help, last character died!!!

[D&DPrinceTandem]

when i say last guy dead i mean he's dead. like it was more rocks fall you die, dead. Dm could handle the character and i don't blame, i wouldn't be able to control a charge build either but that's done so on to its replacement.


Hoshio aruku (the one who walks the stars)
lvl 6, gestalt, +18 split or all together to stats, 3la by-off automatically
race: Vasharan(death knight)(spellstiched) OR human(necropolitan)(spell-stiched)(evolved)
class: (G) dread necromancer/cleric(some elder evil) 5, tainted scholar(sssshhhhh)/dread witch 1
abilitys: rolls were 18,17,16,16,14,14
Str: 20/5
Dex:14/2
Con: - (undead)
Int:16/3
Wis:20/5
Cha:38/19
taint score:76(/33 my casting ability score)
[SPOILER=|feats|]flaw: fell frighten
flaw:Willing defomity
Vasharan: Adomidale form
reginal(faruen):dreadful wrath (PGtF 38)
Dread necromancer: greatsword pro (PH)
vile(elder evil<idk)
vile(elder evil<idk)
taint:
taint:
taint:imperious command (DotU 50)
1lvl:
3lvl:item familar (rune blade)
6lvl:truebond

My character has gone through the calling so it has a imensly stong weapon and blind sight
THE CALLING(Runeblade is a +1 greatsword with a hilt made from a rod of undead mastery[always in affect]
Also it can shape into a staff of pestilence, +1 greatsword with vampiric and is always coated with devil blood, and, a +1 greatsword with icy burst and is made of Stygian ice with a save dc= to half my taint score)
THE CALLING( imp blindsight permanency
starting with 1300gp
dragonheart tomb 1000gp
i dont know what to do with the rest?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Um, if your DM can't control a charger build, why are you playing gestalt, with free LA +3, artifact, and taint rules? That makes absolutely no sense.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

idk maybe had some thing to do with 3000 Dmg per hit and g cleave and huge size but effectively gargantuan
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Inevitability]

Your game seems to be very high-power (to the point that even 3000 damage per hit should be expected), so why did your DM fiat your character out of existence?

I think some details on the game may help us help you.

[Jarmen4u]

I was in a game like this on roll20 before. Rules were 15th level, free +4 LA, appropriate WBL, all books allowed. I went with an Ironsoul Forgemaster, since it's a class I've always wanted to play. One other member was new, and just played a druid, but I guess she was friends with the DM, because she had an adult dragon as her companion.

The other 3 players' characters were so over the top broken that I'm still convinced they were cheating (I found out that one of them was). I'm talking +40 to hit, multiple times, AC in the 60s, all stats in the 20s, immunity to nearly everything, etc. The game ended after a few sessions of the DM not understanding the power level. We even killed the questgiver, who was Asmodeus. (My character's idea, he was good aligned. It was a Demons vs Devils theme, and we were apparently supposed to side with the devils.)

Anyway, my opinion is this: it seems like this is the DM's first time using Gestalt, or perhaps he just wants a really high-powered game. Either way, he doesn't understand the sheer amount of power he's given his players. Many people here know that charger builds can easily be countered by a clever DM, but this one doesn't seem to have system mastery. All I can say is, either try to help him (not the best idea), make a weaker character in line with everyone else's (assuming theirs aren't over the top as well), or just quit.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

i killed his acient green dragon with a critical charge and the ceiling fell and i caught it . the rest of the party got out
i told the dm my next character will have less focused on battle and more focused on rp( hense intimade the crap out of everything)
i also told him it would be undead and very WoW death knight like
he said i could have the calling for my next build since it was undead and i could build my own weapon around the 3 specs for a dk, so i did.
i need help with the feat though any suggestions?

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Anyway, my opinion is this: it seems like this is the DM's first time using Gestalt, or perhaps he just wants a really high-powered game. Either way, he doesn't understand the sheer amount of power he's given his players. Many people here know that charger builds can easily be countered by a clever DM, but this one doesn't seem to have system mastery. All I can say is, either try to help him (not the best idea), make a weaker character in line with everyone else's (assuming theirs aren't over the top as well), or just quit.

hes not new to gestalt ( he's been in one and you could barley tell the difference that it was), the characters in this one are far from normal power, the only real thing that makes them signifacntly weaker than this character is that they are good aligned and i can not play good aligned. the game is fun and just beacause one of my characters died shouldn't be a reason to quit. it just a reason to re-think combat vs role-play.:elan:


The other 3 players' characters were so over the top broken that I'm still convinced they were cheating (I found out that one of them was). I'm talking +40 to hit, multiple times, AC in the 60s, all stats in the 20s, immunity to nearly everything, etc. The game ended after a few sessions of the DM not understanding the power level. We even killed the questgiver, who was Asmodeus. (My character's idea, he was good aligned. It was a Demons vs Devils theme, and we were apparently supposed to side with the devils.)

seems a lot like my campaign but not lvl 15 and nobody is cheating i to have a newbie in my group also were trying to kill lolth(loth) unless my dm does some kind of plot twist

[Jarmen4u]

hes not new to gestalt ( he's been in one and you could barley tell the difference that it was), the characters in this one are far from normal power, the only real thing that makes them signifacntly weaker than this character is that they are good aligned and i can not play good aligned. the game is fun and just beacause one of my characters died shouldn't be a reason to quit. it just a reason to re-think combat vs role-play.:elan:

I didn't mean to quit because you lost your character. I meant that if the DM can't handle the power level of the players, then the game will most likely fall apart, and it might be a good idea to leave before that happens. Also, why can you not play good-aligned?



seems a lot like my campaign but not lvl 15 and nobody is cheating i to have a newbie in my group also were trying to kill lolth(loth) unless my dm does some kind of plot twist

Well it's an appropriate power level if you're trying to kill off gods, but it seems very likely that if you ever get to Lolth (or whoever unlucky soul is your target), the party will just kill them in a couple rounds.

Here's another idea, based on something that I learned after I DMed for a long time: is he new to DMing in general? Maybe he doesn't understand how to build encounters around the players' strengths. You can't get very far just pulling vanilla monsters out of a manual and throwing them at the party. Like I said above, there are plenty of ways to counter most basic cheese (like uberchargers) with a bit of planning. What kind of ancient dragon doesn't have a reasonable contingency for a really, really strong guy running at it and swinging a sword? That's got to be the first thing on the list of things to defend against, next to Batman wizards. Things like %miss chance, or baleful transposition/polymorph. Imagine charging at the dragon just for your best friend to take his place, just in time for you to slice them in twain.

Now that makes for a good time.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Imagine charging at the dragon just for your best friend to take his place, just in time for you to slice them in twain.

Now that makes for a good time.

bet the elf would have if he new i gonna kill the dragon (vow of peace)
why i can't play a good aligment, well my dm says that if you good and the oppenent asks for forgivness then you have to give them it. CG, LG or NG no matter what. plus i real like playing that one evil guy in the group that sacrifise his sanity and mortality for his god of whatever.

i'll also tell him about what you learned as a dm it my prove helpful

i like this group and i like testing the dm because he's really good at making a story
plus it not everyday that you find a Lg orc barbarian/paladin with vow of poverty
or a hafling cleric of that one god of thieves /rouge with vow of poverty
or star elf cleric/monk with vow of peace.
fun times

EDIT: so any help on left over feats

[D&DPrinceTandem]

ok so i got it you guys say that the character is to overpowered right:smallsmile:?
to make i weaker i went with this


Race: human(death knight,spellstiched)
Classes: dread necromancer/blattle dancer 5, tainted scholar/kensai 1
Str: 20/5
Dex:14/2
Con: -
Int:16/3
Wis:20/5
Cha:38/19
taint score:76/33

flaw: fell frighten
flaw: combat expertise
Human: weapon focus (greatword:runeblade)
reginal(faruen):dreadful wrath (PGtF 38)
Dread necromancer: greatsword pro (PH)
vile: willing deformity
vile: Adomidale form
taint: Profane life leech
taint:imperious command
1lvl:fell animate
3lvl:item familar (rune blade yup i still have it but i changed some things so..check it out)
6lvl: versitile spellcaster





Greatsword, as the ability to take 4 different aspects at will as a swift action
BASE form:
it is a +1 greatsword with the effects of a rod of undead mastery
blood aspect:
it becomes a +1 vampiric greatsword that is coated in devil blood
Frost aspect:
it becomes a +1 icy burst stygain greatsword with a dc= to 10+cha+1/2lvl
Affliction aspect:
it becomes a +1 corrosive burst greatsword that anyone killed by the weapon in this form is risen as a zombie for the wielder's cha modifier after such it explodes in 1d4 negative energy damage



Yuki was once a farm boy who delighted in the "art" of killing. she liked it so much she killed her family and sacrifised them for power from an unknown but undeniable evil source. the power gifted to her became known as the calling and as she grew older she killed more and more until she learned that she could raise the dead bodies to kill and give tibute to her "god". she did this and found that she wanted to be undead to so she pleaded with the elder evil and after killing and sacrificing a couple (dozen) high clerics of a good church, She became THE Death Knight.

[Inevitability]

ok so i got it you guys say that the character is to overpowered right:smallsmile:?
to make i weaker i went with this


Race: human(death knight,spellstiched)
Classes: dread necromancer/blattle dancer 5, tainted scholar/kensai 1
Str: 20/5
Dex:14/2
Con: -
Int:16/3
Wis:20/5
Cha:38/19
taint score:76/33

flaw: fell frighten
flaw: combat expertise
Human: weapon focus (greatword:runeblade)
reginal(faruen):dreadful wrath (PGtF 38)
Dread necromancer: greatsword pro (PH)
vile: willing deformity
vile: Adomidale form
taint: Profane life leech
taint:imperious command
1lvl:fell animate
3lvl:item familar (rune blade yup i still have it but i changed some things so..check it out)
6lvl: versitile spellcaster





Greatsword, as the ability to take 4 different aspects at will as a swift action
BASE form:
it is a +1 greatsword with the effects of a rod of undead mastery
blood aspect:
it becomes a +1 vampiric greatsword that is coated in devil blood
Frost aspect:
it becomes a +1 icy burst stygain greatsword with a dc= to 10+cha+1/2lvl
Affliction aspect:
it becomes a +1 corrosive burst greatsword that anyone killed by the weapon in this form is risen as a zombie for the wielder's cha modifier after such it explodes in 1d4 negative energy damage



Yuki was once a farm boy who delighted in the "art" of killing. she liked it so much she killed her family and sacrifised them for power from an unknown but undeniable evil source. the power gifted to her became known as the calling and as she grew older she killed more and more until she learned that she could raise the dead bodies to kill and give tibute to her "god". she did this and found that she wanted to be undead to so she pleaded with the elder evil and after killing and sacrificing a couple (dozen) high clerics of a good church, She became THE Death Knight.


