Crappy Situation

[Callin]

So I need help creating an ECL 16 Character for a 3.5 game. Everyone else is lvl 26 or 20+, and I have no idea what to play. I kinda want to do something with Psionics and would love to figure out a way to boost my CL through the roof so I am viable with the CRAP the DM is pulling here. Its an Undead based game so that eats into the ECL a bit but if its worth it I would like it. Specially something that cant die. Already have 1 lich who is a 26 Cleric Necromancer Hybrid, a Deathknight who is 26th in his classes and a ECL 20 Half Stone Giant Half Dragon and an ECL 20 Mindflayer Rogue.

So can yall help me out. Its been over 2 years since I have dealt with a straight 3.5 game. 3rd Party is a go and the broken the better. Pun Pun is out though lol.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So I need help creating an ECL 16 Character for a 3.5 game. Everyone else is lvl 26 or 20+, and I have no idea what to play. I kinda want to do something with Psionics and would love to figure out a way to boost my CL through the roof so I am viable with the CRAP the DM is pulling here. Its an Undead based game so that eats into the ECL a bit but if its worth it I would like it. Specially something that cant die. Already have 1 lich who is a 26 Cleric Necromancer Hybrid, a Deathknight who is 26th in his classes and a ECL 20 Half Stone Giant Half Dragon and an ECL 20 Mindflayer Rogue.

So can yall help me out. Its been over 2 years since I have dealt with a straight 3.5 game. 3rd Party is a go and the broken the better. Pun Pun is out though lol.Okay, we'll need some way to negate the others' level advantages, here. My suggestion is to take one level in the ghost savage progression, (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) buy off that level back at level 3 (if LA buyoff is allowed; if not, you might as well just take the levels in ghost anyway), and repeat until you can possess others and reform when you "die," then take the rest of your levels in, say, psion/thrallherd or something, and find an epic level body to possess, especially one with awesome special abilities you can abuse. Make sure to take the Ghostly Grasp feat, from Libris Mortis, so you can touch corporeal things while incorporeal.

Now, you're a bit behind on manifesting, but your possessed body can potentially do so much for you it's crazy.

Alternately, take levels in illithid savant, and abuse the crap out of it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?504145-Messing-with-Illithid-Savant).

[Callin]

Yes Buyoff is allowed and I was thinking of Ghost with Possession. So I like where this is going.

Stats are insane by the way. I get 90pts to add 1 for 1 to make my stats then I get to add in Racials.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yes Buyoff is allowed and I was thinking of Ghost with Possession. So I like where this is going.

Stats are insane by the way. I get 90pts to add 1 for 1 to make my stats then I get to add in Racials.Okay, are the stats starting at 8 and working your way up with no upper limit, or are you starting at 0 and have a limit at 18, or something else?

Also, if you go ghost, make sure you optimize your ghostiness through being raised by a necromancer with the Corpsecrafter feats. Ignore the bits about necropolitan, but go with the rest of these: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?147848-(3-5)-The-Corpsecrafted-Spellstitched-Necropolitan Also, since you're corporeal on the Ethereal Plane, feel free to have your corporeal body spellstitched, as mentioned in that thread.

If your base race is an [Evil] outsider (such as a lesser planetouched with the Otherworldly feat, for 0 LA), you can use a few levels of fiend of possession to improve your possession skills. This does take away from your manifesting, though. Still, something like cleric 1/wizard 1 (with fractional saves and lots of ACFs)/fiend of possession 1/ghost 5 (with LA buyoff as soon as you take each level)/fiend of possession 4/illithid savant 9 (with the Illithid Heritage feat or the half-illithid template) would let you eat a high level psion and get ALL of its manifesting, while being really good at possessing stuff, as well as grabbing several other high level abilities, AND a body that can give you some sweet racial abilities, as well.

[Callin]

You sir are a Godsend. Thank you. I like the Fiend of Possession and Ghost. Stats are 90pts to distribute how I need from 0-18. It basically boils down to each stat being a 15 and then adding and subtracting.

