Dwarf Stonecunning and elf's secret door spot

[Keral]

Hi!

I was trying to understand how these two abilities work:


A hill dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a hill dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can.


An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.

Does this mean that the gm can do the search roll himself and only say something if something is found, or is it more like "hey, there might be something there, do me a search roll".

I'm asking because if the second is true then all the party is going to spam search rolls and the secret passage could be found by someone other than the elf or dwarf.


Edit: also, our dwarf implied that if there is a stonework trap he should sense it a be allowed a search check, but by reading the quoted bit it just seems that he could find them if he actually tries searching, not that he is entitled a search check if he passes near. Or is it just the srd paraphrasing it?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'd roll them behind the screen, especially for elves, because they're supposed to be secret doors, after all. If a dwarf encounters stonework the player deems unusual, they may get a free Search check, if they can argue that they should (I'd be liberal in this, because it's a pretty dwarfy ability). Elves won't know when to roll, but they can, of course, walk around the walls of a room to check for doors (and then you should probably make some dummy rolls, if you don't want to meta-clue your players in on the absence/presence of doors).

As for your second question: The rogue ability simply allows them to find well-hidden traps, with Search DCs higher than 20. That means hill dwarves don't auto-fail if the DC to find the trap is over 20, but they can still fail regularly, by not meeting the DC.

[Keral]

As for your second question: The rogue ability simply allows them to find well-hidden traps, with Search DCs higher than 20. That means hill dwarves don't auto-fail if the DC to find the trap is over 20, but they can still fail regularly, by not meeting the DC.


So he is the one that has to actively decide when to search for the traps then? Because he implied it worked the same as with the elf's door thing, meaning that if he walks near them he has to know and search for them...

[Necroticplague]

Does this mean that the gm can do the search roll himself and only say something if something is found, or is it more like "hey, there might be something there, do me a search roll".

I'm asking because if the second is true then all the party is going to spam search rolls and the secret passage could be found by someone other than the elf or dwarf.


Edit: also, our dwarf implied that if there is a stonework trap he should sense it a be allowed a search check, but by reading the quoted bit it just seems that he could find them if he actually tries searching, not that he is entitled a search check if he passes near. Or is it just the srd paraphrasing it?

It's the first one. You make the roll in secret, and they get the roll passively, instead of having to actively go 'oh hey, rolling search to check'.

And the dwarf is right. If you come within 10 feet of a stonework trap, you roll Search, as if they had actively looked for it. Anyone can find the trap with a Search check, they just get one check automatically if they get close.

[Gruftzwerg]

to put it simple and clear:

Normally you have passive rolls for "Spot" (DM roll) and active rolls for search (PC roll). Which means that the players need to actively say that they are searching (and what! sure they can say they search for everything, but that should take more time than searching for specific things).

In the case of the Dwarf & Elf abilities, they get passive search rolls for the mentioned things (DM roll). They don't need to pay attention and say that they are actively searching, it's automatized. Further it takes no action/time, since it's passive (like with spot, there is no time involved).

[Keral]

okay, I think I got it, thanks!

The passive roll happens once per thing to find, right? If they pass dc good, if not nothing?

[ExLibrisMortis]

okay, I think I got it, thanks!

The passive roll happens once per thing to find, right? If they pass dc good, if not nothing?
Yep. No retries, though if the situation changes (e.g. something damages the unusual stonework, or they get a +10 bonus to Search they didn't have before), they can probably retry.

[druid91]

Personally I would say every time they pass the spot from a particular direction.

So once for north, once for south, once for east, and once for west.

[Gruftzwerg]

okay, I think I got it, thanks!

The passive roll happens once per thing to find, right? If they pass dc good, if not nothing?

normally the passive is done once / encounter. So if he passes "later" the spot again, he could get a passive retry (DM roll & decision).
But he still has his normal "active" search check where they get the same bonus on their roll (PC roll).

[erok0809]

Personally, I don't mind telling the players to roll Search themselves. It qualifies as a house rule I think, but the way I think of these things is like a "Spidey Sense" for secret doors/traps; when they walk by, they get a tingle on their neck that says there's a secret door/trap here. They might not be able to find the opening or mechanism if they fail their Search check, but they do know that there's something secret there, and can communicate that to their party so their party can give searching a try. It gives the party more chances to find the secret thing, which is something I want as a DM, so the dice have less of a chance of making the party fail. If the DC isn't too high, more rolls means more chance of them succeeding.

[Mordaedil]

As erok says, I'd usually announce having them roll, usually making the dummy being having everyone roll, but only using the elf's check result to verify against the DC. They'd just assume I was putting them on high alert and that is fine. If one of the players roll unusually high, I'd have them notice cobwebs in the ceiling or something to throw them off, if the elf failed.

[Keral]

Thank you for all your valuable input.

I would agree to let everyone know, but the dwarf in question has been relying too much on him being told there is something and having others make the actual roll, since his search and spot are terribly low.

I'll try rolling passively and see what happens for a while :P

[Khedrac]

If they want to roll (as it is their skill) get 10 or so search rolls from the player at the start of the session and cross them off each time they qualify for a passive search check.
That way they get to make the rolls, but they don't knwo when they are used thus no triggering the other characters trying to search.

The other option, which I have had players request, is for passive searches to be a "take 10".

[FatherTime]

In what 5e tome does it state:
An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.

I am unable to find this in the PH or the DMG - *-Note I have first prints of both.

FatherTime

[AnonymousPepper]

1. Holy thread necro, Batman!

2. This is the 3.5/Pathfinder board, my guy.