Such an original backstory.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Such an original backstory.

i know right. real if i bit off to much of were ever please tell me

got any thing you think i could ad to it or take away

after rereading it i noticed i said she and her but it started out with "Yuki was once a farm boy"

[Mordaedil]

Why was she a farmer at all (farm boy indicates gender and implies a lack of desire to chose profession) she seems like she'd be better cut out as a cultist born in a cult during a ritual where her mother was sacrificed in a blood ritual kind of ordeal.

[Firest Kathon]

Why are you even trying to play a CE undead in a group of Exalted characters? That is not "playing that one evil guy in the group", that is "I just ignore the premise of the game any play whatever I like". I would not expect that character to last five minutes after meeting the group (or the other way round, depending on how it plays out), and certainly not going on an adventure together.

[Inevitability]

Creates overpowered character. ✔
Cliched, trite backstory. ✔
'Rethinking role play versus mechanics' i.e. munchkinning. ✔
Only evil character in a capital-g Good party. ✔
Actions explained as 'testing the DM'. ✔

I believe this is a fine case of That Guy (or That Gal, I suppose).

[CharonsHelper]

So many illegal stuff here even at first glance.

1. The paladin/barbarian ally is impossible. (LG for paladin - non-lawful for barbarian)

2. If there is a paladin - he can't be in the same group with you if you go evil.

[Inevitability]

So many illegal stuff here even at first glance.

1. The paladin/barbarian ally is impossible. (LG for paladin - non-lawful for barbarian)

2. If there is a paladin - he can't be in the same group with you if you go evil.

1. Going lawful as a barbarian only causes you to lose rage, nothing more. It's possible, if somewhat suboptimal.

2. The paladin may not know this character is evil. That said, I doubt it.

[CharonsHelper]

1. Going lawful as a barbarian only causes you to lose rage, nothing more. It's possible, if somewhat suboptimal.

For multi-classing, yes. However, I thought that this was a gesalt, so the levels were gained at the same time.

[ComaVision]

Why is it so common for a DM to run a high-power game and then be unable to handle high-power?

[Inevitability]

Why is it so common for a DM to run a high-power game and then be unable to handle high-power?

Because everyone has different ideas of what 'high power' means. On this forum, the term's meaning is at least somewhat standardized, but individual gaming groups don't necessarily share our view of the term.

[CharonsHelper]

Why is it so common for a DM to run a high-power game and then be unable to handle high-power?

Because it's almost impossible to handle the craziness that super high-power characters can do, and the GMs who can do the legwork and could potentially deal with it generally don't want to deal with it and simply don't allow it?

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Why are you even trying to play a CE undead in a group of Exalted characters? That is not "playing that one evil guy in the group", that is "I just ignore the premise of the game any play whatever I like". I would not expect that character to last five minutes after meeting the group (or the other way round, depending on how it plays out), and certainly not going on an adventure together.

well as sated they won't know they will think shes some kind of goddess (38cha). she will roll a one and beat them. then one by one she will slowly sacrifice them to her god.They won't know. ill have undesernable alignment on permanently for the paladin and the cleric. Theirs no worry about the rouge. i "won't" kill with the vow o peace around and were good.


Why was she a farmer at all (farm boy indicates gender and implies a lack of desire to chose profession) she seems like she'd be better cut out as a cultist born in a cult during a ritual where her mother was sacrificed in a blood ritual kind of ordeal.
well she kinda did that
she was the reaper in the family you know the one with the scythe but then that got to hard so she switched to a greatsword which she found fit very well in peoples necks or even better a sacrificial knife in there gut on top of an altar

and that is why i like playing evil expansively with there rest being divine god give me strength good. well ill tell you how it went on wednesday

[Mordaedil]

Uh, I think I'm good. I don't think I need to read anything more of your character's backstory, it reads as fanfiction I wrote when I was five years old.

[Inevitability]

well as sated they won't know they will think shes some kind of goddess (38cha). she will roll a one and beat them. then one by one she will slowly sacrifice them to her god.They won't know. ill have undesernable alignment on permanently for the paladin and the cleric. Theirs no worry about the rouge. i "won't" kill with the vow o peace around and were good.

The person you were replying to isn't worried about you being found out, the person is worried about the exact thing you say you'll do.

Consider this from the other players' perspective: do you think they like it when their PC's get offed by a teammate? Would you want your PC to be killed in such a way?

[Einselar]

well as sated they won't know they will think shes some kind of goddess (38cha). she will roll a one and beat them. then one by one she will slowly sacrifice them to her god.They won't know. ill have undesernable alignment on permanently for the paladin and the cleric. Theirs no worry about the rouge. i "won't" kill with the vow o peace around and were good.


well she kinda did that
she was the reaper in the family you know the one with the scythe but then that got to hard so she switched to a greatsword which she found fit very well in peoples necks or even better a sacrificial knife in there gut on top of an altar

and that is why i like playing evil expansively with there rest being divine god give me strength good. well ill tell you how it went on wednesday

I.....I don't.....all of this. This isn't cool. No PC wants their character killed of and it seems that you are making a super strong character for the express purpose of killing off your fellow party members. Is there a reason to TPK everyone and leave only you left? Are you forcing everyone to play your story and not the table's? If that's the case, you're going to find you get booted out faster than you can say Mary Sue.

[TheifofZ]

The only time I've ever built a properly Evil character with the implicit goal of killing off the rest of the party by the end of the campaign was after getting it OK-ed by literally everyone else at the table, DM included.
Having said that, this entire concept makes me twitch very slightly.
You're basically aiming to play an Evil Sue into the party and then, all things considered, to be upset when she's inevitably killed off for real due to noone else enjoying playing at the same table.

Suggestion: If you -must- be Evil, figure out a reason not to kill off the party. Maybe they're required for a particular mc'guffin you need to use, or you've grown fond of one or two and those will be upset with you over the others.
Remember that Evil doesn't always crave the destruction of everyone and everything. Even the worst monsters often have someone or something they treasure. Whether the party is that treasure or is the key to that treasure doesn't matter. If you can find a reason to be Evil and let the rest of the party live, it'll probably be more interesting and fun to play than a plain old vanilla 'slaughter them all' evil character. And the rest of the party will be more willing to play along if you can manage that, too.

You say you can't play good, and I can understand that. But you can be evil without being Smite-on-Sight-Capital-E-Evil.

[Exocist]

The only time I've ever built a properly Evil character with the implicit goal of killing off the rest of the party by the end of the campaign was after getting it OK-ed by literally everyone else at the table, DM included.

Seconding this. The only time I've ever tried to kill off the rest of the party, they suspected (out of character) it was probably going to happen for at least 5 levels or so (except this time it was the only good character in the party. The rest had started out Neutral/good and ended up Evil). It also made complete sense when I turned on them at the end of the campaign because of that.

If you just want to make an Evil (moustache-twirling) with the express intent of sacrificing your entire party to satan (or whatever) you should only:

A) Don't sacrifice the PCs to Satan. Do it to some NPCs that you've finished having dealing with for sure. Maybe the PCs will notice and start caring, maybe they won't. Roleplay and pretend you're innocent in this. Often leads to B.

B) Do it as the VERY LAST thing to happen in the campaign. Have yourself be the BBEG #2. The big reveal after killing the 1st BBEG (Who maybe only became a BBEG because your character somehow managed to pin all the blame on him) was that you needed him out of the way for <Insert Whatever> and that now you will take the party's souls and ascend to become a god (or something like that).

[CharonsHelper]

Assuming that this whole thread isn't trolling... you're kind of a jerk. I don't mean that your character is a jerk... I mean that you are.

Your entire character plan is an attempt to screw over everyone else at the table who (I would assume) you are at the very least friendly with in real life.

D&D is a cooperative game. Get on your teamwork hat and join the team.

[Inevitability]

Assuming that this whole thread isn't trolling... you're kind of a jerk. I don't mean that your character is a jerk... I mean that you are.

Account behavior is atypical for a troll. There's been continuous replies from the OP to this thread, and he's also posted in various other threads. Not only that, the threads they replied to are all long-term (I'm talking optimization contests and PbP games), implying he doesn't intend to abandon this account any time soon.

[Einselar]

And so now the thread embarks on it's great quest to cure that guy/gal.

In all seriousness though, Take the above advice. Playing an evil character is always awesome, and if your DM OKs it, being BBEG#2 is really fun. But if you try and make it come out of left field for the DM & the party, don't expect mercy or forgiveness, even on an OOC level. Player will be mad at you. The DM will be surprised and probably mad at you, and getting Zeused will likely ensue because you just took his nice and pretty campaign and TPKed the party, or at least attempted to. In fact, at the first party member dead I personally would concoct a method of killing or removing specifically your character and likely boot you from the group, with very few players dissenting.

Not being able to play the "Good Guy" makes sense. I hate being good as well, and if I must play a Good character (in an exalted campaign or somesuch) it's Chaotic good, where my character has her own justice system and moral values. But that never should translate into betrayal.

Maybe I'm being somewhat heavy-handed in what I'm saying, but I feel it certainly bears repeating. Don't kill the party. Don't be a ****. And may I suggest you read this nifty guide to lawful Evil written by Red Fel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil) or if you're feeling rebellious, the fantastic guide to Chaotic Evil, by Thealtruistorc. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?446414-No-Limits-No-Regrets-A-guide-to-the-Chaotic-Evil-alignment)

Read the above and then rethink your character. you might be surprised by what you scrounge up.

[Red Fel]

And may I suggest you read this nifty guide to lawful Evil written by Red Fel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil)

I feel it...

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg237/Byakuya91/final%20fantasy/diablos.gif

Someone has read from my book.

Now, let's see what's going on here...


when i say last guy dead i mean he's dead. like it was more rocks fall you die, dead. Dm could handle the character and i don't blame, i wouldn't be able to control a charge build either but that's done so on to its replacement.

So, you built an uncontrollable character, DM threw up his hands and killed it. Next!


idk maybe had some thing to do with 3000 Dmg per hit and g cleave and huge size but effectively gargantuan
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

See above. Next!


why i can't play a good aligment, well my dm says that if you good and the oppenent asks for forgivness then you have to give them it. CG, LG or NG no matter what. plus i real like playing that one evil guy in the group that sacrifise his sanity and mortality for his god of whatever.

Limits, chief, always limits. It's totally fun to play an Evil character who will do whatever it takes to meet his objective - within certain limits. And one of those limits is "do not screw over the rest of the party unless the players are totally onboard."

It is less fun to play a blindly zealous whackjob. If you look in various media at the lunatic zealots of blood deities, they're all one-note villains - boring and unimpressive. They're not fun. They're not compelling. They're just nuts, and that's dull.


i'll also tell him about what you learned as a dm it my prove helpful

i like this group and i like testing the dm because he's really good at making a story

Don't test the DM. He's good at making a story - thank him for that. Show gratitude. Don't make things harder for him.


plus it not everyday that you find a Lg orc barbarian/paladin with vow of poverty
or a hafling cleric of that one god of thieves /rouge with vow of poverty
or star elf cleric/monk with vow of peace.
fun times

As others have mentioned, the party is Exalted and you want to play an Evil character. And not just Evil, cartoonishly, hideously Evil.

