How is Cheliax so powerful if it oppresses its people so bad?

[Zhentarim]

Wouldn't it be overthrown by now or really, really, tiny?

[Extra Anchovies]

Cheliax is in fact a long way down from where it used to be. After the death of Aroden, the Chelaxian nobles got together and decided to have three decades of bloody civil war. Things only settled down a bit when House Thrune signed itself over to Hell and went around mopping up opposing houses with their shiny new army of devils. Continued dealings with devils has maintained their political power, while control of the Arch of Aroden (and thus of trade passing between the Inner Sea and Arcadian Ocean) has kept them propped up economically.

[Hattish Thing]

What Anchovies said. In addition to that, however, Cheliax boasts a particularly powerful military, what with Hellknights and Devils and all sorts of things like that. Rebellions have been attempted in modern Cheliax, and while some partially succeed, most are crushed.

The Adventure Path's "Hell's Rebels" and "Hell's Vengeance" go into deeper detail about it all.

--

TLDR; rebellions have been attempted a few times, Cheliax has usually been strong enough to crush them down.

[AvatarVecna]

Wouldn't it be overthrown by now or really, really, tiny?

...because only tiny governments can stay oppressive for very long? :smallconfused:

To avoid violating forum rules, I'll use an example potentially even more controversial than IRL politics and countries past and present: the Federation in Star Trek. If you've ever watched/heard of Star Trek, you probably have some idea that it's a sci-fi show centered around a ship and her crew, which goes off to explore the galaxy, meet new species, record data, learn new stuff, blah blah blah. Now, if you get interested enough in Star Trek to look for people theorizing about it online, you've probably come across, in one flavor or another, a "Star Trek's Federation is actually evil/fascist/oppressive/totalitarian/communist/Nazis/whatever" theory. I'm sure there's hundreds of blog posts/forum posts/vlogs/articles/whatever about the subject, so linking to all of them would be impossible, but here's some by internet!popular sources: a Youtube video by Film Theory (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4KBPaS-1PU), an article on Cracked.com (http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-star-trek-federation-evil-empire/), a Youtube video by Cracked: After Hours (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Kju_-1sYM), a thread here ITP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?97377-Deconstructing-the-Federation-of-Star-Trek), an essay on a more dedicated Sci-Fi site that was linked in that thread (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html)...you get the point.

While I'm not going to summarize every point of these arguments, a lot of it boils down to the Federation having significant influence/control over freedom of expression/speech/information, having corruption practically baked into the command structure, and sending heavily armed 'exploration vessels' to explore for the sake of exploration (a classic bull**** excuse for conquerors). Regardless of whether you believe these kinds of theories or not, you have to admit that there's a lot of stuff that looks fairly sketchy at a glance, and yet most of the people in the Federation seem content to serve their government/species in whatever way their government/species deems appropriate, with most of the real betrayers being corrupt individuals that have gathered personal power.

EDIT: I realize this has nothing to do with Cheliax (which is kind of intentional since I'm completely unfamiliar with the fluff), but the argument in the OP seems based on the idea that an oppressive government can't keep too many people in an iron grip for too long a period, and I'm pointing out that it's not exactly a new thing in fiction. We can't really discuss how realistic such things are IRL, because that would inevitably get entangled with discussing IRL politics, but we can certainly discuss it as a fairly well established fictional trope.

EDIT 2: You see this kind of thing pop up a lot in literature as well; Hunger Games and Divergent have an oppressive government keeping control over large groups of people over a large area, as does Anthem.

[Coidzor]

They're a large nation with abundant natural resources and a large population.

As far as keeping the people from rebelling... Devils and propaganda and the queen's secret police.

Also, with the hopelessness from having their god die, a lot of people were susceptible to diabolism.

There are some real world politics examples which might be of interest as well, especially historically.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I have two words to say, and that's all I'll say: North Korea.

Go look it up.

[Kurald Galain]

In addition of the above posts, Cheliax has a "ministry of truth". Go and read the novel 1945 for details; it's basically a department of changing historical documents to make them support the ruling party. So it's fair to assume that most of the population is ignorant and afraid to speak out.

[Tuvarkz]

On top of that, the oppression part only applies on those that actively oppose House Thrune. The large majority of the common folk largely doesn't care much for what the ruling groups are doing. There's people like Barzillai Thrune, but he is by large an exception on how paranoid he is.
To boot, people that make themselves useful to the government can live quite comfortable if not outright luxurious lives.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think the key difference between Cheliax and most other oppressive empires is that Cheliax's government is being propped up and supported by a massively more powerful outside force. Most real world oppressive governments were run by and had their laws enforced by humans (I'm on to you lizard people!) and humans have this crappy little weakness called "empathy." Human soldiers can be made to sympathize with the plights of those they oppress. They don't typically like killing people that look like them. Devils don't have that problem. The Infernal Realms of Hell made a deal with House Thrune to help them rule Cheliax and devils, for all their faults, aren't really ones to break a deal. They'll lend a massive amount of support in terms of magic, resources and yes, troops, to protect their interests in Cheliax. Because House Thrune has such a powerful ally backing them, it becomes infinitely more difficult to oust them.

[Psyren]

Cheliax is in fact a long way down from where it used to be. After the death of Aroden, the Chelaxian nobles got together and decided to have three decades of bloody civil war. Things only settled down a bit when House Thrune signed itself over to Hell and went around mopping up opposing houses with their shiny new army of devils. Continued dealings with devils has maintained their political power, while control of the Arch of Aroden (and thus of trade passing between the Inner Sea and Arcadian Ocean) has kept them propped up economically.

