DragonLance? anyone running, what to do about knights?

[Corsair14]

I am changing and expanding my campaign to be a dark version of Dragonlance involving cults and old ones. Cant figure out what to do about Solamnic/Nereka Knights as the campaign setting doesnt have paladins. So how do I incorporate the six orders of knighthood into the campaign? Just call them paladins with funny names?

[Occasional Sage]

Why must one be a paladin to be a Knight? A fighter can take an oath and uphold a code of conduct just as well, on both a mechanical and roleplaying front.

[Kish]

What's your goal here? Accurately simulate the world of the novels? (Solamnic Knights are basic fighters who never use magic and don't much care for it; Knights of Takhisis are three custom classes which you should deliberately make more powerful than any of the standard classes, one of which clerics as well as a cleric and one of which wizards as well as a wizard, both in addition to pretty good fighting abilities.) Update the Dragonlance campaign setting to 5ed? Just use paladins for all of them.

[DivisibleByZero]

I am changing and expanding my campaign to be a dark version of Dragonlance involving cults and old ones. Cant figure out what to do about Solamnic/Nereka Knights as the campaign setting doesnt have paladins. So how do I incorporate the six orders of knighthood into the campaign? Just call them paladins with funny names?

Well, they were never necessarily Paladins in the first place.
If your game doesn't have Paladins, that's fine. The Knights are Fighters (or multiclass with a caster for certain orders). Not only is that reasonable for your game, it's also true to the source material.

[Sigreid]

Well, I will point out that in earlier editions the knights of salami were in deed paladins if they were of the order of the crown or rose. If, however, you prefer not to go that route, SCAG has the purple dragon knights that might be what you are looking for.

[DivisibleByZero]

Well, I will point out that in earlier editions the knights of salami were in deed paladins if they were of the order of the crown or rose.

In 3e, yes.
In 2e (which was the "source material" I was referring to, as that was the edition when the setting came to be), no. And after the fall of Istar, there were no such things as Paladins for many centuries, and yet the Orders carried on.

[Sigreid]

In 3e, yes.
In 2e (which was the "source material" I was referring to, as that was the edition when the setting came to be), no. And after the fall of Istar, there were no such things as Paladins for many centuries, and yet the Orders carried on.

Been a long time since I have looked at the 2e book, but thinking on it now I seem to recall that the knights were their own class, and as you leveled up you started gaining paladin like powers. (some spell casting etc.)

[Zaydos]

Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide has a Fighter subclass for Purple Dragon Knights that it calls out as being what the Knights of Solamnia would use. I don't really like the archetype (gets some proficiencies, and not called it but funtionally expertise in persuasion iirc, ability to share Action Surge/Second Wind/Indomitable with allies in a limited fashion) but it's there (actually sharing 2nd Wind with allies might be of significant value in Krynn before the War of the Lance even if it was only something like 3 hp to all allies).

In 2e however they did have this awkward dual-classing like mechanic where at 3rd level you could switch from Order of the Crown to Order of the Sword (which was in effect switching from Fighter to Paladin but with lower ability requirements and better casting {all the way to 7th level spells}), in 5e this would be represented by multiclassing into Cleric or just playing a Paladin. Order of the Rose (the highest)... was sort of pointless (it didn't get spells or paladin abilities). Actually seriously it was pointless, and required you to defeat someone more powerful than you in single combat... while trading Paladin abilities and progressing your Spellcasting for... Immunity to fear which I thought even in 2e Paladins got.

For the knights of Neraka I'd say you'd use War Clerics or Paladins of some sort, Eldritch Knights, and Fighters.

[Sigreid]

For the knights of Neraka I'd say you'd use War Clerics or Paladins of some sort, Eldritch Knights, and Fighters.

I thought the Knights of Neraka were more of fighter/rogue wizard. So Eldritch Knight multi-classed to wizard?

[Zaydos]

I thought the Knights of Neraka were more of fighter/rogue wizard. So Eldritch Knight multi-classed to wizard?

Was going off decade+ old memories of the story that introduced them, and none were rogue-esque in it. Wiki-ing, the Knights of the Thorn were wizards not Fighter-Mages or Thief-Mages but dedicated full blown, robe wearing wizards. The Knights of the Lily were pure melee. The Knights of the Skull were Clerics (weapon restrictions, divine magic).

[Sigreid]

Was going off decade+ old memories of the story that introduced them, and none were rogue-esque in it. Wiki-ing, the Knights of the Thorn were wizards not Fighter-Mages or Thief-Mages but dedicated full blown, robe wearing wizards. The Knights of the Lily were pure melee. The Knights of the Skull were Clerics (weapon restrictions, divine magic).

This is what I get for commenting on a setting I was never that fond of and haven't dealt with in decades. :smallsmile:

[CaptainSarathai]

Much, much easier to just change the Orders, than to try and set up the class or modify existing classes.

[Safety Sword]

In 3e, yes.
In 2e (which was the "source material" I was referring to, as that was the edition when the setting came to be), no. And after the fall of Istar, there were no such things as Paladins for many centuries, and yet the Orders carried on.

There were also no clerics at all after the fall of the Kingpriest.

It's not a lack of paladins in the setting, it's a complete lack of divine magic of any sort at that stage.

