Has D&D ever had Ratfolk?

[kraftcheese]

Ratmen, skaven, rat people; call 'em what you want, they turn up every now and then across fantasy media.

I was wondering whether anyone knows whether an intelligent rodent people has ever been explored in D&D; the closest I've ever heard of is the Cranium Rats from Planescape.

[Dimers]

There were nezumi in Oriental Adventures for 3.X. That hits the nail on the head, but it's not a source a lot of people own.

Then you also have wererats, and maybe rat hengeyokai, but those aren't really ratfolk.

[Sneak Dog]

Pathfinder has them. It's not D&D, but close.

[Mutazoia]

What you are looking for are Were-Rats (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Wererat)

[hamishspence]

Not quite the same thing - since they shapeshift - I believe the OP wanted something that looks like a humanoid rat all the time.


Anthropomorphic Creature template from Savage Species is a good start (Dire Rat, being Small, is I think big enough for a reasonable-sized being).

I think MM3's Armand:

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/82962.jpg

might qualify as ratlike enough, too.

[Joe the Rat]

I think MM3's Armand:

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/82962.jpg

might qualify as ratlike enough, too.
Cue the armadillo hairdresser jokes.
The "imported-from-Rokugan" Nezumi and the Pathfinder Ratfolk are the closest. Which seems odd - I'm sure we're missing something in the 40-odd years of D&D history. They've had anthropomorphic everything else...

[kraftcheese]

Cue the armadillo hairdresser jokes.
The "imported-from-Rokugan" Nezumi and the Pathfinder Ratfolk are the closest. Which seems odd - I'm sure we're missing something in the 40-odd years of D&D history. They've had anthropomorphic everything else...
I guess it could be D&D not wanting to look like they're ripping of Warhammer Fantasy?

Other fantasy media's done rat people, I'm sure, but I feel like the skaven are the "trope codifier"; at least in RPG/tabletop stuff, anyway.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder has them. It's not D&D, but close.

The PF version also has some cool, ratlike abilities like their Swarming racial and Scent.

They will also be a core race in the upcoming sci-fi Starfinder game.

[Thrudd]

I guess it could be D&D not wanting to look like they're ripping of Warhammer Fantasy?

Other fantasy media's done rat people, I'm sure, but I feel like the skaven are the "trope codifier"; at least in RPG/tabletop stuff, anyway.

Skaven were introduced in Warhammer's 2nd edition in 1986. D&D had been around for over a decade at that point, with no rat-men, though there were giant rats and were-rats.

Thundarr the Barbarian, on the other hand, had rat-men ("Groundlings") in its first episode in 1980.

I don't know if there is a particular pre-1980 story or novel from which rat-men might have been drawn.

[shadow_archmagi]

Well, yeah? What did you think gnomes are? :smallyuk:

That aside, I always thought of kobolds as ratty, but I guess that's just an artifact of having been into Dwarf Fortress before D&D, since WOTC seems pretty deadset on making them lizardy. Most racial traits I'd give to ratfolk I'd give to kobolds and call it a day.

[KillianHawkeye]

That aside, I always thought of kobolds as ratty, but I guess that's just an artifact of having been into Dwarf Fortress before D&D, since WOTC seems pretty deadset on making them lizardy. Most racial traits I'd give to ratfolk I'd give to kobolds and call it a day.

Actually, kobolds used to be kinda like ratty mongrel dog-men before WotC took over and made them into reptilian dragon-folk sixteen years ago.

[Joe the Rat]

ratty dog-faced kobolds.... with scales, by 1st ed. Monster Manual art. They downplayed the scale design (and were pug-rat-ier) in 2nd ed's art, but still listed them as egg layers.

[Arbane]

I don't know if there is a particular pre-1980 story or novel from which rat-men might have been drawn.

Fritz Leiber had rat-people in one or two of his Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories, IIRC. (They had a conspiracy to take over the city of Lankhmar.) Other than that, not sure.

[RazorChain]

If you need'em just borrow the skaven and adjust them to your setting. Skaven are imo the most fun and interesting rat-men race I've encountered

[shadow_archmagi]

Actually, kobolds used to be kinda like ratty mongrel dog-men before WotC took over and made them into reptilian dragon-folk sixteen years ago.

Praise be! My kobolds are the true canon! I've ascended to the next level of Grognard, and now default to 90's stuff without having to read it first.

[RazorChain]

Praise be! My kobolds are the true canon! I've ascended to the next level of Grognard, and now default to 90's stuff without having to read it first.

Well mining kobolds in folklore may appear dogfaced beings that infested mines and caused collapses. Therefore miners left offerings to kobolds to have them on their good side.

Lots of monsters in dnd are actually based on myths and folktales

[Coventry]

Ratmen, skaven, rat people; call 'em what you want, they turn up every now and then across fantasy media.

I was wondering whether anyone knows whether an intelligent rodent people has ever been explored in D&D; the closest I've ever heard of is the Cranium Rats from Planescape.

The Sword&Sorcery Creature Catalog (pp 150-154) book for their 3.X "Scarred Lands" campaign setting had several subspecies of "Ratman (Slitheren)": Brown Gorger (Raiders and Pillagers), The Diseased, Foamer (rabid barbarians), and Red Witch (arcane casters).

I used my Skaven minis to represent them.

[Blackhawk748]

Kingdoms of Kalamar has Ratfolk, though its in Monsters of Tellene so you probably dont have it.