I don't care how well you hide it. It won't go over well.


well as sated they won't know they will think shes some kind of goddess (38cha). she will roll a one and beat them. then one by one she will slowly sacrifice them to her god.They won't know. ill have undesernable alignment on permanently for the paladin and the cleric. Theirs no worry about the rouge. i "won't" kill with the vow o peace around and were good.

Yeah, see, this is a problem. Killing off the other PCs is a problem.

It's a problem because you're making the rest of us look bad.

Tandem, meet me over by Camera 3.

*chair swivel*

Look, chief. I get it. Evil is fun. We get the best one-liners, we have the best wardrobe design, we have awesome lairs. And I need not mention the kind of popularity we have with romantic partners. I understand your desire to join our illustrious ranks.

But here's the thing. Evil - real Evil, quality Evil - takes work. It has to be aged like fine wine. Your character seems to have been aged like milk. And the smell of that milk is going to ruin everyone else's meal.

I'm not talking about the party. They're Exalted, so we both know they're hardly even people, really; they don't count. I'm talking about Evil. Every player who wants to have it all - the treasure, the accolades, the fear, and the black spiked leather - has to walk across coals for it. They have to prove worthy of the mantle.

And then someone comes along and says, "I wanna play a powerful Eeeeeeeevil character who's gonna murder my party, blood for the blood god, lulz," and sets the rest of us back with DMs everywhere. "You can't play Evil," we hear, "Because I once ran a campaign and this murderbot came in and en-bloodened everything. It was very messy and there are still stains."

Step back. Think about what you want to accomplish. Now look at how you're doing it, and realize that there's a better way.

I'll see you back at Camera 1.


and that is why i like playing evil expansively with there rest being divine god give me strength good. well ill tell you how it went on wednesday

I temper my sense of decency in expectation.

[Einselar]

I'm interested in seeing an update on this thread and how everything went. Though I feel like I'm following a train headed directly for a brick wall. Or an inebriated man walking towards a cactus patch. While there is a chance that things could go well, it is far more likely that everything will go terrifically and horribly wrong.

[Erit]

I temper my sense of decency in expectation.

Strange, I never thought I would see the Fel One quoting Walter (https://youtu.be/R4wY-FhBArw?t=503).

[D&DPrinceTandem]

camera 1:
ok thanks for all you help talking me out of evil.
now im playing a cn dragonfire adept/warlock, natsu:if you know what i mean you will understand.

[Red Fel]

Strange, I never thought I would see the Fel One quoting Walter (https://youtu.be/R4wY-FhBArw?t=503).

Then you never really knew me.


camera 1:
ok thanks for all you help talking me out of evil.
now im playing a cn dragonfire adept/warlock, natsu:if you know what i mean you will understand.

I do understand, actually. Step one, don't do both. There is simply too much overlap between a DFA and a Warlock, too much redundancy.

If you're playing Natsu, instead, mix one of the two - your call, but flavorwise, DFA is a better fit - with a melee chassis. Monk is a popular option, given its unarmed focus, but you could do the same with a Swordsage. In fact, the Swordsage gets you Desert Wind maneuvers, which are also a solid fit.

Alternatively, you could go with a Warlock/Sorcerer, grab some Reserve Feats, use your Invocations for passive boosts and your Sorc spells for blasting.

Lastly, there's the ever-popular Warforged Warlock. Be a flying invisible laser robot. Win.

[Exocist]

I'm interested in seeing an update on this thread and how everything went. Though I feel like I'm following a train headed directly for a brick wall. Or an inebriated man walking towards a cactus patch. While there is a chance that things could go well, it is far more likely that everything will go terrifically and horribly wrong.

No, it will go horribly wrong either way. The only difference will be whether it will be a funny train wreck or a routine train wreck.

[Inevitability]

camera 1:
ok thanks for all you help talking me out of evil.
now im playing a cn dragonfire adept/warlock, natsu:if you know what i mean you will understand.

Mind explaining your idea of CN? This oughta be good.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Mind explaining your idea of CN? This oughta be good.

Well here
" I do what I want when I want if I see bad I beat them up, if I see good I beat them up, all on my own accords."
-to a poor paladin or warlock

Whats yours

[D&DPrinceTandem]

If you're playing Natsu, instead, mix one of the two - your call, but flavorwise, DFA is a better fit - with a melee chassis. Monk is a popular option, given its unarmed focus, but you could do the same with a Swordsage. In fact, the Swordsage gets you Desert Wind maneuvers, which are also a solid fit.

i thought about going melee until i found this out


E.N.D.: Is described by Atlas Flame as the vilest Demon from the Books of Zeref. According to him, Igneel tried and failed to destroy him 400 years ago.[8] The Demon's name is an abbreviation for "Etherious Natsu Dragneel", meaning his true identity is Natsu himself.[9]


Lastly, there's the ever-popular Warforged Warlock. Be a flying invisible laser robot. Win.

I would rather Play a tribbit warlock(he he){OMG I COULD BUILD HAPPY}

[CharonsHelper]

Well here
" I do what I want when I want if I see bad I beat them up, if I see good I beat them up, all on my own accords."
-to a poor paladin or warlock

Whats yours

That's hardcore CE. And likely an insane one.

[Exocist]

Well here
" I do what I want when I want if I see bad I beat them up, if I see good I beat them up, all on my own accords."
-to a poor paladin or warlock

Whats yours

So you want to play a chaotic character because it will let you do whatever you want, whenever you want, all of which without caring at all about the story or in-game repurcussions?

You do realise this is nightmare fuel for DMs right? It usually results in the character getting killed off because that's actually what would happen in a setting like this. You screw up someone's day? Paladins knocking on your door asking for retribution. You kill someone because "lol"? Welp, time for your execution.

Seriously, you're just trying to play Hack&Slash, in an RP heavy table. Stop.

You don't have to play "stupid good" if you're playing a good character. You can be similar to a Medieval Inquisitor if you want - Torture and all that stuff is still on the table provided it is justified and used sparingly. It can even work with an exalted good party, where you're the "Token evil", but you're not really that evil, just that your idea of "Greater Good" is different from theirs. In can provide great character clashes too. Amazing for the DM.

But CN "lol whatever". No, just no.

[An Enemy Spy]

I GMed a freeform PbP game where one of the players wanted to be OH SO WACKY LOLOLOL and immediately stabbed another PC in the eye for no reason at all. His character spent the rest of the game sitting in a jail cell. There's a social contract between the players around the gaming table and the most sacred part of that contract is "I will not purposefully ruin the game for everyone else". When you break that contract, the other players no longer have any obligation to let you have any fun, and you'll be lucky if they even invite you back.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

So you want to play a chaotic character because it will let you do whatever you want, whenever you want, all of which without caring at all about the story or in-game repurcussions?

You do realise this is nightmare fuel for DMs right? It usually results in the character getting killed off because that's actually what would happen in a setting like this. You screw up someone's day? Paladins knocking on your door asking for retribution. You kill someone because "lol"? Welp, time for your execution.

Seriously, you're just trying to play Hack&Slash, in an RP heavy table. Stop.

You don't have to play "stupid good" if you're playing a good character. You can be similar to a Medieval Inquisitor if you want - Torture and all that stuff is still on the table provided it is justified and used sparingly. It can even work with an exalted good party, where you're the "Token evil", but you're not really that evil, just that your idea of "Greater Good" is different from theirs. In can provide great character clashes too. Amazing for the DM.

But CN "lol whatever". No, just no.
conclusion
lvl 6 paladin/healer
all the exalted feats in the game.
suck up to the majority because majority rules.
get bored with group because i really don't like character.
...
sums it all up, right?

Thread concluded

[An Enemy Spy]

conclusion
lvl 6 paladin/healer
all the exalted feats in the game.
suck up to the majority because majority rules.
get bored with group because i really don't like character.
...
sums it all up, right?

Thread concluded

This attitude is why people don't like your characters. You think not screwing up the game is sucking up to the majority. Cause it's all about you, right?

[Exocist]

conclusion
lvl 6 paladin/healer
all the exalted feats in the game.
suck up to the majority because majority rules.
get bored with group because i really don't like character.
...
sums it all up, right?

Thread concluded

If that's the character someone else wants to play, that's fine. You can tell them they're a pansy in-game.

But "Exalted Good" isn't the only way to play a good character. You don't need to be Superman, you can be the Punisher if you want to be. Technically, he's still a "Good" character.

Don't ruin the campaign because you think the other character's concepts or the DM's world isn't what you want it to be. Talk to your DM if you're unhappy, but you can still have fun by playing a "Questionably Good" character.

[Inevitability]

lvl 6 paladin/healer
all the exalted feats in the game.

I'm now officially convinced in your mind all Good characters are foolish healbots, all Chaotic characters do whatever they want, all Evil characters kill people for no reason: it'd fit with your previous posts.

Let me guess: all Lawful characters must follow all rules, all the time, and commit suicide if they fail to do so?


suck up to the majority because majority rules

D&D parties aren't like hotdogs: you can't just throw a bunch of stuff together and hope it ends up somewhat decent. If everyone in the party wants to play Good, you don't have the authority to play Evil. You can refuse to participate in a campaign with only Good characters, but that doesn't give you the right to create something going against the party: that's called 'throwing a tantrum'.

You call it 'sucking up to the majority', I call it 'cooperating'.


get bored with group because i really don't like character.

Fun fact, this is bad for no one involved, except perhaps yourself. You may not have noticed, but the other players don't want you to kill their characters and the DM doesn't want you to ruin his game. What reason is there for them to keep you?

Really, if you want to keep playing (and it seems you want), keep in line. Don't think you can pull whatever you want: the DM can throw you out whenever he wants. I can't stress the last bit enough: consider it.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

If that's the character someone else wants to play, that's fine. You can tell them they're a pansy in-game.

But "Exalted Good" isn't the only way to play a good character. You don't need to be Superman, you can be the Punisher if you want to be. Technically, he's still a "Good" character.

Don't ruin the campaign because you think the other character's concepts or the DM's world isn't what you want it to be. Talk to your DM if you're unhappy, but you can still have fun by playing a "Questionably Good" character.

i can agree with this.


This attitude is why people don't like your characters. You think not screwing up the game is sucking up to the majority. Cause it's all about you, right?
yes in this dm's game sucking up to the majority is not swrewing up the game.
No i don't think its all about me, just because i appose the other characters doesn't mean I'm the center of the world, Really Chaotic Neutral is my default aligment.

[Inevitability]

yes in this dm's game sucking up to the majority is not swrewing up the game.
No i don't think its all about me, just because i appose the other characters doesn't mean I'm the center of the world, Really Chaotic Neutral is my default aligment.

