Structure of an orcoid/goblinoid military/nation.

[tectonix26]

Hey guys,
DM here with way too many varied notes and unfilled ideas for a homebrew campaign I have been running that takes place in an offshoot nation from Faerun. One of said half formed ideas is that of an area that has been claimed and run with a varying degree of unity by the races of bugbear, goblin, hobgoblin, orc etc. As the campaign originated geographically in Faerun, I am still using all of the canon and creatures from forgotten realms.
So taken that as a given, how would you structure a LoTR/WFB style army or military nation? As in, given the different subraces of ork and goblin, which do you suppose would make the higher caste, possible alliances with other creature (Drow, svirnefblim etc), power structure, military proficiency, possibly monters or animals that have been trained. (Take the trolls in Lotr or squigs, wolves and arachnoroks in warhammer: fantasy battles).

So if you guy shave ever ran anything of the sort, care to post what works and what doesn't, hoe diplomatic were your orcs, did they just subjugate the goblins and hobgoblins? were the bugbears okay with being shock troops or did they need "convincing"?

Any advice or prior experience would be appreciated, thanks.

[Sigreid]

I would probably steal the historical mongol horde. Humanoid nomadic and semi-nomadic tribes bound by traditional alliances that allow them to bad together to defend a vast steppe and to raid and loot the civilizations around them.

[tectonix26]

As good as inspiration for a mongol horde is, the current situation is moreso of a stalemate of border conflicts right now wheras the Mongolians were a unified nation under a single monarch; something I have difficulty believing orcs are capable of achieving on a continental scale.

There will be units and regions similar, given that their land is tundra/arctic so the southern regions would make use of wolves and wargs as light goblin cavalry, further north I'm thinking they might be able to "train" bears and larger creatures (possibly even a rhemoraz or two, (Picture how the orcs under Azag utilized were-worms in the battle of five armies).

[ClintACK]

In my head, Orcs -- along with Ogres and Ogrillons (half-orc half-ogres) -- are a "barbarian horde" threat. And they don't get along with goblinoids at all.

In my head, Hobgoblins are a highly organized militaristic race -- who use Goblins as scouts/skirmishers and Bugbears as bruisers/thugs. And Warg cavalry.

[tectonix26]

Hmmm so you think an alliance between them would be unlikely?

[sigurd]

"In my head, Orcs -- along with Ogres and Ogrillons (half-orc half-ogres) -- are a "barbarian horde" threat. And they don't get along with goblinoids at all.

In my head, Hobgoblins are a highly organized militaristic race -- who use Goblins as scouts/skirmishers and Bugbears as bruisers/thugs. And Warg cavalry."



^ My take as well.

Hobgoblins are like Roman Legionaries. Very ordered with huge personal burdens of duty and hierarchy. Goblins have been subjugated into a slave state.
Bugbears are sort of outsiders. They are big and really too good at what they do to benefit from sharing. They want wealth and attention.

Orcs, ogres, and trolls are barbarians and vikings. Their order breaks down faster and they really excel at independent survival because they never expect any system to be more important than they are individually.


You could make them work together but it would be stormy and not long lasting with any particular Orc or Goblin band. Think of the Goblins and Orcs as Roman Auxiliaries. Useful and offensive (shock troups, scouts and muscle) but hard to bring perminantly into the great empire.

my .02

S

[Hrugner]

The most useful way I've managed this sort of group was with a herding organization rather than an organized war party. Orcs were willing to just rampantly slaughter as long as they were armed and fed. Goblins followed the orcs and looted what the orcs left, killed stragglers and tended to stay behind and occupy deserter enemy cities and camps till they'd eaten or stolen everything of value, then set what wasn't valuable on fire. Bugbears drove the orcs by trading them the food and arms they needed and facilitating the exchange of goods between the goblin looters and the orc horde. Bugbears would also guide the disorganized orcs by burning camps so the orcs thought they should look elsewhere for victims. Hobgoblins worked with the bugbears to burn those camps, collapse bridges and set up ambushes in order to corral survivors. They'd take slaves by ambushing refugees and lead them back to the bugbear leadership. They acted as priests and assassins as well.

The human slaves were sold to other stranger creatures. They were used as payment for ogre magi, rakshasa, illithid and a few other things that may want a human soul, human brain, or just to torture and eat something smart enough to know what was happening. The slave taking hobgoblins and the straggler hunting goblins would occasionally get into conflicts.

The goblin role meant they were mixed in with the other groups often, but also employed larger beasts of burden to haul stolen goods. They'd also bring along women and children as their brief stay in those cities was an opportunity to bread and expand. They were also the most likely to become stagnant and just stay in a city or begin trading goods with other groups, even enemies of the army they were, in theory, part of.

It's a pretty lose setup, but gives you enough to go on for building encounters, and determining what should go where.

[Cybren]

As good as inspiration for a mongol horde is, the current situation is moreso of a stalemate of border conflicts right now wheras the Mongolians were a unified nation under a single monarch; something I have difficulty believing orcs are capable of achieving on a continental scale.

The Mongols and other steppe nomads (like the xiongnu, turks, scythians, huns, etc) were occasionally powerful states ruled by single figures, but far more commonly they were groups of rival tribes with their own cultural takes. Even at its height, the sheer vastness of the Mongol empire necessitated a large degree of decentralization, with individual khans being de facto independent even while de jure loyal to the great khan.

Anyway, I once ran a brief 4E game where the story concerned a barony that had been given to a group of hobgoblin mercenaries as payment, which they ruled as some real rude dudez, basically think the Belgian Congo, but they were structurally part of a feudal system, so their own governmental structure never came into play

[sigurd]

Try to imagine feeding and discipline that doesn't involve your army eating each other!

