Surface Thoughts: examples, clarifcations, discussion? (also pie)

[Jowgen]

Detect Thoughts and similar effects allow a creature to read/listen to the surface thoughts of creatures. What I am looking for are written examples or clarifications of what that entails, as well as individual opinions of course. As I doubt that there are many good/clear examples/clarifications, I'll set up the relvant discussion.

We know that animals have "simple instinctual thoughts" that detect thoughts can pick up, so surface thoughts is not be limited to conscious reasoning (the dog has no awareness of the fact it is thinking). For the purpose of this discussion, I think it would be best to minimize overly technical terminology, so I hereby request that all contributions be put in the context of pie.

So for example, if a Dog that's unfamiliar with pie chanced upon a pie, it's instinctual thoughts might be along the lines of "What that? Smell like tasty. Me eat? There danger? No smell/hear/see danger. Me eat!" (he dog proceeds to eat the pie). I think this is a pretty conservative estimate on what Detect Thoughts would pick up in this situation: The observations, conclusions and questions the dog exhibits during its encounter with the pie. Please feel free to disagree if you think I'm off.

Now what if the dog had pie before and recalled this? Would the information from the pie memory retrieval count as surface thoughts, allowing one access to the recalled information, and if yes, to what detail? Would we know when and where (from the dog's perspective) the pie was, what it smelled, tasted, sounded and looked like to the dog? What about affective information, as in how the dog felt while eating or because of eating that pie in the past? IRL, all of these are undivideable parts of the pie memory.

Now while, Detect Thoughts does carry the risk of being stunned if/when it picks up a creature with an Int score of 26+ (as well as 10 points higher than the casters), meaning that Intelligence clearly has a bearing on all this, I think that (at least for now) we ought to avoid going into about how pie related surface thoughts may differ for an Elderbrain, advaned dragon, or Inevitable.

And as a side note, I apologize to anyone who ended up craving pie as a result of reading this. Which is in itself interesting, in how reading about pie can evoke the desire for it by triggering pie-related memories and thoughts on some level; but I fear that discussing that would be too much of a tangent. :smallbiggrin:

[Professor Chimp]

I've always interpreted it as picking up the current surface thoughts of whatever creature you're using it on i.e. you can't go digging around its brain for the code to the safe full of gold unless it is specifically thinking about that, which is unlikely in many situations (but could be manipulated with social skills). How detailed the information is also depends on the type of creature and its intelligence.

For example:
Zombie - BRAAAAAAAAAINS! (I know Detect Thoughts doesn't work on creatures with no INT, but I'm making an exception)Animal - basic instinctual/emotional content expressed in single words like 'angry', 'scared', 'hungry'Troll or other relatively low INT creature - basically think like the Incredible Hulk talks e.g. 'Troll eat puny human'Human Commoner or other avg INT creature - simple, but structured sentences e.g. 'I should pick up some bread at the bakery'
And so on...

The amount of information (which is not necessarily useful) gleaned and its complexity would keep increasing with intelligence until you reach that INT 26+ (or 10 points higher than your own), at which point it becomes too much to process all at once, or too complex to understand if the caster is a bit of a dumdumb.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Surface thoughts, by my understanding, are simply what the target is thinking at the moment the effect allows the caster to hear them, expressed as the concepts themselves rather than the linguistic terms the creature would use, if any.

For your example, the caster would get a sense of curiosity and/or confusion from the dog who's never encountered pie before. The lack of recognition of an object being the source of that confusion would be apparent and the dog would likely recognize the smell of fruit and, if it's encountered humans before, hints of breadishness. A wild dog would likely also have a constant, underlying current of wariness outside of its den for the caster to pick up on. Most likely, the dog would quickly decide its neither food (from its own perspective) or a threat and discard it as anything to be concerned about.

If that same dog later encountered another pie, the caster would sense the recognition and quick exclusion of the object from further thought. There would be nothing of where it was previously encountered unless the dog chose, for whatever reason, to think back on it; something that would be almost unheard of in a creature that likely has no sense of the passage of time.

Stepping up to a human encountering a pie for the first time, the same sense of confusion/curiosity would be present but more detail might be forthcoming if he decides to examine the foreign (to him) object. That it's some kind of food would be really apparent, as would the circular shape. Comparisons to other foods, like a boule style bread, might come to mind. If he takes it in hand, his perception of the weight of it in his hand would come through (heavy for its size, for example). He might ask anyone nearby if they know what this food is called and that query would be as apparent to the caster as if he were the one asked, regardless of language used, though any answer would come through simply as it was heard though the caster might recognize the term if it is in a language he knows.

The same person encountering a pie again at some later point would simply recognize the pie conceptually and the caster would recognize the thought of pie as just that, though he might not be able to make much of it if he's not familiar with pie himself.

That help at all?

[Jowgen]

That help at all?

Indeed. Surface thoughts as a state of mind, experience or impressions; rather than sentences, sounds etc.; is a rather nice and elegant way to look at it. Less look-at-screen, more feel-the-flow. It avoids issues with languabe barriers, fits in emotional states seamlessly... thinking about it, another nice thing is that it lets you fit in the caster's own capacity quite nicely. If you're only perceiving the impression of a complex thought, then you don't get to automatically understand it unless it is something within your own capacity to comprehend. For example, reading the mind of a master chef to get a pie recipy he's thinking about, when you yourself know jack about food, isn't going to help since you lack information that is needed to put it into context (i.e. "Some I'm just supposed to know when the cherries have... "acidulated"?), not to mention keeping up with all those minute details he's thinking about all at once.

It's a well-rounded approach, kudos. :smallsmile: