Critique a bard for me!

[WarKitty]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=980793

So the character is meant to be a blend between party face and buffer. Looks like the party has plenty of straight damage dealers so there should be little need for me to get into combat directly. Materials are somewhat limited. Bonus feat and equipment from forgotten realms provided (that's magical training and the assortment of scrolls and potions on that sheet).

[Pyromancer999]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=980793

So the character is meant to be a blend between party face and buffer. Looks like the party has plenty of straight damage dealers so there should be little need for me to get into combat directly. Materials are somewhat limited. Bonus feat and equipment from forgotten realms provided (that's magical training and the assortment of scrolls and potions on that sheet).

Noticing that you have 10 ranks in some skills, as a 6th level bard, your maximum is 9 ranks. Otherwise seems fine to me.

Some suggestions:

Is your DM allowing feats/ACFs from other campaign settings? If so, you might want to get Song of the Heart from Eberron, preferably using the Eberron Bard ACF to swap out Inspire Competence for Song of the Heart.

Also, may want to go Forestlord Half-Elf for the Half-Elf Bard 1 substitution level, and if you're not planning on using Bardic Knowledge much, may want to swap that out for Bardic Knack, which gives you effective ranks equal to 1/2 your Bard level. It does not let you qualify for prestige classes, but does let you use untrained, so you still sort of have Bardic Knowledge at half strength.

Any other advice would probably depend on where you're planning to go from here on this. Seems you could go either Lyric Thaumaturge -> Sublime Chord pretty easily from this point, or if you swapped out Perform(Poetry) for Perform Stringed Instruments, could slide pretty easy into Fochlucan Lyrist, with a way to learn Druidic and a level in Favored Soul. Although those are just two possible routes, and seems solid so far, although is a bit more of a buffer than a party face, but seems like that can manage.

[Extra Anchovies]

First thing that sticks out is that your saves aren't all that great. I'd swap the Cloak of Charisma for a Vest of Resistance 2.

Why do you have Magical Training?

[WarKitty]

Noticing that you have 10 ranks in some skills, as a 6th level bard, your maximum is 9 ranks. Otherwise seems fine to me.

Some suggestions:

Is your DM allowing feats/ACFs from other campaign settings? If so, you might want to get Song of the Heart from Eberron, preferably using the Eberron Bard ACF to swap out Inspire Competence for Song of the Heart.

Also, may want to go Forestlord Half-Elf for the Half-Elf Bard 1 substitution level, and if you're not planning on using Bardic Knowledge much, may want to swap that out for Bardic Knack, which gives you effective ranks equal to 1/2 your Bard level. It does not let you qualify for prestige classes, but does let you use untrained, so you still sort of have Bardic Knowledge at half strength.

You'll notice I'm using dragonfire inspiration. If I go half-elf I am no longer dragonblooded and can't use dragonfire inspiration without taking an extra feat. So I'd be effectively losing two feats to go half-elf.

[WarKitty]

First thing that sticks out is that your saves aren't all that great. I'd swap the Cloak of Charisma for a Vest of Resistance 2.

Why do you have Magical Training?

Our DM gave us a free regional feat and equipment. Magical training looked to be the most interesting and handy, especially as I don't think we really have a dedicated arcane caster.

[MeeposFire]

Noticing that you have 10 ranks in some skills, as a 6th level bard, your maximum is 9 ranks. Otherwise seems fine to me.

Some suggestions:

Is your DM allowing feats/ACFs from other campaign settings? If so, you might want to get Song of the Heart from Eberron, preferably using the Eberron Bard ACF to swap out Inspire Competence for Song of the Heart.

Also, may want to go Forestlord Half-Elf for the Half-Elf Bard 1 substitution level, and if you're not planning on using Bardic Knowledge much, may want to swap that out for Bardic Knack, which gives you effective ranks equal to 1/2 your Bard level. It does not let you qualify for prestige classes, but does let you use untrained, so you still sort of have Bardic Knowledge at half strength.

Any other advice would probably depend on where you're planning to go from here on this. Seems you could go either Lyric Thaumaturge -> Sublime Chord pretty easily from this point, or if you swapped out Perform(Poetry) for Perform Stringed Instruments, could slide pretty easy into Fochlucan Lyrist, with a way to learn Druidic and a level in Favored Soul. Although those are just two possible routes, and seems solid so far, although is a bit more of a buffer than a party face, but seems like that can manage.

Unless you get inspire competence somewhere else you can't trade that for song of the heart because song of the heart requires song of competence as a prerequisite.

