Help me think through the consequences!

[PhoenixPhyre]

Take a standard fantasy-kitchen-sink setting. Basically all the races/classes/magic items. Now make a single change:

"Since only souls can manipulate magic, any sufficiently complicated spell-work will create a soul."
Parameters:

Anything that has to take in magic to function (recharge, change what spell is cast or what happens based on conditions, etc) will trigger this effect.
Storing magic in a fixed pattern is possible but very powerful spells will probably trigger the effect.
Multiple interwoven or interacting spells will create souls more reliably than single powerful effects.


What changes with the world? As I see it, possible effects are (but not limited to):

All but the most basic permanent magical items will probably be intelligent.
The creation of magical intelligences (and the resulting possibilities of spells gone rogue) will damp tendencies towards complex interweaving of spells.
Spell casting will focus more on temporary blasting-type effects rather than more subtle spells.


What other effects would there be? What would be interesting to see?

[arrowed]

The statement could do with some tweaking:
"Since only souls can manipulate magic, any sufficiently complicated spell-work will create a soul." does not make sense to me. It's like saying since computers can only be built by humans, any sufficiently complex computer will become human. Something like 'Since magic is fueled by the energy of souls, a complex enough working of magic can cause a new soul to form. But besides my bothering with the phrasing...
Continual Flames: do these permanent magical fires eventually evolve into fire elementals?
Is it possible to deliberately create magical beings with specific personalities, and is this the way golems/undead/other creatures are made?
Is the intelligence/wisdom/charisma/power of the created soul proportional to the strength of the magical effect that created it?
Cool idea. :smallsmile:

[Murk]

I think there's something missing inbetween "souls" and "conscious, thinking entities".

Sure, it creates souls, but what's to say all souls are intelligent? Can't souls just... be, without affecting anything? Not all life is intelligent, after all.

So I think that needs to be adressed. If you want all these souls to really have impact, there needs to be an explanation for why they are capable of talking/thinking/acting/moving/whatever. Because a sword is a sword, if it has a soul in it or not, unless there's something that allows the sword to do more than just... lay around being a sword.

[Lunarius]

Sure, it creates souls, but what's to say all souls are intelligent? Can't souls just... be, without affecting anything? Not all life is intelligent, after all.


This is an important point, what does it mean to be a soul?


The statement could do with some tweaking: does not make sense to me. It's like saying since computers can only be built by humans, any sufficiently complex computer will become human.


That is, in fact, the fundamental concept behind AI theory, you realize?


Continual Flames: do these permanent magical fires eventually evolve into fire elementals?
Enduring != Complex, this is a fairly simplistic magical effect, and doesn't involve complex interweavings of magic. No soul should result from this casting.



Is it possible to deliberately create magical beings with specific personalities, and is this the way golems/undead/other creatures are made?

I mean, given the scenario, of course. I should suspect that there are spells and rituals specifically aimed at this kind of working. In fact, you named three instances where this is probably the case.



Is the intelligence/wisdom/charisma/power of the created soul proportional to the strength of the magical effect that created it?

I should think the STRENGTH of the entity is related to the magical effect, IE - It's hit die and perhaps abilities. It's other stats may be purely incidental, but with greater potential capacity based on how much power the spell had. I should also think it's a direct result of the intent of the initiating spell.


Now, as for the original poster. It's your campaign, but you get to decide what 'sufficiently complex' magic is. A Permanence spell is 9th level, is THAT complex? How about animate object? I mean, that gets the motion going.

I should think that 'sufficiently complex' would involve ritual magic and the working of things that have multiple layers involved. A Mage School may become sentient simply because of the interweaving of protections, wards, divination, and pure magical essence that is released into the schools environment as a result of learning/casting spells.

A Permanently animated horse statue may become sentient if the owner decides to give it some ability to act on its own, sufficiently glamours it, etc.

But I don't think a Sword +5 of Hoobajoob Slaying should be sentient merely by the strength of its enchantment.

You know what I think *would* have a disturbing chance of becoming sentient? Spellbooks.

[Gwaednerth]

I agree with the tweaks and caveats that have been mentioned, but this is a fantastic idea.

I think it opens up some interesting avenues to explore:
Outsiders are sentient magics, the standard cookie cutter ones are created by the gods & similar, but the more powerful and unique (e.g. demon lords) have enough power that they can cast spells on themselves to alter their very nature.
Factions could form: those who promote soul-casting and create marvels like the living universities and spellbooks mentioned earlier, and those who view soul-casting as creating life without taking responsibility for it and/or tampering with unknown and dangerous powers (very much the criticism in the book version of Frankenstein). I imagine soul-caster sorcerers who envy the sentient spellbooks of wizards, conservative wizards having to jump through hoops to prevent their magics from becoming ensouled.

