Archer (sniper) build help please

[Rogozhin]

Hi all! I'm starting a new campaign starting at level 10 and I want to build a steely sniper type.
I'm thinking variant human
Fighter 8 / rogue 2
Taking sharpshooter and crossbow expert weilding a heavy crossbow and carrying a handcrossbow and dagger in case things get up close and personal.
Going with battle master for precision, trip, and disarm.
We are allowed one uncommon enchanted item so I'm taking eye of the eagle for flavour and for scouting.
Probably taking expertise in stealth and perception.

I'd love to hear any of your thoughts and advice!

[djreynolds]

Hi all! I'm starting a new campaign starting at level 10 and I want to build a steely sniper type.
I'm thinking variant human
Fighter 8 / rogue 2
Taking sharpshooter and crossbow expert weilding a heavy crossbow and carrying a handcrossbow and dagger in case things get up close and personal.
Going with battle master for precision, trip, and disarm.
We are allowed one uncommon enchanted item so I'm taking eye of the eagle for flavour and for scouting.
Probably taking expertise in stealth and perception.

I'd love to hear any of your thoughts and advice!

I playing a human archer, similar to your build. Not having darkvision is hampering.

Otherwise, it looks great. You just have to find a source of darkvision... a wizard in the party, an uncommon magic item, goggles of night

[Xetheral]

Hi all! I'm starting a new campaign starting at level 10 and I want to build a steely sniper type.
I'm thinking variant human
Fighter 8 / rogue 2
Taking sharpshooter and crossbow expert weilding a heavy crossbow and carrying a handcrossbow and dagger in case things get up close and personal.
Going with battle master for precision, trip, and disarm.
We are allowed one uncommon enchanted item so I'm taking eye of the eagle for flavour and for scouting.
Probably taking expertise in stealth and perception.

I'd love to hear any of your thoughts and advice!

Your DM may or may not care that, according to Jeremy Crawford, Crossbow Expert doesn't work well with a handcrossbow and a dagger (or any other weapon) because holding the dagger prevents you from reloading the handcrossbow after the first shot. If your DM adheres to that ruling, you're better off using only a handcrossbow (with nothing in the other hand), because firing it triggers a bonus action attack with the same crossbow and you still have a free hand for reloading. Even if your DM doesn't adhere to that ruling, you'd do slightly more damage with only a single handcrossbow than you would with a handcrossbow and a dagger.

DMs treat Crossbow Expert very differently from each other, so it's definitely worth asking your DM how he wants to handle the feat.

[Arkhios]

Your DM may or may not care that, according to Jeremy Crawford, Crossbow Expert doesn't work well with a handcrossbow and a dagger (or any other weapon) because holding the dagger prevents you from reloading the handcrossbow after the first shot. If your DM adheres to that ruling, you're better off using only a handcrossbow (with nothing in the other hand), because firing it triggers a bonus action attack with the same crossbow and you still have a free hand for reloading. Even if your DM doesn't adhere to that ruling, you'd do slightly more damage with only a single handcrossbow than you would with a handcrossbow and a dagger.

DMs treat Crossbow Expert very differently from each other, so it's definitely worth asking your DM how he wants to handle the feat.

You could go full "Pirate" and have multiple hand crossbows loaded on your body. Pirates do this with multiple pistols, so I don't know why couldn't a non-gunpowder users do it with hand crossbows. :)
Only downside is that you'll have to invest on multiple hand crossbows. Otherwise this possibility isn't very taxing to the primary concept.

[Rogozhin]

Your DM may or may not care that, according to Jeremy Crawford, Crossbow Expert doesn't work well with a handcrossbow and a dagger (or any other weapon) because holding the dagger prevents you from reloading the handcrossbow after the first shot. If your DM adheres to that ruling, you're better off using only a handcrossbow (with nothing in the other hand), because firing it triggers a bonus action attack with the same crossbow and you still have a free hand for reloading. Even if your DM doesn't adhere to that ruling, you'd do slightly more damage with only a single handcrossbow than you would with a handcrossbow and a dagger.



Right! I had seen this.... a single hand crossbow in melee combat is still pretty nasty and seems pretty fun. Also i could get three attacks per turn with it! I could also try to grapple people with my mediocre strength!

Thanks!

