Hellspawned Grace interaction?

[Gruftzwerg]

I have a question about the warlock invocation "Hellspawned Grace".

My question is: Can I apply the "specific trumps general"-rule on it?

Normal:
Hellspawned Grace makes full (!) use of the polymorph subschool rules (Complete Arcane) and changes your statblock completely (you loose all your abilities and gain "all" abilities of the Hellcat). you loose your regular stats, feats, spells and class abilities.

Specific:
Can I still apply feats/class features that specific alter polymorph effects? Like going Warshaper? Imho I would say that things like Warshaper are specific and trumps the general Hellspawned Grace/Polymorph Subschool rules but I am not sure.

[Venger]

I have a question about the warlock invocation "Hellspawned Grace".

My question is: Can I apply the "specific trumps general"-rule on it?

Normal:
Hellspawned Grace makes full (!) use of the polymorph subschool rules (Complete Arcane) and changes your statblock completely (you loose all your abilities and gain "all" abilities of the Hellcat). you loose your regular stats, feats, spells and class abilities.

Specific:
Can I still apply feats/class features that specific alter polymorph effects? Like going Warshaper? Imho I would say that things like Warshaper are specific and trumps the general Hellspawned Grace/Polymorph Subschool rules but I am not sure.

You don't qualify for warshaper. Hellspawned grace isn't one of the ways that lets you in. Besides, hellspawned grace is a horrible invocation. While you're in hellcat form, you lose access to all of your invocations. Not a good trade.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Can I apply the "specific trumps general"-rule on it?

Normal:
Hellspawned Grace makes full (!) use of the polymorph subschool rules (Complete Arcane) and changes your statblock completely (you loose all your abilities and gain "all" abilities of the Hellcat). you loose your regular stats, feats, spells and class abilities.

Specific:
Can I still apply feats/class features that specific alter polymorph effects? Like going Warshaper? Imho I would say that things like Warshaper are specific and trumps the general Hellspawned Grace/Polymorph Subschool rules but I am not sure.
well

You take on the form and statistics of a hellcat (MM 54) for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your warlock level. This is a polymorph effect (see page 91).
and on pg 91 it says

A spell of the polymorph subschool changes the target's form from one shape to another.

a prerequisite for warshaper is polymorph sla and this is effectivly literaly a polymorph subschool sla. i would conclude yes

[Gruftzwerg]

a prerequisite for warshaper is polymorph sla and this is effectivly literaly a polymorph subschool sla. i would conclude yes

that is why I too think that warlock qualifies for warshaper.




Besides, hellspawned grace is a horrible invocation. While you're in hellcat form, you lose access to all of your invocations. Not a good trade.

I know that. As said, you loose everything your normal character has on stats & abilities. But the question was, is it possible to trump that rule with other specific rules like warshaper and other polymorph related abilities/prc/talents ?

Imho it should, which would make Hellspawned Grace less terrible (maybe still not viable but that's not the question here). Further imho people think it is bad, because they don't think about abusing the rules > "specific trumps general" (maybe they are more ways to boost that invocation, but that's something for another debate, lets first clear the ruling^^).

[Nifft]

It's certainly possible for a DM to say that Warshaper was written before the Polymorph subschool, and therefore Warshaper should either be modified, or should not be allowed in a game with no access to the older spells. IMHO that would be entirely within the intent of the rules: Warshaper is supposed to apply when you're in a different form, and Polymorph subschool spells do give you a different form.

But RAW I think it doesn't work, because the Polymorph subschool spell strips out your Warshaper abilities. :annoyed:

If you're using RAW, then it looks like Warshaper becomes much less interesting in a game which uses only spells from the Polymorph subschool.

You could still get good utility from Warshaper via Changeling Wildshape Ranger 5 / Warshaper 5, but it's much less good for a caster to mix-in.

[Gruftzwerg]

It's certainly possible for a DM to say that Warshaper was written before the Polymorph subschool, and therefore Warshaper should either be modified, or should not be allowed in a game with no access to the older spells. IMHO that would be entirely within the intent of the rules: Warshaper is supposed to apply when you're in a different form, and Polymorph subschool spells do give you a different form.

yeah the release date of the books is the biggest issue here I guess..




