What exactly can you do with 20 STR?

[DiceDiceBaby]

Hello, Giants!

Browsing through the forums, it seems a general consensus that casters have it good while martials have it rough. That said, classical mythology and storytelling (and the nature of D&D) would compel me to think that 20 Strength (supposedly the peak of any non-Barbarian mortal) would mean something more than just having a neat Athletics check. Perhaps storytelling devices are the only things separating martials from casters in that regard?

A quick browse through the MM, PHB and DMG would tell you that having 20 STR makes you stronger then, (or as strong as): a Brown Bear, a Troll, a Manticore, a Bullete, a Hippogriff, or even an Ettin. If it is acceptable in the theater of the mind that any of these have the power of a bulldozer, then why couldn't a PC do it, too?

Proficiency in Athletics and STR 20 by level 4 (given the right builds or rolled stats), grants a minimum check of 8, and a maximum of 27. A 25 is supposed to be a very difficult DC to hit: a DM once told me he'd rate 25 as the CHA (Persuasion) check to "convince a dragon" to do something. Expertise in Athletics makes a maxed out STR at 20th level (Athletics) Check a minimum of 18 (12 + 5 + 1) and a maximum of 37 (12 + 5 + 20). Since 15 is hard, and 35 is supposed to be nigh-impossible, I'd assume a level 20 PC should be doing feats of superhuman strength, without magical assistance.

If the magic users can bend the laws of reality, what is stopping martial classes from going along the lines of Hercules, Gilgamesh, Beowulf, etc. by smashing through walls, averting natural disasters with their bare hands, and tossing boulders blocking their way aside? Has anyone out there actually made a matrial character with Expertise in Athletics and 20 STR (or gone up to 24 using the Barbarian capstone) and seen how far they could go with feats of strength?

I'm not very good with numbers, but the rules in the PHB for carrying weight (that is, being encumbered) are supposed to be quite ridiculous; even a PC with average strength should have little difficulty lifting objects which would, in reality, be hard even for professional athletes to lift. Perhaps mortals in D&D have much higher standards of physical might in our world? I'd imagine 20 STR to therefore be not just "peak mortal", but downright "superhuman" by our standards.

Please don't tell me it's because it's too unrealistic? :smallconfused:

TL;DR - Why don't PCs with 20 STR try to do more epic stuff? Is it that DMs don't think it's cool? Or D&D players in general feel that STR is really unimpressive?

[hymer]

TL;DR - Why don't PCs with 20 STR try to do more epic stuff? Is it that DMs don't think it's cool? Or D&D players in general feel that STR is really unimpressive?

It seems to me the system doesn't want this to happen. In a strength contest between someone with 1 strength and 20 strength, there is about 12% chance the 1 str character wins, IIRC. 20 str means you can automatically leap 20'. I've done that, and I'm not exactly athleticly inclined.
In other words, the system itself points to strength 20 being surprisingly pathetic.

That said, I'd applaud all ability score differences be played up in game. 20 charisma characters should make genuine impressions very easily, unlike cha 10 characters. Int 20 character should comprehend things Int 10 characters can't even formulate the questions for. Though this can be hard to do in practice.

[Specter]

Compared to other editions, I think martials are now better than ever.

But addressing your point, it's all about a) the DM creating situations where a strong man is needed (breaking doors, pushing a giant boulder, etc.), or b) the player thinking about how to be impressive with his strenght.

[mgshamster]

It seems to me the system doesn't want this to happen. In a strength contest between someone with 1 strength and 20 strength, there is about 12% chance the 1 str character wins, IIRC. 20 str means you can automatically leap 20'. I've done that, and I'm not exactly athleticly inclined.
In other words, the system itself points to strength 20 being surprisingly pathetic.

That said, I'd applaud all ability score differences be played up in game. 20 charisma characters should make genuine impressions very easily, unlike cha 10 characters. Int 20 character should comprehend things Int 10 characters can't even formulate the questions for. Though this can be hard to do in practice.

In game, you can make a 20' running jump without a check, or a 10' standing jump without a check. You can make a strength check for an unusually long jump. A champion adds a number of feet equal to their strength mod, so another 5 ft. A thief adds a number of feet equal to their dex mod.

