The Walking Dead, Season 7

[Pex]

Can I even come up with the words?

Evil. Pure horrific evil.

I'm glad I can't remember the last time I've seen something like that in a movie or tv show, though I know I have. There's lots to say, but what's the point?

Evil. Pure horrific evil.

[Dienekes]

AHHHahahaha! I just won $20, maybe more. Betting on who they'd kill off.

Negan is perfect, as suspected.

[Fawkes]

AHHHahahaha! I just won $20, maybe more. Betting on who they'd kill off.

Seems hardly fair, given the amount of leaks that happened over the summer.

[Giggling Ghast]

I read the comic where Glen had his head smashed in, so I was prepared.

[Psyren]

For those who missed it or would like to review key events, you can watch it (legally!) for free on AMC's website (http://www.amc.com/shows/the-walking-dead/full-episodes/season-07/episode-01/the-day-will-come-when-you-wont-be), at least for now.

And yes, the unlucky two were my top two to go, so nothing unexpected here either.

The funniest part for me was after Daryl's outburst, when Neegan told his cronies not to kill him, I was half-expecting him to turn and say "Are you all mad? His fangirls would riot worse than ten herds of walkers!"


Anyway, to spark a discussion - I know the comics and therefore the show continue on from here but I'm starting to feel a little jaded. The cycle seems to be they get a base for awhile, new characters join up, sexytimes ensue, then they run afoul of the local warband, secondary characters die and are replaced, and they finally topple the two-bit dictator but are forced to move on to the next bolthole. Rinse, repeat; nothing changes on a macro level. In the beginning, the show was about finding a place of safety, but also figuring out what was going on and how to potentially halt or reverse it so that civilization could make a comeback. There was an overall goal beyond worrying where their next meal was coming from and how much of it they could harvest before someone with a god complex ruined all their plans. I guess I'm asking, is this the show's rut now or does it ever get any closer to the sci-fi roots that spawned it?

I mean, the show's message - "Man is the REAL monster! Blows your mind, don't it???" has been thoroughly explored at this point. Yeah, we had the cult leaders and the cannibals and the rapists and now even the ingenue town that was completely out of its depth in the new world. So... what's left?

[Tvtyrant]

My brother and I laughed our way through this one. There are lots of ways to create an empire, but he used none of them. No appointing of a leader over their group, the wrong hostage (should have been Carl) and not splitting them up among existing groups. Murdering two adult men who are useful in a zombie world was just the icing on his bad leadership.

One of the weird aspects of WD was the group moving from formerly densely populated zone to the next, instead of trying to get as far away as the east coast mega-cities as possible. The best possible route would have been northwest and try to hit the Dakotas, but they headed to DC instead. How many possible warlords could Kansas or Wyoming have had?

[Dienekes]

Seems hardly fair, given the amount of leaks that happened over the summer.

We had that bet going since a week after the season finale. I wasn't even aware of the leaks.

[Pex]

Anyway, to spark a discussion - I know the comics and therefore the show continue on from here but I'm starting to feel a little jaded. The cycle seems to be they get a base for awhile, new characters join up, sexytimes ensue, then they run afoul of the local warband, secondary characters die and are replaced, and they finally topple the two-bit dictator but are forced to move on to the next bolthole. Rinse, repeat; nothing changes on a macro level. In the beginning, the show was about finding a place of safety, but also figuring out what was going on and how to potentially halt or reverse it so that civilization could make a comeback. There was an overall goal beyond worrying where their next meal was coming from and how much of it they could harvest before someone with a god complex ruined all their plans. I guess I'm asking, is this the show's rut now or does it ever get any closer to the sci-fi roots that spawned it?

I mean, the show's message - "Man is the REAL monster! Blows your mind, don't it???" has been thoroughly explored at this point. Yeah, we had the cult leaders and the cannibals and the rapists and now even the ingenue town that was completely out of its depth in the new world. So... what's left?

That's pretty much every zombie apocalypse story. It's rare to have a happy ending, though it has happened (Warm Bodies, World War Z). Safe Havens never last. Either the leader is an evil bastard our heroes have to kill or some donkey cavity outsider wants to take over/destroy it whom our heroes have to kill, and the Safe Haven gets destroyed in the process anyway. Fear The Walking Dead is putting a little twist on it. While it was a donkey cavity who ruined the Colony Safe Haven, who had an almost evil leader, it was Our Heroes The Group who ruined the Hotel Safe Haven. The Group is becoming the donkey cavity for whatever NPCs they meet.

[Callos_DeTerran]

My brother and I laughed our way through this one. There are lots of ways to create an empire, but he used none of them. No appointing of a leader over their group, the wrong hostage (should have been Carl) and not splitting them up among existing groups. Murdering two adult men who are useful in a zombie world was just the icing on his bad leadership.

Rick is his appointed leader and that was very much was the right hostage. If he'd taken Carl, he'd have given Rick a reason to come after him if for no other reason than not knowing what Negan was doing to his son. Negan eliminated all the threats to his rule in one fell swoop. He broke Rick, has Daryl (an obvious trouble maker) right where he can keep an eye on him), and removed two others persistent in going against the grain but also capable fighters/soldiers in their own right. Rick's support network for making decisions and acting on them has been gutted and Rick himself seems to have the nerve to fight back ripped out of him.

[Dienekes]

My brother and I laughed our way through this one. There are lots of ways to create an empire, but he used none of them. No appointing of a leader over their group, the wrong hostage (should have been Carl) and not splitting them up among existing groups. Murdering two adult men who are useful in a zombie world was just the icing on his bad leadership.

