Cleric wants to act like a Rogue

[Cisturn]

Hey playgrounders,

I'm running a low level game for a few of my friends. One player rolled up a cleric but has told me that he's prefer to sneak around and try to steal stuff. Does anyone know how to help a cleric run around and do rogueish stuff?

I asked him if he wants to re-roll, but he's grown attached to his character. Though he said he is interested in potentially multiclassing down the line. He's also okay with changing his domains around.

Right now he's level two, and the game will probably run to level six or seven.

[Waker]

What sources do you have available?
Anyways, one easy thing is to make sure you have the Trickery domain. The added skills will help out. That being said, the lack of skill points hurts, so many would suggest the Cloistered Cleric acf from Unearthed Arcana. Having a Knowledge based Cleric who is also a thief might require a bit of creative role-playing or refluffing.

[Cisturn]

Unfortunately I lost most of my books the when my last hard drive failed. But as the DM I would allow any of the books/magazines etc.

[Crake]

Cloistered cleric with the trickery domain as someone mentioned would be a good start, but to really help with the rest, we need to know more about his character. For example, the black flame zealot could be an interesting prestige class, though he can't be good for that (though he can be neutral and follow a good deity if he wishes). There are a few other rogue/caster combinations out there, unseen seer could easily be adapted for a divine version for example?

[Vizzerdrix]

Adding the Dark template would help. Hide in Plain Sight pluse bonuses to sneaky related skills.

[Taveena]

Kobold domain grants trapfinding, if you consider that a core part of a Rogue's identity. If you're after sneak attack, then Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) from Tome of Battle and the Craven feat together will allow them to deal 2d6+character level bonus damage when flanking an enemy or attacking a flat-footed enemy. (If you do this, the Shadow Blade feat can also add Dexterity to damage rolls.)

[Vizzerdrix]

All things combined, a Dark changeling cloistered cleric with kobold and trickery domains. With knowledge swapped for the devotion feat, along with craven and MS-assassins stance. That sounds quite fun. I may have to borrow that.

[Inevitability]

All things combined, a Dark changeling cloistered cleric with kobold and trickery domains. With knowledge swapped for the devotion feat, along with craven and MS-assassins stance. That sounds quite fun. I may have to borrow that.

Classes are always fun when played as another class. Maybe not effective, but fun. :smalltongue:

[Nifft]

Main base class: Cloistered Cleric (Trickery, Knowledge, and ___), as mentioned by Waker.

PrCs you should check out:

- Divine Oracle from Complete Divine. Gives you Evasion and Uncanny Dodge (plus another Domain).

- Shadowbane Stalker from Complete Arcane. Advances Sneak Attack, and has 6 skill points / level with a good skill list. Loses 2 caster levels.

- Divine Prankster from Races of Stone is more like a Bard-Cleric than a Rogue, but it's got full caster advancement, and 6 skill points / level from a good list. You must be a Gnome to get in.

- - -

Of course, if you're starting at level 6 or higher, another way to go about being a Roguish Cleric is to be a Rogue => Chameleon who is just pretending to be a Cleric... because with sufficiently advanced pretending, a Chameleon can cast Divine spells.

[hector212121]

If this is pathfinder, remember traits. Child of the Moon=variable +1-4 to stealth, while others can add it as a class skill.

[Extra Anchovies]

A good option in Pathfinder is the Cult Leader (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/warpriest/archetypes/paizo---warpriest-archetypes/cult-leader) Warpriest. The archetype provides +1d6 sneak attack at 3rd and every 3 subsequent levels, +2 skill points/level, the Rogue's weapon/armor proficiencies, and Hide in Plain Sight at 12th. It also modifies the skill list to be more sneak-oriented, and it only gives up focus weapon, channel energy, and four of the bonus combat feats. Travel, Trickery, and Void would all be solid choices of Blessing for a sneaky priest, since they have mobility- or stealth-enhancing options which could be useful in or out of combat.

[Psyren]

Classes are always fun when played as another class. Maybe not effective, but fun. :smalltongue:

For many of us, effectiveness IS fun. I presume the OP (or his player) is one of those, since he is asking advice on making the concept more effective mechanically.
Merely proclaiming "I'm a sneaky cleric!" while the dice have you tripping over your own shoelaces and shattering vases left and right creates a dissonance.

@OP: As others have said, rebuilding to Cloistered Cleric for the skill points and then using things like dips, traits, PrCs or even feats to get the necessary sneaky skills in-class is probably the best bet if he absolutely must stick with Cleric.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794

Take a look at that!

A Cloistered Cleric with the Kobold and Trickery domain!

[Nifft]

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794

Take a look at that!

A Cloistered Cleric with the Kobold and Trickery domain!

A Gnome with the Kobold domain.

:eek:

It would be expected for her to die in her sleep before meeting the rest of the party.