But RAW I think it doesn't work, because the Polymorph subschool spell strips out your Warshaper abilities. :annoyed:

If you're using RAW, then it looks like Warshaper becomes much less interesting in a game which uses only spells from the Polymorph subschool.

really hard to tell which rule trumps the other, but as said I would be for specific (warshaper) trumps general (polymorph subschool). :smallconfused:

[Venger]

well

and on pg 91 it says

a prerequisite for warshaper is polymorph sla and this is effectivly literaly a polymorph subschool sla. i would conclude yes

it requires the specific spell polymorph as a sla, not just a spell with the polymorph subschool.


that is why I too think that warlock qualifies for warshaper.

I know that. As said, you loose everything your normal character has on stats & abilities. But the question was, is it possible to trump that rule with other specific rules like warshaper and other polymorph related abilities/prc/talents ?

Imho it should, which would make Hellspawned Grace less terrible (maybe still not viable but that's not the question here). Further imho people think it is bad, because they don't think about abusing the rules > "specific trumps general" (maybe they are more ways to boost that invocation, but that's something for another debate, lets first clear the ruling^^).

There is no specific trumping general at play here. Polymorph subschool makes you lose all your class features. Warshaper says nothing about superseding this rule.

[Extra Anchovies]

A Warlock with Hellspawned Grace does not qualify for Warshaper.

1. Warshaper requires "Polymorph as a spell-like ability". In rules text, italics are used when a spell is being referred to, e.g. "a cure spell" et cetera. I can't find any rule stating this directly, but in the DMG and PHB I can find three instances where non-spell-referencing italic text appears in a table and has its meaning explicitly stated.
2. Complete Warrior was printed before the polymorph subschool was established. Therefore, the only possible rules meaning of "Polymorph as a spell-like ability" is "a spell-like ability which replicates the Polymorph spell".

[Gruftzwerg]

A Warlock with Hellspawned Grace does not qualify for Warshaper.

1. Warshaper requires "Polymorph as a spell-like ability". In rules text, italics are used when a spell is being referred to, e.g. "a cure spell" et cetera. I can't find any rule stating this directly, but in the DMG and PHB I can find three instances where non-spell-referencing italic text appears in a table and has its meaning explicitly stated.
2. Complete Warrior was printed before the polymorph subschool was established. Therefore, the only possible rules meaning of "Polymorph as a spell-like ability" is "a spell-like ability which replicates the Polymorph spell".

well and what about the fact that all monsters (as far as I'm aware) with SLA: Polymorph have been changed to either Alternate Form or Shape Change.
the only legal way to gain a Polymorph SLA is via Innate Spell (at epic lvls only, due to requirement of spellslot of 8 lvl higher than the original spell) or Archmage. Imho the warlock would be the only "normal" entry possible for polymorph SLA cause all other options for poly-sla doesn't make any sense at all.

Beside from qualifying or not. The main question is, can "Hellspawned Grace" be altered in any way?
And I don't get why "specific trumps general" shouldn't apply here?
Imho the polymorph subschool sets the general rule. This can be altered by specific rules of either the spell/-like ability itself or other sources that specifically change either the polymorph subschool or the polymorph effect (which Washaper should if Hellspawned Grace would meet the requirements).
as example: you invoke Hellspaned Grace. Your Warshaper abilities (which you still have at the moment of invoking) alter the outcome of the invocation:
- +4 Str & Con
- expandable limbs
- crit immunity
...
Note that all warshaper abilities are morph related abilities who target polymorph (subschool) effects/spells. That's my reasoning why I think it's "specific trumps general".

edit: just a further note on the requirements of Warshaper:
all creatures mentioned for polymorph SLA have been changed to something else as stated above, you can look it up). So you(r DM) should be aware that this prc need some special rule adjustment due to many polymorph changes.
And since you don't need a poly/shape ability with more than one possible outcome (see Bear Warrior), Warshaper should be accessible for Hellspawned Grace. Further the monsters noted with SLA: Polymorph all had limited or altered versions of Polymorph (the reason why it all was changed). The abilities are/where limited versions of Polymorph and still qualified. Hellspawned Grace is imho on the same state as the abilities mentioned from the monsters in the Warshaper requirement block.