[djreynolds]

Sneaking around with a torch isn't fun, grab the goggles of darkness.

I prefer bow over a crossbow... as it saves a feat

But the darkvision spell lasts 8 hours, someone can cast it on you.

Its a good build.

[Socratov]

if you want to snipe, I'd say go Ranger 2 (for Hunter's Mark)/Thief 18 for the sneak attack and cunning action item interaction. Take Skulker, Sharshooter and mobile for feats and finish dex.

So you can now hide, shoot at -5/+10 every turn (since you can use your bonus action to interact with items to reload your heavy crossbow) until you hit, then you relocate and hide again (then you rinse and repeat). Just carry a backup dagger (so you can attack and autodisengage through mobile when you hit)

ranger 2/thief 18, mobile, skulkersharpshooter

Step 1: get hidden
Step 2: shoot heavy crossbow at -5/+10 and SA, reload using bonus action
Step 3: repeat step 2 until hit
Step 4: relocate and rehide
Step 5: go back to step 2 unil kills achieved

If in melee, hit with dagger (triggering mobile), move and rehide

I'd dub this playstile Whack-a-mole-ing

[Coffee_Dragon]

Rehiding can also be subject to DM interpretation, e.g. special lighting conditions or a particular type of cover like foliage might be required to establish one-way LOS.

[Socratov]

Rehiding can also be subject to DM interpretation, e.g. special lighting conditions or a particular type of cover like foliage might be required to establish one-way LOS.

Well, there is always the option of being a Lightfoot Halfling, who can hide behind and on Medium Creatures. There problem solved.

[Contrast]

Sharpshooter

Its worth noting that while Sharpshooter is very good for most ranged combatants there is a question to be asked on a primary rogue if the -5/+10 is a good idea. You're getting +10 damage for -5 to hit...but that -5 to hit also risks all your sneak attack damage going up in smoke. I haven't done the math to know where the cut off point is but having a single high damage attack is a different proposition than having multiple low damage attacks on deciding the relative worth of -5/+10.

The feat is obviously still worth taking but just a reminder that the -5/+10 aspect may be a bit more situational on that particular build than it normally is on say, a ranged fighter.

It also depends exactly how OP sees their 'sniper' as while the high damage could represent carefully placed shots, it is also going to involve them missing more.

[Foxydono]

If UA is allowed you could take deep stalker 3 for darkvision and an extra attack (and advantage on inniative), then 2/3 rogue for cunning action, expertise and maybe asassinate. After that 11 levels of fighter for your extra attacks and surge.

I'd agree taking a longbow instead of heavy or hamdcrossbow. The damage difference is minimal compared to the usefullness of a feat or +2 Dex. With sharpshooter and the extra attacks you'll do plenty of damage. Take maybe alert for +5 on inniative instead or Lucky.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Well, there is always the option of being a Lightfoot Halfling, who can hide behind and on Medium Creatures. There problem solved.

That may convince a few more DMs but doesn't fundamentally bag the bonus. It is assumed that hiding is often possible, whether it's behind a pillar or a person. Once you're hidden, how do you establish one-way line of sight to attack unseen? "I shoot from under the wizard's left armpit" may or may not work, just like "I quickly pop up from behind the parapet" may or may not work. Is the source(s) of cover engaged in activity of their own? The DM might give you disadvantage on attacking past them, cancelling out the wanted advantage, or at worst say it's just not possible to remain constantly unseen behind them. Do they stand stock still with left arm slightly raised in order to let you shoot under their armpit? Well, you have your own living portable sniper screen, but that's also a lot to assume. Bottom line being, whatever it is grants you unseen-ness and lets you hide, the DM will decide whether you can consistently shoot from there without being visible and therefore not hidden.

[Socratov]

Its worth noting that while Sharpshooter is very good for most ranged combatants there is a question to be asked on a primary rogue if the -5/+10 is a good idea. You're getting +10 damage for -5 to hit...but that -5 to hit also risks all your sneak attack damage going up in smoke. I haven't done the math to know where the cut off point is but having a single high damage attack is a different proposition than having multiple low damage attacks on deciding the relative worth of -5/+10.

The feat is obviously still worth taking but just a reminder that the -5/+10 aspect may be a bit more situational on that particular build than it normally is on say, a ranged fighter.