(Gnome or Illusion are great for a Gnome to combo with Trickery, because of Silent Image leading into Shadowcraft Mage.)

[gorfnab]

The Giant himself, Rich Burlew, created this prestige class for Rogue/Cleric builds: Divine Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?172910-Articles-Previously-Appearing-on-GiantITP-com&p=9623145#post9623145)

Also the feat Sacred Outlaw (Drg #357) stacks Rogue and Cleric levels to determine sneak attack damage.

[Gavinfoxx]

A Gnome with the Kobold domain.

:eek:

It would be expected for her to die in her sleep before meeting the rest of the party.

(Gnome or Illusion are great for a Gnome to combo with Trickery, because of Silent Image leading into Shadowcraft Mage.)

Reflavored Kobold domain. Read more closely.

[Nifft]

Reflavored Kobold domain. Read more closely.

It's pretty rude of you to imply that I'm not reading what you wrote.

I'll give it a good-faith effort and assume that reading more closely will actually result in something other than the suicidal stupidity to which I had originally responded.

Here's normally close reading:

http://i.imgur.com/jDlk6PI.png

Let's try closer:

http://i.imgur.com/LhmCSfX.png

Hmm. Still looks like you're taking the Kobold domain. Maybe we just need to go closer:

http://i.imgur.com/c1JdzQa.png

Nope. It's still exactly what I saw originally.

Upon closer reading, it looks like your character is suffering from suicidal stupidity, by being a Gnome with the Kobold domain.

- - -

Moving on.

As was said before, it's probably better to go for Illusion or Gnome anyway, since those nab you Silent Image, and you can do naughty things with Silent Image as a Gnome Shadowcraft Mage.

[Psyren]

I think he meant the entry in the myth-weavers sheet said Kobold Domain was changed to "Trap Domain" while remaining mechanically identical or something like that.

Granted, it was still a rude way to phrase it, and doesn't exactly explain why a "Trap Domain" would have Gnome Blight on it either :smalltongue:

[Extra Anchovies]

Maybe it's a kobold who was Reincarnated as a gnome. They use their perfect disguise to slip into gnomish territories and set up devious traps to weaken their infrastructure and morale. If they're caught in the act, they can get out of it by saying "it's just a prank, bro! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wldE_4xjVQ)". After all, that's pretty much what Garl Glittergold said when he destroyed everything the kobolds had ever built in a fit of spite and envy (Complete Kobold Races of the Dragon p. 50).

[Psyren]

Maybe it's a kobold who was Reincarnated as a gnome. They use their perfect disguise to slip into gnomish territories and set up devious traps to weaken their infrastructure and morale. If they're caught in the act, they can get out of it by saying "it's just a prank, bro! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wldE_4xjVQ)". After all, that's pretty much what Garl Glittergold said when he destroyed everything the kobolds had ever built in a fit of spite and envy (Complete Kobold Races of the Dragon p. 50).

Well of course the Kobold book paints him to look like a jackass. It's the Kobold book.

This is like asking Grummsh and Lolth for character references on Corellon Larethian.

[Nifft]

Maybe it's a kobold who was Reincarnated as a gnome. They use their perfect disguise to slip into gnomish territories and set up devious traps to weaken their infrastructure and morale. If they're caught in the act, they can get out of it by saying "it's just a prank, bro! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wldE_4xjVQ)". After all, that's pretty much what Garl Glittergold said when he destroyed everything the kobolds had ever built in a fit of spite and envy (Complete Kobold Races of the Dragon p. 50).
He was part of a special task force of very Gnome-looking Kobolds who infiltrated cities:

"How do you do, fellow mammals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ele_dj3ud38)?"

His name is obviously Steve-Steve.

[Gavinfoxx]

By 'read more closely', I meant 'Actually click the link for the character sheet and actually read the writeup, including the re-flavoring and details on the character sheet', guys.

[Psyren]

By 'read more closely', I meant 'Actually click the link for the character sheet and actually read the writeup, including the re-flavoring and details on the character sheet', guys.

I'm aware, that's what I was pointing out (just with added commentary.)

[Extra Anchovies]

Well of course the Kobold book paints him to look like a jackass. It's the Kobold book.

Deities and Demigods confirms that Garl collapsed Kurtulmak's home "as a joke", so ol' Glittergold is the instigator of their feud. The Gnome book (Races of Stone) doesn't mention the destruction of Darastrixhurthi at all, almost like they're trying to sweep it under the rug. And while gnomes and kobolds each have options to make them better at fighting each other (Gnome Foe Killer and Kobold Foe Strike), every gnome has a racial bonus to attack kobolds, and kobolds have no corresponding trait. I'll also point out that the anti-gnome feat is Kobold Foe Strike, while the anti-kobold feat is Gnome Foe Killer; a strike can be made to drive away an attacker, but the gnomes are clear in their desire to see the kobolds dead.