[Stan]

The Huns or Mongols when they were in conquest mode would be a good example. The Huns are especially interesting to compare to a nation with multiple species as they were a federation of allied and conquered groups. Their horse-dependent lifestyle made them good warriors. But normally, they spent most of their time herding and were unable forge large armies while also protecting their herds. Once they went full war mode, they were dependent on others for food. Conquered tribes tended livestock so they could fight - goblins or subjugated humans might serve this role.

The whole, loose structure was dependent on gifts and tribute flowing down. A leader or a tribe/group would pledge their loyalty for a large payment, which they would then use to gain loyalty of those under them. Because of this, a constant flow of money is required or the whole thing falls apart. For example, The Hun federation fell apart two years after Atilla's death when a couple of tribes backed out of the deal. Within a couple of years, a huge, scary empire was nothing more than a scattering of tribes who had gone back to herding.

It's not all about conquest. At times, the Huns were content to collect tribute and hire out as mercenaries to keep the money flowing with less effort. They were also less barbaric than you might think. There is an account of a Roman visiting the Hun court; he complained that he had to speak in Latin as hardly any of the barbarians knew Greek (this was 5th century and eastern empire so Greek would be the main fancy talk).

[Regitnui]

Eberron has Darguun, a resurgence of the goblinoid empire that dominate the continent before humans. It's run by hobgoblins, served by goblins and defended by bugbears.

[Laurefindel]

Forgetten realm's fluff differ from LoTR's fluff concerning orcs and goblins.

I LoTR, they all are but one race with regional variation. For example, you could use hobgoblins as a base for Saruman's Uruk-Hai, goblins for the weaker Misty Mountain orcs, bugbears for the sneaky Mordor orcs and D&D orcs for Minas Morgul's orcs. If you want to keep to FR creatures and fluff, orcs are unlikely to ally with goblinoids.

In both settings however, orcs need a very strong leader to keep them from fighting among themselves and keep them disciplined. FR has king Obould if you are looking for a Canon source character. But even with Sauron as their supreme leader, orcs frequently fought against each others in LoTR, often to the great benefit of the Fellowship, so in-fighting would likely remain a reality in a FR orcish nation, especially if they have to land to invade and expand.

[Corsair14]

Look up some old Greyhawk lore. The Grand Duchy of the Pomarj is a greenskin run nation.

[Naanomi]

My hobgoblins/goblins are kind of 'mongolian/hunnish'... small fairly organized clans occasionally gathered into larger nations and organized armies at great threat to everyone.

My orcs are more like... what mainland Europeans thought Vikings were like. Semi-nomadic, almost all resources gained from pillaging and tribute, constant in-fighting barely held in check by physically powerful leaders. Big mercenary streak too, willing to work in big numbers for people who can promise wealth and good raiding (which is why they are the backbone of every 'evil army')

Ogres are more civilized in my setting, living mostly in 'ogre enclaves' of other races' cities or as servant races to larger Giants... I acknowledge this is pretty setting specific though.

Trolls are more stone-age hunter/gatherer tribes; more monster than humanoid... powerful males and their harem live together, lone males are driven out (which is why they are often found solo or 'adopted' by other races looking for muscle)... almost no 'culture' except that which powerful post-mating-age females maintain

[Sigreid]

You could have it be essentially a hobgoblin empire. Goblins are used as scouts and light raiders/harassers. The hobgoblins use their superior organization to control orc tribes used as shock troops by providing them with superior (in orc terms) weapons, armor and food while promising them glory against their enemies.

Order of battle would be something like this:

Hobgoblins form phalinx and heavy calvary
Orcs, bugbears and ogres are given the glory of first blood. Inspiring fear in their enemies and on a good day breaking the enemy line. They would also be exceptional for holding in reserve to charge down the enemy flank when the hobgoblin regulars have them occupied.
Goblins are used as scouts and for surgical strikes. Riding on wolves would allow them to cover a lot of ground and hit supply lines, as well as start fires in enemy camps and flee. They would also have the job of trying to ensure that enemy casters can't get a long rest. This is part of what the fire setting is about.

[CaptainSarathai]

I would actually try a different sort of take on it. Orcs and Bugbears are not necessarily unable to negotiate, they just usually don't, and adventurers see Orcs and knee-jerk straight to murder-hobo.

So do a slow reveal. There are Orc attacks on the borders. With a little digging, the hierarchy on the other side comes into view;
The Orcs and allied Bugbears are living as scattered, satellite tribes around the edges of a growing Goblinoid nation.
The growth of the goblinoids is pushing the Orcs into civilized realms. The Goblins have even weaponized this, pushing and herding these varied Orc refugees into the civilized lands to weaken up their enemy and screen the growing threat of the goblin nation.

I see the Goblinoids in this situation as an early feudal system. The Hobgoblins have all the power, and form the military and military-government. Below them are the Goblins, who serve as the merchants, farmers, and regular citizens. Even the merchants are the lowest rung, below farmers and craftsmen.

Ogres form an uneasy alliance of mercenaries - the Hobgoblins respect their raw power and know that they would make fearsome adversaries, but powerful allies, so they bought them off. This also drives home their view of the Orcs - to them, Orcs are inferior specimens, barely even suitable for slave labor; much the way European imperialists viewed Africans during the colonial era.

So your players might initially view the Orcs as the tip of the invasion spear. But as the situation becomes clear, they might actually decide to use the Orcs to combat the growing Goblinoid threat beyond the border. Do they change their prejudice against Orcs enough to be truly friendly? Liberate their land for them or allow them citizenship in their own realms? Or do they militarize the "savages" and barely treat them any better than the Goblins had?