It also depends exactly how OP sees their 'sniper' as while the high damage could represent carefully placed shots, it is also going to involve them missing more.
It is a feat you would take later. with 2 ASI's for dex, mobile, skulker taken, it woudl be used for your 5th ASI. It's what will round outthe build at lvl 18 (when you get rogue 16)
, and essnetially makes for your last damage increase (since dex will igve you more hide, AC (beuase yo will need it sooner or later, dex saves, accuracy AND damage, it's more useful then sharshooter, and mobile and skulker wil benefit more for your playstyle). Besides, you are using advantage (due to shooting from hiding and thus getting advantage, thus getting sneak attack) so using the -5/+10 is not so bad after all... By the numbers going round in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472938-Great-Weapon-Mastery-How-to-5-10-Like-a-Pro)

We can just fill in the formula withthe following numbers:

at high level, max dex, max proficiency, +2 from fighting style makes for +13 to-hit before magic gear, but we get advantage

Your damage before Sharpshooter is:
(assuming lightfoot halfling we forgo the heavy crossbow and instead take the Light crossbow)

1d8(weapon)+9d6 (sneak)+1d6(Hunter's Mark)+5(dex) (on average 4.5+35+5=44.5)

so the max AC we we should hit with Sharpshooter (counting advantage) follows out of the Wolfram Alpha function as given in the FAQ of the thread I linked (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=x+%3C+0.5*(2*y+%2B+sqrt(z%5E2%2B10*z%2B1600)+-+z+-+8)+where+y+%3D+13+and+z+%3D+44,5): 18,47. so AC 18 or lower gives the go-ahead to use the Sharpshooter feat.

And using Lightfoot Halfling you can do this as long as you have medium creatures (or similar things) to hide behind.

Oh and this is precluding the use of magic weapons, poison, drugs (which are like poisons, but immensely more fun), diseases, you name it.

Happy Sniping!

[Contrast]

...Unless I'm missing something the formula in the thread you presented implies that AC should be 6 or less (which given you hit AC9 on a 2 even using the -5 implies the formula is a little iffy?) before you take the -5/+10 in the situation you presented (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=13-(44.5%2F2)%2B16).

Edit - excluding advantage which would bump it up yes. As I said, you will still use it just worth being aware its much more situational than normal due to the +10 adding less damage comparatively than it normally does which changes the relative risk/reward ratio. Magic weapon would increase hit chance and favourability of using it, poisions would add damage and increase the cost of missing while further mitigating the comparative gain from the +10 damage reducing the favourability of using it.

Either way the feat is worth taking on a ranged character due to the other benefits :smallwink:

[Arkhios]

I've always found that formula a bit wonky.

In all seriousness, HOW does damage have ANYTHING to do with with hitting a target? How they have come up with this formula eludes me.

[Contrast]

Extreme example to prove the point. Lets put it this way - if you did 10,000 damage on a hit, would a feat which gave you -5 to hit and +10 damage still be an attractive proposition?

No because now the opportunity cost of missing 10,000 damage is not worth the bonus of +10 damage.

The more damage you do on a hit, the less worthwhile increasing your risk to miss is.

[Socratov]

...Unless I'm missing something the formula in the thread you presented implies that AC should be 6 or less (which given you hit AC9 on a 2 even using the -5 implies the formula is a little iffy?) before you take the -5/+10 in the situation you presented (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=13-(44.5%2F2)%2B16).

Edit - excluding advantage which would bump it up yes. As I said, you will still use it just worth being aware its much more situational than normal due to the +10 adding less damage comparatively than it normally does which changes the relative risk/reward ratio.

Indeed, the thing is, if you don't have advantage, you don't get sneak atttack in the first place, rendering the calculation back to 13-((4.5+3.5+5)/2)+16=22.5

So, if you can't hide form an ancient red dragon for advantage, better go open and shoto for sharp at him. Openly and full of judgement. So you donly don't use sharpshooter if you can get sneak attack, but without the advantage.

[Contrast]

Even with a notional +5 for advantage that only bumps it to AC11 (though as I said, there does seem some reason to doubt how well that formula works in some cases).

