I've Got a New/Bad DM...

[CaptainSarathai]

I know there was another thread for bad DM stuff, but it's very old and i don't want to necropost. So here we are.

I've got a poor DM
He's in over his head, and it shows. A local(ish) store was having a sort of "learn to play" event, which was cool. I was invited to the table as a PC - I've run such events before and know it's helpful to have a veteran behind the screen and one in front to kind of "role model" and help other players with rules on the side.

It quickly became clear however that the DM is as green as anyone else at the table. He told us outright that this is his first jaunt DMing, and although he played 4e and Pathfinder, he's never played 5e. Hoo boy...

So he's running pre-gens through LMoP, I've got my rolled character. And he's just... bad to be at a table with.

1) He doesn't know the rules, but also won't adjudicate on the fly. Things like,
- Squeezing through a friendly space
- No Crits on Skill Checks
- Anything related to Death Saves
- The use of most Skills

2) He's running LMoP and leaving out tons of stuff, railroading us through fights. If we go off script, he falls apart and calls break over every little thing. We're at Ch2, and we've heard NOTHING about Cragmaw Castle, the Order of the Gauntlet, after rescuing Sildaar we haven't see or heard from him again, half the NPCs are non-existent. It doesn't matter though, because...

3) There's hardly any NPC interaction. For example, I was able to incapacitate a RedBrand who fought us in the town. Before I could interrogate him, he snapped his own neck. Not like it mattered - we hiked up to the Town Master and asked where their hideout was. He didn't know, but sent us to meet with the Halfling farmwoman and her son. So we went there (uneventfully) and she told us where the secret entrance was, without any RP or rolling required.
We've "talked" to shop-keepers who should have given us hooks for side quests, but it was all handwaved as "I'll buy your loot - now cross it off and add gold"
Not that it matters because...

4) All the NPCs sound like the same bored, know-it-all, snobs. "Hrmmm, yes... I vaguely remember seeing Redbrands coming out of... Tresendar Manor, was it called? Hrmmm, yes, that's it"
Seriously, I don't know what the hell he's going for. I'm not even sure if he's acting this, because he already speaks as closely to this as a real person could feasibly get away with. He also mumbles everything, in a busy game store, to a large table. I've taken to sitting right next to the screen just to hear him, and still couldn't differentiate Mace/Maze, which ended up screwing with the whole party Which still doesn't help because...

5) I swear to Tiamat, this kid can't read. Alembics, Peridots, Stalactites, Reagents - I could make a list before getting into the "fictional" words like Phandelin. Even if he hacks the word out, he doesn't know what half of it means.

6) He doesn't understand encounter design. We have 6 players at the table, and he won't add NPCs to the fight. We usually roll through our enemies in about 2 rounds of fighting unless we miss. We've been clearing dungeons without even short rests. We've only had 1 player KOed. Which all culminates in...

7) Bored players at a poorly-managed table. People go off topic, spend the whole time on their phones til we get to fights, then swing their axe twice and then go back to their phone. He will just sit in (obviously fake) "stunned silence" for minutes at a time after a player does something dramatically off-kilter. Some players are trending dangerously toward Chaotic Evil just because they want to do something colorful. We lose 15 minute chunks of our sessions because people are allowed to ramble off topic, or he calls break because we've outpaced him or complicated the script from the starter. Which scares me because...

8) Once we finish LMoP, he wants everyone to start over with L1 characters (even though EVERYONE wants to keep going from L5) and start a new campaign of his own devising. Dude can't even run LMoP without tripping over himself, let alone run a homebrew, most likely.

9) The God-d****d Nothic
So, this was the only part he played well. He did the whispering, gibbering, insane thing pretty alright, and seemed to enjoy it. I'm played a Tomelock when we hit 3rd, so after clearing Tresendar, I went back in search of the Nothic's spellbook to use as my Book of Secrets. I asked before hand, and he said it was a really cool idea, and we'd missed getting Talon from a search anyway. So I head back when the party is taking a long rest, and he leads me to the treasure (totally roll-free) and I go back to the party. My idea was to let them catch me, and hopefully one of the LG players would be affronted by my character taking such a clearly evil artifact. But as I'm "studying" it, the words are twisting on the page and suddenly spell out, "Oops, I prepared Exploding Runes this morning"
So I throw the book away (rolled Dex - didn't need to) and nothing happens. I tentatively pick up the spellbook and the words rearrange, "Psych!"
Seriously guy? I'm trying to do something cool for my character's development, try to start some in-character party discourse, and trying to set example to other players that you can collaborate with the DM to do cool stuff on your own, and that's how he plays it off? Had I known it would be played for laughs, I'd have just skipped the 5 minute solo adventure, instead of looking like a selfish jerk or fool just for a joke.

This guy has said, mid-session and I'm front of the table,
"Wow, my friend was right, I'm really not ready for this"
When I 'derailed him' by initiating a negotiation that was scripted into the Encounter anyway - although maybe he lacked the reading comprehension to notice that part.

The thing is, I like this group of players, they're all really cool people and seem to genuinely want to be there (they keep showing up for his crapsack attempt at a gig). It's just doing them a disservice, it seem, to let them keep thinking that this kind of rail-roading, dull, non-RPing, slog is what D&D is all about. I'd like to keep playing with them, but kind of want to run the DM out on a rail.

What should I do? I'm afraid that if I try to pull him aside, he'll just resent me (he seems that napoleon-complex, chronically awkward teenage type). If I try to start a new campaign, I risk turning the whole group against me at worst, or finding that they can only play on "his" Saturday night at best. I don't really want to leave because as I've said - I like the group and want them to have a good D&D experience.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I'm afraid that if I try to pull him aside, he'll just resent me (he seems that napoleon-complex, chronically awkward teenage type).

From what else you've said, it sounds like this course of action would be best for everyone. Maybe look for a thin-ended wedge that can move him aside without appearing to push?

Like, when he mentions how he was not prepared for something, offer to rotate the DM seat or do a one-shot next week to 'take the pressure off.' Or something.

[Gastronomie]

Some people are simply not suited for DM'ing. They wouldn't level up no matter what happens to him. If the guy is one such dude, only way is to have someone else be the DM.

Others have the potential, but suffer from lack of experience and the knowledge that can be easily gained by looking at good DMs.

Either way, having someone else step up and declare himself DM for a one-shot is the best option. If you're lucky, the guy might even realize he's bad and leave the job to the others in the future.

[Knaight]

DMing is a skill, it will come with time - with that said, it's also generally learned slowly. Sitting through the rest of the campaign is probably the best option - then, when the entire campaign has been finished offer to take a turn running a campaign, and phrase it as running a campaign. You're not taking over DMing duties, you're not becoming the new DM, you're running a campaign with the full intent of passing the DM torch off to someone else (not necessarily the first DM) afterwards.

[Sir cryosin]

Everybody here has Givin you excellent advice. And I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here. Most DM love just being a player I mean who doesn't. So just have a little chat with him and say look I really like this group you include. But I see that your struggling with amount of hard work that comes along with being a DM. Is there anything I can help with just let me know. Explain to him that if he feels he's forgetting something or can't remember a rule just ask me no one can remember everything. And if you ever just want to play I don't mind running a campaign. And afterwards you can DM again. Just don't be confrontational you a gentle tone when talking but not mocling gentle like you would a baby. I think he will be more cooperative if he told him self wow my friend was right I wasnt ready to dm. But then again I'm not there to read his body language or personality. And I'm only making a judgement on one sentence.

Anyway good luck.

[Ashdate]

I'm of two minds about this. Yes it sounds like he's not a great DM, but counterpoint:

DMing is *hard.* It's not just about all the rules, it's about keeping multiple things (inc. things your players aren't supposed to know) straight in your head, trying to nudge your players towards the plot when necessary, and a heavy dose of improvisation. I've been DMing for about 5 years and I certainly can't say that I don't screw up from time to time.

(And don't even get me started on pronouncing some of stupid names in this game. I share your DM's pain.)

* * *

I've played with bad DMs. I was getting swamped at school, so one of my players decided he could fill in DMing his own game to give me a break. It was entirely a "travel from point a to point b, fight the recommended about of encounters along the way" kind of game. A train wreck from an improvisation perspective, but it was 4e so all the combat was at least interesting. We ended up going from level 3 to about level 12 if I recall.

My favourite (?) memory is when our party, about an hour into what are normally three hour sessions, came to a walled city. We mouthed off to the guards at the gate so they denied us entry. OK. We decide to climb the wall.

The DM thought for a couple of minutes and decided... To end the session there so he could think about what happens next. We were flabbergasted. Next session the cumulation of having a week to think about it was... We fought some wall golems. And then proceeded as normal.