Chaotic Neutral does not mean what you think it means. And please stop posting those silly 'thread concluded' texts: you don't get to decide that and it places you in bad company.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Chaotic Neutral does not mean what you think it means. And please stop posting those silly 'thread concluded' texts: you don't get to decide that and it places you in bad company.

thank you for your opinion

[Jarmen4u]

This is really sad. I'm glad Red Fel weighed in, because I think we're running out of ways to explain it to you. You are calling it "CN" but you have the same intentions as before, that's not an alignment shift, it's a label shift. If you get the most enjoyment out of ruining other people's fun, then TTRPGs are not for you. Go play Magic or YuGiOh or League of Legends.

TTRPGs are a social experience where people get together to weave a story, roll some dice, and have fun together. It's not so people like you can live out their power fantasies and ruin the game for everyone else involved. If you think anything short of doing whatever you want for no reason is too much to ask, then maybe you need to find a new hobby. Nobody here is going to support your position, because most of us have experienced people with your attitude in our games before. And I can guarantee, they never last long. So I hope for your sake these other people in your game are strangers, so when you inevitably try to screw them over and ruin their good time, you won't be ruining any long-lasting relationships.

[Inevitability]

thank you for your opinion

I'm happy to give it. :smallsmile:

[D&DPrinceTandem]

This is really sad. I'm glad Red Fel weighed in, because I think we're running out of ways to explain it to you. You are calling it "CN" but you have the same intentions as before, that's not an alignment shift, it's a label shift. If you get the most enjoyment out of ruining other people's fun, then TTRPGs are not for you. Go play Magic or YuGiOh or League of Legends.

TTRPGs are a social experience where people get together to weave a story, roll some dice, and have fun together. It's not so people like you can live out their power fantasies and ruin the game for everyone else involved. If you think anything short of doing whatever you want for no reason is too much to ask, then maybe you need to find a new hobby. Nobody here is going to support your position, because most of us have experienced people with your attitude in our games before. And I can guarantee, they never last long. So I hope for your sake these other people in your game are strangers, so when you inevitably try to screw them over and ruin their good time, you won't be ruining any long-lasting relationships.
Thanks i will take that in to consideration for all later games

[D&DPrinceTandem]

I found a funny.
This is my second post on this sight.
Seems hard to play evil by your definitions
So what can i do to be a better player in ANY campaign.
I ask this so we can make actual progress.
Thanks in advance.
I'm thinking about asking the dm if i can scrap that last character.

[TheifofZ]

If you want to be a better player in the game, the biggest thing to do, and probably the hardest, is simply look at it as more than a game.

Have you ever read a really good book? The kind where the writer makes it clear this isn't just a story?
Where you read it and you feel like somewhere else this all is happening? That the book is actually just a window to another world, where all the action and adventure and drama are real?

Where the story is just a retelling of events that happened in another world, instead of a made up fantasy?

That's what the DM wants to create if he's doing a good job. That's the kind of story you're trying to play in.
On the one hand, yes. It's a game with dice and paper and stacks of rules.
On the other hand, it's a real world with real people with real goals, desires, fears, and hopes. A world where, yes, magic is real, and sometimes someone decides that, for example, the kingdom over is going to BURN because they don't particularly like them, and then someone else needs to step up and stop them.

The best groups are the groups where you aren't just sitting around a table and rolling dice. They're the groups where, for 3 to 5 hours a night, you're a group of people in a world of magic, mystery, dragons and demons.

So getting back to the point of this: IF YOU WANT TO BE A BETTER PLAYER, THINK OF YOUR CHARACTER AS A REAL PERSON IN A REAL WORLD. Not as a block of stats to satisfy your personal power trips and desire to act out. That means spending time really figuring out who they are and how they think.
Here's an example;
I recently was invited to a Mutants and Masterminds game, and I really wanted to play a villain, but the party largely want to be heroes. Sounds kind of familiar, right? It does mirror your own situation here quite nicely.
But instead of just forcing the party to deal with my up and coming villain as a villain, I thought about why he thinks of himself as a villain, and why he's still working with heroes. Why he's trying to be a hero, even if he's villainous. I really dug into the character's motivations and desires to figure out what makes him tick.
At the end of the day, he's evil because his powers are, and he can't really consider himself a hero, especially since the civilians consider him a villain. But he wants to be seen as heroic, so he tries to gain respect as a hero, even though he'll stoop to doing villainy if that's the easiest path to what he wants at the time. He hates what he's become and how far he's willing to go, but he's given up on being a perfect hero.

There's a villain in there. One that is willing to kill, steal, and worse if that's what it'll take to get the job done. In a comic book, he'd be a pretty decent villainous rival to any hero, one who needs to be stopped from committing crimes 'for the greater good'. But he can work with a group of heroes, and even thrive doing so.

I get to play the villain I wanted to play while still meshing with a group of do-gooders without causing issues, explicitly because there's alot more to the character than just mindless violence.

[Exocist]

I found a funny.
This is my second post on this sight.
Seems hard to play evil by your definitions.

Think of it like being "Evil" or "Corrupt" in the real world. You can't just go around murdering people, stabbing your friends in the back and committing genocide willy-nilly - You'd be tried and life sentenced/executed almost instantaneously.

Instead, you have to be smart about it. What's your end goal? What do you have to do to achieve that goal? How can you make every act you do that could be viewed as "Evil" get handwaved by the justice system present or just go unknown in the first place?

You need to think a lot more to play an Evil character in these types of games, because they're usually based around being Good, and therefore most of the world is Good also.

So I'll ask the question - What's your actual End Goal? Do you want to become a God? A lich? There's rituals for all that stuff, I can probably find the appropriate references if you tell me an end goal and even point you in the right direction on how to leave it unknown (Or at least not outwardly evil). But just being essentially "Moustache-Twirling" (obviously) Evil does not work in a setting with mostly Good characters.


So what can i do to be a better player in ANY campaign.
I ask this so we can make actual progress.
Thanks in advance.
I'm thinking about asking the dm if i can scrap that last character.

Much of it is based around making a character with a story and end goals that fit what you want to do in a campaign. Provided you aren't actively screwing the rest of the party over (Or if you are, do so as the very last act to happen in the campaign) you should be alright.

So currently I'm getting the vibe you like to kill things. That's fine, but you're playing with an Exalted party, who is mostly going to solve things in Non-Combat related ways. So I'd suggest potentially making a character whose job it is to hunt irredeemably evil things (Evil Outsiders, Undead, People who make deals with demons, etc.) It would actually provide great character arcs across the entire adventure.

Remember, Exalted means they can find redeemable qualities in pretty much anything. You only get called in to deal with something when the Church/your Order/whatever believes that the threat cannot be redeemed at all. You can tell them they're a bunch of pansies for letting the "Obviously Evil" character get away because they found him redeemable, but make sure, if you're going to end up killing them anyway, the rest of the party understands that this guy will never be anything but Evil.

[TheifofZ]

So currently I'm getting the vibe you like to kill things. That's fine, but you're playing with an Exalted party, who is mostly going to solve things in Non-Combat related ways. So I'd suggest potentially making a character whose job it is to hunt irredeemably evil things (Evil Outsiders, Undead, People who make deals with demons, etc.) It would actually provide great character arcs across the entire adventure.
There's plenty of non-lethal options for a fully Exalted party, meaning that Non-Combat is still rarely the immediate go-to method. Except if someone has Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace.



Remember, Exalted means they can find redeemable qualities in pretty much anything. You only get called in to deal with something when the Church/your Order/whatever believes that the threat cannot be redeemed at all. You can tell them they're a bunch of pansies for letting the "Obviously Evil" character get away because they found him redeemable, but make sure, if you're going to end up killing them anyway, the rest of the party understands that this guy will never be anything but Evil.
While murdering things in cold blood isn't going to be the first recourse of an Exalted party, you don't have to play Exalted.
You can play merely Good, and can happily kill things the rest of the party found fully redeemable. You don't have to be perfect, and in a party of full Exalted characters, one who is willing to kill the raving madman, and destroy the evil demon might well be regarded as pretty Evil anyway.
Which, of course, lets you have your cake (Being the 'evil' one in the party) and eat it too (Not getting killed for actually being evil. You're not Evil, merely regular, fallible 'good'.)

Again though, this comes back to having more of a character than a psychological excuse, a sheet of numbers, and a power fantasy.

[Exocist]

There's plenty of non-lethal options for a fully Exalted party, meaning that Non-Combat is still rarely the immediate go-to method. Except if someone has Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace.

He said the Rogue had Vow of Peace, which is why I assumed most of it was going to be Non-Combat.



While murdering things in cold blood isn't going to be the first recourse of an Exalted party, you don't have to play Exalted.
You can play merely Good, and can happily kill things the rest of the party found fully redeemable. You don't have to be perfect, and in a party of full Exalted characters, one who is willing to kill the raving madman, and destroy the evil demon might well be regarded as pretty Evil anyway.
Which, of course, lets you have your cake (Being the 'evil' one in the party) and eat it too (Not getting killed for actually being evil. You're not Evil, merely regular, fallible 'good'.)

Again though, this comes back to having more of a character than a psychological excuse, a sheet of numbers, and a power fantasy.

Basically, BoED says something about being exalted means you have to try to redeem everyone that you can.

Also, if the party is trying to follow this, you really don't want to go around killing the characters they found redeemable, because the party and DM both probably had a plan for that character.

While I fully agree that good (lowercase g) or questionably good is still being a "good" character, it can be difficult to play your run-of-the-mill good character with a party of Exalted characters (BoED rules...). That's why I suggested hunting only the irredeemably evil - you will never really break apart the party doing that because BoED does say that some things are incapable of being redeemed, and therefore the Exalted party doesn't have to get into a fight over it.

[Erit]

There's plenty of non-lethal options for a fully Exalted party, meaning that Non-Combat is still rarely the immediate go-to method. Except if someone has Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace.

Actually, those two vows in question only forbid dealing lethal damage. You can bash people around the chops with Merciful weapons until the cows come home. Vow of Nonviolence even includes a specific exemption clause, in that if an enemy feigns surrender and then attacks, you would no longer be breaking your vow by slaying them. And if someone's immune to nonlethal you can always grapple and Lesser Geas them into submission before applying more permanent solutions; if they're immune to nonlethal and mind-affecting, they're probably also Undead, which neither vow applies to and thus they can be blown to bits with impunity.

People rail on Nonviolence and Peace for making everything impossible for the party, but really it just adds one more particularly thorny hoop to jump through. And if you're playing Exalted characters, that extra hoop is one of several dozen, so it should barely be worth the notice it gets.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

my new character is going to be either Lawful Evil or Lawful neutral.
I say this because i wan to take the Justiciar prestige class from complete warrior(pg47), because it seems like your guys definition of lawful evil and that it fits what my character would be doing, my character is some type of vigalanty.
It would be like Blade if any of you have seen it.
The party is now lvl 7 and in a town Metapolis so this is the perfect time to bring him in.
my character wants justice and doesn't care the methods of doing so. meaning he will go to extents like torture. He doesn't like it but will do it for justice. If he can he will avoid torture he will.

here is a quote from complete warrior


Some evil justiciars prefer torturing their prisoners into confessing before Turning them in.


His end goal is to stop people from doing what he thinks is wrong.
If he goes to hell for it... so be it.

