D&D 3.5 Alienist help

[Evy]

So my DM is starting a new campaign and its based in an insane asylum kinda deal and i thought hey why not lets make an alienist cuz there just weird. But here is the thing, the party likes to make there characters broken and here i am with a basic alienist. Would anyone like to help me build an over powered alienist? Or just optimize an alienist with me? I truely do need help on this as i am lost. Any and all help is wonderful thank you again.

[Kaje]

Level?



Plop

[Evy]

I build my characters at level 20 to start so i have the basis of what im going to do level by level and how im going to do it so we can start at level 20 but the actual level of the game is 6 and template and LA i can take also.

[Nifft]

3.5e Alienist is basically terrible.

The main 3.0e Alienist feature was the ability to apply the Pseudonatural template to things that normally didn't get templated, like Elementals & Outsiders.

The 3.5e Alienist removed the ability to summon elementals & outsiders. Not merely removed the ability to template them, but the ability to summon them at all.

That's a metric butt-tonne of summoning utility gone.

- - -

That said, there is a solution. Play a Binder who can bind to the web-enhancement Vestiges, and bind Zceryll.

The other 3.5e option is to roll a different kind of crazy: a Fleshwarper (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050408a&page=10). This is an insane Wizard who keeps adding parts of other monsters onto him- or her-self.

[Venger]

3.5e Alienist is basically terrible.

The main 3.0e Alienist feature was the ability to apply the Pseudonatural template to things that normally didn't get templated, like Elementals & Outsiders.

The 3.5e Alienist removed the ability to summon elementals & outsiders. Not merely removed the ability to template them, but the ability to summon them at all.

That's a metric butt-tonne of summoning utility gone.

- - -

That said, there is a solution. Play a Binder who can bind to the web-enhancement Vestiges, and bind Zceryll.

The other 3.5e option is to roll a different kind of crazy: a Fleshwarper (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050408a&page=10). This is an insane Wizard who keeps adding parts of other monsters onto him- or her-self.

This is a good overview of why you shouldn't play alienist.

If you like the fluff for alienist (who doesn't?) and want to play a summoner, you might also see if you like malconvoker. you can just fluff it differently and still be mentally ill like an alienist just as part of your background.

[Telok]

The 3.5e Alienist removed the ability to summon elementals & outsiders. Not merely removed the ability to template them, but the ability to summon them at all.

I didn't remember that and a quick online check didn't reveal to me where that would come from. Can you clarify please?

[Venger]

I didn't remember that and a quick online check didn't reveal to me where that would come from. Can you clarify please?

it's in the text of their "summon alien" ability on p22 of complete arcane.

whenever you'd summon a fiendish or celestial whatever, you summon a pseudonatural one instead. anything that is on your list besides that, such as outsiders and elementals, is no longer something an alienist can summon with the summon monster line.

[Nifft]

I didn't remember that and a quick online check didn't reveal to me where that would come from. Can you clarify please?

I drew on my book for you.

Is this clear enough?

http://i.imgur.com/NzqVeUQ.png

[Evy]

@Nifft- thanks for the advice!!! I do really like the fluff of the alienist i haven't been much of a summoner caster per say i was just merely looking at it and thought well this class seems interesting and well now im here haha. I know they add the template to aummoned creatures but do their familiars get the template as well? Because if so then would going a familiar build with them work better and have say 2 templated familiars? Of course with all the wizard familiar buffs and what not. I like how they interact with the far realm or whatever its called to be honest and i thought it would be interesting to kind of have an alien walking about haha.

[Venger]

@Nifft- thanks for the advice!!! I do really like the fluff of the alienist i haven't been much of a summoner caster per say i was just merely looking at it and thought well this class seems interesting and well now im here haha. I know they add the template to aummoned creatures but do their familiars get the template as well? Because if so then would going a familiar build with them work better and have say 2 templated familiars? Of course with all the wizard familiar buffs and what not. I like how they interact with the far realm or whatever its called to be honest and i thought it would be interesting to kind of have an alien walking about haha.

No.

If you want to make your familiar all weird looking, as mentioned above, look at fleshwarper. See if you can get your gm to houserule that you only need 4 ranks in heal, as listed so you can actually qualify for the class on time. there is an oversight and RAW you actually need 10 ranks.

