PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next A New Bladelock - Pact of the Blade Modifications (PEACH)



Sicarius Victis
2016-10-21, 04:50 PM
Recently, I happened to come across this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503557-Fixing-BladeLocks-via-Balancing) thread, discussing the balance of a Bladelock as a melee combatant. It was generally agreed that Pact of the Blade was a trap option. So I decided, I'd try to come up with a new version. This version is inspired by a few of the comments in the thread, as well as the Soulknife and a few other 3.PF classes.

Pact of the Blade
You can use your bonus action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose its appearance every time you summon it. Your pact weapon can be a one-handed weapon that does 1d8 damage and has either the Finesse or Versatile (1d10) property, or a two-handed weapon that does 1d12 damage. This damage can be bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing, chosen when the weapon is summoned. You may also reduce the damage die type by one or more to give it one additional weapon property for each die type reduction. If you give a weapon with Versatile additional properties, the Versatile die is also reduced by one step per additional property. Two-handed weapons may gain the Finesse and Reach properties, while one-handed weapons may gain the Light and Thrown (20/60), properties. These properties are also chosen each time it is summoned. In addition, a two-handed weapon may be summoned with the Heavy property at no additional cost.
Your pact weapon disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you use this feature again, if you dismiss the weapon (no action required) or if you die.
You can enhance your pact weapons with the magical properties of one magic weapon, by performing a special ritual while holding the weapon. You can perform the ritual over the course of 8 hours, which you may perform during a long rest. The weapon loses any of its magical properties, which your pact weapon then gains the effects of. If your pact weapon is summoned in a form that would not allow certain properties (such as a bludgeoning vorpal weapon), your pact weapon does not gain those properties until it is summoned in a different form. Your pact weapon may only have the magical properties of one weapon at a time. If it is enhanced with the properties of a magic weapon while it already has the properties of another, the properties of the first weapon are lost.
In addition, any Pact Weapon you wield is considered to be an Arcane Focus for your spells.

Also working on Invocations for the Bladelock.

Invocations
Note: All of these Invocations require Pact of the Blade as prerequisites. (Optional: a warlock with this modified Blade Pact may not take any of the Eldritch Blast Invocations.)

Arcane Channeling
Prerequisite: 5th level
When you would make a spell attack, you may instead choose to make a melee weapon attack with your Pact Weapon. If your Pact Weapon has the Thrown property, you may instead throw your Pact Weapon at your target. The attack does your Pact Weapon's standard damage, and adds the effects of the spell in addition. If you would normally be able to make multiple spell attacks in one round, such as from Eldritch Blast, you may only make one, and the effects of all of the attacks are applied to the one attack, functioning as just a single attack. For all purposes of the spell, damage from your Pact Weapon using this feature is considered to be damage from the spell. (Optional addition, in an attempt to make TWF semi-worthwhile: If you are wielding two Pact Weapons, you may make an attack with the weapon you didn't use for this feature as a bonus action. If you would make multiple spell attacks this round, you may divide those attacks between your two weapons however you choose.)

And thus, we have Arcane Channeling. Intended to be a separate option from Thirsting Blade for people who want a slightly more "Magic-enhanced melee attacks" feel, in addition to making spells such as Vampiric Touch a bit more useful. More TWF stuff as well, because it really needs the boosts. And if it isn't clear, if you use a spell that requires multiple attacks in a round, such as EB, you can divide those attacks between your two TWF weapon attacks. Thus, a 5th-level Bladelock with this can make two weapon attacks, and channel one EB blast through each attack.

Armour of Winter's Grasp
Prerequisite: Armour of Agathys spell, 7(?)th level
Any Armour of Agathys spell you cast continues for the full duration of the spell, whether or not you still have any temporary hit points from the casting of the spell. In addition, whenever you would gain temporary hit points while under the effects of Armour of Agathys, you may choose to instead regain a number of expended temporary hit points gained from Armour of Agathys equal to the amount of temporary hit points you would have gained then. Your temporary hit points may never equal more than the maximum you would gain just from casting Armour of Agathys.
Whenever you cast Armour of Agathys, you may choose for it to deal fire, lightning, thunder, acid, or poison damage instead of cold damage.