[Corsair14]

Thanks for the assistance. I think I will have any character that wants to go the route of knight be a squire of either main order than then require a class change, likely with a good deal of RP to go along with it. The campaign as I imagine it so far takes place in a dragon army occupied area but in a backwater area with a token Nereka presence. They will exist but as I see it right now, they wont be the primary or even secondary point of the campaign.

[DivisibleByZero]

There were also no clerics at all after the fall of the Kingpriest.

It's not a lack of paladins in the setting, it's a complete lack of divine magic of any sort at that stage.

Clearly.
But my point was that requiring Paladin for the Orders would be false and gamist. There were no Paladins, and yet the Orders still carried on, so obviously Paladins were not the only Knights.

[Mikey P]

I would simply treat the Knights of Solamnia as an organization, not a class.

It might be a fun exercise to create a custom Fighter and Paladin Archetypes for added flavor, but it's certainly not required.

[Sigreid]

Clearly.
But my point was that requiring Paladin for the Orders would be false and gamist. There were no Paladins, and yet the Orders still carried on, so obviously Paladins were not the only Knights.

Well, it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the knights still had to hold to the proper codes and requirements and that when the gods returned the knights that really did live up to the ideals would find themselves suddenly blessed with miraculous power.

[Safety Sword]

Clearly.
But my point was that requiring Paladin for the Orders would be false and gamist. There were no Paladins, and yet the Orders still carried on, so obviously Paladins were not the only Knights.

At the point where there were Knights of Takhisis/Neraka however the Gods would have resumed the struggle for power on the material plane, so... I guess the timing is really important.

However, one of the most famous knights (Sturm Brightblade) had no no divine powers and seemed to do do well enough until he was stabbed through the heart by his dragon riding kind of half-sister (see: It's complicated).

Knight doesn't have to be a class, it's an ideal (not the ideal section on your character sheet necessarily).


Well, it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that the knights still had to hold to the proper codes and requirements and that when the gods returned the knights that really did live up to the ideals would find themselves suddenly blessed with miraculous power.

Actually, the real knights were incredibly detested due to the breaking of their oaths of protection and service. They were hiding in the countryside hiding under pain of death upon discovery. The actual institutions themselves were incredibly corrupt and self-serving individuals had risen to the higher echelons of power. (See: They were real jerks, cool moustaches though...)

[Sigreid]

At the point where there were Knights of Takhisis/Neraka however the Gods would have resumed the struggle for power on the material plane, so... I guess the timing is really important.

However, one of the most famous knights (Sturm Brightblade) had no no divine powers and seemed to do do well enough until he was stabbed through the heart by his dragon riding kind of half-sister (see: It's complicated).

Knight doesn't have to be a class, it's an ideal (not the ideal section on your character sheet necessarily).



Actually, the real knights were incredibly detested due to the breaking of their oaths of protection and service. They were hiding in the countryside hiding under pain of death upon discovery. The actual institutions themselves were incredibly corrupt and self-serving individuals had risen to the higher echelons of power. (See: They were real jerks, cool moustaches though...)

Well, if I remember right, Strum was lying about being a knight. Holding that lie in your heart would be more than enough to ban you from being a paladin.

You are right that in general institutions shouldn't be "classes". I'd say that for knights raised as knights most would be warrior NPCs. For player characters and special NPCs they would be champion fighters, battle master fighters and paladins as they are the classes that meet the heavy armor and weapon proficiency requirements. Beyond that my point was that there would be some in the order that being raised on tales of heroism would grow up to be true believers and when divine magic returned, some of them would find themselves suddenly empowered. Similarly, while most clergymen would not be truly devout, and some would be flat out scum; when the gods returned some of the worthy would find they were fully powered clerics.

I hope that makes sense.

[Safety Sword]

Well, if I remember right, Strum was lying about being a knight. Holding that lie in your heart would be more than enough to ban you from being a paladin.

You are right that in general institutions shouldn't be "classes". I'd say that for knights raised as knights most would be warrior NPCs. For player characters and special NPCs they would be champion fighters, battle master fighters and paladins as they are the classes that meet the heavy armor and weapon proficiency requirements. Beyond that my point was that there would be some in the order that being raised on tales of heroism would grow up to be true believers and when divine magic returned, some of them would find themselves suddenly empowered. Similarly, while most clergymen would not be truly devout, and some would be flat out scum; when the gods returned some of the worthy would find they were fully powered clerics.

I hope that makes sense.

Total sense.

You're also right about Sturm. He was rejected by the knights because of his father's actions. Turns out he just decided to live like a knight should and literally saved the knighthood before his death.

[Occasional Sage]

However, one of the most famous knights (Sturm Brightblade) had no no divine powers and seemed to do do well enough until he was stabbed through the heart by his dragon riding kind of half-sister (see: It's complicated).


Childhood friend, yes. Halfish sister, no. Sturm is unrelated to her; you're thinking of the Majere twins.

[Safety Sword]

Childhood friend, yes. Halfish sister, no. Sturm is unrelated to her; you're thinking of the Majere twins.

I was under the impression they all lived together at some stage under the Brightblade roof, not sure where I got that from.

I knew that she was half-sister to the twinses (Read in a Smegal voice). It's been a while since I read those trilogies...

[Sigreid]

So another thought I've had is that I might allow a paladin high enough level to cast find steed to instead bond with a young dragon as a mount. To be clear, this wouldn't be a celestial spirit, but a living dragon and if it dies, you don't get a special mount anymore.