Edit: since im gestalt I'm thinking about taking Corrupt Avenger
my question is what would you say about this(specifically the organization part)

Sworn Foe (Ex): At 1st level, you must choose a specific kind of monster or an organization as your sworn foe.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Whats this for a background?
Whats its alignment?
Do you think it is a reasonable character for the campaign I'm in now?
Dm said he would lift the no evil per-requirement on corrupt avenger if I'm evil.

Tandem Lionheart was once a small child who never got in trouble because he always found ways around the set rules. He always followed rules until he "got to the end of the rule and found ways around them". his Mom used to get mad at him all the time for smarting off at her. When he was a kid he was told his greatest grandfather is a great ruler of a far away land and was still alive to this day. When he figured out this information he attempted to find out everything he could about his genealogy. He did finally find out who is greatest grandfather and what he was truly terrifying. He was a direct dissident of Asmodues Lord of Hell. hmm that explains the smell of brimstone.

Being a child(now 7 lvl 1archivist/Fighter[changes to paladin in a few years]) he tells everyone around him about what he learned. because of this he gets beat up a lot around his small town. At first he told himself he couldn't let them push him to become like Asmodues but one day he said enough was enough and he punches back, he breaks the kids jaw, arm, and almost bit his ear off. he didn't care he thought he was doing good ridding the world of this evil. After a day His mom got a letter saying they had to leave the town in 1 month because the kid he beat up was the son of the local lord. his mother was poor at the time and didn't have enough money to put food on the table and barley had enough money to hold the rough above there heads. so she made him leave her and never come back. so he did he stole money from locales to get himself out of the town so his mother wouldn't be sentence to death. he did and when he finally got out he wandered for 1 year. he became beast like. eating directly from the deer and stuff like that. he hated it but he had to do it to live.

One night there was lightning everywhere and he prayed to the gods to save him. It apparently worked because the next day he was laying in the middle of the rode and a chariot was coming by. He awoke to the sound of a woman's voice that day, in a proper bed with fresh food. The woman (who's name was Clare Valentina) was a high cleric of Pelor and half celestial (she was also the youngest high cleric at the age of 14), she said that her god had answer his call and has plans for him but only if he agreed to become a paladin. When he said yes he was the youngest at the age of 8 to enter. He had shown to be the perfect knight, and at the age of 12 he became the youngest paladin ever[now a paladin/archivist3. The high cleric took him under her wing as a son. When he was 16 he was moved to protector of the high cleric now a paladin/archivist5. the high cleric moved to the metropolis in THE church of Pelor, with her he fallowed. He had fallen in love with her and she him. They lived this way for a year.

On his 17 Birthday(paladin/archivist6) he and her would have been married but the day before they were taking a stroll in the nearby forest when they were ambushed by 21 men all dressed in black except for one who was dressed in a long red robe and had Rod in one hand and a skull in the other this one man had large devilish horns and dark red skin, also he smelt of an eerily sent... Brimstone(lesser aspect of asmodeus). the high priestess attempted to telepathic call out to the guards but it didn't work something was stopping it. what ever was stopping it was also stopping there spells. Tandem immediately took out 15 of the men with 5 left and the aspect they tought they could win. but they were wrong. the last 5 were all warlock/ninjas. slowly one by one they were cut down to. This is when the aspect finally spoke in high infernal but none the less, "ahhhh... grandssson i ssssmell your brimsssstone..." Tandem naturally understood but the Clare new only part of it she had never heard high infernal. Tandem immediately understood why this was happening. Enraged he yelled out(in high infernal which some how he naturally new)" you can take me but you will never get to my priestess." Not knowing he was to late he heard his Clare scream out hi name only to be muffled half way through" he looked behind him to see that there was 5 more assasins had goten to her and already had a knife to her heart with out hesitation they stabbed. His screamed out in rage was in perfect unison to her scream in agony. she slew the assassins with out amorous, then held Clare.as he held her she used her dying word to say in celestrial "i have always loved you my beloved Devil..."He had never told her about his devilish bloodline so he was confused. As she died The aspect said "it wasssn't her i was after it wasss you my grandson." engaged more that this devil even talk he and the devil battled until sundown were as the last light of pelor shined in Tandem, had gained the underhand and slew the aspect of his grandfather for that night he stood there no words.. just him and his sword implanted in the devils stomach.. no thought for what was there it think. when the light shown on Lionheart the guards had grown worried and found him, the devil now a pile of ash with the only thing left of it was his dark red robe and his rod. when Tandem Lion heart had unsheathed his sword from the ash embers sprang forth and engeved into both the weapon and his arm. the ash flown into the air with no wind and covered his blade and arm the ash that went to the sword became mercurial. the embers in the sword became Baatorian Green Steel and Gehennan Morghuth-Iron. the ashes and embers in his arm gave him the template Chosen of Asmodeus and up to moderate corruption score (re-fluffed chosen of bane).

When a year past he had became obsessed on revenge. He started to tap into forbidden knowledge and he had been kicked out of the paladins order but he had not left everything behind he weirs the robe daily and has the rod safely tucked away in his bag of holding. He still has his prowess hand his lay on hands. He has created a way for using the devils work to work in advantage so he could get his abilities back, but now...tainted. He is still on a quest for revenge and his skin acks for it everyday. He has no plans for what he does after he gets his revenge. {now he is a Fallen paladin/archivist6,corrupted avenger/justiciar1}

[Inevitability]

Well, it's no stab-happy party-betrayer, so progress is being made!

I do foresee some trouble the first time you take out the torture tools, though. Torture is pretty clearly Evil, so an Exalted party is going to be opposed to it. Talk to them OOC and ask them whether they think their characters could work with a LE guy who's fighting the good fight, but comitting evil acts in doing so.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Well, it's no stab-happy party-betrayer, so progress is being made!

I do foresee some trouble the first time you take out the torture tools, though. Torture is pretty clearly Evil, so an Exalted party is going to be opposed to it. Talk to them OOC and ask them whether they think their characters could work with a LE guy who's fighting the good fight, but comitting evil acts in doing so.

ok, does this seem like a reasonable background for a LE character
also i don't see any rule on it but is non-lethal damage torture

[Inevitability]

ok, does this seem like a reasonable background for a LE character
also i don't see any rule on it but is non-lethal damage torture

I don't have the time to read the backstory right now, but I can answer your second question: it depends.

If you're fighting some goblins and you deal nonlethal damage against one, then that's definitely not torture. However, if you want someone to tell you something and you punch him a bunch of times, that's obviously torture even if it's nonlethal.

Nonlethal damage may not kill you, but it still hurts. In a macabre way, it's perfect for torture.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

I don't have the time to read the backstory right now, but I can answer your second question: it depends.

If you're fighting some goblins and you deal nonlethal damage against one, then that's definitely not torture. However, if you want someone to tell you something and you punch him a bunch of times, that's obviously torture even if it's nonlethal.

Nonlethal damage may not kill you, but it still hurts. In a macabre way, it's perfect for torture.
ok thanks, the sum is I'm a lesser tiefling (didn't know until i was 7) when the character is 17 and has killed a lesser aspect of his greastest grandfather asmodeus who killed his to be wife the high cleric of pelor. With that conclusion he became a favored of asmodues (re fluff favored of bane) and gets a magic boost to his weapon. later(18 years old) kicked out for paladin's order plotting revenge and using dark magic to make himself strong. now a currpoted avenger with unique outsiders (evil) a his sworn foe

[Vaz]

Seems a bit flaky for a backstory, personally, but YMMV, talk it through with your party.

As I understand it, you've got an obnoxious child who learns at 6 years old that his Great Grandfather is a ruler of a Great Kingdom in a faraway place, and is actually a descendant of Asmodeus, siply by researching his family tree. At 7 years old, he is an Adventurer with Class levels (when most adults are Commoner 1's, presumably?), and despite having a bevy of low level cleric spells and the ability of a fighter, still gets beaten up after telling everyone that he's THE Devil's son.

He then prayed to some gods in the middle of the storm, and Pelor listened, and decided to send a woman in a chariot to teach him to become a Paladin despite self declaring himself the Spawn of his Antithesis, and he's considered to be the Protector of the High Cleric at only 16 years old (again, despite self-declared Fiendish heritage), but is only a 5th level character. If he's getting battered around by plebs in his local town at 1st level gestalt, how does a high protector only have 5 characters, and what on earth can it do?

He gets married, Asmodeus appears with a score of ninjas, who are beaten "immediately" by a 6th level character (who to this date had been knocked about by commoners with ease a few levels before). Then despite killing everyone, 5 more ninjas appear out of nowhere, kill his wife/priestess/lover, and then he stabbed a Demon and got a snowflake blade made of a hundred different metals (when mechanically, a weapon can only be made of one metal to have that significant affect), and gave him a Template and Corruption. So, he's now been kicked out of the Paladin's Order, because he's EVIL...

Yeah, it's a no from me, but like I said, it might suit your party.

Personally, if I was to write it, I'd avoid references to the Great Grandfather's Super Kingdom, it seems to have no bearing whatsoever, and any foreshadowing whatsoever. Just have him born to a normal family (as seems to have happened anyway, apart from the fact that said normal family no longer live in their homeland, despite having all powerful Grandaddy), who joins up a recruiting party for the local church of Pelor, where he meets a young girl (maybe a bit older) in the same situation; she undergoes training to become a Priestess, he a Paladin of the Order. The two stay friends, eventually becoming lovers, and become married, when the devil who allowed the family to concieve their child, comes to claim you. He explains that your parents sold your soul, before you were born, to the devil, in an effort to concieve a child, he tells you this as he drains the life from your wife. You then became the batman.

That seems to have the same effect, rather than needing to reference somethings which are usually a DM's purview (i.e, actions of a God/Archdevil).

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Seems a bit flaky for a backstory, personally, but YMMV, talk it through with your party.

As I understand it, you've got an obnoxious child who learns at 6 years old that his Great Grandfather is a ruler of a Great Kingdom in a faraway place, and is actually a descendant of Asmodeus, siply by researching his family tree. At 7 years old, he is an Adventurer with Class levels (when most adults are Commoner 1's, presumably?), and despite having a bevy of low level cleric spells and the ability of a fighter, still gets beaten up after telling everyone that he's THE Devil's son.

He then prayed to some gods in the middle of the storm, and Pelor listened, and decided to send a woman in a chariot to teach him to become a Paladin despite self declaring himself the Spawn of his Antithesis, and he's considered to be the Protector of the High Cleric at only 16 years old (again, despite self-declared Fiendish heritage), but is only a 5th level character. If he's getting battered around by plebs in his local town at 1st level gestalt, how does a high protector only have 5 characters, and what on earth can it do?

He gets married, Asmodeus appears with a score of ninjas, who are beaten "immediately" by a 6th level character (who to this date had been knocked about by commoners with ease a few levels before). Then despite killing everyone, 5 more ninjas appear out of nowhere, kill his wife/priestess/lover, and then he stabbed a Demon and got a snowflake blade made of a hundred different metals (when mechanically, a weapon can only be made of one metal to have that significant affect), and gave him a Template and Corruption. So, he's now been kicked out of the Paladin's Order, because he's EVIL...