[sleepyphoenixx]

@Nifft- thanks for the advice!!! I do really like the fluff of the alienist i haven't been much of a summoner caster per say i was just merely looking at it and thought well this class seems interesting and well now im here haha. I know they add the template to aummoned creatures but do their familiars get the template as well? Because if so then would going a familiar build with them work better and have say 2 templated familiars? Of course with all the wizard familiar buffs and what not. I like how they interact with the far realm or whatever its called to be honest and i thought it would be interesting to kind of have an alien walking about haha.

The problem with Alienist is that most of it's (substantial) class features are geared for summoning. You spend 2 feats to enter (SF:Conjuration, Augment Summoning) that also focus on summoning.
But the meat of Summon Monster spells lies with outsiders and their spell-likes. They also make the best brawlers at higher levels.
Adding the pseudonatural template to animals doesn't change that, so the class is essentially worthless because it focuses on summoning while stripping your summoning spells of the best monster choices at the same time.

You're still a full caster, but you'd get the same abilities just staying a wizard - only you'd be a better summoner too.

Your familiar does get the pseudonatural template at level 5, but that's not really a substantial power boost. You could maybe get somewhere if Extra Familiar is allowed, but it's a gimmick build and nowhere near broken (or at least not more broken than a level 20 wizard is anyway while spending most of his feats on things that don't improve his casting).

It's not that Alienist isn't perfectly playable, but breaking a class that's its own worst enemy is a pretty tall order.

[Segev]

While it would be a totally different build, I will also offer an idea of playing a Psion(Shaper). Your astral constructs can look like whatever you want, so you could make them into eldritch-horror-like-things.

[Evy]

Ahh so alienist is a summoner whos limited itself as a summoner.. Pretty messed up.. I am however reading on the fleshwarper now and it seems pretty neat i have to read up on it more of course, but aside from all of this, isn't there a PrC that allows for more then one familiar?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Ahh so alienist is a summoner whos limited itself as a summoner.. Pretty messed up.. I am however reading on the fleshwarper now and it seems pretty neat i have to read up on it more of course, but aside from all of this, isn't there a PrC that allows for more then one familiar?

There's no class that grants more than one familiar. The rules explicitly state that multiple sources of familiars stack the relevant levels instead of granting additional familiars.
The only exception is the Extra Familiar feat, but it's from Dragon Magazine (and thus third party and often banned).

You can get around that restriction by playing a druid with the Urban Companion ACF (which is almost exactly like a familiar but not actually a familiar, rules-wise) and theurging with an arcane caster that gets a familiar, but it's far from optimal.

[Telok]

I drew on my book for you.

Is this clear enough?

http://i.imgur.com/NzqVeUQ.png

Ok. The online sources all managed to omit that paragraph. They just mentioned the template swap and I don't have these things memorized.

[Xuldarinar]

I say this as a huge fan of the far-realm and all things flavored towards it; Alienist is a trap.



Advice;

-Binder for Zceryll; This is a powerful route, but you arn't a spellcaster. We can, however, consider going the route of an anima mage. This would help integrate later aspects into it. If you want to go all in on this then Knight of the Sacred Seal wouldn't be a bad idea.

-Cerebrosis; From Dragon 330. You take 1 feat and gain access to 11 spells, ranging from fear effects, summoning particular horrifying creatures from the far-realm, giving people the finger to send them to beyond, teleportation, to the highest which summons a part of the far-realm to your location. I'd invest in this if I were you, so long as you have spellcasting.

-Spell Soverign; From Dragon 357. You'd be able to bring spells to life, something suitable especially if you were to take Cerebrosis. Living motes of the far realm, drawn into the world and ready to fight at your command. Shortcoming is, the only cerebrotic spells that are eleigable are a 5th level and a 9th level, but a living fear effect would be amazing and later on a living mote of the far-realm attacking people would be something else.

-Dread Witch; I only bring this up given a thought. With cerebrosis you get fear effects. With spell soverign you can make a 5th level one explicitly of the far realm come to life. With dread witch, you can make it even nastier. But creating a creature of fear from a piece of the far realm that makes people panic, or even does Wisdom damage, and specializing in the fear element of that might be getting too far away from alienist.