[Keld Denar]

Silverbrow Human isn't the only dragonblooded race. Forestlord Half-elf is the equivalent. That would open up the Half-elf Bard sub level.

An alternative would be the dragonblooded halfling. You can combine that with Strongheart Halfling for the bonus feat, and you'd get a +3 to hit with a sling (+1 racial, +1 size, +1 from +2 dex). That would help you land your DFI buffed attacks for more damage. The size change from medium sling to small sling is 1d4 to 1d3, so no real big loss in damage there, esp compared to the +4d6 DFI damage you'll be doing.

[Pyromancer999]

You'll notice I'm using dragonfire inspiration. If I go half-elf I am no longer dragonblooded and can't use dragonfire inspiration without taking an extra feat. So I'd be effectively losing two feats to go half-elf.

I suggested Forestlord Half Elf for the Dragonblood subtype and substitution level.


Unless you get inspire competence somewhere else you can't trade that for song of the heart because song of the heart requires song of competence as a prerequisite.

....That is true! Can be swapped out later though, or just taken as a feat later.



An alternative would be the dragonblooded halfling. You can combine that with Strongheart Halfling for the bonus feat, and you'd get a +3 to hit with a sling (+1 racial, +1 size, +1 from +2 dex). That would help you land your DFI buffed attacks for more damage. The size change from medium sling to small sling is 1d4 to 1d3, so no real big loss in damage there, esp compared to the +4d6 DFI damage you'll be doing.

Glimmerskin Halfling states that the PHB Halfling is the base for that, not any Halfling(If my memory serves me correctly). In that case, you still lose the bonus feat, but that combo does work otherwise.

[WarKitty]

I suggested Forestlord Half Elf for the Dragonblood subtype and substitution level.

That makes more sense. I thought you were a little better at D&D than to lose my DFI! Was a bit confused there.

I looked at bardic knack but am still debating on that one. I do like my knowledges and it looks like

Song of the heart looks nice but I'm not sure it's worth one of the feats I have on there right now, especially since I'm doubling as a skillmonkey.

[Pyromancer999]

That makes more sense. I thought you were a little better at D&D than to lose my DFI! Was a bit confused there.


Yeah, I can see how the Forestlord bit could have been missed at first glance. Apologies about that.


I looked at bardic knack but am still debating on that one. I do like my knowledges and it looks like

Song of the heart looks nice but I'm not sure it's worth one of the feats I have on there right now, especially since I'm doubling as a skillmonkey.

Given it turns out I was wrong on being able to swap it out, Song of the Heart seems like it would be a better consideration for a future feat/swap than at your current level.

As for Bardic Knack, it's best for a Bard that is expecting to concentrate on maxing out a few skills, but could use more than 1-2 ranks in others. You do have a good Int, so it's not strictly necessary, but could be good for being a Skillmonkey, although also depends on how much Bard you plan to have in your build.

[WarKitty]

Yeah, I can see how the Forestlord bit could have been missed at first glance. Apologies about that.


Given it turns out I was wrong on being able to swap it out, Song of the Heart seems like it would be a better consideration for a future feat/swap than at your current level.

As for Bardic Knack, it's best for a Bard that is expecting to concentrate on maxing out a few skills, but could use more than 1-2 ranks in others. You do have a good Int, so it's not strictly necessary, but could be good for being a Skillmonkey, although also depends on how much Bard you plan to have in your build.

I've been posting at work too, so I'm a bit less able to figure out what things are. A lot of stuff is blocked on our work internet.

I'll certainly consider song of the heart for the future - I'm kind of winging it on where I go after this depending on final party composition and what we end up doing. Will probably make the decision between knowledge and knack once I see who else we end up with.

[MeeposFire]

Between a first level spell and song of the heart you can hand out a +3 to your entire party for an entire combat (or more really if you keep singing). If you add a masterwork horn you can get a +4 though it makes song stacking more difficult if you want to stack songs by singing 1 song, stopping, and singing a new song.

Even the +3 is a huge boost at those levels. I became the MVP of a group with that at level 3. In combat that is a huge buff that gets more powerful as you level (words of creation makes it stupid powerful but is only suggested if you absolutely need to boost everyone to the nines).

[Keld Denar]

Suggestion Song is difficult to use. You have to be Fascinating people already and the scope of what you can convince them to do is pretty limited, esp compared to how powerful Charm Person is. You could swap out the Suggestion Song for Songs of the Heart, that would work.