Yeah, it's a no from me, but like I said, it might suit your party.

Personally, if I was to write it, I'd avoid references to the Great Grandfather's Super Kingdom, it seems to have no bearing whatsoever, and any foreshadowing whatsoever. Just have him born to a normal family (as seems to have happened anyway, apart from the fact that said normal family no longer live in their homeland, despite having all powerful Grandaddy), who joins up a recruiting party for the local church of Pelor, where he meets a young girl (maybe a bit older) in the same situation; she undergoes training to become a Priestess, he a Paladin of the Order. The two stay friends, eventually becoming lovers, and become married, when the devil who allowed the family to concieve their child, comes to claim you. He explains that your parents sold your soul, before you were born, to the devil, in an effort to concieve a child, he tells you this as he drains the life from your wife. You then became the batman.

That seems to have the same effect, rather than needing to reference somethings which are usually a DM's purview (i.e, actions of a God/Archdevil).

I'll take this into consideration, i just showed the dm and he said that its a big step in the right direction. He likes the Deity/Archdevil conflict so i would like to keep that. I said that i was the protector of the desesed high priestest because the party(well everyone else my other character is in a dark dark room) is in the church right now, talking to them about what happened a year ago( stopped in the middle of the conversation, dm had ooc problems) and if the Dm wants i could be at the tavern later that night and over hear them talking about it and come over to them and ask if i can join there party on there quest. It has pc classes at age of 7 because it needs a means of finding this info out, i picked archivist because it is very dark knowledge what i uncovered and fighter because it had to be gestalt. he got beat up because i had not had a prayer-book yet. I don't know if a 7year old who bent the rules to his advantage would carrier around a prayer-book.


So, he's now been kicked out of the Paladin's Order, because he's EVIL...

i don't understand why they wouldn't.

edit: Side-note Do you think i would be able to summon pain devils(cr7) instead of Death tyrants(cr13), what about Erinyes(cr8)

[Inevitability]

edit: Side-note Do you think i would be able to summon pain devils(cr7) instead of Death tyrants(cr13), what about Erinyes(cr8)

How are you summoning Death Tyrants exactly?

[D&DPrinceTandem]

How are you summoning Death Tyrants exactly?

chosen of bane refluff in2 Chosen of Asmodeus
it seems i could summon nessus hell hounds instead

I probably won't use this ability but just in case

[Exocist]

my new character is going to be either Lawful Evil or Lawful neutral.
I say this because i wan to take the Justiciar prestige class from complete warrior(pg47), because it seems like your guys definition of lawful evil and that it fits what my character would be doing, my character is some type of vigalanty.
It would be like Blade if any of you have seen it.
The party is now lvl 7 and in a town Metapolis so this is the perfect time to bring him in.
my character wants justice and doesn't care the methods of doing so. meaning he will go to extents like torture. He doesn't like it but will do it for justice. If he can he will avoid torture he will.

here is a quote from complete warrior


His end goal is to stop people from doing what he thinks is wrong.
If he goes to hell for it... so be it.

That's actually in the category of Lawful Good/Lawful Neutral. Despite what the SRD would imply, torture is only evil If you are using it as your first port of call. If you seriously regret having to resort to torture to get information out of people, you are Lawful Good. If you don't mind either way, but you'd rather not, you're Lawful Neutral. If you torture first "Because it's the most effective way", then you're Lawful Evil. Currently, you're sounding Lawful Good. You can be Lawful Neutral if you want to be though.

Also on this:


i don't understand why they wouldn't.

Paladins aren't complete *******s. They can tell the difference between "Evil because Evil" and "Evil because Mind Control". Even check "breaking the Paladins code", there's a difference between breaking it due to Mind Control and breaking it out of your own free will.

Perhaps they didn't really kick you out, they're just hesitant about being too involved with you because of the corruption. They're looking for a way to rid you of the corruption without outright killing you.

Your character is Lawful Neutral because he switches between Himself (Lawful Good) and the corrupted version of Himself (Lawful Evil). Ever read Batman comics? You'd essentially be like Harvey Dent, where you constantly switch between Harvey and "Big Bad Harvey". It's an interesting character that I'd personally be happy for you to play (Backstory is whatever, what matters most is the character concept and how it's played out).

Of course, there'd come to be a point in the game where they have found a cure for the corruption, in which case it would be entirely your choice whether you'd want to be yourself again (LG) or whether you'd want to keep the second half of yourself because you've made peace with it.

[Inevitability]

chosen of bane refluff in2 Chosen of Asmodeus
it seems i could summon nessus hell hounds instead

I probably won't use this ability but just in case

Wait wait wait. You're a Chosen? Does your DM know you're taking an insanely powerful template that only technically has no LA?

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Your character is Lawful Neutral because he switches between Himself (Lawful Good) and the corrupted version of Himself (Lawful Evil). Ever read Batman comics? You'd essentially be like Harvey Dent, where you constantly switch between Harvey and "Big Bad Harvey". It's an interesting character that I'd personally be happy for you to play (Backstory is whatever, what matters most is the character concept and how it's played out).

Of course, there'd come to be a point in the game where they have found a cure for the corruption, in which case it would be entirely your choice whether you'd want to be yourself again (LG) or whether you'd want to keep the second half of yourself because you've made peace with it.

So my character is a lot like 2 face. hmm seems like it. i like it too.

On the second part I'm more like Illidan from World of Warcraft
The corruption made me stronger, being stronger enables me to do what i couldn't have done without it.
this is basically what my character would say when he has someone who can cure it.

really this character is a lot like Illidan
http://orig11.deviantart.net/86e5/f/2012/319/f/7/my_favorite_quote_from_illidan_stormrage_by_fr0stm ourne-d5l2gow.jpg
Except maybe not that last one

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Wait wait wait. You're a Chosen? Does your DM know you're taking an insanely powerful template that only technically has no LA?

i think so because he said i don't have my +3 la by-off if i do take this prestige class

[D&DPrinceTandem]

That's actually in the category of Lawful Good/Lawful Neutral. Despite what the SRD would imply, torture is only evil If you are using it as your first port of call. If you seriously regret having to resort to torture to get information out of people, you are Lawful Good. If you don't mind either way, but you'd rather not, you're Lawful Neutral. If you torture first "Because it's the most effective way", then you're Lawful Evil. Currently, you're sounding Lawful Good. You can be Lawful Neutral if you want to be though.
...
Paladins aren't complete *******s. They can tell the difference between "Evil because Evil" and "Evil because Mind Control". Even check "breaking the Paladins code", there's a difference between breaking it due to Mind Control and breaking it out of your own free will.

Perhaps they didn't really kick you out, they're just hesitant about being too involved with you because of the corruption. They're looking for a way to rid you of the corruption without outright killing you.
...
well i think I'm going to use the torture exclusively on cultist and evil outsider

on the kick out part. I'm not being kicked-out because I'm evil. I'm being kicked-out because I used my dark knowledge of my lineage. I had learned my lesson not to tell people I'm a demon child

[Exocist]

well i think I'm going to use the torture exclusively on cultist and evil outsider

It doesn't matter who you do it to, it's a matter of priority. The evil character will resort to torture first because it gets the best results. The good character knows that torture gets the best results, but still is hesitant about using it unless it's one of the last options available to him (And all other options are worse than it). The neutral character will still try something else first, but might be more willing to try out torture than the good character (It might be his third or fourth port of call, rather than his sixth or seventh).


on the kick out part. I'm not being kicked-out because I'm evil. I'm being kicked-out because I used my dark knowledge of my lineage. I had learned my lesson not to tell people I'm a demon child

No one is born a Paladin, it's their actions afterwards that make them a Paladin. Whether or not you're a Tiefling doesn't matter, you can't control that. What you can control is what you choose to do despite that - If you still want to follow the path of a Paladin despite the fact that you will be hated and feared for what you are, then you are still a Paladin. Because you are still denying the temptation of Evil and following your Paladin-ly ways.

Likewise, Paladins can't help corruption. It's a mental illness, it eats away at what you know to be right and causes you to do despicable acts. So long as you feel regret over what you've done when the black haze of corruption takes you over, you can still be a Paladin. It's just that you have to make sure that people know - when you go crazy they need to get away from you.

Tief-Face - Paladin by Day, Avenger by Night.

[Einselar]

Many many things have been said since I last checked this. I think I can safely sum up my thoughts in this.

Beware being Sue. By very careful about how you put your backstory together. Tragedy for a character is a norm, and that's great. But it is infrequent that tragedy is caused by malice (though admittedly, fairly frequent for PCs) and incredibly infrequent for someone to suffer and find not a soul in the world who empathizes with them. As for being the son of satan.....yeah, just be careful. Though your current backstory could go from edgy to amusing if it's all a sham or all in his head. He has a god-delusion and thinks he is Lucifer's ancestor because he misunderstood a text he read when he was six and his narcissistic personality blew that out of proportion. Or something like that.

While not perfect, a good guide that I use is: Can I use the phrase "Special Flower Child" to describe this character? If so, something needs to change. And if you don't know what I'm talking about when I say "Special Flower Child" you have a larger problem on your hands.

To be sure, there is nothing wrong with your character standing out from the crowd. In fact, it's needed. You want a reason to be different from the average Joe who goes through his day as mundanely as possible. Being an adventure is special. But being special at a cosmic level? That is a thing for epic/high power campagns and can (in the hands of a good dm) draw unwanted attention in what seems to be a auto player kill, but is really a +20 anal lighting bolt of the gods' attention.

Mayhap I wax long and ponder the mysteries of the backstory too often, but I do think that what motivates your character is a large part of the campaign and their personality and a weak story is merely a noose waiting to tighten.

I will assume at this point you have stopped reading. I don't blame you. I like tangents but they're rather distracting. But if you made it this far, you get a TL;DR for being patient.
TL;DR: While it is fine to make a character that stands out, I would refine your backstory so that your character is not of cosmic importance. For if he is truly that strong, why is he here to begin with? Better to instead fluff it so that your character had a misunderstanding of the source of his powers and managed to combine it with illusions of grandeur that cause him to think he is the Son of Satan, when he is really just a mortal. A powerful mortal, but a mortal nonetheless.

[Inevitability]

i think so because he said i don't have my +3 la by-off if i do take this prestige class

1. Chosen of Bhaal is not a prestige class, it's a template.
2. Has your DM read CoB?

[TheifofZ]

As the others have said, that backstory seems a bit... much.

Remember the whole 'part of a larger world' thing.
If your character is the son of the biggest bad, that's ALOT of attention that you really shouldn't be wanting at anything but epic levels.