[Kaje]

Take the feat Dragon Cohort. Have it take the feat Dragon Cohort. Repeat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You sir are a Godsend. Thank you.No problem.


I like the Fiend of Possession and Ghost.There is some overlap, especially if you choose the malevolence ghost ability (which you don't need, if you're a fiend of possession).


Stats are 90pts to distribute how I need from 0-18. It basically boils down to each stat being a 15 and then adding and subtracting.As a ghost, you won't have a Str or Con score. What are you doing with the rest of your points? You'll *probably* want to place points in Str, even if it's overridden by your normal -- score, since you ARE corporeal on the Ethereal Plane.

You'll definitely want an 18 in Intelligence. If you can manage to take the Faerie Mysteries Initiate feat, that'll give you +Int to each hit die in lieu of the Con you don't have. So 1d12+Int every level, not including all the Corpse Crafter feat bonuses from being made by a necromancer with all those feats on an unholy altar.

[Vizzerdrix]

If your base race is an [Evil] outsider (such as a lesser planetouched with the Otherworldly feat, for 0 LA), you can use a few levels of fiend of possession to improve your possession skills.

Ya know, I never understood how that gets the [EVIL] subtype needed to enter FoP. All I can see is you become a Native Outsider. What am I missing?

Also, not sure if this is helpful but a single battledancer level gets Cha mod to AC.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oh, and don't forget to be Venerable. +3 to all mental stats in exchange for a -6 to Dex which won't matter at all because you'll be inhabiting someone else's body and using their Dex, and since you're already dead, you don't have to worry about dying of old age.

Your type is undead, but taking Otherworldly means you're an outsider when it suits you, so you don't have to worry about effects that only bother undead, such as turning and the command undead and control undead spells. Have fun being immune when someone tries to rebuke you.


Ya know, I never understood how that gets the [EVIL] subtype needed to enter FoP. All I can see is you become a Native Outsider. What am I missing?Lesser planetouched are in Player's Guide to Faerun. They lose their LA but become humanoid instead of outsider -- but that's ALL that's changed. Nothing is said about their subtypes (if any), so they should keep them, meaning that a lesser tiefling keeps the [Evil] subtype. And with Otherworldly, they remain [Evil] outsiders and trade one feat for +1 LA.


Also, not sure if this is helpful but a single battledancer level gets Cha mod to AC.Ghosts get that already for being incorporeal.

[Kaje]

Tieflings don't have the evil subtype.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Tieflings don't have the evil subtype....They can alter self into things that do?

[Vizzerdrix]

He could go the same route I did. Diablous divine minion of sebek for only +2LA.

[Callin]

Fiend of Possession seems to have a bunch of overlap so that might not work for me. Sure being able to possess an object is cool and all but I think sticking to People will probably serve me better. Also overlap.. so if I go say Psionicsomething 11/Illithid Savant 5 with Ghost Template Buyoff and max out Charisma and Int. That sound right?

[Vizzerdrix]

How are you getting into Illithid Savant?

[Callin]

Mots likely I will use a magic item that lets me count as an Illithid

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How are you getting into Illithid Savant?Polymorph, PAO, metamorphosis, possibly Illithid Heritage, (true) mind switch, and many other potential ways are all open for abuse.


Most likely I will use a magic item that lets me count as an IllithidPsychoactive skin of proteus? That necklace in the A&EG that polymorphs you into a single form for cheap?

[Vizzerdrix]

To quote Sirpercival from the Illithid Savant handbook

The trick which had been discussed on BG was playing a Changeling with Racial Emulation, and emulating an Incarnate Construct Effigy Illithid.

Mind you that was from about 3 years ago and I could not find the discussion he was refering to, so I dont know if this is legit or not. I wouldnt think it was. After all, it may walk like a duck and talk like a duck but it doesnt have the correct race type as a duck.