-Alienist; ...Like I said, and others, it is a trap. I approve of the flavor, but don't lean on that alone.

-Fleshwarper; It will get you the aberrant familiar, but... nothing else towards summoning. But you can modify yourself and it is thematically pleasing.

-Aberrant Paragon; From Dragon 332. You can become an aberration, get ability modification, and it is a 2/3 class in terms of advancement. Sadly it only advances a handful of classes, 3 in terms of casting, but one of which is explicitly alienist so it is something to consider transitioning into if you have the resource on hand.

-Serve an Elder Evil; Father Llymic is a being of the far-realm. If you are evil and swear service to him, you can get bonus vile feats. Gives you ties to the far-realm, ice, darkness, and the ancient elves.. if you want that. Might help with the optimization process anyways.

[Kaje]

On the other hand, Alienist is a perfectly good class if you want to do a thing well and don't want to be as powerful as you can possibly be. Placing a limit on a T1/2 class isn't bad, especially if you get aliens out of it. Not everyone wants to be god.

[Darrin]

The restriction doesn't affect druids, who rely primarily on the SNA line, but also have conjure ice beast and summon desert ally spells.

Clerics still have SM instead of SNA, but they can also cast the conjure ice beast line, which gives them access to both SM and SNA forms (for combat, at least).

So... Planar Druid with Urban Companion, Aberration Wildshape, cast enhance wild shape, switch to Nilshai (Unapproachable East) for two standard actions per round.

Race: Human
Stub: Druid 5/Alienist 10/Druid +5
Feats: Aberration Blood (1st), Spell Focus: Conjuration (1st), Augment Summoning (3rd), Natural Spell (6th), Aberration Wild Shape (9th), Summon Elemental (12th), Minor Shapeshift (15th), Deepspawn (18th)

[Inevitability]

The restriction doesn't affect druids, who rely primarily on the SNA line, but also have conjure ice beast and summon desert ally spells.

Clerics still have SM instead of SNA, but they can also cast the conjure ice beast line, which gives them access to both SM and SNA forms (for combat, at least).

So... Planar Druid with Urban Companion, Aberration Wildshape, cast enhance wild shape, switch to Nilshai (Unapproachable East) for two standard actions per round.

Race: Human
Stub: Druid 5/Alienist 10/Druid +5
Feats: Aberration Blood (1st), Spell Focus: Conjuration (1st), Augment Summoning (3rd), Natural Spell (6th), Aberration Wild Shape (9th), Summon Elemental (12th), Minor Shapeshift (15th), Deepspawn (18th)

The wisdom penalty is pretty annoying on a druid, though.

[Troacctid]

-Cerebrosis; From Dragon 330. You take 1 feat and gain access to 11 spells, ranging from fear effects, summoning particular horrifying creatures from the far-realm, giving people the finger to send them to beyond, teleportation, to the highest which summons a part of the far-realm to your location. I'd invest in this if I were you, so long as you have spellcasting.
Actually, you can't really take it as a feat. The only way to get it is by performing the Rite of the Blot, which gives you Cerebrosis as a bonus feat upon completion. Since the rite is also a prerequisite for the feat, you couldn't spend a normal feat slot on it even if you wanted to.

[Xuldarinar]

Actually, you can't really take it as a feat. The only way to get it is by performing the Rite of the Blot, which gives you Cerebrosis as a bonus feat upon completion. Since the rite is also a prerequisite for the feat, you couldn't spend a normal feat slot on it even if you wanted to.

Thats true, but it is a feat nevertheless. You just have to complete a couple of skill checks and either find the right place or... spend gold on materials to complete the ritual independent of a cerebrotic blot..


Glad to see though someone else has access to it. Its a wonderful resource to this theme.

[Venger]

The wisdom penalty is pretty annoying on a druid, though.

Dynamic priest (mostly) takes care of it. druids mostly don't use spells with saves unless they focus on blasting, and as a summoner, you'll be using even those less.

[Troacctid]

Thats true, but it is a feat nevertheless. You just have to complete a couple of skill checks and either find the right place or... spend gold on materials to complete the ritual independent of a cerebrotic blot..