[Pyromancer999]

Suggestion Song is difficult to use. You have to be Fascinating people already and the scope of what you can convince them to do is pretty limited, esp compared to how powerful Charm Person is. You could swap out the Suggestion Song for Songs of the Heart, that would work.

That is true, although it's not bad for an out-of-combat trick. Also, Half-Elf Bard can swap out Suggestion for the ability to use Command by spending Bardic Music, either on a single enemy regardless, or all enemies if they're already Fascinated or affected by Soothing Voice(the countersong replacement you get at 1st level).

If Suggestion is swapped out though, swapping out Fascinate for Healing Hymn(boosts healing) or Inspire Awe(scare people) might be a good choice.

[WarKitty]

Looks like Eberron is not on the table at this point. I did swap out bardic knowledge for bardic knack and rearranged a few skills to account for that.

[Pyromancer999]

Looks like Eberron is not on the table at this point. I did swap out bardic knowledge for bardic knack and rearranged a few skills to account for that.

Looks good to me.

Although, when looking at it earlier, did not notice the downside of Bardic Knack when I mentioned it, which is that in order to use it with trained skills, you have to have 1 rank in them. So may or may or may not want to re-invest skill points if you do plan to stick to it to use any trained skills you want, like Knowledges. Apologies for not noticing that when looking at it earlier.

[WarKitty]

I managed to get party composition, so it looks like we will have multiple members able to cast lesser vigor. I maxed out a bunch of knowledges (and put a point in disable device so I can roll it).

[Pyromancer999]

I managed to get party composition, so it looks like we will have multiple members able to cast lesser vigor. I maxed out a bunch of knowledges (and put a point in disable device so I can roll it).

Looks good to me. Although if you want Bardic Knack to affect any Knowledges, can take a point or two off from a Knowledge to invest a little in other Knowledges that could come in handy, like Religion, Nature, or Dungeoneering, which should allow your Knowledges to cover all the kinds of monsters for identification.

[WarKitty]

Looks good to me. Although if you want Bardic Knack to affect any Knowledges, can take a point or two off from a Knowledge to invest a little in other Knowledges that could come in handy.

Eh, we have a druid and a cleric, so I'll let them handle nature and religion. That covers pretty much everything except dungeoneering.

[Pyromancer999]

Ah, good stuff then. May want to do 1 rank in Dungeoneering if you've got a spare point at a future level, though.

[stanprollyright]

OK, first question: is this point-buy? If so I'd take a few points out of Int and put them into Str and Dex. This isn't about combat stats or being less of a skillmonkey; the combat stats are just icing. You don't have anything that scales off of Int so there's going to be a point of diminishing returns. Off the cuff, by taking Int from 18 to 16 you could have something like 14 dex and 12 str, which loses you 1 skill point/level, but gives you +1-2 to half the skills in the game, which can save you a lot of skill ranks. Plus, ya know, fighting stuff.

Something else in the same vein is that if you're going to max out 4 knowledges and put 1 rank into all the skills you want for bardic knack anyway, it seems like you might as well keep bardic knowledge instead of bardic knack and redistribute those skill points. Again, this is just a bang for your buck thing.

Another thing with the knowledges: I find having them at all is most of the battle. Depends on your GM, obviously, but for anything other than identifying monster weaknesses I wouldn't expect DCs to be all THAT high. For IDing monsters, you can get the Collector of Stories skill trick. 2 ranks for +5 to ALL KNOWLEDGES for the purposes of identifying monsters.

While we're on the topic of knowledge skills, a good feat for later would be Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion. Turn those skills into combat buffs!

As a human and a skillmonkey, I'm surprised no one has recommended Able Learner. The biggest downside is you have to take it at first level, but it lets you only spend 1 skill point per rank of your cross-class skills. Depending on how much you cross-class, this might be worth it. Nymph's kiss is probably better, though.

Looking over your spell/scroll/wand selection, I noticed a depressing lack of Silent Image.

And where's your whip? All bards must carry a whip at all times. :p

[hector212121]

I'd suggest seeing if your gm will let you buy 'really well-made, quiet shoes' at the cost of a masterwork tool that gives +2 move silently. :smallbiggrin:

Also, you appear to have forgotten to pick up any clay jugs. I mean, how else are you going to collect reagents from all the monsters you slay? Just poke a hole in the dead body grab a rubber hose, stick it in, and siphon out the blood and stick it under the hole to try to get as much of it as you can. You know... magic item creation later on and stuff... or just selling it to a alchemist.

I mean, c'mon, all that gray ooze and stuff's gotta be worth SOMETHING.