[Callin]

Is it possible to eat the brain of an Immortal Creature?

[hector212121]

How about a Ghoulish Creature? It doesn't say anywhere that a Ghoulish Creature can't be humanoid, in fact, it specifically says that it CAN be, yet a ghoulish creature gets MASSIVE stat buffs. http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/ghoulish.shtml

Make a Wilder and you get full advantage from that +6 to charisma. If you're worried about max HP, be a Ghoulish Killoren or other fey--as far as I can tell, Ghoulish only gives 1(!) LA judging by the thing, and you can pick up Beauty's Bounty at level 1--which means that you add your CHA mod to your health at level one, plus, whenever it increases(say from becoming a Ghoulish Creature by being brutally murdered by one) you add both to the gain at level one and just flat out add the gain to your max hp.

Also, fill your boots with blacksand. 1d4 fast healing for absolutely 0 cost.

Ghoulish domovoi may be a EXCELLENT choice, at a total of +12 to Charisma.

If your gm insists that you can't be that because it says always chaotic evil in ghoulish creature, say you had a helm of opposite alignment slapped on you over and over until it did it's job. Or, alternately, that it means that you have to be that in order to get it by being a cannibal, not to get it by being savaged by another ghoulish creature.

Mind, he might veto because it doesn't say anything about fey, on second thought...

But, on the plus side, if he allowed it.... your natural attacks would be DEADLY, causing paralysis to almost anything you hit!

Edit:Oh, if dragon content is allowed Trollblood Gheden just....makes a joke out of anything you throw at it. You can stack gear on them until they become literally impossible to kill.

[Extra Anchovies]

Be a Psion (Shaper) 15 with Expanded Knowledge (Mind Switch), and learn Astral Seed as one of your 8th-level powers. Find a Beholder, pump your save DCs, and perform the shenanigans described at the end of the Astral Seed description. You are now a true beholder. Put out your central antimagic eye and enter Beholder Mage with your 16th class level. One more level of Beholder Mage and then you can go into Cerebremancer to advance your manifesting and casting simultaneously.

Alternately, you could purchase a casting or item of Polymorph Any Object when you can first afford it, PAO into a Beholder, put out your antimagic eye, and enter Beholder Mage earlier, in which case you could quite possibly start the game having maxed out your Beholder Mage spellcasting via Cerebremancer. You'll want to Astral Seed -> Mind Switch into another Beholder at some point, though, because PAO can be dispelled or suppressed.

By the way, all of this, except Beholder Mage and the Beholder's stats (which technically don't need to be known for you to PAO into one), is on the d20srd.

If you can be an Erudite Psion, congrats - you can learn every psionic power and every arcane spell. Oh, and you can cast your spells as free actions. Have fun!


So I need help creating an ECL 16 Character for a 3.5 game. Everyone else is lvl 26 or 20+, and I have no idea what to play. I kinda want to do something with Psionics and would love to figure out a way to boost my CL through the roof so I am viable with the CRAP the DM is pulling here. Its an Undead based game so that eats into the ECL a bit but if its worth it I would like it. Specially something that cant die. Already have 1 lich who is a 26 Cleric Necromancer Hybrid, a Deathknight who is 26th in his classes and a ECL 20 Half Stone Giant Half Dragon and an ECL 20 Mindflayer Rogue.

Geeeeez. That is quite the level spread. First, a few ambiguities that would be good to have cleared up:

1. Does the lich have 26 class levels, or are they ECL 26?
2. A Half-Dragon Stone Giant has ECL 21 with just the RHD and LA, no class levels.

[Doctor Awkward]

Ghoulish domovoi may be a EXCELLENT choice, at a total of +12 to Charisma.

According to the link you provided, the template can only be applied to giant, humanoid, and monstrous humanoid with four or more HD. Domovoi fail on two counts of being a fey, and of having only two racial hit dice.

