncheires
Special Qualities: Abomination traits, electricity immunity, regeneration 40, fast healing 50, SR 70, DR 20/good and epic and cold iron
Saves: Fort +39, Ref +30, Will +27
Abilities: Str 50, Dex 15, Con 32, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 24
Skills: Climb +75, Diplomacy +13, Hide -12, Intimidate +40, Jump +89, Knowledge (history) +33, Listen +104, Search +105, Sense Motive +49, Spot +104, Survival +54
Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (greatsword), Improved Critical (boulder), Improved Initiative, Multidexterity, Multiweapon Fighting, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Focus (boulder)
Epic Feats: Epic Toughness (×2), Epic Weapon Focus (greatsword), Epic Weapon Focus (boulder), Multiweapon Rend
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 57
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 53-58 HD (Huge); 59-70 HD (Gargantuan); 71-140 HD (Colossal)

A hecatoncheires’ natural weapons are treated as epic, evil, and chaotic-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Combat
Superior Multiweapon Fighting (Ex)
A hecatoncheires fights with a greatsword or a boulder in each hand. The hecatoncheires does not suffer an attack or damage penalty for attacking with one hundred weapons. However, the press of limbs prevents the creature from making iterative attacks with any of its arms, nor can it make more than ten attacks against a Small or smaller creature, fifteen attacks against a Medium-size creature, or twenty attacks against a Large creature in the same action (it can make all its attacks against a Huge or larger creature in one action).

Skills
A hecatoncheires’ fifty heads give it a +50 racial bonus on Listen, Spot, and Search checks.

Spell-Like Abilities
At will— greater magic weapon, fly, shield. Caster level 50th; save DC 17 + spell level. The DC is Charisma-based.

Summon Hecatoncheires (Sp)
A hecatoncheires can summon one other hecatoncheires once per day, though is loath to do so because then it will be similarly obligated to answer its sibling’s summoning. A summoned hecatoncheires cannot use its summoning power while “summoned.”

Abomination Traits
Immune to polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks; not subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, or death from massive damage; immune to mind-affecting effects; fire resistance 20; cold resistance 20; nondetection; true seeing at will; blindsight 500 ft.; telepathy out to 1,000 ft.

Regeneration (Ex)
Hecatoncheires take normal damage from good weapons or weapons tempered with the blood of a deity.





Those Stats are from the SRD on the creature mentioned CR 57

Edit because I forgot the 2nd section in first copy

johhny-turbo
2007-07-11, 11:45 PM
Have you heard of this thing called the Immortal's Handbook? It's a 3rd party supplement for playing at insane CRs (the higher ones are in the hundreds of thousands)

Kurald Galain
2007-07-12, 02:58 AM
Hecatoncheires
Full Attack: 100 greatswords +73 melee (2d6+20/17-20); or 100 boulders +55 ranged (2d8+20/19-20)


Dude, you are so running out of dice on that one :smallsmile:

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-12, 08:01 AM
Hooray for my online Dice Roller. OK, now I have all of the stats that I need. Now I make some minor adjustments. . .

Hecatoncheires
Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 52d8+632 (1048 hp)
Initiative: +10 (+2 Dex, +8 Superior Initiative)
Speed: 100 ft.
Armor Class: 110 (+78 natural, +20 insight, +12 armor [+5 half plate])
Base Attack/Grapple: +75/+91
Attack: Stabbing Arms +75 melee (2d20+20/15-20); or boulder +55 ranged (2d8+20/19-20)
Full Attack: 100 stabbing arms +75 melee (2d20+20/15-20); or 100 boulders +55 ranged (2d8+20/19-20)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Superior multiweapon fighting, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Abomination traits, electricity immunity, regeneration 40, fast healing 50, SR 120, DR 20/good and epic and cold iron
Saves: Fort +50, Ref +50, Will +50
Abilities: Str 50, Dex 15, Con 32, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 24
Skills: Climb +75, Diplomacy +13, Hide -12, Intimidate +40, Jump +89, Knowledge (history) +33, Listen +104, Search +105, Sense Motive +49, Spot +104, Survival +54
Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (Stabbing Arms), Improved Critical (boulder), Improved Initiative, Multidexterity, Multiweapon Fighting, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus (Stabbing Arms), Weapon Focus (boulder)
Epic Feats: Epic Toughness (×2), Epic Weapon Focus (greatsword), Epic Weapon Focus (boulder), Multiweapon Rend
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 60
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 53-58 HD (Huge); 59-70 HD (Gargantuan); 71-140 HD (Colossal)