[Verbannon]

4e made shifters for the furry crowd. No reason there couldnt be rat shifters.

[Waddacku]

4e made shifters for the furry crowd. No reason there couldnt be rat shifters.

Shifters are from 3.x.

[inuyasha]

4e made shifters for the furry crowd. No reason there couldnt be rat shifters.

And they weren't really for the furry crowd either. From what I remember, the pictures weren't that hairy, just muscular and somewhat toothy, with a hint of a lion-ish nose sometimes.

[Zaydos]

I see Scarred Lands got mentioned. So not much for me to add, but...


Fritz Leiber had rat-people in one or two of his Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories, IIRC. (They had a conspiracy to take over the city of Lankhmar.) Other than that, not sure.

They were rats that could turn into hybrid rat-men, or human (but still had 6 breasts, the Grey Mouser made sure that got noted a lot). So very much the direct source of D&D Were-Rats (they even used rapiers and were LE). I mean they're Skaven too, but they were shapeshifters still in Fritz Leiber's work.

[hamlet]

They were in Ptolus as I recall as well if somebody hasn't mentioned it yet. Very WH40K vibe to them.

[Eldan]

Skaven were introduced in Warhammer's 2nd edition in 1986. D&D had been around for over a decade at that point, with no rat-men, though there were giant rats and were-rats.

Thundarr the Barbarian, on the other hand, had rat-men ("Groundlings") in its first episode in 1980.

I don't know if there is a particular pre-1980 story or novel from which rat-men might have been drawn.

The original Skaven were inspired very strongly by the Swords of Lankhmar, in which intelligent (but not very humanoid) rat swarms try to take on a city by first taking out its grain deliveries, then fully laying siege to it.

A few things that inspired the Skaven: magic that makes rats grow huge, rat sorcerer, rat-human hybrids, the Council of Thirteen (same name, even), sneaky rat-assassins, leaders that are pure-white albinos.

There's also a few historical, though probably legendary and exaggerated bits: like a Rat-like demon that stalked Hamburg in the middle ages, or a German bishop that was swarmed and killed by a pack of rats.

[holywhippet]

I guess it could be D&D not wanting to look like they're ripping of Warhammer Fantasy?

Even if D&D didn't predate Warhammer, that would be funny given they were ripping off from so many other sources. Quite a bit of D&D is borrowed from fictional books or from real world religions and cultures.

[Zaydos]

They were also pretty open about it. Only one they ever tried to deny was Tolkien and that was Gygax going 'I considered him 2nd rate and sword and sorcery was better, and hack and slash not epic quests dang it, my players and marketing advisers said to throw in his elves, and dwarves and stuff, and so I stuck as close as I could to the mythical versions* and made hobbits suck**'

Gygax actually had a rather extensive list of 'I ripped these off' in the 1e books, Dragon #1 even had them talking to Leiber about his new Lhankmar board game and noted they borrowed heavily from him in D&D.

*D&D dwarves are not actually any closer to mythical dwarves than Tolkien's, and in fact are further in ways Tolkien started, actually further. D&D elves are more arguable.

**oD&D hobbits were strictly worse than being a human fighter. This was apparently intentional to discourage players actually playing hobbits.

[illyahr]

Here's a funny bit of trivia for you: both goblin and kobold are assumed to come from the greek kobalos and were thought to be impudent, thieving, mischievous gnome-dwarfs.

[Jay R]

According to the source material*, boggies are on "the evolutionary line that leads from rats to wolverines and eventually to" stereotype jokes.


*Bored of the Rings, by the Harvard Lampoon

[snowblizz]

Even if D&D didn't predate Warhammer, that would be funny given they were ripping off from so many other sources. Quite a bit of D&D is borrowed from fictional books or from real world religions and cultures.

Those don't sue. GW got pretty good at that.

Guess they did a gentleman's agreement to keep it all hush hush so the Tolkien estate didn't check theri stuff.:smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:


Although I do belong to the faction to consider Skaven the only remotely original thing GW did.

[Thrudd]

Those don't sue. GW got pretty good at that.

Guess they did a gentleman's agreement to keep it all hush hush so the Tolkien estate didn't check theri stuff.:smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:


Although I do belong to the faction to consider Skaven the only remotely original thing GW did.

Apparently that's not the case. Sounds like they're heavily inspired by a Lieber story.

[Zaydos]

The lizardfolk are the only things in Warhammer which I didn't immediately recognize as a child, that is while I was familiar with lizardmen, the culture actually distinguished them from other versions I'd seen, instead of being wererats that couldn't take human form naturally (I hadn't read the Leiber story at the time, which is where the similarity actually came from but).

Still actually consider the lizardfolk pretty original, and stealing worthy.

[snowblizz]

Apparently that's not the case. Sounds like they're heavily inspired by a Lieber story.

Everything is heavily inspired by something. And I've read Lieber, though a while ago, I was going of what was said upthread. Basically they have had a lot fleshing out since then, that is the originality to which I refer.

Orcs, Dwarfs, Elfs and men (not to mention Shire hobbits, I mean halflings from the Moot) are if not carbon Tolkien copies simply historical facsimiles (mainly the human factions).

[Bohandas]

Those don't sue. GW got pretty good at that.

Guess they did a gentleman's agreement to keep it all hush hush so the Tolkien estate didn't check theri stuff.:smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:

No. I think they were sued by Tolkien