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ski309
2007-07-11, 03:31 PM
I need help. The group I DM is in a mansion, and will eventually come upon a door to a vault with some sort of lock mechanism. For this lock, I'd like to put in a puzzle on the door that the group must figure out to open it. The problem: I can't figure out a good puzzle! I was thinking of putting a magic square on the door that the group would have to figure out, but I'd like other ideas. Does anyone have any ideas, or links to good, appropriate puzzles?

DaMullet
2007-07-11, 03:32 PM
Oh dear, I know just the one.

Have you ever played the Kingdom of Loathing? Near the end of one quest, there's a puzzle to unlock a door. It's wicked.

I'll look for it on the 'tubes and edit this post.


As you approach the door, you notice that someone has scrawled a message on it with a pencil: "BEWARE: One of the guards always tells the truth, one of them always lies, one of them alternates between the two, and one craves the taste of human flesh!" Ominous.

Hesitantly, you push the door open and enter a small room. You find four guards seated at a round table, playing bridge. You grab your weapon and prepare for a fight, but they just look up at you and nod amicably. "Hello," says the guard playing North.

"Er, hi," you say. "Um, don't mind me, I was just passing through."

The guard playing South says, "I suppose you want the combination to the other door, then? I'm getting really tired of people asking about that."

"He's lying," says North.

"No," says East, "you're the one lying."

"Graaaaagh," says West.

"Great," you sigh. "What's the code, then?"

"Well," says South, "the first digit is 3."

"No it isn't," says East. "It's 8."

North shakes his head. "They're both lying -- it's 9."

"The second digit now -- that's 4," says South.

"Graaaaagh," says West.

"It's 1, in fact," says North.

East grumbles, "It's definitely more than that."

"Sorry, I meant to say 6," replies North. "And the last digit is 5."

"Don't listen to him," says East. "It's 2."

"No, it is 5, I'm sure of it," says South.

"Graaaaagh," says West.

You roll your eyes. "Great. Thanks a lot, guys."

Indon
2007-07-11, 03:33 PM
You could always make a cipher.

Ooh! Pull a Contact, use a math-cipher. Replace numbers (use whatever digit system you like) and symbols with different symbols, and include enough distinct equasions for your players to figure out the system.

rollfrenzy
2007-07-11, 03:39 PM
I have a couple ideas, but here (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/riddles/intro.shtml) is a link to a database of puzzles and riddles and logic problems hosted by a tech major at UC Berkely. There are TONS of great puzzles from easy to ridiculous.

Citizen Joe
2007-07-11, 03:45 PM
Use the Nazi gold vault door from Operation: Condor (Jackie Chan). You need a special key and you needed to know the three digit combination that MIGHT have been in the journal or may be known to someone else. Then it turns out to be neither and you have to spin a set of dogtags to get the illusion of the code. Turn the key back and forth to the various numbers, and then two people have to pull a set of levers too far apart for one person... get any step wrong and big guns drop out of the ceiling and hose you down.

lukelightning
2007-07-11, 03:47 PM
Give the players a Rubik's cube and tell them they must solve it or their PC's die.

I loathe in-game riddles like this. They are fine if the DM allows for both alternate solutions (like bashing down the door or knock), and for the fact that the characters and players know different things.

Attilargh
2007-07-11, 03:53 PM
It's wicked.
It is wicked. Gimme a hint, is it over nine thousand?

Indon
2007-07-11, 04:08 PM
Near the end of one quest, there's a puzzle to unlock a door. It's wicked.


I have a guess as to the combination:


8-4-2, with East telling the truth, North telling lies, South alternating, and West being hungry for human flesh. South begins with the truth and so lies about the first and third digits.


So, do I get the combination, or does West eat me?

Citizen Joe
2007-07-11, 04:10 PM
its 842...

East is telling the truth, south alternates and north lies.
EDIT: Doh! Ninja'd

Irenaeus
2007-07-11, 04:14 PM
Give the players a Rubik's cube and tell them they must solve it or their PC's die.

All too easy. They need a time limit on that cube.

Indon
2007-07-11, 04:16 PM
All too easy. They need a time limit on that cube.

Breaking and reassembling a Rubik's cube takes less than a minute. :P

Callix
2007-07-11, 04:19 PM
Don't set impossible challenges. I set my group a simple word puzzle, and they couldn't get it. Then theyt all failed intelligence checks for hints. Fortunately, they'd just rescued an academic NPC, who proceeded to roll a 19 on his intelligence check. He solved it.