The first recorded women's world running long jump record was 16 feet, the current is 25. The first men's recorded running long jump record was 25 feet, the current is 30. The current standing long jump record is just over 12 feet. So without training or a skill check, you're close to the level of Olympic jumpers.

A 20 str, 20 dex level 10 champion/theif can run long jump 30 feet, exceeding current Olympic world records without a skill check. They can go further with a skill check.

I'm not sure I'd call that "surprisingly pathetic."

[pwykersotz]

Characters who reach 20 Str in my games can perform superhuman feats of athletic prowess without skill checks, at the discretion of the narrative. Mostly it ends up being used to hurl incredibly heavy objects far distances, but we keep our minds open for anything that one of the "Strongest men in the world" could do. A Barbarian with 24 Strength on the other hand, I haven't had the opportunity to consider.

[hymer]

In game, you can make a 20' running jump without a check, or a 10' standing jump without a check. You can make a strength check for an unusually long jump. A champion adds a number of feet equal to their strength mod, so another 5 ft. A thief adds a number of feet equal to their dex mod.

The first recorded women's world running long jump record was 16 feet, the current is 25. The first men's recorded running long jump record was 25 feet, the current is 30. The current standing long jump record is just over 12 feet. So without training or a skill check, you're close to the level of Olympic jumpers.

A 20 str, 20 dex level 10 champion/theif can run long jump 30 feet, exceeding current Olympic world records without a skill check. They can go further with a skill check.

I'm not sure I'd call that "surprisingly pathetic."

Adding in other abilities than what you'd get from a straight 20 isn't nearly as bad, I agree. But then, if we're adding in stuff, we're talking about something else. But maybe I should be more precise: I do in fact think that compared to what else you see in the game, having a natural 20 in strength is suprisingly pathetic for out of combat uses.

[MrStabby]

I have tried to put circumstances in my campaigns where high Str is useful but my players don't often use it. Last one was a palisade fence to an encampment - a Str 20 character would have been literally able to tear their way into the camp from the back and avoid many of the defences. It never happened.

[mgshamster]

Adding in other abilities than what you'd get from a straight 20 isn't nearly as bad, I agree. But then, if we're adding in stuff, we're talking about something else. But maybe I should be more precise: I do in fact think that compared to what else you see in the game, having a natural 20 in strength is suprisingly pathetic for out of combat uses.

I'm confused. Adding in an extra 5 feet to the run long jump from champion is an acceptable level of power for strength. But without that, strength is surprisingly pathetic? What makes "near olympic" levels without training or a skill check surprisingly pathetic, whereas adding in the champs extra 5' it becomes acceptable?

That seems like a very small change in power level for such a vast difference in the perception of the appropriate power level.

[hymer]

I'm confused. Adding in an extra 5 feet to the run long jump from champion is an acceptable level of power for strength.

Is that you asserting this, or is it you reading this in my comment? It seems the latter. I certainly didn't mean to imply it. I was trying to get away from talking about what happens with str 20 when adding it to other abilities. I was talking about 20 str in itself.

A druid in steeder form can jump 90', which is what lurks in the back of my mind when looking at the ability to leap certain distances.

[mgshamster]

Is that you asserting this, or is it you reading this in my comment? It seems the latter. I certainly didn't mean to imply it. I was trying to get away from talking about what happens with str 20 when adding it to other abilities. I was talking about 20 str in itself.

Ah. That makes more sense than what I understood before.


A druid in steeder form can jump 90', which is what lurks in the back of my mind when looking at the ability to leap certain distances.

What is steeder form?

[hymer]

What is steeder form?

The Female Steeder is a beast from OotA, which can use its movement for the round to leap 90' even vertically.

[mgshamster]

The Female Steeder is a beast from OotA, which can use its movement for the round to leap 90' even vertically.

That is pretty cool. However, didn't you just get done saying that we shouldn't be comparing it to class abilities?

[hymer]

That is pretty cool. However, didn't you just get done saying that we shouldn't be comparing it to class abilities?

Not really, no. :smalltongue:

[GlenSmash!]