* * *

My story isn't to say that at the end, our temporary DM had escaped the cocoon and became a butterfly. No he was still terrible at it! But we gave him a chance, gave feedback when he asked it, and made our own fun when necessary. And even if it was a train wreck at times, D&D can't be D&D without a DM, and there are far too few who are willing to tackle that role than to have fun as a player.

My suggestion would be this: get the group to see if your DM will take some feedback at the end of each session. DO NOT use this as an excuse to dump criticism on the poor guy. Roll off and have ONE player give ONE suggestion (I.e. "could you try mixing in an additional combatant each encounter to make combats more challenging?" or "I'd really like to use my PC's social skills. Can you work some roleplaying in each session if possible?") he can take back with him for next game.

Heck, turn it into a regular thing at your table, no matter who DMs! Might just do that myself...

[Laserlight]

My suggestion would be this: get the group to see if your DM will take some feedback at the end of each session. DO NOT use this as an excuse to dump criticism on the poor guy. Roll off and have ONE player give ONE suggestion (I.e. "could you try mixing in an additional combatant each encounter to make combats more challenging?" or "I'd really like to use my PC's social skills. Can you work some roleplaying in each session if possible?") he can take back with him for next game.

In theory I agree with this, but long experience suggests is that most people will not listen to advice unless they ask for it. And many won't take it even if they do ask for it--I've actually had one person flat out say "I only want advice if it agrees with what I want to do". That's not to say you shouldn't offer it, but don't be too disappointed if it doesn't have much effect.

I concur with the suggestions to tactfully ease him to the player side. I've had success with "I'd like to run a one-shot for a couple of weeks"--with Halloween coming up, you have the perfect occasion--or "I was wondering if you'd like a break from DMing so you can run a character for a while?"

[Knaight]

I concur with the suggestions to tactfully ease him to the player side. I've had success with "I'd like to run a one-shot for a couple of weeks"--with Halloween coming up, you have the perfect occasion--or "I was wondering if you'd like a break from DMing so you can run a character for a while?"

That might actually be doable - asking about running a horror one shot on or near Halloween would be one of the ways of getting a game in without giving the impression that you're trying to initiate a takeover.

[Herobizkit]

The only way to learn is by DMing. Watching others DM only gets you so far. :)

[CaptainSarathai]

The only way to learn is by DMing. Watching others DM only gets you so far. :)
True, and I remember when I first started DMing in Highschool. I played characters all throughout college. I was tagged to DM for another group and knew that what I'd done in HS wasn't going to cut it. I started looking for better DMs - looking at GitP, AngryGM, watching Nerdarchy, Dawnforged, etc.
Watching others might only get you so far, but you can at least start at that level.


That might actually be doable - asking about running a horror one shot on or near Halloween would be one of the ways of getting a game in without giving the impression that you're trying to initiate a takeover.
I thought about that, but we meet bi-weekly and don't meet again until after Halloween. Plus, a few players said they didn't want to play a horror campaign whenever he was asking us about the next one.
I'm running a horror 1-shot at another location this weekend though, so at least I get a break from playing (how often do you say that?)


DMing is a skill, it will come with time - with that said, it's also generally learned slowly. Sitting through the rest of the campaign is probably the best option
I plan to sit through the rest of LMoP, at least. He plans to start over at Lv1 for his campaign, so I think that if we're going to hand-off DMing, that's the best time - the other players don't want to start over, and he won't adjust his campaign, so I might offer to take the party from 5-20, and then he can run his from 1-whatever.
I don't really want to sit through his campaign though, to be honest. As of right now, I don't think the party will make it through. My girlfriend plays at the table as one of the first-timers, and I'm trying to stay positive and be helpful, but after our last game she said she was bored with the whole thing. Same complaints - she can't hear him, she got to make one attack roll in a 4hr session and about 2 rolls besides, etc. I've seen it in the other players too, were going to drop from 6 down to 3 if this keeps up. Not fatal, but I'd rather these people not leave.

I think the plan will be to sit through LMoP, and then offer to the party at the end of a session, to DM us from 5+. They're just new though, and don't know me as a DM, so I don't know if they realize that this guy is doing something wrong, or just think that yep, this is D&D and it's surprisingly dull.

[Squiddish]

I had this problem my first time. I don't think I've met anyone who's a good DM on their first campaign. My advice is to stick with him and give him suggestions. Start subtle and in character, but branch out.

The starter set is honestly more important to the DM than to the players. Playing a character is relatively simple. DMing is HARD.