Perhaps, as suggested, tone the importance of everything down; his soul isn't claimed by Asmodeus himself, but a lesser devil. The devil isn't opposed by Pelor himself, but a lesser Angel. His wife isn't the High Priestess in charge of all the churches, but a priestess who grew up with him and trained together with him.
That way you aren't trying to be the most important person on stage, as it were, but the important parts of the backstory are still largely there.
You still get to be an important piece on the game-board of the Divine, and it still has the same feel of tragedy and suffering to it, and you're less likely to get backhanded into oblivion by the Avatar of a Greater Diety who thought you needed to be put in your place.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

I will assume at this point you have stopped reading. I don't blame you. I like tangents but they're rather distracting. But if you made it this far, you get a TL;DR for being patient.
TL;DR: While it is fine to make a character that stands out, I would refine your backstory so that your character is not of cosmic importance. For if he is truly that strong, why is he here to begin with? Better to instead fluff it so that your character had a misunderstanding of the source of his powers and managed to combine it with illusions of grandeur that cause him to think he is the Son of Satan, when he is really just a mortal. A powerful mortal, but a mortal nonetheless.
I kinda oked it with dm already and its not really that much in comparison to the other players
the barb/paladin is a godson of Gywnharwyf.
the rouge is the great....grandson of one of the dms hero to god character (something like robin hood)
the star elf is the descendant of pista sofia
And that's there characters of the top of my head
seems like i fit in but were all going to kill Asmedues (end quest)


If your character is the son of the biggest bad, that's ALOT of attention that you really shouldn't be wanting at anything but epic levels.
Planning on taking it through epic. far enough to actually kill Asmedues


1. Chosen of Bhaal is not a prestige class, it's a template.
2. Has your DM read CoB?
I'm referring to the chosen of bane from faiths and pantheons

Edit: would any of you like to see the character on a sheet:nale:

[Inevitability]

I'm referring to the chosen of bane from faiths and pantheons.

I know, I looked at it, I was very surprised your DM would let you pick it at level 6. Remember, typically a Chosen is near-epic, if not epic. The abilities seem to assume that too.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

I know, I looked at it, I was very surprised your DM would let you pick it at level 6. Remember, typically a Chosen is near-epic, if not epic. The abilities seem to assume that too.
I don't know. but he let me so i took the it before he could change his mind.
Wanna see my draft ( you guys would be more interested in the last page but still)

[Exocist]

1. Chosen of Bhaal is not a prestige class, it's a template.
2. Has your DM read CoB?

He said Chosen of Bane, not Bhaal. Let's break it down anyway, for +4 CR (No listed LA) you get:

Constant Effects and SLAS - Mind Blank is the one that stands out most of all. Rest are kind of meh (Most of them are mind effecting). You can duplicate that with a Magic item I'm pretty sure. With LA Buyoff I'd say it's worth +1, otherwise +0.5.

Damage Reduction - 10/+1. Does nothing. Not worth anything.

Immunity to Aging - You can get this literally everywhere AND it doesn't even give you "real" immortality. Pass.

Summon Death Tyrant - Well, this one is actually interesting. Limited to Cha Mod/Day, but Full-Round Action. I'd give it +1.5 with buyoff, +1 normally and +0.5 if starting at a high(ish) level.

Undead Shadow - Well, you have a scout. I'd give it +1 buyoff, +0.5 Normal.

Ability Scores - +10 CHA, +2 WIS. Well, the +5 Cha Mod should come in handy to power Divine Grace. Archivist doesn't benefit at all. I'd give it +1.5 only because of Divine Grace (and DMM if he ever gets turning).

Well, then we also have to take into consideration that once you hit that 4th LA, it starts to hurt a lot more, even with buyoff enabled. I'll total up anyway:

- +5 with Buyoff (I wouldn't have this template at +5, so I'd drop it to +4 with buyoff), +3 no Buyoff (sounds about right).

Conclusion: Probably only worth 3 level adjust (Which is literally the same as 4 with buyoff). Sounds fair to me.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

He said Chosen of Bane, not Bhaal. Let's break it down anyway, for +4 CR (No listed LA) you get:

Constant Effects and SLAS - Mind Blank is the one that stands out most of all. Rest are kind of meh (Most of them are mind effecting). You can duplicate that with a Magic item I'm pretty sure. With LA Buyoff I'd say it's worth +1, otherwise +0.5.

Damage Reduction - 10/+1. Does nothing. Not worth anything.

Immunity to Aging - You can get this literally everywhere AND it doesn't even give you "real" immortality. Pass.

Summon Death Tyrant - Well, this one is actually interesting. Limited to Cha Mod/Day, but Full-Round Action. I'd give it +1.5 with buyoff, +1 normally and +0.5 if starting at a high(ish) level.

Undead Shadow - Well, you have a scout. I'd give it +1 buyoff, +0.5 Normal.

Ability Scores - +10 CHA, +2 WIS. Well, the +5 Cha Mod should come in handy to power Divine Grace. Archivist doesn't benefit at all. I'd give it +1.5 only because of Divine Grace (and DMM if he ever gets turning).

Well, then we also have to take into consideration that once you hit that 4th LA, it starts to hurt a lot more, even with buyoff enabled. I'll total up anyway:

- +5 with Buyoff (I wouldn't have this template at +5, so I'd drop it to +4 with buyoff), +3 no Buyoff (sounds about right).

Conclusion: Probably only worth 3 level adjust (Which is literally the same as 4 with buyoff). Sounds fair to me.

i agree with this
as were on the topic me and my dm are re-fluffing it so its from a devil
should i get Ernyes [my personal favorite](cr8), should i get pain(torture) devils(cr7), or assassin devils(cr11) instead of death tyrants(cr12)
Maybe i will get nessian war-hound(cr9)

[TheifofZ]

Planning on taking it through epic. far enough to actually kill Asmedues.

Yes. But the point is that you do not -start- epic.
The best time to squash a potential threat as big as, say, a direct child of a Greater Diety would be before they grow into their power and can fight you evenly.
That is to say: If a God, such as Asmodeus, thought you were going to be a threat due to being the child of a god and therefor running around with a large portion of their power, wanted to stop you from being a threat long term, the best response would be to terminate you in the short term.

To make it short and sweet: It doesn't matter if you are going to play into epic levels. You do not start epic levels. Gods start at epic levels. If a god knows your going to come for him/her, and they know you'll be a threat, they will kill you now. While they are Epic and literally wielding legendary equipment capable of altering landscapes, and you are running around with a +3 'Slightly sharper than +2 but not really very sharp at all, all things considered' Sword and wearing +2 'Slightly smelly but that's because an orc was wearing them before and at least the blood washed off' Leather Armor.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Yes. But the point is that you do not -start- epic.
The best time to squash a potential threat as big as, say, a direct child of a Greater Diety would be before they grow into their power and can fight you evenly.
That is to say: If a God, such as Asmodeus, thought you were going to be a threat due to being the child of a god and therefor running around with a large portion of their power, wanted to stop you from being a threat long term, the best response would be to terminate you in the short term.

To make it short and sweet: It doesn't matter if you are going to play into epic levels. You do not start epic levels. Gods start at epic levels. If a god knows your going to come for him/her, and they know you'll be a threat, they will kill you now. While they are Epic and literally wielding legendary equipment capable of altering landscapes, and you are running around with a +3 'Slightly sharper than +2 but not really very sharp at all, all things considered' Sword and wearing +2 'Slightly smelly but that's because an orc was wearing them before and at least the blood washed off' Leather Armor.
perhaps maybe he made a promise so a specific deity is stopping asmodeus from crushing him into oblivion.

she said that her god had answer his call and has plans for him but only if he agreed to become a paladin.

[Exocist]

i agree with this
as were on the topic me and my dm are re-fluffing it so its from a devil
should i get Ernyes [my personal favorite](cr8), should i get pain(torture) devils(cr7), or assassin devils(cr11) instead of death tyrants(cr12)
Maybe i will get nessian war-hound(cr9)

Up to CR12 Right?

Use a Bebilith (Monster Manual, CR10) or a Pleasure Devil (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/block/Pleasure_Devil_(Brachina)) (Fiend Folio 2, CR11). They're generally the best ones.

I would suggest, though, if your character is going to change between Good and Evil, he summons a Pleasure Devil while he's Evil (LE, same as Asmo) and a Leonal (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Leonal) when he's Good (CR12, NG, same as Pelor).

[umbergod]

This reads like a Lord Draco thread /popcorn

[Inevitability]

This reads like a Lord Draco thread /popcorn

I actually thought it was him for a moment, then I noticed the subtle lack of death threats.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

This reads like a Lord Draco thread /popcorn

wouldn't know anything about it.

[Inevitability]

wouldn't know anything about it.

Feast your eyes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414050-Who-is-better-Optimized-Wizard-or-Optimized-Sorcerer-Yes-Sorcerer-is-a-GOD) I understand if anyone gets physically nauseated by the second page.

This is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, by the way. Drako made two more threads after, as well as a short return that got a single post in before getting banned.

[Erit]

Feast your eyes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414050-Who-is-better-Optimized-Wizard-or-Optimized-Sorcerer-Yes-Sorcerer-is-a-GOD) I understand if anyone gets physically nauseated by the second page.

This is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, by the way. Drako made two more threads after, as well as a short return that got a single post in before getting banned.

Dear...

Dear gods.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Feast your eyes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414050-Who-is-better-Optimized-Wizard-or-Optimized-Sorcerer-Yes-Sorcerer-is-a-GOD) I understand if anyone gets physically nauseated by the second page.

This is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, by the way. Drako made two more threads after, as well as a short return that got a single post in before getting banned.

ohh...
ohh....
Oh my!...
I don't think i could conjure up something that evil!

[Jarmen4u]

ohh...
ohh....
Oh my!...
I don't think i could conjure up something that evil!


It's not that he's evil..... he's just obnoxious, dense, and overall unpleasant to interact with.

[Einselar]

Feast your eyes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?414050-Who-is-better-Optimized-Wizard-or-Optimized-Sorcerer-Yes-Sorcerer-is-a-GOD) I understand if anyone gets physically nauseated by the second page.

This is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, by the way. Drako made two more threads after, as well as a short return that got a single post in before getting banned.

I couldn't be bothered to read the whole damn first post, but it looks like a massive **** waving contest, where OP is just straight up wrong and doesn't seem to get that. That and OP is the only one with their **** out. How do you get that incredibly wrong?

[Inevitability]

I couldn't be bothered to read the whole damn first post, but it looks like a massive **** waving contest, where OP is just straight up wrong and doesn't seem to get that. That and OP is the only one with their **** out. How do you get that incredibly wrong?

Someone who semi-knew the OP showed up later and basically described it as a blend of cultural differences, misinformation, language barriers and Drako being a horrible person.

[TheifofZ]

I managed to read through the second page.

After deciphering some of Draco's english, I concluded that, while he is a much better speaker of a second language than I, the actual language barrier still posed a serious issue to any logical discussion.

And then I read some of his arguments.
I've seen worse arguments, certainly. In content, context, and sheer stupidity all. But these... these are rare gems. It's as if someone took poop, polished it, (which is an actual thing, by the by) and then presented it as a diamond. Now, polished poo is certainly less common than a diamond, and certainly they share the same basic atomic components, but at the end of the day one is a pile of feces and the other is regarded as the most valuable gem in the world. (PS: Diamonds are neither rare nor actually that valuable; falsified scarcity and clever marketing are why they're priced so highly). But I'm drifting.