Also, given that--being a bard without actual melee ability, you don't want to get up close, how about switching the longsword for a spear or something? Lets you take a AOO if something charges you, and you can make that AOO as a trip!

[Pyromancer999]

OK, first question: is this point-buy? If so I'd take a few points out of Int and put them into Str and Dex. This isn't about combat stats or being less of a skillmonkey; the combat stats are just icing. You don't have anything that scales off of Int so there's going to be a point of diminishing returns. Off the cuff, by taking Int from 18 to 16 you could have something like 14 dex and 12 str, which loses you 1 skill point/level, but gives you +1-2 to half the skills in the game, which can save you a lot of skill ranks. Plus, ya know, fighting stuff.


Not a bad suggestion, but it doesn't seem like the Bard is intended to go into combat. If it is point buy, a reduction for some more Dex would not be bad, with whatever is left over going to shore up some negative modifiers. The character does seem able to function for its intended purpose as-is, though.



Something else in the same vein is that if you're going to max out 4 knowledges and put 1 rank into all the skills you want for bardic knack anyway, it seems like you might as well keep bardic knowledge instead of bardic knack and redistribute those skill points. Again, this is just a bang for your buck thing.

Not necessarily. Bardic Knack gets you a load of virtual ranks in all skills you don't have ranks in, so you're definitely getting more effective ranks in the end. Also, Knowledge skills can be used to qualify for Prestige classes if that route is desired.



Another thing with the knowledges: I find having them at all is most of the battle. Depends on your GM, obviously, but for anything other than identifying monster weaknesses I wouldn't expect DCs to be all THAT high. For IDing monsters, you can get the Collector of Stories skill trick. 2 ranks for +5 to ALL KNOWLEDGES for the purposes of identifying monsters.


This would be another case for actual skill ranks. Unless a monster is fabled in story or myth, it's unlikely Bardic Knowledge will be able to identify it(and even then, may not identify key weaknesses. For the rest, you cannot identify a monster beyond an effective result of 10 without ranks in the actual Knowledge, no matter how high your modifiers to that check are.



While we're on the topic of knowledge skills, a good feat for later would be Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion. Turn those skills into combat buffs!


Agree this is good for a damage-focused character with Knowledge ranks. Not necessarily useful to a buffer/skillmonkey, although not bad for ranged attacks.



As a human and a skillmonkey, I'm surprised no one has recommended Able Learner. The biggest downside is you have to take it at first level, but it lets you only spend 1 skill point per rank of your cross-class skills. Depending on how much you cross-class, this might be worth it. Nymph's kiss is probably better, though.

Able Learner is really mostly good for builds that plan to multiclass a lot/into classes with very different skill lists and need it to reduce on the number of skill ranks spent on cross-class skills, or Chameleons. As far as one can tell, that is not intended for this character.


Looking over your spell/scroll/wand selection, I noticed a depressing lack of Silent Image.

It's not strictly necessary. Plus, depending on party composition, there may be others who can handle that. If one plans to make excessive use of it, it would probably be better to just learn it as a spell known.


And where's your whip? All bards must carry a whip at all times. :p

Not really? Granted, it is an exotic weapon proficienct, so that's cool, but is more for a finesse Bard.

QUOTE=hector212121;21330167]I'd suggest seeing if your gm will let you buy 'really well-made, quiet shoes' at the cost of a masterwork tool that gives +2 move silently. :smallbiggrin:
[/quote]

Good suggestion! Same thing for all other skills that one would like to boost.



Also, given that--being a bard without actual melee ability, you don't want to get up close, how about switching the longsword for a spear or something? Lets you take a AOO if something charges you, and you can make that AOO as a trip!

Can that be used in close range, though. Think it's a reach weapon that needs a foe to be at least 5-10 feet away, so wouldn't be the best for some good old-fashioned up-close & personal.

[WarKitty]

Keep in mind I'm sharing a party with a beguiler, so I felt no need to pick up any illusion spells myself. There's also several melee built characters, so there shouldn't be much need for me to be in combat myself.

[stanprollyright]

Not a bad suggestion, but it doesn't seem like the Bard is intended to go into combat. If it is point buy, a reduction for some more Dex would not be bad, with whatever is left over going to shore up some negative modifiers. The character does seem able to function for its intended purpose as-is, though.

Why does he have DFI, WoC, armor, weapons, and combat spells if he's not going into combat? I reject both the idea that Bard is an out-of-combat class, and the idea that there should be non-combat PCs in D&D. He should be able to use his own buffs once in a while, especially since even with bardic music he's never going to have the stamina of a full caster. All that being said, my suggestion was more about diminishing returns in point-buy.