In case it's unclear, this Invocation provides two benefits:
1. When you use Armour of Agathys, its effects continue even if you run out of Temporary HP. This allows the secondary benefit to be somewhat more useful.
2. When you gain THP while benefitting from Armour of Agathys, those THP can be used to "refill" the ones you gained from Armour of Agathys.
It also lets you change the cold damage to another semi-elemental damage type, just for fun.
This Invocation is intended to make Bladelock slightly less squishy,

Lifedrinker (Alternate)
Prerequisite: 7(?)th level
Whenever you deal damage to an opponent using your Pact Weapon, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier.

An alternate version of Lifedrinker, focused around being slightly more tanky instead of doing a bit more damage. Has a lower level requirement because by 11th level, that much THP isn't going to be that useful. Intended to work with Armour of Winter's Grasp.

Twin Blades
When you summon your Pact Weapon, you may summon two Weapons, one in each hand, as your bonus action, provided that both Pact Weapons are summoned with the Light property. While wielding two Pact Weapons, you gain the benefits of the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style.
In addition, your Pact Weapon may possess one additional magical property. However, whatever magical properties you are bonded to, each property can only apply to one Weapon while your Weapons are formed.

This makes TWF a bit more useful for Bladelocks. In case the "magic weapon properties" part was unclear, it means that the Bladelock can have multiple magic weapon properties bonded, such as having two +1 properties bonded, and each of these bonded properties can be applied to a different Pact Weapon while the different Weapons are formed. Whether you have one or two properties bonded, however, you still may only apply one property to each Pact Weapon.

The Pact is still a WiP, as are the Invocations.

Submortimer
2016-10-21, 05:11 PM
I'm confused as to what this accomplishes? It is literally no better than the current Blade pacf, and it's not really doing anything unique.

Sicarius Victis
2016-10-21, 05:59 PM
I'm confused as to what this accomplishes? It is literally no better than the current Blade pacf, and it's not really doing anything unique.

At the moment, the base Pact is just intended to add a little more versatility to the weapons you use, and make Dex-based a slightly more viable option. The major changes will be in the form of Invocations. This part was just to see if the base Pact had any glaring issues.

DracoKnight
2016-10-22, 11:37 PM
I'm confused as to what this accomplishes? It is literally no better than the current Blade pacf, and it's not really doing anything unique.

This gives them the ability to summon their pact weapon as a bonus action, customize their pact weapon's features, and continue customizing them after they get a sweet magic weapon, so that no matter what loot your DM gives you, it fits with your build.

PapaQuackers
2016-10-23, 12:08 AM
I actually like it a lot, but I don't know if it addresses the lack of defensive options without heavy investment by the Bladelock. I think that's the really the main issue at hand.

Amnoriath
2016-10-23, 09:33 AM
continue customizing them after they get a sweet magic weapon, so that no matter what loot your DM gives you, it fits with your build.

The pact itself already allows this "You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. You can’t affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. The weapon ceases being your pact weapon if you die, if you perform the 1-hour ritual on a different weapon, or if you use a 1-hour ritual to break your bond to it. The weapon appears at your feet if it is in the extradimensional space when the bond breaks."(PHB, 198)

Amnoriath
2016-10-23, 09:40 AM
Recently, I happened to come across this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503557-Fixing-BladeLocks-via-Balancing) thread, discussing the balance of a Bladelock as a melee combatant. It was generally agreed that Pact of the Blade was a trap option. So I decided, I'd try to come up with a new version. This version is inspired by a few of the comments in the thread, as well as the Soulknife and a few other 3.PF classes.


It is only a trap option in the sense that as a melee combatant it doesn't have the right saves or likely the ability score spread to keep it mobile. If feats are allowed which is likely than yes the lack of making Strength based builds viable due diminish against other heavy weapon users but if they aren't they do have a damage edge and certain builds can make Strength based Warlock's viable.