Irenaeus
2007-07-11, 04:21 PM
Breaking and reassembling a Rubik's cube takes less than a minute. :P

Well, I have to give it to you Alex, that's thinking outside the box.

Arang
2007-07-11, 04:54 PM
On some of the cheaper ones, you can even rip off the stickers, which is even quicker.

For a real challenge, give them 5 minutes and a similar number of dimensions on their cube. Specifically, this (http://www.gravitation3d.com/magiccube5d/).

Flying Elephant
2007-07-11, 05:22 PM
As I have said before, adding four useless levers that change colour make any puzzle harder.

TomTheRat
2007-07-11, 05:35 PM
1 - Door.
2 - Door has a cleverly hidden button.
3 - Button goes click when you press it.
4 - Players expect the door to roll/swing open when button is pressed.
5 - To open door, you must hold button down and lift door from the base at same time.
6 - Players never figure it out, leave in disgust.
7 - ???
8 - Profit.

bugsysservant
2007-07-11, 05:39 PM
I know this is a long shot, but can you write right to left in cursive? One in 6,500 people have the genetic trait that allows them to. Da Vinci was probably the most famous. But I digress. The best puzzle I ever did was to simply write the password on a slip of paper, hand it to them, tell them its written above the door, and let them think. Eventually, one thought of the Da Vinci Code (I am ashamed to admit that I have read it), and held a mirror in front. Problem solved, door bypassed, everybody was happy (well really they were pissed at me for not just handing out the standard logic problem, but it was a good kind of pissed.)
While not the most difficult of problems, it is clever in that you have to think outside of the box, rather than just passing the problem to the group's mathematical or linguistic savant and waiting.

Falconsflight
2007-07-11, 05:47 PM
I'd say, instead of a puzzle, just make it that you need certain items to get through the door. like you need two halves of a moon or something. Some sort of drawing that is the key. And then you place these peices around the dungeon. (Think Resident Evil puzzles) that way they aren't stuck on a riddle they can never figure out, and can just go back and search rooms till they find it.

evisiron
2007-07-11, 05:53 PM
http://www.thievesguild.cc/traps/index.php?p=2

Number 59 is my personal fav.

My group got it, but had a great time figuring it out.

Rad
2007-07-11, 06:17 PM
2 cool doors here...
http://www.goblinscomic.com/tf5.html
but probably not that suitable for play

mikeejimbo
2007-07-11, 07:18 PM
The Door of Riddles that are too Damn Hard is the best.

Wolfbite
2007-07-11, 07:48 PM
Do a double cheese doozey with a little, "SO DARK THE CON OF MAN" and then a level six sudoku to wrap it up! With the time it takes them to solve it properly on the first try, you'll be able to plan your whole next adventure!
And if they fail the puzzle...you can have a teleport trap go off! :smallbiggrin:

Jack Mann
2007-07-11, 07:55 PM
I know this is a long shot, but can you write right to left in cursive? One in 6,500 people have the genetic trait that allows them to. Da Vinci was probably the most famous.

I never knew southpaws were so rare...

Actually, anyone can learn to do this. Indeed, Arabic is a cursive language written right to left. It's easier for people who are already left-handed, but it's not impossible for right-handers to do so as well. It's perfectly possible to learn to write English backwards, even in cursive. It's just harder for right-handers, and not worth the effort for most people.

Fhaolan
2007-07-11, 07:57 PM
The best one I ever did had this huge long rhyming sonnet of some kind covering the entire door. The players spent *ages* trying to decipher the puzzle.

The stupid door wasn't even locked, but none of them dared touch it in fear of some horrendous magical trap.

TigerHunter
2007-07-11, 08:00 PM
The Door of Riddles that are too Damn Hard is the best.
I never quite got that. Was the point of the comic that the DM cobbled the door together at the last minute, and forgot to actually lock it?

bugsysservant
2007-07-11, 08:08 PM
I never knew southpaws were so rare...

Actually, anyone can learn to do this. Indeed, Arabic is a cursive language written right to left. It's easier for people who are already left-handed, but it's not impossible for right-handers to do so as well. It's perfectly possible to learn to write English backwards, even in cursive. It's just harder for right-handers, and not worth the effort for most people.

It may be possible to learn, but some people certainly have a predisposition. I personally was able to do it with no practice, effectively taking about 30 seconds to "learn it"
Wikipedia (all hail the great wikipedia) says-
"Research suggests that the ability of mirror writing is probably inherited and caused by atypical language organisation in the brain. Approximately 1 in 6500 people in the population inherited the ability of mirror writing and half of their children also inherited the ability. There are more left-handed mirror writers than right-handed ones, probably because left-handed people tend to have atypical language centres in their brain."