Edit - sorry just realised I was being an idiot, I hadn't noticed he'd given one formula for normal use and one for advantage, this makes more sense now. I'm not clear how advantage is worth a swing from AC6 to AC18 however... :smallconfused:

[ClintACK]

Why Variant Human? At F8/R2, you've already got three ASI's without the Human bonus feat... plenty to take Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert, and a Dex boost.


Well, there is always the option of being a Lightfoot Halfling, who can hide behind and on Medium Creatures. There problem solved.

Better a Wood Elf, for hiding when only "lightly obscured". And Darkvision. And the extra movement. Much harder to hit-and-run snipe with 25' movement.


And I'd second what was said above: Check with your DM on the details of how he'll be handling re-hiding and how he'll be handling Crossbow Expert. The fiddly bits make a big difference.

[Socratov]

Even with a notional +5 for advantage that only bumps it to AC11.

Only seldom does advantage count for a flat +5 (which is discussed at a different thread some time ago).

For single die rolls it's easy enough to use the formula of to-hit -(dmg/2)+16, however, when using adantage thta goes out of the window. to disregard hard math, the devs gave out an assumption of +5 for advantage and -5 for disadvantage. The Wolfram Alpha is there plain to see and gives an AC18,47 for a break even point.

let's put it this way, seeing a general to-hit of 13, even if you take the penalty, you still have a to-hit of +8. assuming an average 10,5 roll on a d20 you will hit 18 AC 50% of the time. Advantage in a die to reach an average number on a die is a lot easier then advantage reach a great result on a die. On average the improvement will be a +5, but in reality the numbers are different regarding the target (as discussed in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?366715-The-Math-of-Advantage-Disadvantage))

So if we take our example: we need a 10 to hit AC 18, without advantage is that is about 50% (give or take some).

See the following link (http://anydice.com/). See how the top graph shows thge chance that the value showing is the highest die? Now if you want to know what chance you ahve at succeding at a certain toll, you can add up all the numbers of X (your target of rolling) and the numbers above that (since you don't mind exceeding your target). In the case of advantage that is considerably better then just a normal die. this, however, also has an effect of diminishing returns: the lower you go the less probability you will add per instance of lowering.

This is why the thread I linked in my previous post pretty much says that if you have advantage, you can pretty much -5/+10 to your heart's content and at disadvanatage you can should do anything but -5/+10. the +/- 5 is a nice help, but it does not exactly give a full overview of the situation when dealing with this situation, expecially since the numbers get screwed up a bit considering you are not only dealing with a wonky calculation for the result of a roll (meaning best of 2 on a d20), but also wether or not the added damage is worth the risk of not hitting.

then all fo this is calculated in terms of average DPR, wchih cshoudl be consistent over 10's of turns, which inb the real game might look skewed as you don't get to 100 turns in one combat and will see sometimes average effects, sometimes a bad streak (your dice being cold according to the gamler's fallacy) and sometimes a great strek (your dice being fallaciously hot). Since we are dealing with rather extreme damages here (sneak attack dice in particular), the math reagarding it will swing more as well.

Though if you find a problem with the math as presented in the formula as used in Wolfram Alpha, please let me know.

[tieren]

Indeed, the thing is, if you don't have advantage, you don't get sneak atttack in the first place.

I played an archer w/ some rogue levels and the primary means of sneak attack was having an ally within 5 feet of the target, not advantage. Either the party tank was up there, or I conjured animals and sent them to be up there, or you could use a familiar or beast companion to accomplish the same job.

I got sneak attack damage nearly every round, but rarely had advantage.

I found sharpshooter critical not for the damage swap but for disregarding partial cover (which was sometimes provided by the allies in melee).

In the OP's case I would recommend taking some ranger levels for hunter features like colossus slayer or horde breaker, and for your BM maneuvers take precision shot, it counters the -5 to hit well. Get rid of trip and disarm maneuvers, making the enemy go prone makes them harder to hit and disarming them just makes them use a free object interaction to pick up their weapon.

[Contrast]

Having done the math myself now, with advantage 18 does seem right (43.5DPR with -5/+10, 42.7DPR without). Without advantage I believe the break even point is AC12 or below (43.6DPR with -5/+10, 42.3DPR without).