Sicarius Victis
2016-10-23, 09:16 PM
The pact itself already allows this "You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. You can’t affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. The weapon ceases being your pact weapon if you die, if you perform the 1-hour ritual on a different weapon, or if you use a 1-hour ritual to break your bond to it. The weapon appears at your feet if it is in the extradimensional space when the bond breaks."(PHB, 198)

By "continue customizing" it means that once they have a bonded magic weapon, they aren't just limited to using that specific weapon.

Example: Warlock bonds a +1 magic longsword. With the official Blade Pact, their Pact Weapon can only take the shape of that longsword. With this one, their weapon can still take whatever shape it would have originally, and can still use whatever magic enchantment was bonded to the Warlock, as long as that enchantment is applicable.


It is only a trap option in the sense that as a melee combatant it doesn't have the right saves or likely the ability score spread to keep it mobile. If feats are allowed which is likely than yes the lack of making Strength based builds viable due diminish against other heavy weapon users but if they aren't they do have a damage edge and certain builds can make Strength based Warlock's viable.

I never said that I feel that it's a trap option. I said that it was generally agreed to be a trap option. Thus, I'm creating a modified version of the base Pact, as well as a few additional Invocations, for those people who feel that the Blade Pact is a trap option. If you don't feel that it is a trap option, then you have no need for my homebrew.

This also is not the thread for an argument about whether or not it is a trap option. If you wish to discuss this, take it up in your own thread and please don't clutter up mine.

Amnoriath
2016-10-23, 09:36 PM
By "continue customizing" it means that once they have a bonded magic weapon, they aren't just limited to using that specific weapon.

Example: Warlock bonds a +1 magic longsword. With the official Blade Pact, their Pact Weapon can only take the shape of that longsword. With this one, their weapon can still take whatever shape it would have originally, and can still use whatever magic enchantment was bonded to the Warlock, as long as that enchantment is applicable.



I never said that I feel that it's a trap option. I said that it was generally agreed to be a trap option. Thus, I'm creating a modified version of the base Pact, as well as a few additional Invocations, for those people who feel that the Blade Pact is a trap option. If you don't feel that it is a trap option, then you have no need for my homebrew.

This also is not the thread for an argument about whether or not it is a trap option. If you wish to discuss this, take it up in your own thread and please don't clutter up mine.
1. Dracoknight said this so let him answer it and while I understand the benefits ultimately you are largely ruling out Strength based options all together because this weapon can't get the heavy property.
2. And my point is to bring up the issues so that maybe you think of invocations to address those issues as well as think about what would be appropriate balance wise. The ideas you put out do little to address it. Just because I said there are certain builds to avoid this doesn't I don't believe it doesn't have issues. This isn't an attack against your thread because you have a lot to put out yet.

Sicarius Victis
2016-10-23, 10:00 PM
1. Dracoknight said this so let him answer it

Sorry. You're right, I shouldn't have butted in.


and while I understand the benefits ultimately you are largely ruling out Strength based options all together because this weapon can't get the heavy property.

I didn't even think of that. Thanks for bringing it up.


2. And my point is to bring up the issues so that maybe you think of invocations to address those issues as well as think about what would be appropriate balance wise.

That's a good point, and I didn't even think of that at the time I posted the comment. I suppose I'm just a bit too fast to get defensive, and I apologize if I was rude.


The ideas you put out do little to address it. Just because I said there are certain builds to avoid this doesn't I don't believe it doesn't have issues. This isn't an attack against your thread because you have a lot to put out yet.

That's true, I don't have much yet. I do have a few more thoughts and I'll try to get them typed out soon.

All in all, I apologize for responding the way I did. I tend to instinctively expect people to be jerks, and I'm letting it get into how I deal with people. It's a bad habit, and I'm trying to work past it. Either way, my apologies.

DracoKnight
2016-10-23, 10:12 PM
1. Dracoknight said this so let him answer it and while I understand the benefits ultimately you are largely ruling out Strength based options all together because this weapon can't get the heavy property.

He understood perfectly what I meant, and he answered you. No need to be rude.

Sicarius Victis
2016-10-23, 10:56 PM
Changes: Base Pact has been modified, new Invocations have been added. Everything is still WIP, though.

zeek0
2016-10-24, 01:01 AM
First, I like the *option* of simply transferring a magical weapon's effects to the pact weapon; it means that you have a great amount of flexibility and don't need to change your play style.