One of the weird aspects of WD was the group moving from formerly densely populated zone to the next, instead of trying to get as far away as the east coast mega-cities as possible. The best possible route would have been northwest and try to hit the Dakotas, but they headed to DC instead. How many possible warlords could Kansas or Wyoming have had?

What? Numerous empires didn't put their own leader over the conquered group: Attila and Genghis Khan let most of their conquered territory to have their own leadership remain active, so long as they followed the laws of the conquerors: mainly, pay me taxes, and I won't kill you. Don't kill any of my messengers. And if I call upon you to join my armies, do it, or I'll kill you.*

Which seems pretty close to what Negan has done.

*It should be noted that the Khan did appoint rulers over some overarching territories, and some major cities. But even then, that largely happened after Genghis' death, or near it.

As to who Negan killed, I think he just neutered Rick. On their first meeting, he killed two of his best fighters and one of his best scouts. Then kidnapped a third who was also one of the top fighters and scouts. That and all 3 of them were in Rick's inner circle.

That said, Negan really seems to get off on forcing people to do what he wants without killing them. Instilling into Rick and his group that if any of them **** with him, he will not kill them, he'll go after all of their families. Which, again, is exactly like something Genghis Khan did, when he murdered all of one kings kids. Probably would have been easier to just kill off Rick though.

[Smitemeister]

Well, I personally can't wait till Negan gets what he deserves... but I hope he will last more than one season. The creators sure know how to set up their antagonists.

[Tvtyrant]

Rick is his appointed leader and that was very much was the right hostage. If he'd taken Carl, he'd have given Rick a reason to come after him if for no other reason than not knowing what Negan was doing to his son. Negan eliminated all the threats to his rule in one fell swoop. He broke Rick, has Daryl (an obvious trouble maker) right where he can keep an eye on him), and removed two others persistent in going against the grain but also capable fighters/soldiers in their own right. Rick's support network for making decisions and acting on them has been gutted and Rick himself seems to have the nerve to fight back ripped out of him.

I'm going to disagree with you there. Hostage taking has two points, one is forcing compliance and the second is instilling obedience into the next generation. Taking Carl means converting Carl into one of his own followers, and when he hands him back over to replace Rick in his old age the group is more permanently attached to Negan's organization. This is an extremely common and effective tactic, and shows up everywhere from Mongolia to Caesar to Shaka Zulu.

[Dienekes]

I'm going to disagree with you there. Hostage taking has two points, one is forcing compliance and the second is instilling obedience into the next generation. Taking Carl means converting Carl into one of his own followers, and when he hands him back over to replace Rick in his old age the group is more permanently attached to Negan's organization. This is an extremely common and effective tactic, and shows up everywhere from Mongolia to Caesar to Shaka Zulu.

It's also failed a lot. As numerous times the son when released uses the tactics they learned against their host: one of the Herods, William Marshall, Aetius, and Matsudaira/Tokugawa who didn't actively fight his captors but sure as hell broke the alliance with the Imigawa as soon as it was politically expedient.

But that's beside the point really. The only way Carl gets in as leader of Rick's crew is through noble lineage laws, which no one uses anymore. Bringing it Carl as his puppet would work just as well or not well as putting anyone else in the Savior's retinue as puppet.

[ryuplaneswalker]

For those who missed it or would like to review key events, you can watch it (legally!) for free on AMC's website (http://www.amc.com/shows/the-walking-dead/full-episodes/season-07/episode-01/the-day-will-come-when-you-wont-be), at least for now.

And yes, the unlucky two were my top two to go, so nothing unexpected here either.

The funniest part for me was after Daryl's outburst, when Neegan told his cronies not to kill him, I was half-expecting him to turn and say "Are you all mad? His fangirls would riot worse than ten herds of walkers!"


Anyway, to spark a discussion - I know the comics and therefore the show continue on from here but I'm starting to feel a little jaded. The cycle seems to be they get a base for awhile, new characters join up, sexytimes ensue, then they run afoul of the local warband, secondary characters die and are replaced, and they finally topple the two-bit dictator but are forced to move on to the next bolthole. Rinse, repeat; nothing changes on a macro level. In the beginning, the show was about finding a place of safety, but also figuring out what was going on and how to potentially halt or reverse it so that civilization could make a comeback. There was an overall goal beyond worrying where their next meal was coming from and how much of it they could harvest before someone with a god complex ruined all their plans. I guess I'm asking, is this the show's rut now or does it ever get any closer to the sci-fi roots that spawned it?

I mean, the show's message - "Man is the REAL monster! Blows your mind, don't it???" has been thoroughly explored at this point. Yeah, we had the cult leaders and the cannibals and the rapists and now even the ingenue town that was completely out of its depth in the new world. So... what's left?

Nothing is left but the Plot Treadmill, you forgot one part though. "The fight between Rick's hard grim dark survival instincts and his humanity" That we have gone through almost every season!

[SaintRidley]

Without putting comic spoilers down specifically, the beat-baddie-find-new-place treadmill is over at this point for the foreseeable future. As of right now, 59 comics past where this episode covers, they're still in Alexandria.

[Psyren]

Oh, I wouldn't expect them to move on from Alexandria in either medium. Its presence allows a few modern conveniences to exist during the apocalypse (like showers and shaving), which (a) makes life easier for the actors (no more Wilderness Rick) and (b) facilitates other sources of human drama (things like convalescence and, more importantly, nookie.) The comic of course is less tethered by these concerns, but Kirkman is unlikely to take his cash cow to pastures the TV show will have a hard time following.