20 strength for a PC doesn't actually make a pc as strong as a Brown bear or Ettin since those are larger creatures that have increased Carrying Capacity/lift/press/pull and increased number of weapon damage dice.

So it's not even as good as you presented it :smallwink:

On the other hand how is it different from a 20 in any other ability score? What does a 20 over an 18 in any score give you beyond a better chance to succeed at the same kinds of tasks?

If you want to make 20s feel more epic, I'd make legendary items that require a 20 in a particular score to attune. For example a Maul that requires a 20 in Strength. that lets a PC slam it into the ground and cause earthquakes or can knockback foes when struck.

Or gauntlets that let one rip limbs off of a foe or snap necks.

Or you could just do these things as Strength checks without magic items. Whatever floats your boat.

[mgshamster]

20 strength for a PC doesn't actually make a pc as strong as a Brown bear or Ettin since those are larger creatures that have increased Carrying Capacity/lift/press/pull and increased number of weapon damage dice.

So it's not even as good as you presented it :smallwink:

On the other hand how is it different from a 20 in any other ability score? What does a 20 over an 18 in any score give you beyond a better chance to succeed at the same kinds of tasks?

If you want to make 20s feel more epic, I'd make legendary items that require a 20 in a particular score to attune. For example a Maul that requires a 20 in Strength. that lets a PC slam it into the ground and cause earthquakes or can knockback foes when struck.

Or gauntlets that let one rip limbs off of a foe or snap necks.

Or you could just do these things as Strength checks without magic items. Whatever floats your boat.

I really like those ideas, but if we had it happen automatically, I would make them occur on the odd numbers to give those numbers more importance.

[GlenSmash!]

I really like those ideas, but if we had it happen automatically, I would make them occur on the odd numbers to give those numbers more importance.

I do like giving odd numbers more significance.

[DiceDiceBaby]

20 strength for a PC doesn't actually make a pc as strong as a Brown bear or Ettin since those are larger creatures that have increased Carrying Capacity/lift/press/pull and increased number of weapon damage dice.

So it's not even as good as you presented it :smallwink:

Oh gosh, that's terrible. I was working on the assumption that it would be possible to build something along the lines of a "size-matters-not" strongman character who, like the protagonists of epic sagas and myths of old, could wrestle a bear, lion, or similar apex predator to the ground with their bare hands, despite being of smaller size proportionally.

That said, as mentioned by above posters (thanks for the comments so far!) it seems 20 STR essentially gives us Olympian prowess... but in the context of an Olympic gold medalist, which, while impressive in real life, isn't nearly as nice in a game where you can realistically encounter actual Olympians (as in, those that watch the affairs of mortals from afar as gods and goddesses of D&D).

Is there anything else we can do with STR 20 that would at least be somewhat amusing? I once witnessed a Monk grapple a Gnoll and pummel it into oblivion with his fists, like an avalanche, and with extreme brutality, but apparently the buck stops there.

[ClintACK]

When comparing the Str 20 character to olympic records, keep in mind: The Olympic record is set by someone who is extremely specialized in that one event, and only that one event -- under relatively ideal conditions.


Our Str 20 Athletics Expert isn't just making an Olympic-caliber long jump -- he's doing it while wearing chainmail and holding an axe. And he's following that up by climbing up a world-class rock-face while still wearing the armor and carrying the axe in his teeth.

In real life, no one can accomplish either feat. And in real life anyone who could come close to one of the two feats (like doing it without the armor and axe) would be completely unable to do the other. (The climber will have much stronger forearms and shoulders and the jumper will have much stronger legs.)

And our legendary hero is also Olympic-caliber at picking up heavy weights, throwing a javelin, and swimming upstream.

If he played professional football, he'd run as fast as the fastest receiver AND hit as hard as the largest lineman.

We are talking about a fantasy action hero -- as we should be in D&D -- not just a "regular" Olympic or professional athlete.

[JumboWheat01]

Characters with high STR in the group I play with get to perform our (in)famous opening attack, Throw the Halfling. It's as awesome as it sounds.

Really though, STR gets more of a look at if certain things are enforced, like carrying capacity and push/pulling rules. Otherwise, DEX pretty much does STR job, but does it a lot better. Just looking at the stats alone when maxed...

