Can you delay substitution levels?

[Neowulf]

I'm working on my Barbarian build for an upcoming game & the rules the DM laid down was you don't get penalties for multiclassing if you get to level 10 in your first class before taking levels in others

what I've worked out so far is:
1st lvl Goliath Barbarian+Spirit-lion totem Barbarian
3rd level fangshield barbarian
5th level i get spirit-lion totem's awesome vision that at least lets me see invisibility and get bonuses on spot checks. on the other hand, I get awesome charge
7th level I want to get Raging Vigor (I'd like to get the Roar, but I already substituted the DR)
so the only other thing I'd like to get for my Barbarian is the streetfighter variations from the online extension (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) to cityscape, but from the looks of it you need to start it at 7th level

would I be able to start it at 10th level instead of 7th? 7th just kinda makes crits easier, not as useful to me as instant-healing during battle, but I really want the 10th level right-angle turn during charges. or do I need to start at level 7 substitution and just have to stick with everything?

[Afgncaap5]

By the rules I don't think you can delay substitution levels. However, you might be able to ask your DM if you can swap it since you didn't catch the substitution level in time or, alternatively, ask if you can undergo some training to retrain your existing level 7 features into the features you want.

[Venger]

By the rules I don't think you can delay substitution levels. However, you might be able to ask your DM if you can swap it since you didn't catch the substitution level in time or, alternatively, ask if you can undergo some training to retrain your existing level 7 features into the features you want.

This is correct. If the sub lvl is for barb7, you can only take it as your 7th level of barb.

I think you're actually asking if you can skip levels?

for example, if you want to take the first level of changeling rogue but not the third. this is allowed.

since there is more than one kind of sub level, this can get confusing.

since streetfighter trades away a class feature in exchange for later improvements, you're in effect taking more levels in it later when DR would normally apply.

asking if you can retroactively apply it is probably fine. it's much more useful than your dr.

EDIT: oh I see. what you're asking is if you can take the 10th level benefit of streetfighter without paying the cost at 7, allowing you to trade your DR away for something else instead. the answer is no. you can only trade things out once. after that, you don't have them anymore. you'd need to choose one or the other.

[Neowulf]

I think I didn't ask well enough. sorry, I'm writing this before my coffee

can I take the 10th level substitution on the streetfighter without taking the 7th level one? will I have to take the 7th level one in order to qualify for the 10th level one? I don't really want the 7th level substitution for streetfighter as much as I do fangshield

[Tiri]

I think I didn't ask well enough. sorry, I'm writing this before my coffee

can I take the 10th level substitution on the streetfighter without taking the 7th level one? will I have to take the 7th level one in order to qualify for the 10th level one? I don't really want the 7th level substitution for streetfighter as much as I do fangshield

No substitute level is a prerequisite for another. You should be fine.

[BowStreetRunner]

I think I didn't ask well enough. sorry, I'm writing this before my coffee

can I take the 10th level substitution on the streetfighter without taking the 7th level one? will I have to take the 7th level one in order to qualify for the 10th level one? I don't really want the 7th level substitution for streetfighter as much as I do fangshield

Yes. When taking substitution levels you can take only the ones you want and leave the other ones. In most instances there are three substitution levels available and you can take any one, two, or all three regardless of which others you took.

[Venger]

No substitute level is a prerequisite for another. You should be fine.

This isn't that kind of substitution level, though. Sub levels with multiple statted out levels that trade away different things, such as changeling rogue, are one type.

this is the other type that trades away one thing and offers constant improvement on it later on in the build.

if you trade away your dr at 7 for sub level A, you cannot at the same time trade away your dr at 7 for sub level B, because you don't have it anymore.

healing damage in combat is pretty disappointing, so you'd likely be better off investing in streetfighter if it looks exciting to you.

[Tiri]

Oh, we're talking about the Barbarian Streetfighter ACF. That's not technically a substitution level, and yes, you have to take it at level 7, because it replaces your whole DR progression. You can't select which parts of your DR to replace once you choose it.

[Neowulf]

This isn't that kind of substitution level, though. Sub levels with multiple statted out levels that trade away different things, such as changeling rogue, are one type.

this is the other type that trades away one thing and offers constant improvement on it later on in the build.

if you trade away your dr at 7 for sub level A, you cannot at the same time trade away your dr at 7 for sub level B, because you don't have it anymore.

healing damage in combat is pretty disappointing, so you'd likely be better off investing in streetfighter if it looks exciting to you.
It heals 2x my HD, can be used while raging, and only uses one standard action. This would be great if my party's healer can't get to me in time or If I PrC frenzied berserker and the constant non-lethal damage is taking its toll

but reading it again, I guess it makes sense. It's giving up all DR for all levels
at least I get something that stacks with other crit-helping feats

[Troacctid]

FYI barbarian is the goliath favored class, so you should not take multiclass penalties for it no matter how many levels you have.

[Neowulf]

FYI barbarian is the goliath favored class, so you should not take multiclass penalties for it no matter how many levels you have.

I know. I was thinking about either taking levels in Warblade or Totemist & just keeping with Barbarian to level 10

[Crake]

To clear things up a little bit, streetfighter barbarian isn't a "substitution level" its what's called an "alternate class feature" where you trade certain class features out for others. You have to take them in their entirety, trading out everything it said in exchange for all the benefits it lists. If you've already traded out, or otherwise not gained access to one of the class features you're losing as part of the alternate class feature (or ACF as it is commonly abbreviated to) then you do not qualify for the ACF and cannot take it.