Anti-magic now also becomes an interesting idea. Does a powerful antimagic spell become the equivalent of an undead?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Thanks for all the input.

A little more (setting-specific) background follows: a "soul" is anything that has the capacity to grow, change, or develop. Magic is the manipulation of Aether (original name, I know) which is the stuff souls are made of. Aether is formed when souls experience new things or grow. Even plants have souls--they create aether as they grow. Some is locked inside the soul itself, but some leaks out and can be manipulated by spells. Excess aether is siphoned off into the realms of the gods and used to shore up and stabilize creation.

I'd think that any concentration of magical energy would have the potential to create a soul. Most of these souls would be minor (on the level of plants), but continuing to use or expose a soul to magic would strengthen and eventually awaken the soul as an intelligent individual. What about the quill a wizard uses to write spells into his spellbook? Probably. A permanency spell--certainly. I'd guess that any place inhabited by habitual spell-casters would form at least a rudimentary intelligence (a genius loci of sorts). If a necromancer raised the same skeleton more than once (or kept one around for a while), I would expect it to develop some type of personality. Not the same as the one that originally inhabited it, but maybe sharing some of the traits (as the soul shapes the flesh, the flesh shapes the soul). Spontaneous development of undead or elementals would be a constant worry wherever large concentrations of aether existed.

Anti-magic fields I would expect to not destroy aether, but to inhibit the resonances needed to sustain magical effects. Things (spells, creatures, etc) that actually destroy aether are the closest things to EVIL (with a few exclamation marks) the setting has to offer.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Now, as for the original poster. It's your campaign, but you get to decide what 'sufficiently complex' magic is. A Permanence spell is 9th level, is THAT complex? How about animate object? I mean, that gets the motion going.

I should think that 'sufficiently complex' would involve ritual magic and the working of things that have multiple layers involved. A Mage School may become sentient simply because of the interweaving of protections, wards, divination, and pure magical essence that is released into the schools environment as a result of learning/casting spells.

A Permanently animated horse statue may become sentient if the owner decides to give it some ability to act on its own, sufficiently glamours it, etc.

But I don't think a Sword +5 of Hoobajoob Slaying should be sentient merely by the strength of its enchantment.

You know what I think *would* have a disturbing chance of becoming sentient? Spellbooks.

I agree about spellbooks. Maybe even the quills used (if the same one is used repeatedly). I'm leaning toward the idea that all permanent items (or permanent spells) would be sentient to one degree or another. By permanent I mean things that either do not have charges or whose charges refresh automatically over time (as this is 5th edition D&D). So yes, that Sword +5 of Hoobajoob Slaying would have at least some degree of intelligence. Probably focused sharply (pun intended) on Hoobajoob slaying. I could see it grumbling (in a way someone sensitive to that might hear) if its user doesn't take care of it, or if it hasn't slayed a Hoobajoob recently.

Certainly something like a teleportation circle would almost certainly become sentient. Using one would be fraught with danger--what if it didn't like the destination? or maybe didn't like the color of your shirt?

[Lleban]

Hmm what about self buffs say if you poly-morphed yourself would a new soul eventually develop within your own soul...like a parasite. Or would repeated human alteration fundamentally alter your own soul.

[Everyl]

How much ability to act and communicate does a sentient inanimate object have in this setting? Sentient magic items in D&D generally have some powers that are controlled by the sentience rather than the wielder, as well as some capacity to communicate telepathically/empathically/verbally. Would a magician's spellbook be able to talk? Could his quill refuse to write? Would a magic teleportation circle be able to refuse to function for some people, or change its own destination? There is a lot of potential for great and powerful magics to be seen as unreliable if the souls they unavoidably spawn might decide they disagree with the casters' intentions and either refuse to function or intentionally malfunction.

[PhoenixPhyre]

How much ability to act and communicate does a sentient inanimate object have in this setting? Sentient magic items in D&D generally have some powers that are controlled by the sentience rather than the wielder, as well as some capacity to communicate telepathically/empathically/verbally. Would a magician's spellbook be able to talk? Could his quill refuse to write? Would a magic teleportation circle be able to refuse to function for some people, or change its own destination? There is a lot of potential for great and powerful magics to be seen as unreliable if the souls they unavoidably spawn might decide they disagree with the casters' intentions and either refuse to function or intentionally malfunction.

Thinking about it, I've decided to systematize this a bit more. Categories follow (spoilers for length)
These are common, mundane items. They think no thoughts, have no emotions, take no actions.
These items, while not intentionally enchanted, have been exposed to significant quantities of aether. This can happen over a long duration of low exposure (a tool used by generations of master craftsmen) or due to a high density of aether for a short duration (the rocks around mage duel, a wizard’s favorite quill).