Glad to see though someone else has access to it. Its a wonderful resource to this theme.
I looked it up because you mentioned it. It is pretty nifty. :smalltongue:

I believe you have to make the skill checks regardless of whether you have access to a blot. Using a blot just saves you 1000 gp.

[Xuldarinar]

I looked it up because you mentioned it. It is pretty nifty. :smalltongue:

I believe you have to make the skill checks regardless of whether you have access to a blot. Using a blot just saves you 1000 gp.

That is correct. Knowledge (arcana) 25 to figure out it exists, then 28 to figure out how.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The restriction doesn't affect druids, who rely primarily on the SNA line, but also have conjure ice beast and summon desert ally spells.

Clerics still have SM instead of SNA, but they can also cast the conjure ice beast line, which gives them access to both SM and SNA forms (for combat, at least).

So... Planar Druid with Urban Companion, Aberration Wildshape, cast enhance wild shape, switch to Nilshai (Unapproachable East) for two standard actions per round.

Race: Human
Stub: Druid 5/Alienist 10/Druid +5
Feats: Aberration Blood (1st), Spell Focus: Conjuration (1st), Augment Summoning (3rd), Natural Spell (6th), Aberration Wild Shape (9th), Summon Elemental (12th), Minor Shapeshift (15th), Deepspawn (18th)

Leaving aside that Conjure Ice Beast and Summon Desert Ally are inferior to SNA at anything but the lower levels because of the specific templates they apply (losing most special abilities), the Summon Alien class feature doesn't affect SNA anyway because it does not summon fiendish or celestial creatures. The restrictions not applying either doesn't really count for much with that.
CIB is also Creation, not Summoning, so most summoning feats don't work with it. Which is obviously a problem for a build that invests heavily into summoning.
Druids don't have familiars who'd benefit from the pseudonatural template either.

So i have to ask: What exactly does a druid get out of dumping 10 levels into Alienist? The class features either do nothing for you, give minimal benefits or are actually making you weaker.
And what good will Aberration Wild Shape do you when you take 10 levels in a class that doesn't advance wild shape HD or uses?

[Darrin]

CIB is also Creation, not Summoning, so most summoning feats don't work with it.


Conjure ice beast text concludes with, "In all other ways, conjure ice beast functions like summon monster 1." So there's an argument that it should work with summoning feats and othe similar effects. However, it's not a particularly strong argument.



Druids don't have familiars who'd benefit from the pseudonatural template either.


Urban Companion is the equivalent of a sorcerer's familiar.



So i have to ask: What exactly does a druid get out of dumping 10 levels into Alienist?


Very little. But even with all of the disadvantages of an alienist, you're still a Druidzilla.



And what good will Aberration Wild Shape do you when you take 10 levels in a class that doesn't advance wild shape HD or uses?

That is a problem. Since the nilshai is 8 HD, it's probably best to go Druid 8/Alienist 10/Something 2.

[Extra Anchovies]

Mastery of Madness (Player's Guide to Eberron) lets you replace fiendish/celestial summoned creatures with pseudonatural equivalents and doesn't cut off access to the non-fiendish/celestial options. Prerequisites aren't too bad (Iron Will, Spellcraft 9 ranks, Knowledge: Planes 2 ranks), and the CL check you have to make each time you summon a pseudonatural creature to avoid getting a rod of wonder effect is pretty trivial at DC 15+[spell level].

So yeah. Take the feat, and use Fleshwarper if you want a mutant familiar.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

So my DM is starting a new campaign and its based in an insane asylum kinda deal
+

But here is the thing, the party likes to make there characters broken

Ever read tainted scholar...