STR
+5 Hit & Damage (All Melee Weapons & Thrown Weapons)
+5 to a "lesser" Save

DEX
+5 Hit & Damage (Finesse Weapons & Ranged Weapons)
+5 to AC (Light/Armorless) OR +2/3 to AC (Medium/With Feat)
+5 to Initiative
+5 to a "greater" Save

DEX also covers more skills than STR does, so even if you don't take them, having more DEX covers more skill bonuses than STR does.

[CNagy]

When comparing the Str 20 character to olympic records, keep in mind: The Olympic record is set by someone who is extremely specialized in that one event, and only that one event -- under relatively ideal conditions.


Our Str 20 Athletics Expert isn't just making an Olympic-caliber long jump -- he's doing it while wearing chainmail and holding an axe. And he's following that up by climbing up a world-class rock-face while still wearing the armor and carrying the axe in his teeth.

In real life, no one can accomplish either feat. And in real life anyone who could come close to one of the two feats (like doing it without the armor and axe) would be completely unable to do the other. (The climber will have much stronger forearms and shoulders and the jumper will have much stronger legs.)

And our legendary hero is also Olympic-caliber at picking up heavy weights, throwing a javelin, and swimming upstream.

If he played professional football, he'd run as fast as the fastest receiver AND hit as hard as the largest lineman.

We are talking about a fantasy action hero -- as we should be in D&D -- not just a "regular" Olympic or professional athlete.

So a Str 20 character is basically Captain America.

[Coidzor]

Please don't tell me it's because it's too unrealistic? :smallconfused:

TL;DR - Why don't PCs with 20 STR try to do more epic stuff? Is it that DMs don't think it's cool? Or D&D players in general feel that STR is really unimpressive?

System and culture discourage martials from doing superhuman things they're not explicitly allowed to do and there's an endemic problem in the community with the Guy At The Gym Fallacy.

[MrStabby]

Characters with high STR in the group I play with get to perform our (in)famous opening attack, Throw the Halfling. It's as awesome as it sounds.

Really though, STR gets more of a look at if certain things are enforced, like carrying capacity and push/pulling rules. Otherwise, DEX pretty much does STR job, but does it a lot better. Just looking at the stats alone when maxed...

STR
+5 Hit & Damage (All Melee Weapons & Thrown Weapons)
+5 to a "lesser" Save

DEX
+5 Hit & Damage (Finesse Weapons & Ranged Weapons)
+5 to AC (Light/Armorless) OR +2/3 to AC (Medium/With Feat)
+5 to Initiative
+5 to a "greater" Save

DEX also covers more skills than STR does, so even if you don't take them, having more DEX covers more skill bonuses than STR does.

Whilst I agree Dex is a "better" save than Str, I dont think it is by much. Of the 3 weak saves I think Str is probably the strongest on average and of the 3 strong saves I would say dex is the weakest.

I know it is campaign dependant but I think I have thrown a few more Str saves than dex saves at my party - mainly entangling effects. Ensnaring strike and web are not uncommon spells in my world. Sure, they dont tend to do much damage like the dex save spells do but failing one can seriously be tough for an encounter. Most str save spells are also low level so they tend to be thrown around a little more freely.

I also think that when weighing up Str and Dex there is more to be compared. Str lets you wear heavy armour without penalty to movement. Str also supports all the melee fighting styles with good feat support - Pole arms, great weapons and shield mastery (using Str for the shoving).

[Coffee_Dragon]

On the other hand how is it different from a 20 in any other ability score? What does a 20 over an 18 in any score give you beyond a better chance to succeed at the same kinds of tasks?

I think this is a key point. The "guy at the gym fallacy" is invoked much too readily, and in this particular case because the divide is really between explicitly permissive spells and fuzzy action resolution with layers of DM adjudication, not between physical and non-physical capabilities.

"You fail to find the thingy using your thing-finding expertise because I had you tell me the places to look, and apparently you're not very good at choosing those (or you should have spent ten minutes being specific and exhaustive)."

"You fail to make everyone in the room bend over backwards for you with your exceptionally forceful personality, because I asked you to show me how that would play out, and I just didn't find that very convincing."