I stand by my statement though - for a fighter shooting a crossbow, the +10 represents a likely ~100% increase in damage output per shot. For a rogue it represents a ~20% increased damage output. That can be a pretty relevant consideration in choosing if you want to go from a 96% hit chance to an 80% hit chance (per AC18 w/adv). You're much more likely to be within OHKO territory/hitting a caster to disable a concentration spell/all of the other issues which might make a slight increase in DPR the less optimal choice when compared to just hitting more consistently.

I think we all agree the feat is worth taking (indeed I'd be tempted to argue its worth taking earlier than you suggested on the basis of ignoring cover and still being able to attack effectively at long range) - I was just trying to highlight that this is probably the main specific case where you should be particularly careful to make sure its sensible to use the -5/+10 ability rather than just using it all day every day.

[Socratov]

Having done the math myself now, with advantage 18 does seem right (43.5DPR with -5/+10, 42.7DPR without). Without advantage I believe the break even point is AC12 or below (43.6DPR with -5/+10, 42.3DPR without).

I stand by my statement though - for a fighter shooting a crossbow, the +10 represents a likely ~100% increase in damage output per shot. For a rogue it represents a ~20% increased damage output. That can be a pretty relevant consideration in choosing if you want to go from a 96% hit chance to an 80% hit chance (per AC18 w/adv). You're much more likely to be within OHKO territory/hitting a caster to disable a concentration spell/all of the other issues which might make a slight increase in DPR the less optimal choice when compared to just hitting more consistently.

I think we all agree the feat is worth taking (indeed I'd be tempted to argue its worth taking earlier than you suggested on the basis of ignoring cover and still being able to attack effectively at long range) - I was just trying to highlight that this is probably the main specific case where you should be particularly careful to make sure its sensible to use the -5/+10 ability rather than just using it all day every day.

Oh, certainly. I think that ignoring cover is quite nigfty, but considering that if you have skulker and mobile, you are especially suited to relocation and lining up another shot, that you don't nee sharpshooter as much. (unless you encounter a lot of 3/4 cover on you adventures, that isthe DM tellin gyou that you need Sharshooter asap, just be caseful with your -5/+10), Other then that relocation and hiding behind your allies should be enough.

@Tieren, while I do consider your build valid in itself, I don't consider it a sniper. The build I proposed creates the circumstances for hiding in itself (unless you go solo), and enables its own tools (advantage from hiding for sneakattack, mobile for easy relocation and defensive manuevers, skulker for easier hiding and not betraying your position on a miss). In an urban environment you are like Ezio Auditore da Firenze, running almost invisible along the rooftops (thanks to 2nd story work, supreme sneak and Reliable Talent) shooting left and right due to Cunning hands. In the wild you use trees and when in an open field, you can even use bigger partymembers as cover enough to hide. As far as builds go, this one is extremely self-sufficient and its playstyle is very much as a sniper: hide-shoot-relocate-repeat, instead of generating other instances of sneak attack through animal companions. Besides, hordebreaker is fun, if you can reload your crossbow often enough (remember, loading takes an action, or with theif bonus action). You rbuild would do better with a long- or shortbow to dismiss the loading (or add another feat tax for Crossbow Master, though that also only goes so far).

[tieren]

@Tieren, while I do consider your build valid in itself, I don't consider it a sniper. The build I proposed creates the circumstances for hiding in itself (unless you go solo), and enables its own tools (advantage from hiding for sneakattack, mobile for easy relocation and defensive manuevers, skulker for easier hiding and not betraying your position on a miss). In an urban environment you are like Ezio Auditore da Firenze, running almost invisible along the rooftops (thanks to 2nd story work, supreme sneak and Reliable Talent) shooting left and right due to Cunning hands. In the wild you use trees and when in an open field, you can even use bigger partymembers as cover enough to hide. As far as builds go, this one is extremely self-sufficient and its playstyle is very much as a sniper: hide-shoot-relocate-repeat, instead of generating other instances of sneak attack through animal companions. Besides, hordebreaker is fun, if you can reload your crossbow often enough (remember, loading takes an action, or with theif bonus action). You rbuild would do better with a long- or shortbow to dismiss the loading (or add another feat tax for Crossbow Master, though that also only goes so far).