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1119739.htm

Edit: Forgot to mention, its not strictly limited to lefties, my dominant hand is my right.

SpiderBrigade
2007-07-11, 08:12 PM
I never quite got that. Was the point of the comic that the DM cobbled the door together at the last minute, and forgot to actually lock it?Well, remember that the Tempts Fate adventures were bonus comics as part of a fundraiser, with his success dependent on how much was donated by a certain date. The level of donations was so hugely more than expected, that the author wanted Tempts to succeed proportionately. So in this case instead of barely answering some riddle, Tempts "owned" the puzzle door by bypassing it completely, Ender's Game style. Similarly, notice how he overcomes the trapped door, or how he uses the explosive treasure room as a joyride.

That was my understanding, anyway.

mikeejimbo
2007-07-11, 08:20 PM
Well, remember that the Tempts Fate adventures were bonus comics as part of a fundraiser, with his success dependent on how much was donated by a certain date. The level of donations was so hugely more than expected, that the author wanted Tempts to succeed proportionately. So in this case instead of barely answering some riddle, Tempts "owned" the puzzle door by bypassing it completely, Ender's Game style. Similarly, notice how he overcomes the trapped door, or how he uses the explosive treasure room as a joyride.

That was my understanding, anyway.

Yeah, I thought it was just a hilarious way of showing how cool Tempts is when enough people donate. Just walking past it, heheh.

Jack Mann
2007-07-11, 08:21 PM
To be able to do it right off the bat, sure. But anyone can do it with a little work. And the "study" the scientist performed was pretty badly flawed. For one thing, not everyone looks at the ads in the paper, and certainly not everyone who sees the ads is likely to respond. Of course, there's also no guarantee that everyone who responded was really able to read the fable without resorting to the mirror, but in any event, but the odds are still good that the real percentage is higher than the poll suggested.

bugsysservant
2007-07-11, 08:35 PM
To be able to do it right off the bat, sure. But anyone can do it with a little work. And the "study" the scientist performed was pretty badly flawed. For one thing, not everyone looks at the ads in the paper, and certainly not everyone who sees the ads is likely to respond. Of course, there's also no guarantee that everyone who responded was really able to read the fable without resorting to the mirror, but in any event, but the odds are still good that the real percentage is higher than the poll suggested.

There is always error in studies in all branches of science, right down to the quantum mechanics of the heisenberg uncertainty principle, but for the moment we still trust them reasonably far. And it doesn't really matter that they had to use a mirror for the fable, because they also had to write backwards to be considered a mirror writer. While his figure may be a little low, I wouldn't disparage its accuracy too much.
And even if you doubt the statistics of his study, it is pretty clear that untrained mirror writing is genetic, linked to language centers and inherent traits of the corpus callosum, and it is unreasonable to expect a DM to retrain his entire mind solely for a clever door puzzle.

PS-have you or any of your friends ever learned how to write from right to left? I would be interested to learn how difficult that is.

Jack Mann
2007-07-11, 08:44 PM
Re-read the article. His methodology is greatly flawed. Real scientific studies have margins of error, sure, but not so great as his.

And it only asked them to read it, not to be able to write backwards.

bugsysservant
2007-07-11, 08:53 PM
Re-read the article. His methodology is greatly flawed. Real scientific studies have margins of error, sure, but not so great as his.

And it only asked them to read it, not to be able to write backwards.

Not to nit-pick but "Those who responded were surveyed and among other things asked to write the first verse of the Australian song 'Waltzing Matilda' in mirror writing.
" (emphasis mine). While he did have a sub-par method of selecting the candidates, the ones he did find were indeed mirror writers.

Also, using newspapers to find candidates for study is a fairly standard practice in the scientific world, as, if his statistics hold, he would have had to survey 6,500 random people in order to find one mirror writer. Using the backwards ad was merely a way to narrow down the prospective candidates to a reasonable number who would have a high probability of being able to write backwards.

Jack Mann
2007-07-11, 09:06 PM
Ah, my mistake. So, it's at least ten people.