I don't think you need the modular system of creating your own weapon. Not only does it allow silly things (a dagger that deals the damage of a longsword if swung with two hands), but it also is unnecessary. Simply allow them to summon any martial or simple weapon and give them proficiency with it - new weapons can be imagined to fill in the gaps.

I'm wary of Arcane Channeling, only because it essentially adds 1d8/1d12 to any spell. I think it is bonus enough that the character can essentially ignore their casting stat for ranged spell attacks and use them at melee range; adding additional damage isn't quite necessary.

The armor invocation is great, and balanced. It could be words differently; perhaps I'll work something up later when I have my books in front of me.

The life drinker alternative is actually remarkably powerful if you also get 2 attacks each round. You essentially keep your AoA up, while also gaining ~8 temporary HP per round. This certainly is extraordinary at level 7, transforming the character into a veritable tank. I'm not sure that its unbalanced, just that its more powerful than you imagine.

Twin blades seem fine. But I just imagined a concern: what if you take the magical effect from a couple two-handed weapons? I'll look at proper examples after I'm home, but I imagine that a THW is designed to have a more powerful ability than a one-handed weapon.

Good work!

Sicarius Victis
2016-10-24, 01:45 AM
First, I like the *option* of simply transferring a magical weapon's effects to the pact weapon; it means that you have a great amount of flexibility and don't need to change your play style.

Yeah, one of my personal dislikes about 5e as a system is its handling of magic items. While in earlier editions players could actually get a measue of control over what items they had, in 5e they're basically limited to what the DM is kind enough to give them. This change is mostly inspired by that thought.


I don't think you need the modular system of creating your own weapon. Not only does it allow silly things (a dagger that deals the damage of a longsword if swung with two hands), but it also is unnecessary. Simply allow them to summon any martial or simple weapon and give them proficiency with it - new weapons can be imagined to fill in the gaps.

Personally, I like the modular system. It allows more control over what weapons and fighting styles you use, rather than, again, having to rely on the DM to say "yes" to any specific weapon. I mean, you still have to get them to say "yes" to this, but this is only one thing, rather than the variety of homebrew weapons that you'd have to do to get anywhere near this versatility.


I'm wary of Arcane Channeling, only because it essentially adds 1d8/1d12 to any spell. I think it is bonus enough that the character can essentially ignore their casting stat for ranged spell attacks and use them at melee range; adding additional damage isn't quite necessary.

I'm unsure of this one as well. I basically see it as a trade-off between Thirsting Blade+Alternative Lifedrinker for tanking and this for damage. It's an alright theory, just might not work too well in practice.
Edit: And besides, you're going to want a decent CHA to make use of a lot of Warlock things anyways


The armor invocation is great, and balanced. It could be words differently; perhaps I'll work something up later when I have my books in front of me.

Thanks. This felt like the best way to give the Bladelock decent defense while still making it somewhat resource-dependent so that it's not unbalanced. It also makes Fiendish Vigour into an almost-decent use of an Invocation slot.


The life drinker alternative is actually remarkably powerful if you also get 2 attacks each round. You essentially keep your AoA up, while also gaining ~8 temporary HP per round. This certainly is extraordinary at level 7, transforming the character into a veritable tank. I'm not sure that its unbalanced, just that its more powerful than you imagine.

It gets you a bit of THP, but not enough to take more than one small hit, even at lower levels. It's basically there to buff up Armour of Winter's Grasp. Even with Winter's Grasp, it would likely prevent less damage than a well-used Uncanny Dodge or similar feature, at the cost of 2 Invocations and a spell slot.


Twin blades seem fine. But I just imagined a concern: what if you take the magical effect from a couple two-handed weapons? I'll look at proper examples after I'm home, but I imagine that a THW is designed to have a more powerful ability than a one-handed weapon.

AFAIK there aren't magic properties that are meant for 2-handed weapons, but if there are I'll just have to make sure to clarify the whole "Weapons can only use properties that are appropriate to their type" things.