Items with incidental awareness possess limited senses—especially about what they themselves are undergoing. A sword, for example, would know when it is being sharpened or what it is being used to cut. An incidentally-aware building would know about damage to its structure or creatures moving within it (but probably not more than size and location).

Incidentally-aware items have emotions but not thoughts. They experience happiness when used for their “intended” purpose, pain when damaged, etc. They can form bonds with individuals who use them frequently or treat them well (repairs, maintenance, etc).

These types of items have a limited ability to use ambient aether to maintain and repair themselves. A building, for example, can better resist the effects of weather or attacks. A sword would retain sharpness for longer or resist breakage.

An object (or piece of terrain, or spell, etc) that experiences a concentrated aetheric environment can awaken, forming a sentient soul. All awakened objects can grow and develop. They also have a sense of identity. A self. Beyond that, the level of awareness and ability to influence the environment varies. Items tend to fit into one of the following categories:
These objects can sense what is happening within a limited radius. For example, a sword of foo slaying would be able to sense the presence of foo within a small radius (normally about 100 feet). An awakened building might be able to sense the intent as well as the identity of people on its grounds.

These items lack the direct ability to influence their surroundings—they cannot move or otherwise act directly. If they are in contact or bonded to a creature, they can influence the actions of the wielder. A sword, for example, might be able to strike more true. A building could deny entrance to someone with ill intent or warn its owner of damage or hostile intent on its grounds.

Such items can also repair and maintain themselves to a much larger degree. Awakened buildings can repair cracks and resist significant damage. They cannot replace missing materials. It is as if they are under the effects of a mending spell of unlimited size but range of self.

The thoughts of these creatures can be sensed by appropriately trained individuals or by those bonded to the items. They tend to have simple desires that focus on their purpose as an item.

These objects are essentially creatures. Examples would include the undead, objects animated by spells, arcane constructs and living armors, etc. They have their own ideas, simple personalities (growing more complex with experience and duration), their own goals, etc. Unless kept under magical compulsion, they will act independently. They can take actions not entirely limited by their physical composition—a building could open and shut its doors, change walls around, etc. A skeleton (missing the muscles and tendons) can move and fight, etc.

Newly created undead or newly animated objects have about the same intelligence as a dog and can obey simple commands. Within 24 hours of continuous existence, their intelligence starts rising: creatures using the remains of living things cap out at about what their base components did while living, while animated objects hit a cap based (essentially) on their size. Communications with these objects depends on their structure—things with mouths gain the ability to speak after a few months of animation (with the speech limited by their mouth structure). Things without mouths generally gain a limited degree of telepathy. Particularly powerful objects (buildings, mountains, etc.) may learn to create an avatar of their consciousness to interact with the mortal world directly.


Spells can generate souls as well. The nature and power of the soul depends on the intensity, duration, and complexity of the spells that generated them. Spells anchored on an object (magic mouth, etc.) stay anchored but gain a personality and desires of their own. Some examples follow:

A magic mouth spell is anchored on a wall in a tavern and maintained for a long time (months). It slowly gains a personality and intelligence not unlike that of a trained parrot—it starts shouting vulgarities or rude words at inopportune moments. It wants attention.
A scrying spell is used repeatedly by a perverted peeping-tom mage. Once it awakens, it shows the mage titillating images unless forced to show something else (and will always choose the vantage point to look up skirts or down blouses if possible). This happens occasionally even when the mage is not actively concentrating on scrying.
A continual flame spell might develop into a minor fire elemental.




Hmm what about self buffs say if you poly-morphed yourself would a new soul eventually develop within your own soul...like a parasite. Or would repeated human alteration fundamentally alter your own soul.
I would expect these self-anchored spells to start altering the user's soul more than anything. Possibly repeatedly casting mage armor might start to harden your own skin, while repeated polymorphing (or wild-shaping) could cause you to take on aspects of the beast even while not shifted.

[Gwaednerth]

Hmm what about self buffs say if you poly-morphed yourself would a new soul eventually develop within your own soul...like a parasite. Or would repeated human alteration fundamentally alter your own soul.

That gets into some cool Ursula LeGuinn/Wizard of Earthsea stuff, where polymorphing is dangerous because it fundamentally alters who you are if you do too much.

[Landis963]

Have you read the book Warbreaker , by any chance? There's a certain Sword of Evil Slaying in there which fits very nicely into this world you're making.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Have you read the book Warbreaker , by any chance? There's a certain Sword of Evil Slaying in there which fits very nicely into this world you're making.

Who, me? Steal ideas? I never...[hurriedly hides notes]. I'll admit, I've taken inspiration from worse places. It's a good book and a good author.