If finely aged gouda-level cheese is on the table for this game...
Here's an oldie but a goodie:

1. Start with a Kobold. I'd recommend the Desert variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds) from Unearthed Arcana. No light sensitivity, and you swap out the -2 Con for -2 Wisdom

2. Apply the Dragonspawn Template from the 3.5 Dragonlance Campaign Setting (it goes on any humanoid). Your type changes to monstrous humanoid, you gain +7 natural armor, a fly speed, a breath weapon, Death Throes, and most importantly, +1 to your effective sorcerer level.
Choosing White Dragon as your dragon type gives you +2 Dex, and +2 Con for only +1 Level Adjustment

3. As your 1st level feat, take Dragonwrought from Races of the Dragon. This changes your type to dragon and arguably makes you count as a true dragon. The most important feature of this is that you can take the mental bonuses of age categories without taking the physical penalties. So go ahead and start yourself at venerable age and grab a free +3 to Wis, Int, and Cha.

4. As you are arguably a true dragon, you can declare yourself to be a Loredrake (as detailed on page 31 of Dragons of Eberron). This is a Sovereign Archetype, not a template or a variant class. It's sort of like a religion for dragons. A Loredrake grants you an effective +2(!) increase to your sorcerer level, at the cost of turning your racial hit dice into d10s instead of d12s (you don't have any racial hit dice).

5. Take class levels in Sorcerer, obviously.

6. At some point in your life, pony up 100 gold for the Draconic Rite of Passage detailed on page 43 of Races of the Dragon. Being a lowly kobold, this gives you a 1st level sorcerer spell that you can use once per day as a spell-like ability using your character level as caster level (I'd suggest Benign Transposition). More importantly, this qualifies you for the Draconic Reservoir feat from the Races of the Dragon web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), which lets you use your new ability 3/day, but chiefly it allows you to take the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage (same article). For another 1,000 gp, your effective sorcerer level is increased by 1 again.

7. Nab the Create Magic Tattoo spell from the Spell Compendium. At level 9, your sorcerer caster level is 13, which lets you inscribe the +1 spellcaster level effect. (This lasts for 24 hours)


So... with your point buy rules? I'd go with stats like this:
Str 12, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 18

So after modifiers you'd have this:

Strength 8 (12 -4 racial)
Dexterity 16 (12 +4 racial)
Constitution 20 (18 +2 racial)
Intelligence 18 (15 +3 age)
Wisdom 16 (15 -2 racial +3 age)
Charisma 25 (18 +3 age +4 level)

At level 16, your effective sorcerer level would be 20, and your effective caster level would be 21 with the magic tattoo. And that's before gear. And all of it at only +1 offset (which can be bought off easily). If Dragon Magazine material is on the table, then the Magic-Blooded template (Dragon #306, pg. 64) gets you another +2 Cha, -2 Wis at +0 LA

As a level 16 character, you'd have So you'd have 260,000 gold to play with. 1,100 of it is already spoken for so you're down to 258,900. I'd consider some of the following:
-Tome of Leadership and Influence (+5 inherent bonus to Cha): 137,500
-Metamagic Rod of Extend (Greater): 24,500
-Rainbow Falls magical location (1/day triple the duration of any transmutation spell you cast): 2,000
-Either a +4 or +6 Charisma item: 32,000 or 72,000
-Runestaffs: Get any that you can afford. Great way to add more spells to your spell list (especially ones that aren't normally available to Sorcerers like Greater Consumptive Field, Magic Vestment, etc.)
-Orange Ioun Stone (+1 effective caster level): 30,000

Speaking of spells, Dragonsight (SpC) is a solid buff for this guy. Uncapped Darkvision out to 10 feet per caster level, uncapped Blindsense at 5 feet per caster level.
Shapechange is a great target for the Rainbow Falls. By casting it alongside a charge from the Metamagic Rod, it will last for an hour per caster level.
And Maw of Chaos for uncapped caster level of d6s of damage every round, with a Will save or be dazed.