Still, his methodology is flawed. Studies often use newspapers to find subjects, but not for the testing itself. Statisticians have known for years that this is a poor method of compiling data, since it tends to skew results. He did not have 10 out of 65,000. He had 10 out of the people who looked at the ads and were willing to take the time to try it and then mail in a response (or e-mail, or call in, depending on the contact information he left). That's actually a very small portion of the population, believe it or not. Most people won't care enough to do so.

bugsysservant
2007-07-11, 09:24 PM
Fine, the statistic 1 out of 6,500 people may be a bit off, but that doesn't change the inherent reality: it is a rare genetic trait. If the DM has that gene, it is a feasible way to make a decent puzzle for a door. If he doesn't, he will have to endure a grueling learning process in which he attempts to develop areas of his mind that, genetically speaking, he was never supposed to use. Whether or not 1 in 6,500, or 1 in 6,000 or whatever actually has it isn't really the point.

PS-studies almost never rely solely on people choosing to take them with no benefit to do so. They offer compensation, usually money, to take a brief survey, which does yield a remarkably high rate of success since *people like money*

Prometheus
2007-07-11, 11:13 PM
A room full of keys of all different shapes, sizes, materials, and symbols - describe a variety of them, but be sure to make clear their numbers are nearly endless.One door, one impossible to pick lock that matches about 100 of the keys in materials, symbols, shape etc. but none of which fit. In truth, the door remains locked if ANY key is in it, but swings open with ease if it is simply pushed.

Another: A Spherical structure covered with holes that are each tunnels to the hole on the other side, but to none other (think about it, this means each tunnel is magic and not merely physical). They are placed on the sphere wherever there is a face on a d20 (helps player imagine) with it sitting as if the d20 were resting on a surface. The one tunnel that leads inside is the one at the very top, because its accompanying tunnel is blocked by the ground

I actually had the sphere + holes puzzle lead to my many keys puzzle.

bugsysservant
2007-07-11, 11:25 PM
A room full of keys of all different shapes, sizes, materials, and symbols - describe a variety of them, but be sure to make clear their numbers are nearly endless.One door, one impossible to pick lock that matches about 100 of the keys in materials, symbols, shape etc. but none of which fit. In truth, the door remains locked if ANY key is in it, but swings open with ease if it is simply pushed.

Another: A Spherical structure covered with holes that are each tunnels to the hole on the other side, but to none other (think about it, this means each tunnel is magic and not merely physical). They are placed on the sphere wherever there is a face on a d20 (helps player imagine) with it sitting as if the d20 were resting on a surface. The one tunnel that leads inside is the one at the very top, because its accompanying tunnel is blocked by the ground

I actually had the sphere + holes puzzle lead to my many keys puzzle.

The first one isn't bad conceptually, but it does need some work. The primary problem (as I see it) is that, you can't put a key in a lock without pushing it. Maybe the door needs to be pulled?

The second is just a bit odder. Are there repercussions to entering a wrong tunnel? Is it just a tedious problem of trial and error, or are they supposed to read your mind and just go in the top to begin with? To make it a decent puzzle, you would have to have a riddle with the solution being to enter the top, but if you have a riddle anyway, you may as well make the answer the word that opens a standard door.

ski309
2007-07-12, 09:56 AM
Wow, so many good ideas! Thanks guys.

Solo
2007-07-12, 10:04 AM
I have a guess as to the combination:


8-4-2, with East telling the truth, North telling lies, South alternating, and West being hungry for human flesh. South begins with the truth and so lies about the first and third digits.


So, do I get the combination, or does West eat me?

The real question is: "How do they play bridge if West goes 'Graaah' every time he's supposed to bid?"

Indon
2007-07-12, 10:11 AM
The real question is: "How do they play bridge if West goes 'Graaah' every time he's supposed to bid?"

Simple.

His partner is North, who translates.

Blue Paladin
2007-07-12, 11:28 AM
Simple.

His partner is North, who translates.

Um. Wouldn't his partner be East?

Lapak
2007-07-12, 11:37 AM
The real question is: "How do they play bridge if West goes 'Graaah' every time he's supposed to bid?"Answer 1: They're actually playing whist.
Answer 2: West always passes, and plays the dummy if East wins the bidding.
Answer 3: The guards are all constructs, as could be guessed from their programmed tendencies. West was the most polite and articulate member of the foursome until the human arrived.

Dervag
2007-07-12, 12:10 PM
There is always error in studies in all branches of science, right down to the quantum mechanics of the heisenberg uncertainty principle, but for the moment we still trust them reasonably far. And it doesn't really matter that they had to use a mirror for the fable, because they also had to write backwards to be considered a mirror writer. While his figure may be a little low, I wouldn't disparage its accuracy too much.
And even if you doubt the statistics of his study, it is pretty clear that untrained mirror writing is genetic, linked to language centers and inherent traits of the corpus callosum, and it is unreasonable to expect a DM to retrain his entire mind solely for a clever door puzzle.