Superior Multiweapon Fighting (Ex)
A hecatoncheires fights with a greatsword or a boulder in each hand. The hecatoncheires does not suffer an attack or damage penalty for attacking with one hundred weapons. However, the press of limbs prevents the creature from making iterative attacks with any of its arms, nor can it make more than ten attacks against a Small or smaller creature, fifteen attacks against a Medium-size creature, or twenty attacks against a Large creature in the same action (it can make all its attacks against a Huge or larger creature in one action).

Spell-Like Abilities
At will— greater magic weapon, fly, shield. Caster level 50th; save DC 17 + spell level. The DC is Charisma-based.

Summon Hecatoncheires (Sp)
A hecatoncheires can summon one other hecatoncheires once per day, though is loath to do so because then it will be similarly obligated to answer its sibling’s summoning. A summoned hecatoncheires cannot use its summoning power while “summoned.”

Abomination Traits
Immune to polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks; not subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, or death from massive damage; immune to mind-affecting effects; fire resistance 20; cold resistance 20; nondetection; true seeing at will; blindsight 500 ft.; telepathy out to 1,000 ft.

Regeneration (Ex)
Hecatoncheires take normal damage from good weapons or weapons tempered with the blood of a deity.

Ceres
2007-07-12, 08:10 AM
I do believe the rules of D&D will break at that ridiculous power-level, but then again I can't be completely sure. Please make a thread about how the campaign is moving along when you have DMd a couple of sessions. I'm intrigued :smalltongue:

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-12, 08:14 AM
Don't worry, the story will draw in the players more then those Scion Little Deviants commercials will draw in negative attention from parents. (Family guy-style flashback happens for a couple of seconds)

Dausuul
2007-07-12, 08:45 AM
The D&D ruleset is already shaking and groaning under the power load at level 20. Level 100 is beyond insanity. At that point, trying to calculate CR based on any kind of standard system is a fool's game. If you create your "final boss" now, before the campaign even starts, I guarantee that when the showdown comes, your PCs will either obliterate the boss with the flick of a finger, or be torn apart and scattered to the corners of the multiverse the moment it so much as looks at them.

I suggest waiting until your characters are actually approaching the final boss fight... approximately 2 years from now, assuming you play three times a week and level at the normal rate (1 level per 3.33 sessions). By that point you'll have a better idea of what your PCs are actually capable of, and you can tailor the big boss to match them.

Seriously, dude--if you're going that far into epic, the rules won't help you. You are venturing into territory far, far beyond anything the rules were ever made to deal with. So throw the rules out and just make stuff up as you go.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-12, 12:19 PM
Now I need one more thing: A combined Skeleton and Zombie with 12 heads, 24 arms, and 24 legs. At COlossal Size

Dausuul
2007-07-12, 01:15 PM
Now I need one more thing: A combined Skeleton and Zombie with 12 heads, 24 arms, and 24 legs. At COlossal Size

See previous statement about throwing out the rules... what do you mean by "combined skeleton and zombie," anyway?

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-12, 01:18 PM
Half zombie, half skeleton.

bosssmiley
2007-07-12, 01:19 PM
I have some ideas for what this giant OOTS referance will be like:

Insane attack and damage bonuses when using the "Snarl Arms", as I call them, about +70 to BAB and the arms deal 4d20s of damage. (Remember, he will be fought by level 100 characters)

High boosts to all ability scores, all at least over 30

Will gain an immense damage reduction: Damage reduction 30, to be precise

A great AC and SR, about 60 AC and 30 SR (Remember, this is a furious deity produced by a dispute of biblical purportions, it will obviously give the one who absorbed its essence a lot of power)

Uses levitation that cannot be dispelled.

Medium sized

For grappling purposes, arms are treated as colossal sized.

FLies perfectly when levitating.

Remember, this is an alternate-universe Snarl we are talking about here. I think that his essence will give this character more power than just +3 to CR.