Not necessarily. Bardic Knack gets you a load of virtual ranks in all skills you don't have ranks in, so you're definitely getting more effective ranks in the end. Also, Knowledge skills can be used to qualify for Prestige classes if that route is desired.

Fair enough, I forgot you need 13 ranks for Sublime Chord.


This would be another case for actual skill ranks. Unless a monster is fabled in story or myth, it's unlikely Bardic Knowledge will be able to identify it(and even then, may not identify key weaknesses. For the rest, you cannot identify a monster beyond an effective result of 10 without ranks in the actual Knowledge, no matter how high your modifiers to that check are.

Collector of Stories is good no matter which route you take. I recommend it both ways. And for the record, I've never had a DM refuse a bardic knowledge check in place of another knowledge skill. But if he's going to be a stickler about it, then you're right: 1 rank in each of the important knowledge skills+collector of stories is probably sufficient for anything bardic knowledge doesn't cover.


Agree this is good for a damage-focused character with Knowledge ranks. Not necessarily useful to a buffer/skillmonkey, although not bad for ranged attacks.

Again, I reject the idea of a pure out-of-combat character. I don't expect it to be that high on his priority list, but it's good feat for anyone who has that kind of knowledge repertoire and definitely worth considering.


Able Learner is really mostly good for builds that plan to multiclass a lot/into classes with very different skill lists and need it to reduce on the number of skill ranks spent on cross-class skills, or Chameleons. As far as one can tell, that is not intended for this character.

Pretty much. Thought I'd mention it anyway.


It's not strictly necessary. Plus, depending on party composition, there may be others who can handle that. If one plans to make excessive use of it, it would probably be better to just learn it as a spell known.

Silent Image strikes me as the quintessential Bard spell. It's the ultimate expression of form over function. 100% style, 0% substance. Ignored in favor of flashier spells by most, but in the hands of a creative player becomes a deadly and versatile weapon. Exactly like the class itself :D


Not really? Granted, it is an exotic weapon proficienct, so that's cool, but is more for a finesse Bard.

Kinda the same as above. Whip is just a fun flavorful thing you get for free, that no one else is going to have, guaranteed. Swing like Indiana Jones, tame lions, have S&M parties, keep your slaves in line, and trip/disarm at a distance (works great in conjunction with grease). Hell, with DFI and WoC you can actually do damage with the thing.

[WarKitty]

I think "not in combat" here means "not likely to be the direct damage dealer in combat" more than "not likely to be in combat at all." We have plenty of meatshields to be between me and the monsters - my job is to cover skills (especially social skills) and to buff up the party.

[stanprollyright]

Keep in mind I'm sharing a party with a beguiler, so I felt no need to pick up any illusion spells myself.

I see.


There's also several melee built characters, so there shouldn't be much need for me to be in combat myself.


I think "not in combat" here means "not likely to be the direct damage dealer in combat" more than "not likely to be in combat at all." We have plenty of meatshields to be between me and the monsters - my job is to cover skills (especially social skills) and to buff up the party.

Initiative, AC, and Ref saves are good for everyone, and with the bonuses to so many skills it partially makes up for the loss of skill points. Str penalties are annoying, as it governs a fair number of skills, base damage, maneuvers, and carrying capacity. You're going to use your shortbow more often than a wizard uses his crossbow, for instance. Your strength is in the versatility and synergy of your options. You're going to want more things to do for when you're low on spells, and more than 2 music effects at a time is usually overkill. I'd pack a longspear, longsword, whip, and bow, and start making attacks or greasy combat maneuvers in round 3 or 4 for more efficient expenditure of daily resources. There are more ways to support your party than just buffing.

EDIT: Think of it this way: death is the best debuff. Flanking bonus is a buff. AoOs are crowd control. A trip can be both buff and debuff. Eliminating an enemy this round gives your damage dealers free actions next round. Just by carrying a longspear and positioning yourself you can provide flanking bonuses and DFI-boosted AoOs without spending any actions or taking any feats. You can use this amazing tactic for the low low price of 5gp and str 10.

[WarKitty]

Ok, I did rearrange my stats to str 12 dex 14 int 16. If nothing else I can now actually wield a melee weapon without being over my str. Also dropped my wand in favor of another +1 to my armor - I figured I don't need a healing belt and a wand, especially now that I know we have a cleric.