This is the primary answer, but most of the above have some relevance as well.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Golarion isn't actually a stable equilibrium - there are a number of hooks sewn in that are more or less on the cusp of unraveling entire nations within the setting if not the setting itself. Maybe in your campaign, Cheliax is ultimately overthrown and dissolved entirely by freedom fighters from Andoran and Galt. Maybe a cosmic-level threat emerges from the hearts of the Worldwound, Numeria, the Mana Wastes or the Tanglebriar and every other nation suddenly needs to put aside their differences and band together to stop it. Maybe Asmodeus himself possesses Razmir, and uses his newfound influence in both nations to begin Cheliax's resurgence across the Inner Sea. Maybe an entity claiming to be Geb's long-lost rival Nex emerges within Ustalav, and Geb begins a massive undead crusade to finish off his rival, crushing any nation who stands in his way with his Mythic powers.

The point is that what they have set up in Cheliax is more of a snapshot - if you don't believe it's a situation that can last very long, the idea is to play out what you think would happen at your table, and decide whether the PCs should be supporting or opposing whatever is about to happen, and all the potential nuances of that.

[Segev]

You've probably heard the terms "first world nation" and "third world nation." What doesn't get used much these days is "second world nation." The concept became outdated, in theory, with the end of the Cold War.

A second world nation is characterized by having a first world military and a third world economy. Usually it is accomplished by massive draining of enormous populations of their resources and concentrating them centrally for the purpose of maintaining and growing the military.

History suggests that it is only sustainable for so long, but that it can look terrifying while it is in place. Also, using that military to expand and add more, un-plundered resources to the base can keep it going longer.

[Extra Anchovies]

There's also the matter of Cheliax's neighbors. Galt, Andoran, and Molthune were all Chelaxian vassal states or provinces until the civil war, and likely do not want to risk their still relatively new independence by challenging House Thrune. Isger is still recovering from the Goblinblood Wars thirteen years prior to 4710 AD (the 'present day' of Golarion lore), the only external organization which offered assistance in cleaning up and raising all the new postwar orphans was the Church of Asmodeus, and Isger's current top head of government is not-very-secretly beholden to Cheliax, so that's three reasons not to cause trouble right there. Nidal gained its independence from Cheliax in return for the Umbral Council's support of House Thrune, and Zon-Kuthon is perfectly happy with Cheliax's reliance on Hell. Rahadoum is bringing in a pretty penny by renting out its merchant marine force to guide ships through the Cheliax-controlled Arch of Aroden, and the Rahadoumi government has enough on their hands between the pirates of the Shackles and Rahadoum's strained relations with Thuvia and Osirion that they probably wouldn't want to risk making an enemy to the north as well.

I can't find anything on Druma's relations with Cheliax. It seems that they're focused enough on amassing wealth and gaining influence among their immediate neighbors (Isger, Molthune, Andoran, Kyonin) that they don't have any current designs on Cheliax. I could see that changing if the Kalistrocracy decides that it's time for the Hour of Victory, though, and an attempted hostile takeover by Druma could well be enough to knock Cheliax off its feet for good - especially if Rahadoum seizes the opportunity to reclaim their former control of the Arch of Aroden.

Also, kudos to the folks at pathfinderwiki (http://pathfinderwiki.com/) for putting together an excellently comprehensive arrangement of Golarion lore.

[Red Fel]

I'm just still trying to wrap my brain around the assumptions inherent in the OP. It's oppressive LE, so... it should be pathetic and weak?

I mean, have you ever read a book? Seen a movie? Sure, LE tyrannies get overthrown in many cases (although not all), but as Tarquin himself notes, they have to get that way first.

And Cheliax has the advantage of not solely relying on ordinary mortal tyrants. The ruling class is in league with professionals, thank you, and if there's anyone who has experience successfully running a tyrannical hierarchy for a Hell of a long time, it's the Devils.

We know our business, is the point.

Seriously, before I can even answer the question, Qwanch, I'm going to need you to explain your reasoning. There are holes in it you can drive the Tarrasque through.

[Extra Anchovies]

Seriously, before I can even answer the question, Qwanch, I'm going to need you to explain your reasoning. There are holes in it you can drive the Tarrasque through.

I think the main question is why the populace of Cheliax hasn't revolted and established a freer state. I'd say the answer to that is mostly because it's only seventy-one years since the end of thirty-three years of continuous civil war. There are humans alive in Cheliax who were born during that time; in fact, the lowest possible maximum age for a human is 72, so every human dying of old age in 4710 was alive for at least some part of the Chelish Civil War. Much of the population has parents who witnessed the destruction first-hand. The people of Cheliax know war, and war is hell. If some sort of hell is going to govern their lives, it may as well be a Hell of the organized sort.

There's also the fact that the last time Cheliax was left without a spiritual patron, after the departure of Aroden, the nation immediately collapsed into bloody anarchy and stayed that way until House Thrune emerged with a different supernatural ally. If Cheliax needs the support of the outer planes to remain stable, and Hell was the only plane to offer its services, then Hell is their best option.

Edit: the Paizo lore team needs to get together, decide if it's gonna be Chelish or Chelaxian, and stick with it. :smallannoyed:

[Psyren]

Edit: the Paizo lore team needs to get together, decide if it's gonna be Chelish or Chelaxian, and stick with it. :smallannoyed:

Given that we haven't managed to resolve Elvish vs. Elven even decades later, I think you're in for a long wait :smalltongue:

[SangoProduction]

I have two words to say, and that's all I'll say: North Korea.

Go look it up.

I'll raise you one, and say China.

OK. I'll stop with the IRL stuff.