And of course all the sorcerer only spells: Wings of Cover ("Nope" to any attack 1/round), Arcane Fusion (cast multiple spells at once), Wings of Flurry (uncapped d6/caster level of force damage to all targets of your choice within 30 feet).

[Exocist]

According to the link you provided, the template can only be applied to giant, humanoid, and monstrous humanoid with four or more HD. Domovoi fail on two counts of being a fey, and of having only two racial hit dice.

If finely aged gouda-level cheese is on the table for this game...
Here's an oldie but a goodie:

If you're doing Dragonwrought Desert Kobold cheese, you might as well do this one:

Play a Sharn (They're from Monsters of Faerun, Page 76) - They were updated in the MoF web enhancement to have +5 LA (No other changes though, so you're 5LA 4HD). They being play as a 7th Level Sorcerer/5th Level Cleric (That stacks with actual levels in those classes), and can advance either casting side with EACH level they take. They also have a bunch of other bonuses, including but not limited to, 12 attacks per round (9 arms, 3 heads), 2 Standard Actions, Regeneration/Lawful and Magic, 4 Domains + Turning, +8-10 on all scores, and a bunch of other stuff.

Take levels in Mystic Theurge (7 by my count), this boosts you to a 14th Sorcerer/12th Cleric, and then you get to add another 7 levels to whichever one of those classes you want (Do you want to be a 21st Sorcerer/12th Cleric or 19th Cleric/14th Sorcerer? Hmmm...). Did I mention that they get to ignore the material components and foci of any spell they cast? Enjoy your infinity Ice Assassins/True Resurrections/Whatever...

If they're not allowed, look into Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun) - They start as 2LA + 1RHD (Which you can swap out for a level in a class, because it's only 1 HD). They get Sorcerer casting equal to their HD based on their age (That stacks with actual Sorcerer levels) and cast as SLAs (Auto Silent-Still, Costly GP components replaced with XP). That means you can just get a party member to cast Bestow Curse on you (Choosing the +1 Age Category) until you're a Revered Elder (19th Level Sorcerer casting and some stat changes - +12 STR, -1 DEX, +6 CON, +11 INT, +12 WIS, +15 CHA). They're not quite as bonkers as Sharn, but you can buy off both the LA...

[Callin]

Thanks for the ideas guys! I did think about Dragonwrought Kobold Sorc idea with boosted Caster Levels. Its a great idea. The Phaerrimm/Sharn Idea I had totally forgotten about.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Is it possible to eat the brain of an Immortal Creature?
Yes, but it won't make you immortal, because it's not a borrowable ability.

In situations like this, Ur-Priest and Beholder Mage are your friends. Alternatively, get a black ethergaunt monstrous progression together, and buy off the LA at the levels it appears on (it's 16 RHD and 3 LA, casts spells as a wizard 17).

A more cheesy trick involves the use of fusion and astral seed to combine many more class abilities into one character. You could easily get full casting and manifesting at ECL ~10, for example like so:

0) Start with psionic artificer 16 with 120 500 XP, and fill a thought bottle. Make sure you have a familiar or psicrystal. Then lose a level. You are now level 15, with 112 500 XP.
1) Craft an item of fusion (ML 15), one of greater metamorphosis (ML 17), and one of astral seed (ML 15).
2) Use greater metamorphosis to turn your psicrystal into something with good abilities and no more than 17 HD, like a choker. Take a fusion-compatible form with good abilities.
3) Execute the fusion + astral seed combo with your psicrystal.
4) Repeat 2-3 with a chronotryn, thoon elder brain, elemental weird, and black ethergaunt, in that order.
5) You are now level 10, with at least six standards, three moves and three swifts per round (three turns), 16th-level sorcerer casting, and 16th-level wizard casting. You also have the abilities of a Small+ abberation, a Large+ magical beast, a Large+ abberation, a Large+ elemental, and a Medium+ abberation - all of your choice.
6) Seek out a proper elder brain. It has 26 hit dice, so you cannot emulate it with greater metamorphosis.
7) Execute the fusion + astral seed combo one more time.
8) You are now ECL 9 with nine artificer levels, plus the abilities mentioned under 5 - minus a level of sorcerer and wizard casting - and 19th-level telepath manifesting.
9) Touch your thought bottle. This sets your XP back at 120 000, giving you 16 class levels. If you can reassign levels, go to 10b, else go to 10a.
10a) You're back to artificer 16, which goes nicely with wizard 15, sorcerer 15, psion 19, and three turns per round.
10b) You can now take a level in wizard, one in telepath, and five levels in Mind Mage. This gives you 19th-level wizard casting, 23rd-level telepath manifesting, and still the 15th-level sorcerer casting.