[stanprollyright]

Ok, I did rearrange my stats to str 12 dex 14 int 16. If nothing else I can now actually wield a melee weapon without being over my str. Also dropped my wand in favor of another +1 to my armor - I figured I don't need a healing belt and a wand, especially now that I know we have a cleric.

Nice. I think you'll find it a lot more satisfying to occasionally be able to use your own buffs instead of "I sing" every round. And you can save some of your spells/day for out-of-combat bardic shananigans :D

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A few things to consider:

You picked up the Badge of Valor like a good DFI bard, but you failed to pick up the Bardic Vest which increases your effective bard level by +5, meaning an effective extra +1 Inspire (and +1d6 bonus damage) at these levels. Something to consider.

If you want to be a 'mosh pit bard', consider this:

With your high Int, you can dip a level of Warblade, get Song of the White Raven to let the levels of WB stack with Bard for your bardic stuff, some useful fighting stuff, then go directly into War Chanter from Complete Warrior. Its levels stack with Bard (and Warblade with Song of the White Raven) for your inspire, full BAB class, gets the pretty nice Inspire Recklessness (swap out AC for Attack bonus, for those hard-to-hit enemies), Combine Songs (so you can DFI while you Inspire Courage, or Recklessness, or... well...), Singing Shout is basically a Mass Bear's Strength spell usable at-will, and then there's Inspire Legion... which is absolute crack. Take the BAB of the individual with the highest BAB of anyone being affected by the song. Now everyone has that BAB. So, because your high BAB Barbarian dude is being affected, that means the 3/4 BAB rogues and monks and warlocks, and even the 1/2 BAB spellcasters get that full BAB. Complete with iterative attacks. Oh, and a +2 competence bonus to damage as well.

So, to recap:

Your DFI will probably be adding on... say roughly +7d6ish per attack, Song of Legion means everyone gets effectively full BAB including iteratives, and no one needs to buy +Str items because you already got that covered.

Sounds like a win to me.

[WarKitty]

A few things to consider:

You picked up the Badge of Valor like a good DFI bard, but you failed to pick up the Bardic Vest which increases your effective bard level by +5, meaning an effective extra +1 Inspire (and +1d6 bonus damage) at these levels. Something to consider.

A vest of legends is 16,000 gold. My starting gold as a 6th level character is 13,000 gold.

[stanprollyright]

Which PrCs (if any) are you aiming for?

[WarKitty]

Which PrCs (if any) are you aiming for?

I'm honestly kind of winging it, depending on how the game progresses. But I was imagining staying pure bard.

[stanprollyright]

I'm honestly kind of winging it, depending on how the game progresses. But I was imagining staying pure bard.

A nice Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 2-9 would let you stack inspire courage as well as give you some new music effects and 9th level spells while still being a nice well-rounded bard with plenty of skill points.

[Pyromancer999]

A nice Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 2-9 would let you stack inspire courage as well as give you some new music effects and 9th level spells while still being a nice well-rounded bard with plenty of skill points.

If going that route, might as well get 1-2 levels of Lyric Thaumaturge, as you won't be getting the final improvement to Inspire Courage, and that does improve your lower spell slots a bit.

Bard 10/Virtuoso 10 does lose you a caster level, but does fully progress Bardic Music while giving you Virtuoso performances.

Also, noticed this is a social character without ranks in Sense Motive, which is sort of the defense skill for social stuff. Is there someone else handling that?

[WarKitty]

I'm liking this lyric thaumaturge thing, and complete mage is on my permitted list (I actually do have a bit of a shortlist on permitted books, so some stuff's not allowed). I may just do that.

[Pyromancer999]

I'm liking this lyric thaumaturge thing, and complete mage is on my permitted list (I actually do have a bit of a shortlist on permitted books, so some stuff's not allowed). I may just do that.

It is a good PrC for a casting Bard. The important thing to note is that while it does stack with Bard for determining additional uses, it doesn't stack for progressing Inspire Courage and the like. Still, Lyric Thaumaturge is pretty good for improving the Bard.

[WarKitty]

It is a good PrC for a casting Bard. The important thing to note is that while it does stack with Bard for determining additional uses, it doesn't stack for progressing Inspire Courage and the like. Still, Lyric Thaumaturge is pretty good for improving the Bard.

Hmmm...that might tip it back into sticking with straight bard. Especially as I kinda want to hang onto my bardic knack.

On the other hand, bardic music progresses so slowly, and I'm really not expecting to take this character to 20.

[stanprollyright]

What's allowed?

I believe Sublime Chord and Fochlucan Lyrist are the only ones that stacks Bardic Knowledge (and therefore Knack).