Good work!

Thanks! This is one that I'm actually somewhat proud of.

JNAProductions
2017-04-24, 09:18 AM
1d10 finesse two-hander... Hm. Just be aware of the Rogue Sneak Attack/any martial class GWF Style interaction, but considering how much dipping is required, probably not a huge issue.

No TWF option? Seems odd. Wait, just noticed that it's an invocation. Okay.

Arcane Channeling seems fine-although question, do they still get, say, a Dexterity save to avoid damage? Also, it seems you intended there to be a TWF option, but as written, there is none.

WHOA! That is kinda ridiculous. Because, see, it doesn't actually make you any more durable-you don't gain any extra THP from this feature. But what it DOES do is, starting from 9th level, let you almost constantly deal 25 damage in retaliation. That's some ridiculous DPR increase. Combine with Fiendlock for THP on kills and False Life... Yeah, this one needs work. And I"m not 100% sure how to fix it.

New Lifedrinker would be fine, were it not for Armour of Winter's Grasp. That increases your DPR by 20 when you get it, 25 in two levels. So, at level 11, a Paladin does 2 attacks, at a +9 bonus, for 2d8+5 damage apiece, a Fighter does 3 attacks, at a +9 bonus, for 1d8+7 apiece, and your Warlock is doing two attacks, at a +9 bonus, for 1d6+5 apiece (assuming they took TWF, Armour of Winter's Grasp, and Lifedrinker). The recommended AC for CR 11 is 17, so they hit on 8s, for a 65% accuracy rate. Paladin does 18.5 DPR, Fighter does 22.425 DPR, and your Warlock does 11.05 DPR from their weapons. But, since they have a 87.75% chance of landing at least one hit that gives THP, that increases their DPR by 21.94, for a total of 32.99. Half again that of a fighter, almost. And they're still a full caster, who blew only a single spell slot on this! And, if the enemy has many weak attacks (they'd have to be REALLY weak, but it is possible) that can potentially increase. Although a quick check of my Monster Manual doesn't reveal any monsters that won't knock out the 3 THP in one blow, excepting REALLY low CR monsters, in which case the 25 damage is vast overkill. Still-DPR is an issue.

Twin Blades, I think, should allow you to double up on magic items and give the TWF Style, but TWF itself should not require an invocation.

Overall, I like it-especially the base changes. It's just that the Armour of Winter's Grasp is too powerful.

Oh, wait, I forgot about Thirsting Blade. At level 12, when you snag enough invocations to have 3 attacks with TWF, your DPR jumps to 16.575 base (which is fine) but with Armour of Winter's Grasp, that adds 23.93 DPR, for over 40 DPR, whereas the Fighter and Paladin have not improved.

Also, since you probably put that ASI in Charisma, you now have 18, giving you 4 THP per hit. If all 3 hit (27.46% chance) that's 12 THP, which... Actually has a positively minuscule chance of not being knocked out in one hit. I checked an Erinyes, and they have around a 1% chance of doing 11 or less damage in one hit. So it's likely to only ever do 25 damage per round. Which is still too much.

Sicarius Victis
2017-04-29, 04:32 PM
In all honesty, I'd completely forgotten about this project.

Arcane Channeling: The optional addition, written in brackets, does allow for TWF benefits, allowing you to make an additional attack and dividing any extra attacks from EB or whichever between the two. And it doesn't involve a DEX save, as it currently only functions with spells that require attack rolls.

Armour of Winter's Grasp: It actually does make them more durable, as it gives them a refillable THP buffer, that lasts for up to an hour. Honestly, that part's basically like an Abjurer. The retaliatory damage part, though, I agree could likely be too much. If Armour of Winter's Grasp lowered the damage, or dropped it entirely, do you believe it would be more balanced?

TWF: Perhaps if I made dual-wielding a standard thing for the Boon, but have an Invocation that gives a single Fighting Style, as well as a benefit based off of that style? For example, TWF would give the ability to bond two magic weapons, while Protection would allow you to bond a shield, and Dueling might give a small benefit to spellcasting when you have a free hand, or something. How does that sound?

Thanks for the feedback!