PS-have you or any of your friends ever learned how to write from right to left? I would be interested to learn how difficult that is.If all you're trying to do is write one passage in mirror writing, you don't really need to practice it. You're using your dominant hand; all you have to do is form reversed images of the letters.

I did my name in mirror writing on the first try; all you have to do is picture the letter and shape the reverse of it. Now, granted that you'll have to think about the shape of every letter, but it'll work out just fine for short passages.

Now, granted that the handwriting looked as if it had been done by a second-grader. But then, my cursive handwriting looks as if it had been done by a second-grader all the time, because I hardly ever use cursive script for anything except signing my name.


Not to nit-pick but "Those who responded were surveyed and among other things asked to write the first verse of the Australian song 'Waltzing Matilda' in mirror writing.
" (emphasis mine). While he did have a sub-par method of selecting the candidates, the ones he did find were indeed mirror writers.So what about all the people who don't know the first verse of "Waltzing Matilda?"

North
2007-07-12, 02:36 PM
All these posts and noone mentions the classic trap

The door says Push but its really a Pull.

Mwa ha ha

bugsysservant
2007-07-12, 03:31 PM
If all you're trying to do is write one passage in mirror writing, you don't really need to practice it. You're using your dominant hand; all you have to do is form reversed images of the letters.

I did my name in mirror writing on the first try; all you have to do is picture the letter and shape the reverse of it. Now, granted that you'll have to think about the shape of every letter, but it'll work out just fine for short passages.

Now, granted that the handwriting looked as if it had been done by a second-grader. But then, my cursive handwriting looks as if it had been done by a second-grader all the time, because I hardly ever use cursive script for anything except signing my name.

Writing ones name is one thing, writing out a song is another, and there were other criteria. While one can write one word with relative ease, I count almost 80 in the first verse of Waltzing Mathilda, and there was probably some form of time limit. This wouldn't have affected true mirror writers because we can write as easily forwards as back, but it would have definitely slowed down someone who can't.


So what about all the people who don't know the first verse of "Waltzing Matilda?"

Queensland (where the study took place if you read the article) is in Australia, and Waltzing Matilda is their unofficial national anthem, and arguably the most widely known song there. Not being able to recall the words would be like not knowing the words to "The Star Spangled Banner" for an American. And if you really didn't know the song, I'm sure you could pick a passage of equivalent length.

Maroon
2007-07-12, 03:39 PM
A door set in a brick wall that, when opened, reveals more brick wall. The trick is to open the door entirely until it touches the brick wall on the other side, after which you open it again to reveal a doorway.

Roderick_BR
2007-07-12, 04:02 PM
Breaking and reassembling a Rubik's cube takes less than a minute. :P
And gets you turned into a monkey (Jumangi Cartoon reference)

Maybe I have played too much Megaman Battle Network 5, but how about instead of a single door, a set of doors that need to be opened in a particular order, each one with a set of traps, monsters, and riddles? It'll mentally exhaust the players :smallamused:

A door trap my friend made once.

The key is a long metallic tube that can be found after some searching (add to it that it has no special marks, unless you look closely, it usually looks like an ordinary metal bat)
The keyhole is a deep hole inside the door. A PC needs to push his hand into it, up to his elbow. Halflings, gnomes, dwarves and goliaths will have trouble.
Once there, he needs to twist it precisely 270 degrees to one side. If he twist it fully 360 degrees, he'll hear a sound that looks like the lock opened, but it'll, instead, puncture his hand with 1d4+1 daggers without any attack roll (and no critical), with strength damage poison, then retreat. The hand will be unusable untill the PC get a healing spell.
The player need have Trap Finding and roll Listen 22 to notice that the sound is a trap sound, and not a lock sound. If he does, he can roll save DC 20 to avoid the attack of each dagger.
If he twists it slowly, someone with Trap Finding can roll Listen 22 to notice when the lock actually opens.

bugsysservant
2007-07-12, 04:11 PM
A door set in a brick wall that, when opened, reveals more brick wall. The trick is to open the door entirely until it touches the brick wall on the other side, after which you open it again to reveal a doorway.

Hmm...If you aren't careful with that you players might think you "pulled a Vetinary," merely to instill a sense of false hope (Going postal) in your PCs. If your characters think that it is merely a fake door they will seek other means or merely give up.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-12, 04:14 PM
An illusionary door that can't in fact be opened.

Twenty feet down the hall is a regular door covered by the illusion of a wall.