I've always thought Seeker of the Song looked cool but I've never tried it. It doesn't stack anything except musics per day, but it gives you all sorts of interesting abilities.

All 3 of those are from the Completes.

[Pyromancer999]

What's allowed?

I believe Sublime Chord and Fochlucan Lyrist are the only ones that stacks Bardic Knowledge (and therefore Knack).

I've always thought Seeker of the Song looked cool but I've never tried it. It doesn't stack anything except musics per day, but it gives you all sorts of interesting abilities.

All 3 of those are from the Completes.

Knack isn't the same as Bardic Knowledge, so any progression would have to be houseruled.

[WarKitty]

I'm honestly expecting the campaign to top out around level 15, so while I'm not opposed to level 20 builds there's a pretty good chance the build won't see the final levels. Which might make me a bit more ok with giving up music progression, especially as it can be boosted with items.

Books are:
PHBI
PHBII
MM
DMG
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
ToB
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Mage
Book of Vile Darkness
Book of Exalted Deeds
Spell Compendium
Stormwrack
Magic Item Compendium

I petitioned in the DFI requisites, and it is possible to petition in some other stuff, so it's not entirely a hard-and-fast rule.

[stanprollyright]

If you can't petition for Complete Arcane and/or Adventurer, I'd just stick with straight Bard. IMO the only reason to take Lyric Thaumaturge is to buff up spellcasting in preparation for or in lieu of Sublime Chord. But since it doesn't scale with Bardic Knowledge or Inspire Courage, I wouldn't do more than a 2-3 level dip regardless.

EDIT: I know I've mentioned them before, but definitely look over the skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel. They're relatively cheap and you'll qualify for them with ease.

[Pyromancer999]

If you can't petition for Complete Arcane and/or Adventurer, I'd just stick with straight Bard. IMO the only reason to take Lyric Thaumaturge is to buff up spellcasting in preparation for or in lieu of Sublime Chord. But since it doesn't scale with Bardic Knowledge or Inspire Courage, I wouldn't do more than a 2-3 level dip regardless.

EDIT: I know I've mentioned them before, but definitely look over the skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel. They're relatively cheap and you'll qualify for them with ease.

I mean, White Raven-focused Warblade or Crusader could be a good multiclass for a few levels later, as 1)White Raven is good for people with groups of meatshields and 2) Song of the White Raven lets you activate Inspire Courage as a swift action, plus Warblade and Crusader levels stack with Bard for determining the effects of Inspire Courage.

Straight Bard is still pretty good, though, and does the job just fine.

[WarKitty]

I think the primary problem with Warblade or Crusader is my lack of desire to learn ToB. I mean, I'm sure I could, I just don't want to.

[Pyromancer999]

I think the primary problem with Warblade or Crusader is my lack of desire to learn ToB. I mean, I'm sure I could, I just don't want to.

I figured, just thought I'd present the option just in case.

[stanprollyright]

Warblade is the simplest and you only need 1 level for Song of the White Raven and a couple choice maneuvers. It's worth it to be able to cast spells and start a music buff in the same round. Or do 2 musics. The White Raven Stance you get is Leading the Charge, which gives a scaling dmg bonus to your allies' charges.

That actually makes Lyric Thaumaturge better, too (DFI->Polymorph into a hydra in the same round!).

[WarKitty]

New note: I just figured out that flaws are in play.

[Pyromancer999]

New note: I just figured out that flaws are in play.

Could get Nymph's Kiss for an extra skill point at each level. Could also grab Apprentice(Soldier) or Martial Study(Devoted Spirit) for Intimidate as a class skill, if you want Doomspeak at a higher level.

Could also use it to get Wild Cohort, if you want an animal companion of sorts, which also benefits from your Inspire Courage. A fun note on this is that you qualify for higher power animal companions as Wild Cohorts as a Druid of 3 levels lower, but unlike an animal companion, there is nothing to note that a more powerful Wild Cohort decreases your effective level for Wild Cohort.

[WarKitty]

I'm thinking able learner myself, especially if I jump to lyric thaumaturge (you'll note I already have nymph's kiss).

[Pyromancer999]

I'm thinking able learner myself, especially if I jump to lyric thaumaturge (you'll note I already have nymph's kiss).

Ah, true. Able Learner is a good choice.

[WarKitty]

Picked up able learner and martial study. Picked up a few skill tricks - went back to bardic knowledge and the GM ok'd stacking collector of stories with bardic knowledge.