ELH (or d20SRD.org). Take a look at the epic pseudonatural template (ignore the filthy missed-in-editing brokenness of an SR equal to 5xCR though) and at the DvR0 Abomination creature type. The combination of the two should be a good basis for your Snarl-beast. You might also want to look at some of the other ELH Aberration-Outsiders, like the Neh-Thalggu, the Uvaaduum, the Gibbering Orb, etc.

IIRC the DiceFreaks reckoned DvR0 at an LA of about +10.

Krrth
2007-07-12, 01:31 PM
You could always just chuck it all, and just update the old "Bloodstone Pass" series. That was an old 2nd edition mod that CAME with premade lvl 100 characters.....

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-12, 02:08 PM
Nevah! My group made their characters and were very happy with their creations. I am not going to destroy it all for some Premades.

Krrth
2007-07-12, 02:12 PM
Oh, I didn't mean to USE the premades. I meant that since the module came with lvl 100 premades (as a suggestion), you could simply retool the module (or just swipe some of the ideas), and use it in your lvl 100 game. Although, fair warning, if you use it properly, your players have about a 99% chance of death.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-12, 02:17 PM
My game is going from 1-100, not starting at level 100. Oh, and can I please have some help with my composite undead?

Krrth
2007-07-12, 02:22 PM
That's ok, neither is the mod. It was designed as a end point for high level characters. As for the undead....you might want to check out Liber Mortis. THe whole book is about undead. I don't have my copy handy, (nor do I have the epic handbook), but I seem to remember something about an undead earth elemental that had zombies and skeletons combined into it.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-07-12, 02:26 PM
Not an elemental, but a colossal, 24-armed, 24-legged, 12-headed beast that is half skeleton and half zombie.

Quietus
2007-07-12, 02:31 PM
Not an elemental, but a colossal, 24-armed, 24-legged, 12-headed beast that is half skeleton and half zombie.

I can't be bothered, since it's a good chance it'll never actually see the light of day, but I'd suggest using hydras as your base creature, then zombify it, and change the DR to 5/-. Limit it to one action (Ooops, guess all those arms and heads are useless now), and give it Toughness and Improved Initiative, and you're good to go.

Krrth
2007-07-12, 02:32 PM
I think you might have to make that one up yourself. Someone else might prove me wrong, but I'm not familier with anythinig exactly like that. (although, with a bit of homebrewing, you could probably simply template it into existance).

Tiki Snakes
2007-07-12, 04:50 PM
I can't be bothered, since it's a good chance it'll never actually see the light of day, but I'd suggest using hydras as your base creature, then zombify it, and change the DR to 5/-. Limit it to one action (Ooops, guess all those arms and heads are useless now), and give it Toughness and Improved Initiative, and you're good to go.

I'd venture to say, treat each head as a separate creature as far as the undead-ness dropping it to one attack goes. As far as head-related stuff goes, anyway.

Hell, by the time it shows up with your lvl 50+ PC's, it's going to need all the attacks it can get!

Assuming there's more than one or two surviving players by that point, still.

Saph
2007-07-12, 04:57 PM
The D&D ruleset is already shaking and groaning under the power load at level 20. Level 100 is beyond insanity. At that point, trying to calculate CR based on any kind of standard system is a fool's game. If you create your "final boss" now, before the campaign even starts, I guarantee that when the showdown comes, your PCs will either obliterate the boss with the flick of a finger, or be torn apart and scattered to the corners of the multiverse the moment it so much as looks at them.

I suggest waiting until your characters are actually approaching the final boss fight... approximately 2 years from now, assuming you play three times a week and level at the normal rate (1 level per 3.33 sessions). By that point you'll have a better idea of what your PCs are actually capable of, and you can tailor the big boss to match them.

Dausuul speaks the truth.

Seriously, just don't bother, unless it's solely for your own amusement. The chances of your players even reaching Level 100 are close to zero, and the chances of them being at the power level you expect by then are like zero times zero. The D&D rules at level 100 are broken into more bits than Alderaan.

If by some miracle your crazily powerful PCs actually make it to level 100, they'll be able to obliterate any standard CR 100 creature in a heartbeat, so your work will be wasted anyway. Just wait and make the thing as-and-when you need it.

- Saph