Human (necroplitan)(spellstiched)
Shar'ir5/tainted scholar10/fleshwarper5(?don't know if i spelt that right)
human feat: Sacrificial Mastery (book of vile darkness)
lvl1: Spell focus(evil) (Players handbook)
lvl3: violate spell (book of vile darkness)
TAINT: mad faith (heroes of horror)
TAINT: Eldritch Corruption
lvl6:Metamagic School Focus ( Complete mage)
lvl9:graft flesh(undead)
lvl12: Craft contingent spell (complete arcana)
lvl15: corrupt spell (book of vile darkness)
lvl18:life sense (libris mortis)
Easy break down:
lvl6(taint lite): starting lvl ok so you can't do alot yet but still who cares madness is you weapon. cast all the 0lvl spells you want when ever possible (exept for in combat!!!) each 1 or 2 give you some more higher lvl spells. also make sur you have a 20 wis minimum so you can get full use of spellstiched.
lvl9(body editor lite): the next lvl you can go into flesh warper but i doubt you can make the save. but hey graft flesh. give yourself vampire fangs from libris mortis pg80
lvl16(bod editor):finally you get flesh warper. nice flavor but your base of power comes from tainted scholar.


oh no it can't be... or wait it is oh by the ultra deities the taint noooooo!!!!!!!!

lvl20(TAINT): by now you have an infinite gallery of spells, all of the are evil. summon some elemental taints so they can taint you with more taint than taint taints to taint. want a taint salade just eat it up you can die from it you immune from its negative effects. 500 next thing you know 1000 that's freaking ultra ungodly taint just cast taint with you metamagic taint so you can get more taint for you taint salads, and don't forget to add some taint dressing.


!!!!TAINT!!!!

NOW YOU SEE EVIL ALWAYS TRIUMPH
BECAUSE GOOD IS.....DUMB


ask you dm about this
taint gen deals 1 taint per attack also it has to go to to far realm for its spells.
:)

[Venger]

Mastery of Madness (Player's Guide to Eberron) lets you replace fiendish/celestial summoned creatures with pseudonatural equivalents and doesn't cut off access to the non-fiendish/celestial options. Prerequisites aren't too bad (Iron Will, Spellcraft 9 ranks, Knowledge: Planes 2 ranks), and the CL check you have to make each time you summon a pseudonatural creature to avoid getting a rod of wonder effect is pretty trivial at DC 15+[spell level].

So yeah. Take the feat, and use Fleshwarper if you want a mutant familiar.

just chill out in the otyugh hole with all the other characters who're getting iron will for various feats and classes. swap stories. share an order of jalapeno poppers.

shattered gates of slaughtergarde's dark scholar is also a good thematic fit if you wanted to go lovecraft with your insanity. it's a roll-your-own loremaster-like class with modular class features that also supports your casting and beefs up your spells.

[Nifft]

@Nifft- thanks for the advice!!! I do really like the fluff of the alienist i haven't been much of a summoner caster per say i was just merely looking at it and thought well this class seems interesting and well now im here haha. I KNOW, RIGHT?

The 3.0e Alienist was fantastic, and I remember reading a really good campaign journal which featured one, and then I looked at the 3.5e version and ... UGH.

Such a let-down.


I like how they interact with the far realm or whatever its called to be honest and i thought it would be interesting to kind of have an alien walking about haha.

So, there are a bunch of good ideas above mine, especially in Xuldarinar's post. I'm going to expand on one of these ideas: the Anima Mage.

You can get into Anima Mage pretty early, even with a conservative DM, at level 5 (after 4 levels):
- Wizard 3
- Binder 1
... plus 2 feats:
- Improved Binding
- Extend Spell (or any other Metamagic, but Extend is particularly good because it leads to Persistent)

If your DM accepts Precocious Apprentice and gives you access to an NPC with Psychic Reformation then you might be able to get away with as few as 2 levels. There's also an even more questionable trick which might allow you in after only 1 level and 3 feats, but I don't like that trick.

Anyway.

You're in Anima Mage with some spellcasting and access to Naberius. What do you do? Tap into secrets the likes of which man was never meant to know.

Which forces? Depends on your alignment. Anything that costs you mental ability damage sounds great. Maybe work with your DM to re-flavor some Corrupt or Sanctified spells into Aberrant spells. Maybe ask for a feat by which you pay one point of Wisdom drain in order to summon a critter with the Pseudonatural template instead (and your Wisdom comes back in an hour because Naberius). Maybe just cast Corrupt and Sanctified spells all day.

Now your character is both (a) regularly consorting with forces from beyond the known metaphysical universe, and (b) spamming powers that are well-known to drive humans mad.