[stanprollyright]

Picked up able learner and martial study. Picked up a few skill tricks - went back to bardic knowledge and the GM ok'd stacking collector of stories with bardic knowledge.

Nice!

Couple things that come to mind, now that you have some feats to spare: if bardic knowledge works for IDing monsters, Knowledge Devotion just got crazy good.
Combat Reflexes is a good feat to burn a flaw on, especially with a longspear.
Improved Initiative should never be overlooked either.
You can use Martial Study->Martial Stance to qualify for Song of the White Raven without a dip.

[WarKitty]

Technically once I added Able Learner and Martial Study I'm at my limit for flaw-feats. And I kinda killed my melee ability to do so - I won't be good for much more than flanking and intimidating.

Definitely thinking of improved initiative in the future though. And I think I'm about to need to be done fiddling.

[MeeposFire]

Do you have a set of skills that you really want to invest in that requires able learner? You have bardic knack so you get automatic boost to skills as you level which is almost as good as cross class skills limits (though not quite as good). Unless you really want to invest in those skills you could save that feat for something else. If you need another skill feat consider jack of all trades which essentially allows you to use all skills and with it you can get bardic knack to apply to all skills not just ones that can be used untrained without spending one skill point.

[WarKitty]

Do you have a set of skills that you really want to invest in that requires able learner? You have bardic knack so you get automatic boost to skills as you level which is almost as good as cross class skills limits (though not quite as good). Unless you really want to invest in those skills you could save that feat for something else. If you need another skill feat consider jack of all trades which essentially allows you to use all skills and with it you can get bardic knack to apply to all skills not just ones that can be used untrained without spending one skill point.

I actually switched back to bardic knowledge. Although to be fair I think the only thing I invested in cross-class is disable device, so it might be worth it to just drop able learner.

...Now that I think about it, I'll just take improved initiative instead.

[Hiro Quester]

Don't underestimate the awesomeness of Sublime Chord. Especially if your party does not have another arcane caster. By the time you get to 9th level, you have most of the great bardic musics, and the casting there is pretty handy. Especially getting the bard 6th level spells at 13th level (irresistible dance!).

Bard 9/ bard PrC 1/SC 2/bardPrC8 gives you much better casting, with most of the best bardlyness.

Also, consider learning the spell Harmonize from Races of Stone (or ask your DM if you can make a custom magic item). It enables you to start bardic music as a move action (leaving a standard action for spellcasting). So when you learn a 3rd level spell (it almost certainly should be Haste), your first round of most combats will be singing and casting Haste. Your party members will learn to delay until after you have done that.

And that brings me to your Dex score. Dex should be your third stat, after cha and con. (Reflex saves, skills, but most importantly initiative). You will have enough skills from bard to make good use of, even with a slightly lower int.

But a higher Dex for more going-first-ness is essential for a party buffer. You need to be going before the monsters and before your meat shields.

[Pyromancer999]

With Intimidate now as a class skill, could always substitute Improved Initiative with whatever feat you're taking at 6th(as it does not appear you are taking any feats that need to be taken at 6th) and take Imperious Command or Doomspeak, for mass Intimidate checks for fear & demoralization or a -10 to all rolls for a round for a foe with a DC that is based on your total character level and your Charisma modifier.


Don't underestimate the awesomeness of Sublime Chord. Especially if your party does not have another arcane caster. By the time you get to 9th level, you have most of the great bardic musics, and the casting there is pretty handy. Especially getting the bard 6th level spells at 13th level (irresistible dance!).

It has already been mentioned there's at least a beguiler in the party, so there is at least one arcane full caster, if enchantment/illusion focused.

[WarKitty]

With Intimidate now as a class skill, could always substitute Improved Initiative with whatever feat you're taking at 6th(as it does not appear you are taking any feats that need to be taken at 6th) and take Imperious Command or Doomspeak, for mass Intimidate checks for fear & demoralization or a -10 to all rolls for a round for a foe with a DC that is based on your total character level and your Charisma modifier.



It has already been mentioned there's at least a beguiler in the party, so there is at least one arcane full caster, if enchantment/illusion focused.

I actually have to take words of creation at 6.

[MeeposFire]

I actually have to take words of creation at 6.

Be sure you need some very high power. Words of creation with bardic music can be really powerful. Powerful enough to make most standard encounters complete jokes from an attack roll perspective. I remember a game where every time the bard sang the encounter was essentially over.

[WarKitty]

It has already been mentioned there's at least a beguiler in the party, so there is at least one arcane full caster, if enchantment/illusion focused.

More to the point, sublime chord is not in the approved book list.