[MrStabby]

Yeah I agree.

I made (and still make) lots of mistakes DMing. Even then I was lucky to have seen others take the role before me and had a chance to avoid the mistakes i saw.

Yes it sucks, yes there are problems but there is a lot to learn and experience WILL help.

Given that the DM acknowledged they were unprepared it sounds like they are open to improving - things should get substantially better. Support them, get them to discuss what they were aiming for and help them. Knowing what they are aiming for in an encounter/session is important so you know if the parts they have trouble with are the aims or the execution.

As for voice acting, it isn't strictly needed if there is enough other characterisation and scene setting - they need a bit of time to learn what their strengths are and how to play to them.

[Linker2k]

1) Talk to the DM, he admitted he is not ready, offer to become the DM instead (if you can complain you need to be ready to take the reins) add your current DM as a PC, you are now the DM, be all you can be :smallamused:.

2) Leave the table, if you are not happy, you are most likely taking from everyone's joy, if you are the only experienced one, you are the only one not having fun.

3)Stay at the table and shut up, try to enjoy, play with the DMs rules, help him (after sessions), he will learn eventually.


:smallconfused:

[TrinculoLives]

It does sound as though you need to try and get things to change and not just it through the rest of the adventure. A player who isn't having fun isn't going to be fun for anyone else either.

I quit my first group because I wasn't having fun and was being disruptive to the rest of the party and causing people stress. Not that it sounds as though you're being disruptive, of course, but a player who isn't enjoying themselves lowers the level of fun at the table for everyone else too.

[BW022]

Captain,

You didn't need the long details. Easy enough just to say "He is a poor DM and it appears he lacks skill and experience. How should I approach this?"

I would start with asking three questions.

1. Are the other players enjoying this? Probably not, but they may not care about the issue which bother you.

2. Is someone else available to DM? Either you, another player, or some other person. Can you find someone willing to take over by asking the group, yourself, the store, clubs, Adventurer's League, etc. If not, your choice is him or nothing. Is not playing better than playing with him as the DM?

3. Can he realistically learn? This is something you need to ask yourself. I am getting the sense "No" by your answers. However, if you look at more extreme help, would that work?

All DMs need to learn ... even if to get to the point they realize they aren't good at it. Given how hard it is to find a good DM (or any DM), I think players owe it to themselves to do what they reasonable can to help 'train' DMs. As such, my advice...

Start by asking the other players to confirm you are all not enjoying him DMing. If he arranged this at a store... then you'll need to let the owner/organizer know. Next, arrange for another DM to be ready to step in if needed. Finally, approach him as a group. Let him know that he appears to be struggling and offer him *insane* amounts of help. Offer to take time to go through the rules with him on some other nights, entire sessions of 'mock' combats (slowly going through rules), co-DMs, another DM to step in while he plays, give him links to YouTube videos, links to the world, by him a setting book, etc. Ask him if that would help him. If he says "No" to everything, then switch to another DM, but invite him to remain as a player.

[Laserlight]

It appears to me that the problem OP has is not so much "how do I help the DM get better", but "how do we avoid losing the players who are getting a bad impression of D&D from this DM". Waiting until the end of the campaign may not be a good solution.

[CaptainSarathai]

It appears to me that the problem OP has is not so much "how do I help the DM get better", but "how do we avoid losing the players who are getting a bad impression of D&D from this DM". Waiting until the end of the campaign may not be a good solution.

Yes.
To be entirely honest (and admittedly somewhat selfish) I am at the point where if it comes to letting him finish his campaign, I'll probably bail. This is acceptable to me; I'm currently driving an hour 1way to get there. I can DM locally, I can get a group of 3 players together without much effort.
This group is already together, clicking very well and they're fun to be around. I want them to have a good time, but, as I said: selfish, my gf is at the table, and neither of us are enjoying it much. We come first, and we're fine with leaving.

I don't have an issue with finding a way to tell him we're stepping out (uh, yeah, umm, work stuff, that's it). I'm trying to decide how best to suggest him taking a back seat. I think the best option was already laid out: just let him know that I'm willing to run a few sessions or whole campaign if he needs some help or would rather just run a character.

[Sigreid]

Yes.
To be entirely honest (and admittedly somewhat selfish) I am at the point where if it comes to letting him finish his campaign, I'll probably bail. This is acceptable to me; I'm currently driving an hour 1way to get there. I can DM locally, I can get a group of 3 players together without much effort.
This group is already together, clicking very well and they're fun to be around. I want them to have a good time, but, as I said: selfish, my gf is at the table, and neither of us are enjoying it much. We come first, and we're fine with leaving.