Naberius is fun for playing up the alien, but he's not your only option. Some other good ones include:
- Dahlver-Nar's maddening moan, and the way his Shield Self power rewards you for taking damage.
- Dantalion's powers and the fact that a human face appears on your torso.
- Zceryll's sign and powers are 100% pure alien.

Basically, you can be a Wizard who trades one level of spellcasting progression for a whole alien power source, and also later on you can use Persistent Spell 3/day without paying the level increase cost. So you gain a bunch of power overall, and you get to be the host body for an alien consciousness every day.

Throw on some thematic effects (like maybe Focalor's lighting strikes are actually evanescent tentacles), and it's a very good match for all the good stuff that Alienist was supposed to deliver.

Plus Zceryll actually kinda does deliver on being the best summoner, spamming aliens all day.

[TheBrassDuke]

The 3.0e Alienist was fantastic, and I remember reading a really good campaign journal which featured one, and then I looked at the 3.5e version and ... UGH

That would be Mostin the Metagnostic, from the (ongoing, but not recently updated) Tales of Wyre!

FANTASTIC campaign log.

[Inevitability]

That would be Mostin the Metagnostic, from the (ongoing, but not recently updated) Tales of Wyre!

FANTASTIC campaign log.

Your use of 'ongoing' is misleading here. :smalltongue:

That said, ToW is great indeed, and an excellent example of how the game can be balanced at Epic if neither player nor DM is actively working towards this.

[ShurikVch]

Note: Kaorti - the most well-known inhabitants of Far Realm - are summonable via Summon Monster II
Also, they have Vile Transformation SA, which allow - after 8 hours - to torn living Humanoid into another Kaorti, and living nonhumanoid - kaorti thrall (like Fiendish Creature, except with True Strike instead Smite Good)
Thus, two persisted summons before the good night sleep - and new shiny kaorti thrall in the morning

If you interested in changing your familiar, there are various spells such as Embrace the Dark Chaos, Mineralize Warrior, or Planar Familiar (https://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011020a)
Also, you may try to use Warpsword (Book of Vile Darkness) on your Familiar - in order to get some beneficial mutation from effects of Warp Touch. Better will be to make it at backstory: no need to actually have the sword, and also no risk of negative mutations at bad rolls (10 or less, for example, is instant death)

[Eldariel]

Cerebriosis summons are actually quite good. The sad part is that they're separate spells and not added to your usual lists so preparing them costs you a lot of versatility though, but the Escalation checks are easy to make and that essentially gives you Malconvoker's Fiendish Legion for free - and as they're summons, normal summon-buffing effects (Rapid Summoning, Augment Summoning) apply to them. Call Nightseed at level 15 has you at base Will-save of +9, +6 Resistance from Superior Resistance requiring only +5 more from miscellaneous bonuses/stat bonuses/etc. to reach 95% chance of making it (and there's any number of ways to reroll 1s). Kaortic Hulk isn't much worse (7 + 6 base vs. DC 19).

And two Nightseeds forcing DC 30 Reflex-saves (with Augment Summoning) from all opponents it can fit each round is pretty darn nice even with the chance that it go haywire. Kaortic Hulks are decent fighters for their level too complete with access to Silence and Invisibility. Cranial Encysters are pretty awesome for a different reason, going around forcing DC 13/18 Will-saves vs. being extremely screwed. Of course, the kicker is that you get a swarm of 5 of those with a DC 16 Will-save (though that's significantly harder than the other two as you have less WBL and spells to make up the difference). Even Amoebic Crawlers are pretty good if you have the summoning setup that early. Two hits at +4 with Improved Grab (and +9 Grapple) is excellent for that level and getting two of them is a steal if you can make the Save. Though this is by far the riskiest save; you're looking at +3 base vs. DC 13 with next to no WBL or helpful spells to speak of. But even one Amoebic Crawler is competitive with e.g. Fiendish Wolf while packing a lot of HP (though no AC).


Though of course, while you get decent amounts of combat power out of those summons particularly if you can make the Escalation saves, losing out on the versatility of the default Summon-spells is huge, and you aren't getting much in terms of SLAs out of them. Plus Kaortic Hulks and Nightseeds come with the added pain of the Reluctant Servant clause (though they're 1 round/level and Dismissable so it's not that bad).