"You find everything and make friends with everyone, because you say you cast a spell that says so in so many words, and if it didn't play out that way I'd be a jerk DM."


When comparing the Str 20 character to olympic records, keep in mind: The Olympic record is set by someone who is extremely specialized in that one event, and only that one event -- under relatively ideal conditions.

Our Str 20 Athletics Expert isn't just making an Olympic-caliber long jump -- he's doing it while wearing chainmail and holding an axe. And he's following that up by climbing up a world-class rock-face while still wearing the armor and carrying the axe in his teeth.

Also a good point. Pishing the ability to comfortably and consistently jump 20 feet in gear is just not credible.

[Hrugner]

At a certain point, some types of difficult terrain should stop being difficult for you since you can just push through whatever it is. Upending something for cover should be relatively easy. You could probably carry some of the less stealthy party members on your back and sneak around for them. You should probably be able to use large objects in maneuvers to restrain or shove prone people at range. Certain traps should allow strength rather than dex saves, such as stopping a boulder trap, or slowing a crushing ceiling. There should be many situations where the DM determines that your strength could replace charisma for intimidation or specific performance checks. You may also be able to make an animal handling check to calm down an animal simply by pinning it. Some poisons also shouldn't effect you much since you're enough muscle to dilute poisons to nothing. You could lift a carriage, which probably wouldn't survive being dropped on its side.

Just keep in mind the flexibility of the system and see where you could reasonably use a strength that makes a joke of moving fairly cumbersome things.

[Sneak Dog]

Classic example of what a strong character would do is break his manacles to break free. DC20 strength check. A 20 strength character has a 30% chance of success.

D&D 5e is not kind on martials outside of combat, because the system itself seems to promote the guy at the gym fallacy.

Edit: This means that a high-level fighter has no way of getting any better at breaking free from manacles. Ever. Because you do not get to add your proficiency bonus to it. You were as good at it at level 6 as at level 16.

Edit: Even regardless of that, a high amount of strength inherently only gives jumping distance and carrying capacity. For everything else you have to roll, and considering you roll 1d20, it's still mostly up to the die. By maxing out strength to 20 you only increase your average by half. You don't get to just smash open the gates to an estate, you just increase the chance you manage by an absolute 25%.
Now the DM might allow it without roll, but my DM hasn't really been up for that. Probably because he has a DC in mind and that DC does mean there is a chance of failure..

[ClintACK]

Edit: Oops. How did that happen? Posted into wrong thread!

[mgshamster]

Classic example of what a strong character would do is break his manacles to break free. DC20 strength check. A 20 strength character has a 30% chance of success.

D&D 5e is not kind on martials outside of combat, because the system itself seems to promote the guy at the gym fallacy.

Edit: This means that a high-level fighter has no way of getting any better at breaking free from manacles. Ever. Because you do not get to add your proficiency bonus to it. You were as good at it at level 6 as at level 16.

Edit: Even regardless of that, a high amount of strength inherently only gives jumping distance and carrying capacity. For everything else you have to roll, and considering you roll 1d20, it's still mostly up to the die. By maxing out strength to 20 you only increase your average by half. You don't get to just smash open the gates to an estate, you just increase the chance you manage by an absolute 25%.
Now the DM might allow it without roll, but my DM hasn't really been up for that. Probably because he has a DC in mind and that DC does mean there is a chance of failure..

You can break the manacles or smash through the gate given time.

Unless you're under duress where you have one chance and that one chance is time critical, then you get to keep making checks until you succeed. It just takes longer.

Of course, as long as you're doing that, why bother to have a DC. Just allow the player to do it for the sake of the story. Or not do it, for the sake of the story. Which ever works best.

Setting a DC means that not only are the results uncertain, but also that there's a risk of something bad happening upon a failure. If there's no consequence for failure and no time limit, then you'll eventually succeed, which is the same as not needing a DC to begin with.

The fact that your DM either doesn't understand this or ignores it doesn't make it less true.

[lordarkness]

Let's not forget the indirect benefits of 20 strength. You would be fearsome warrior and people respect and/or fear you. You would be renown, adored, and often assumed to be the best; making people want to follow you or to be associated with you because you're at the top of the pecking order. Your exploits would be heard of far and wide and people would come from all over to witness, faun, or to challenge you.