I don't have an issue with finding a way to tell him we're stepping out (uh, yeah, umm, work stuff, that's it). I'm trying to decide how best to suggest him taking a back seat. I think the best option was already laid out: just let him know that I'm willing to run a few sessions or whole campaign if he needs some help or would rather just run a character.

Don't do the wimp cop out if you decide to leave. Nicely tell him that it's not what you're looking for in a game. If he asks why, then that's an opening to still nicely tell him what things have been an issue for you. If he doesn't ask, you get to leave gracefully while still giving him a push to think about things.

[CaptainSarathai]

That's fair. No sweat of mine at that point

[Sabeta]

1) Become the guy who knows all of the rules, and point them out if you deviate. It can be annoying, yes, but if the DM says "I don't want to do it that way" then just leave it at that. Unless it's something potentially gamebreaking such as always having advantage if you're "behind" an enemy. I've seen that one a lot, and Rogue's love nothing more than free advantage every turn.

2) Unfortunately, nothing you can do here. He'll either get better at it with time or always suck at it, but in the end it's "his" adventure.

3) Force it. You already have inside knowledge of where certain people are supposed to be, so find a way to talk to them. If you get something stupid and/or simple like "Go to point B." then ask them HOW they know that. You could also start of conversations with things like "How is your day going" or "What do you think of the Redbrands." This will force a small amount of participation on your DMs part, and if tries to dodge the question then start seriously interrogating the NPC. Ask them why they don't want to talk about how they know that. Your DM will either adlib something or shut down.

4) Same as above. Try to force the personality out of them by asking pointed questions. Why did they become this character instead of another. If that doesn't work, start commenting on it in-character. "For a town overrun with thugs you all sounds strangely bored. Are sure this is actually a problem that merits the attention of Baljorn the Magnificent?"

5) To be fair, common english doesn't include many of those words. It's not unusual to not know how to read or pronounce them on your first go-round. Especially the fantasy names. He'll probably improve reading comprehension with time.

6) Same as 4. Comment on how weak the enemies are and how you wish they would put up a fight. He might get the picture sooner or later.

7) Go Chaotic Evil and completely derail the campaign if the above 6 don't happen by the end of it. It's not the worst thing that could happen, and he may end up forced to think about how to handle his evil players. Chances are you'll meet a swift end because lol-army shows up, but at least now he's being creative.

8-10) None of that seems that terrible to me, really. Even the bit with the Nothic's book isn't really that bad. It's probably the most creative thing he's done if the rest of your story is to be believed, and if the players got a chuckle out of it then that's fine too. Plus, you should never bank on players doing what you want. Here's my last session in a nutshell.

My hero died last session and in my most recent one I rolled up a LG Paladin of the Ancients. We're playing PotA, and basically the PCs have not just murdered a member of Red Larch, but also "joined" the Water Cult in order to gain information. (well...to be fair that was all me. The rest of the players are content to be murder-hobos and just went along with my players schemes). So my Paladin was hired by the constable of Red Larch to investigate the murder since he couldn't figure it out. Because of a few choices we made in the murder I was able to identify the heroes as suspects, and managed to follow them to the Rivergard Keep, where I used a familiar to spy on them and learn that they're working with the Water Cult.

So naturally I challenge them as soon as they leave. I list of the crimes they are accused of, and ask for their defense.
"Yeah we joined the water cult and killed the Stoneworker girl, but she was evil anyways."

My intent was that they would try to defend themselves. Granted, there was a small team of water-cult guys with them, but I was expecting them to be like "you have it all wrong. She attacked us first and we simply defended ourselves. She's with the so-and-so cult." which could have lead to some RP as I questioned their motives and eventually learned of the stakes at hand, defeated the false allies, and then moved on with our lives. Instead, I'm a LG Paladin whose meeting a group of CE Cultists. So I attack, and probably could have taken down most of them alone if I hadn't fudged a Wisdom Save against Confusion.

But no, it doesn't end there. I go down, and the players then to decide start stabbing me to force failed Death Saves. Thankfully the DM intervened and had one of the CE Cultists decide he wanted me alive for questioning (he believed I was a member of a rival cult and wanted information), which ended up being a railroaded conversation to get me into the party.

[moveable feats]

Almost every social problem in life is solved by being polite and direct and this one is no different.