Teach the controversy!

[Inevitability]

Deities and Demigods confirms that Garl collapsed Kurtulmak's home "as a joke", so ol' Glittergold is the instigator of their feud. The Gnome book (Races of Stone) doesn't mention the destruction of Darastrixhurthi at all, almost like they're trying to sweep it under the rug. And while gnomes and kobolds each have options to make them better at fighting each other (Gnome Foe Killer and Kobold Foe Strike), every gnome has a racial bonus to attack kobolds, and kobolds have no corresponding trait. I'll also point out that the anti-gnome feat is Kobold Foe Strike, while the anti-kobold feat is Gnome Foe Killer; a strike can be made to drive away an attacker, but the gnomes are clear in their desire to see the kobolds dead.

Teach the controversy!

Yeah, but when the gnomes kill a kobold, it's not evil! Didn't you pay attention during alignment class?

[Nifft]

Yeah, but when the gnomes kill a kobold, it's not evil! Didn't you pay attention during alignment class?

... why do I feel this is leading to a protest about how Dragon Lives Matter?

[Psyren]

Deities and Demigods confirms that Garl collapsed Kurtulmak's home "as a joke",

It confirms no such thing; the sentence about him collapsing Kurtulmak's home is standalone and not part of the same statement saying he enjoys jests. You're ascribing a motive that isn't proven.

EDIT: Ah, I see your line is coming from Kurtulmak's own entry, while mine is coming from Garl's. So I'm going with that there's still some propaganda clouding the issue here. The most we can definitively say is that Garl did indeed do what he did, but we can't say why; given Kurtulmak's dogma though, I'm going to lean towards he had it coming.

[Taveena]

Honestly, the potential reasons for a gnome with the Kobold domain are super interesting. Maybe she became disillusioned and hostile towards gnomekind. Maybe she was found by some Kobolds who were more interested in the potential of a loyal gnome than murdering an infant. Maybe she's interacted heavily with the rare good aligned Kobolds.

These all sound like hella neat concepts, actually. Kinda sad I hate prepared casters.

[Telonius]

Hey playgrounders,

I'm running a low level game for a few of my friends. One player rolled up a cleric but has told me that he's prefer to sneak around and try to steal stuff. Does anyone know how to help a cleric run around and do rogueish stuff?


I imagine my current Cleric's reply would be, "Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing?" (Then again she's a Cleric of Olidammara). 

Anyway, I'm running her as a Cloistered Cleric/Warlock1/Eldritch Disciple, with Able Learner to help with skills. No trapfinding, but the social skills (especially combined with Beguiling Influence) make her a great rogue-ish character.

[Eldariel]

I Xth Cloistered Cleric with Trickery-domain. That's a good start. Such a build is still missing Move Silently, which you can work around or accept. Whisper Gnome is of course a decent race option (30' movement speed, secondary stat bonus, great stealth bonuses, racial ability to cast Silence to circumvent the issue once per day), though Humans and various Wisdom-boosting races also work. Down the road, you can enter Ruathar [Races of the Wild] on level 6 to finalize your skill list: it gets all the stealth/perception skills in class, has 4+Int points and you get to be more elf-like which is of course a massive bonus for any lesser race. If you have Able Learner, one level is enough to keep them all in class.

The other point, Divine Insight [Spell Compendium] + Guidance of the Avatar (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) on level 3 give her a lot of ways to buff skill checks on command. Thus, when there's some crucial skill check (such as Disable Device, certain Knowledges or such), Divine Insight acts as a constant "source" of bonus while Guidance of the Avatar can be used with prep time to get through almost whatever. Of course, 2nd level slots are a huge investment but still. Oh, and she'll also get Silence on level 2 which enables circumventing the lack of Move Silently - cast on an object that can then be cast aside should push come to shove and spells be needed.


If one wishes to have the Kobold-domain but doesn't appreciate the RP baggage, there's always Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment [Planar Handbook] down the line to get the power without any affiliation. Conveniently the skills are still added to your Cleric list. And before that point, you can always do just fine vs. under DC 20 Traps, and Detect Magic handles detection of the magical ones just fine.

Of course, Cleric magic down the line makes life a lot easier. It's more getting to that point that's the primary issue here.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Trickery isn't a bad candidate for Spontaneous Domain Casting [Player's Handbook II]. Trades away your useless spontaneous Cure/Inflict-nonsense, gets you spontaneous Invisibilities or whatever instead; 1/day no longer a problem. And Trickery has a lot of good spells, some of which are extremely convenient to have always available (of course, the level 1, 5 & 7 spells are quite situational and the level 3 spell is legit useless far as spontaneity goes but the rest range from "Nice" to "Awesome" to "OMGWTFBBQ" in the case of Polymorph Any Object/Time Stop - then again, situationals are not bad to have on command).