This is a relatively low-key and low-optimization execution of the combo. By taking the abilities of a barghest, you can use the same combo without HD loss. I have assumed that the class HD loss leads to immediate loss of racial casting, as well, which is not completely certain by RAW, because there is no specification of how, say, elemental weirds gain casting with HD. If you do not lose casting by repeatedly dying, you have that much more power (+3 levels sorc, +2 wiz, +1 telepath).

[Segev]

Okay, this isn't undead, but it can fit in pretty well given its lengths towards ultimate power and relative immortality:

Start as an Elan Psion (I like Telepath, but any will do. Make sure you have at least 18 Int.

By level 5, you will buy a scroll of polymorph any object and hire a wizard to cast it on you, turning you into a beholder. The combination of being an aberration already and having sufficiently high Int will push you over the top into making that permanent.

Take 2 levels of Beholder Mage. Then switch over to Cerebromancer. By level 16, you should be a 20th CL Beholder Mage and 14th ML Psion.

Note that you have no LA nor RHD, due to how you became a Beholder. You will need to use overland flight to fly around, since I don't think you get the (Ex) buoyancy that grants a Beholder its natural flight, but if you do, so much the better.

That should keep up nicely with the epic-level (26+ ECL!) casters in your group, put a unique twist on your nature, and allow you to still fit in. You may not have gone for undeath, yourself, but becoming an Elan is its own immortality-seeking sacrifice, and becoming a beholder is even more a power-seeking move, forsaking normal society for sheer potence.

[Echch]

They get Sorcerer casting equal to their HD based on their age (That stacks with actual Sorcerer levels) and cast as SLAs (Auto Silent-Still, Costly GP components replaced with XP).

Where does it say that the components are replaced with XP? Or that there are XP-costs at all? I always thought that SLAs don't cost GP or XP...

[hector212121]

According to the link you provided, the template can only be applied to giant, humanoid, and monstrous humanoid with four or more HD. Domovoi fail on two counts of being a fey, and of having only two racial hit dice.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but don't class levels add to hit dice? Wouldn't have to be RACIAL hit dice.

Also, i did mention that the gm would have to be willing to let it slide.

[Echch]

Can't you go Domovoi -> Dustform -> Incarnate Construct -> Goulish?

[Exocist]

Where does it say that the components are replaced with XP? Or that there are XP-costs at all? I always thought that SLAs don't cost GP or XP...

I was going off Archmage's 1GP->50XP thing for his SLAs.

You may be correct though, that the general rule is that SLAs don't have components at all.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yes, but it won't make you immortal, because it's not a borrowable ability.It totally is...if you choose the right creature to pull it from. PF time dragons have immortality as an explicit (Ex) ability, and taking divine ranks (including the dragon ascendant's capstone) from a deity works, too. You could totally absorb, borrow, or steal those, if you're an illithid savant, an ethereal/greater doppelganger, or a psion with the fusion/astral seed technique (which I just now noticed that you referenced later in your post).

[Callin]

So the Chameleon Class Ability- Aptitude Focus and Ability Boon you can get +6 to an Ability Score that you can change around. That seems pretty nice.