I was just trying to give some tips, not a fully developed build. I find 7 rogue levels almost always better than staying single class ranger, and still picks up some high level ranger stuff (evasion, uncanny dodge, etc...) along with expertise and sneak attack. From where the OP is (fighter8/rogue 2) I might recommend going to (fighter 8/rogue 8/ranger 4).

For me the sniper is landing that one solid hit for max damage (as opposed to a haste EK build that tries to fire as many arrows as possible). You want decent sneak attack dice, colossus slayer, precision shot maneuver, and sharpshooter to pull that off at a minimum. Going with the revised ranger for the advantage on initiative and the assassin subclass for assassinate may help too. There are plenty of ASIs in there to pick up any feats you want (like mobile) too, although I would probably take ritual caster to get find familiar for an owl with flyby for near permanent sneak attack.

[Specter]

Optimal snipers want 5 levels of Ranger along the way to grab Pass Without Trace: +10 to Stealth and leaving no trace behind are where the money's at.

[Zene]

Optimal snipers want 5 levels of Ranger along the way to grab Pass Without Trace: +10 to Stealth and leaving no trace behind are where the money's at.

Agreed. If you really want to be like a classic sniper, you need:
1) Insane range (sharpshooter with longbow or similar)
2) Foolproof hiding, bonus if it can't be tracked (i.e. PWT, although you can get close with other options, like 2 levels in druid for wild form)
3) As much sneak attack damage as you can get, for those 1-hit kills
4) (Nice to have, but not necessary) A 2nd attack (either at-will or times per day) so you can still get your sneak attack damage if the first one whiffs. Note: If you don't have this, then having a way (or ways) to increase hit likelihood is really nice (i.e. bless/battlemaster's precision maneuver/lucky feat/owl familiar/etc).

So there are multiple ways to do this.
#1 above is easy to get, you just need to start with a class that gets good ranged weapons, and spend a feat.
#2 above, if you want to get PWT, you can go Ranger 5 (also gets Archery fighting style, extra attack, and a few other treats); Lore Bard 6 (gets lots of other treats, including the ability to steal another ranger spell like lightning arrow); Grasslands Druid 3 (also gets wild form 2/day, so you can be a sneaky little spider or similar); Trickery Cleric 3 (also gets bless and guidance, but probably not worth the levels in this build); or Shadow Monk 3 (definitely not worth the levels in this build).
#3 means maximize rogue levels, and probably going assassin sub-class (although if you don't think you'll be doing a lot of surprise combat rounds, you might consider the utility of a different sub-class)
#4 you can get via ranger 5, valor bard 5, fighter 5, or war cleric 1; or via the crossbow expert feat if you're willing to give up a ton of range that can come from longbow.

All that said...there's no clear winning build. Rogue Assassin 17 / Grasslands Druid 3 is nice; as is Rogue 15 / Ranger 5. Rogue 15 / Battlemaster Fighter 5 can work. So can Rogue 17 / Battlemaster Fighter 3. Or Rogue 14 / Battlemaster 3 / Grasslands 3. Each has lots of advantages, but each has lots of drawbacks too unfortunately.

Alternately, if you want to forgo the traditional 1-shot-kill sniper, and go for a rapid-fire approach, then Fighter is the way to go. A dex-based Fighter 20 gets 4 attacks, and then can get a 5th attack from a hand crossbow with the feat, and if you go Eldritch Knight via the Haste spell you can get a 6th; and still be quite stealthy. If you're willing to give up one of those attacks per round, your options open up hugely, as then you only need Fighter 11. You can then put the rest into any combo of Rogue/Druid/Bard/Cleric that you like, optimizing for sneakiness/spellcasting/utility/DPR/action economy/etc as you see fit.

My personal favorite sneaky sniper build is Rogue 17 / Grasslands Druid 3. However, while I love archers and the idea of sniping, I find the stealth/hiding/sneak attack mechanics really annoying to play. So my favorite archer overall is avoiding the sniper archetype, and instead going Warlock 3/Battlemaster Fighter 11/Lore Bard 6. This allows 4 attacks/round with a hand crossbow, the darkness/devil's sight combo for advantage (and thus ability to use sharpshooter bonus damage almost constantly). It also has a lot of utility, a bit of AOE by using magical secrets to get Lightning Arrow, good uses for reactions, and a lot of abilities coming back online every short rest.