One of the things that makes a fighter stand its own in regards to wizards is that most people can not do more than fight and fighters follow the greatest of fighters. A high level fighter is more likely to have a keep and lands and followers than a a wizard whom people fear and distrust.

Of course, if you only thing with your muscles then you'll only be that.

[Mellack]

I think part of the problem is that feats of great strength are fairly easily reproducable with simple tools or spells. Big 20 Str guy can bust down a door. Little 10 Str guy just uses and axe or crowbar. Two people can push the boulder instead of one. Use a block and tackle. Jump is a 1st level spell that triples distance. There seems to be very little that can only be accomplished by the massise strength guy.

[lordarkness]

Another way to put it is that it takes two men to do what his one person can do on his own. A normal person needs a tool or magic to pull off what this one character can do without effort. It's dramatic, not mundane.

[Thrudd]

I think part of the problem is that feats of great strength are fairly easily reproducable with simple tools or spells. Big 20 Str guy can bust down a door. Little 10 Str guy just uses and axe or crowbar. Two people can push the boulder instead of one. Use a block and tackle. Jump is a 1st level spell that triples distance. There seems to be very little that can only be accomplished by the massise strength guy.

That's because ability scores are a minor part of a character's powers in the game. What can a character do with 20 intelligence, or 20 charisma or 20 wisdom? Talk someone into doing something, which a 1st level charm person spell could also accomplish, or pass a saving throw that could be negated with a resistance spell or a magic item?
It's the class features that really matter in the game.

What feats can be accomplished with ability checks is up to the DM. I would look at creatures with comparable strength and consider what they might accomplish. I'd say a str check DC of 30 or 35 might be something like ripping out a small tree by its roots, throwing a dwarf-sized boulder some distance, punching out somebody in a full steel helm and leaving a big dent in it, ripping someone's arm off or bending their body in half the wrong way, that sort of thing. Stuff a Troll-sized monster can probably do.

Captain America is probably an apt comparison - that or slightly stronger.

[TripleD]

20 strength for a PC doesn't actually make a pc as strong as a Brown bear or Ettin since those are larger creatures that have increased Carrying Capacity/lift/press/pull and increased number of weapon damage dice.

This is one of the things that bugs me about strength, it's the only Attribute which is inconsistently applied.

20 INT means exactly the same thing for a Pixie as it does a Storm Giant. 18 CON grants the same bonuses to Orcs and Nagas. But 16 Strength means different things to a Pit Fiend vs. a Halfling.

I think that's why it's so difficult to figure out what you can do with 20 Strength; you can't compare it against other beings to get sense of what it means.

[lordarkness]

This actually does make sense. If you think about it, strength is affected by leverage. A dragon can do things a person couldn't with the same strength because of the weight they have behind them.

[Thrudd]

This actually does make sense. If you think about it, strength is affected by leverage. A dragon can do things a person couldn't with the same strength because of the weight they have behind them.

That should be taken into account in the strength score already. It measures what you can do, not how you do it. 20 strength should have similar effect no matter who or what wields it. The DM needs to explain how/why a halfling is as strong as a troll.

If a person/creature can pass a DC 35 strength check, then they can do whatever thing the DM has assigned that DC no matter who/what they are.

[lordarkness]

Not at all actually.

imagine 2 men can lift 200lbs but one weight 160 and the other 300.

If you tie a rope to 200lbs of weight and throw it over a high bar the 300lb person can pull down and lift the weight, the 180lb person does pull ups. Same strength but very different outcomes.

[Thrudd]

Not at all actually.

imagine 2 men can lift 200lbs but one weight 160 and the other 300.

If you tie a rope to 200lbs of weight and throw it over a high bar the 300lb person can pull down and lift the weight, the 180lb person does pull ups. Same strength but very different outcomes.

You're not getting what I'm saying. Ability scores are abstract. An ability check is made to see if you can pull down a 200 lb weight. If a character makes the check, they succeed, whether they are a 50 lb halfing or a 500 pound troll. The game rules don't differentiate them.

[lordarkness]

That's true and I agree entirely.