The point I'm making there is that Draco is a priceless experience of petty ego, small mindedness, several language barriers, and cultural differences. And possibly idiocy. Tandem, on the other hand, while struggling to improve as both a poster using the english language and as a player, has displayed at least a willingness to take on advice and tries to understand what is being done wrong.
And that's to be encouraged, not condemned. Because OP is not Draco, and is a much more pleasant experience by far.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

nvm i didn't mean to post that here.

[Exocist]

Someone who semi-knew the OP showed up later and basically described it as a blend of cultural differences, misinformation, language barriers and Drako being a horrible person.

Page number? Just because I want to see what the point of all that was...

[D&DPrinceTandem]

does this seem reasonable

To his prisoners. He likes to play with there mind so he uses the Chinese water torture( which in-game he made) to extract information.
When he says he is extracting information, he means it, he wants revenge.
1)he casts a zone of truth to make sure they don't lie.
2)After he cast zone of truth he will say "i don't want to hurt you do you have any information that could be usful to me."
3)if they refuse to talf he sighs and does some form of torture to them.
4)if they start to speek he stops the tortue and re-asks the question. he uses this method for all his prisoners.
He cannot lie in this area so when he says he doesn't want to hurt you he means it

[Vaz]

This isn't something we can really help with, but usually, torture is not compatible with being Good. Developing a form of torture especially is not the case of being good.

If your DM rules that a good person using Torture against evil creatures then make sure to use Detect Evil at will, but Torturing anyone for information simply because you ask for the truth isn't very nice. Also, I think you're overestimating how quick chinese water torture is.

Again, honestly, no. Torture = Bad, to the extent that torture has rules and supporting gear from the Book of Vile Darkness, but YMMV.

[Exocist]

does this seem reasonable

To his prisoners. He likes to play with there mind so he uses the Chinese water torture( which in-game he made) to extract information.

If you're evil, you'll enjoy the torture. Neutral and Good characters derive no pleasure from torturing people.


When he says he is extracting information, he means it, he wants revenge.

Revenge is actually an Evil/Neutral motivation, if that's all you're seeking. Remember, Evil=Selfish. If the only reason you want to stop the BBEG is because of Revenge, you're on the Neutral/Evil Borderline.


1)he casts a zone of truth to make sure they don't lie.

Doesn't mean anything. Zone of Truth doesn't affect alignment.


2)After he cast zone of truth he will say "i don't want to hurt you do you have any information that could be usful to me."

Only if you've tried other means to gain the information beforehand. Resorting to "Tell me what I want or I'll torture you" as your first act puts you into the Evil category.


3)if they refuse to talf he sighs and does some form of torture to them.

Sighing != Deep regret. It means you're slightly annoyed that you've had to come to this option, but it doesn't mean you regret what you're doing.


4)if they start to speek he stops the tortue and re-asks the question. he uses this method for all his prisoners.
He cannot lie in this area so when he says he doesn't want to hurt you he means it

In addition to that, you should be stopping the torture every so often to re-ask the question, even if they don't speak. Remember, you really don't want to hurt them, you just want the information.

[Einselar]

does this seem reasonable

To his prisoners. He likes to play with there mind so he uses the Chinese water torture( which in-game he made) to extract information.
When he says he is extracting information, he means it, he wants revenge.
1)he casts a zone of truth to make sure they don't lie.
2)After he cast zone of truth he will say "i don't want to hurt you do you have any information that could be usful to me."
3)if they refuse to talf he sighs and does some form of torture to them.
4)if they start to speek he stops the tortue and re-asks the question. he uses this method for all his prisoners.
He cannot lie in this area so when he says he doesn't want to hurt you he means it

Torture is rough and unless you enjoy it or are hardened completely against it, you aren't gonna have a good time. In fact, I think Arrow said it really well when they pointed out that torture is generally harder than killing because you see the pain and suffering on the victim's face, and that's rough for any non-evil alignment.

[Mordaedil]

I couldn't be bothered to read the whole damn first post, but it looks like a massive **** waving contest, where OP is just straight up wrong and doesn't seem to get that. That and OP is the only one with their **** out. How do you get that incredibly wrong?

In most communities I've been on, they've been able to tell these people out immediately and promptly not respond to them.

Kinda surprised it went as far as it did.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Well guys i have an update it kinda went better than planned. In game the vow of peace character died. so now we don't have to be patronized. The rest of the party accrual likes my character because the gave him a chance to explain himself. they are now allowing me to aid them in there adventure to kill asmodeus but they don't know about him being my ancestor and i personally believe is best that way. any suggestions on how i should handle this. what im doing wrong and what i can do better

[Vaz]

You know your group better than us, and it depends what you want to do when you fight Asmodeus. Whether you want to join him (although you may not have a choice).

I'm not sure if you know how tough Asmodeus is. I've fought an aspect of him once, and got TPK'd, although we were fighting him ECL20, because Epic gets silly. Spoilered, so that you don't have to spoil it for yourself by metagaming.

This is written with the assumption that you're fighting Asmodeus in Hell, and he knows about you (Int 28, Knowledge Arcana, Religion, and Planes +44 minimum, Greater Scrying), and your backstory).

So, first things first. Melee wise. 32HD, with an Attack Bonus of +51, dealing 49 damage MINIMUM per hit (again, assuming you're all good). As a Large creature, he has 10ft reach. With an AC of 50, you're literally looking at a full BAB character with 34 Str (18 base, +6 item, +5 level, +5 book) and a +5 Weapon hitting only 45% of their attacks. Should you make any sort of headway against his 432HP, he has Regeneration 13. I'm going to assume that since you're attacking Asmodeus, and preparing to do so (and that in his hubris, he lets you prepare), you'll have Good aligned weapons, but even then, after over half of your attacks miss unless hitting his Touch AC (Wand of Wraithstrike?), he's healing back 13HP a turn, and he has Heal, Mass Heal, Cure Critical Wounds, Two Cure Moderate Wounds prepared AND Restoration, so he has around 400 points of healing in addition to his Regen, if he wishes to do so.

Before even including the Reverie of Nessus from the Rod; 1/day Immediate Action, for 3 rounds, he becomes encased in a wall of force, surrounded by an Anti Magic Sphere (not including Asmodeus); although this gives you time to prepare, it not only instantly Heals him back to full and instantly regrows all of his severed limbs, but it gets rid of unwanted non-determinate spells, effects, diseases, and physical maladies, AND gives him back all of his abilities as if he's rested a day, and it's triggered instantly without need for activation if he gets affected by an unwanted enchantment spell. Going by the assumption that the Rod is not included within "his abilities", and he cannot then re-tailor his spells to be more damaging, this guy is looking at having around 1200-1400 HP. Throw in that when you attempt to attack Asmodeus (with the assumption that attack also means including him within a spells' area of effect even if it's not centred on him), you must pass a DC32 Will Save, or turn helpless for a round (and it's not Mind Affecting, either!), opening you up to CDG.

So, he's gone through all of that, and you're going to kill him next turn, what does he do? Word of Recall's.

Then you've got to look at getting there. He can fly 120ft, and his maneuverability is Perfect. If he doesn't want to be engaged, he won't be engaged, and his turning circle is essentially BETTER THAN YOU. Essentially, unless you also have some way of getting Perfect Maneuverability, or can force him to stay in one place, he's always be out of your Arc. Combined with Invisibility Purge, and a Spot check of +46, if you move while Invisible, he'll be able to pinpoint your location (DC40 to pinpoint an active moving invisible creature), so he can always place himself (Int 32 with Foxes Cunning up) in a place where a typical flying creature cannot get to him during their combination of Turning/Diving/Climbing rates. Only another creature with 60ft or better Perfect movement has a chance of getting there. That's provided that you've got through the 200ft Radius aura of Repulsion of course.

Should you get close to him, you have to resist a DC36 Aura, or submit to his will (Suggestion) for a day. Hopefully, you'll have some way of immunity to Mind Affecting (get your Wizard to craft some scrolls of it in the run up to the fight). In addition to which, he has a 30ft Slow Gaze (again, DC36), which then forces a -2 penalty, including your saving throws which is most scary. Not only that, he can force Fear and Weakness on you; that's a 6-11 penalty to your strength, and panics (as in, drop everything you hold, and run the opposite way, as well as taking additional penalties to saves). If you still have any chance of getting close to him, he has access to Imprisonment; DC30, or in the case of you, his bloodline, DC34 effectively, to take you out of the fight, a CL20 Energy Drain (No Save, -2d4 levels), followed by CL20 Blasphemy. Assuming you're 20HD, he's Dazed and Weakened you (Daze for 1 round, so no action, and then -2d6 strength (combined with his Enfeeble Gaze? -8 to -23 strength) at the least, or potentially Paralyzed you for a few minutes, leaving you helpless, again, ripe for CDG'ing - these are all no save effects, by the way. Because it's Blasphemy, and you're in Hell, it would also force a Save or be banished back to your homeplane; but he can choose to Dimensional Anchor one of your party, leaving them ripe for the picking, before using Soul Bind to keep a dead party member dead. if Blasphemy doesn't work, there's also Dismissal and Dictum if they're not Lawful.

There is Greater Command also, although Mind Affecting, which can split a party up; making one approach, one flee, one fall, and another Drop (which then has their stuff stolen).

As to fighting him, it's unlikely you'll ever have a chance to do so alone, unless once more, his hubris lets you fight your way through a horde of devils beforehand. Literally. Gate, Hellish Horde (again, presuming he knows you're coming, has let you prepare, and has cast this prior), Summon Monster III and IV, and Summon Baatezu 3/day.

That's not even the least of it though; even though Summons do not allow nested Summons, they can bring other "adds" to a fight themselves; a Pit Fiend (Summon Baatezu) has Create Undead at will, inside Desecrate (Asmodeus' Spell), which may have you facing other former challengers, but tacked onto the mummy chassis or Bone/Corpse/Curst Creatures. Or further nesting with Necroplasm to create spawn, and Deathshead's can Dominate opponents they're grappling. Aspect of Dispater has Polymorph for random Lemure's, Aspects of Belial can Geas/Quest or Dominate Monster for the party, while Fierna is limited to Dominate Person. Aspects of Levistus has Amnesia Touch to mess with the party to turn them to one side. Glasya also has Polymorph for random noob Devil's, Dominate Person, AND Dominate Monster. Baalzebul and Mephistopheles has Geas/Quest, while Aspect of Kurtulkmak can CALL in a 12HD Dragon as a spell (there are plenty of handbooks on how a Dragon can be optimized, especially without LA to worry about), although is otherwise much lower OP than the other aspects. Of course, you've also got Gate which can bring in anything you want, including Chain Gating.

You've got all of this to deal with, and I'm running out of time. However, I've barely scratch his other damage potential. Good luck. I'll look forward to raising your corpse.