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PeteNutButter
2016-10-24, 04:17 PM
So after muddling around with different builds the last month or so, I think I've finally come up with a character I want for my next AL toon.

I want to play a swashbuckler with some magic. The some is the part I can't decide.

The PC is a noble, and a member of the Lord's Alliance. He wears nothing but his noble attire (fine clothes, no armor), and a carries just a rapier at his waist. All other equipment he can't fit in his pockets is carried by his retainers (although he will occasionally have to begrudging carry things where he retainers refuse to go. The only exception is his potential arcane focus, which will either be a rod or crystal, that serves as a stylish cane.

He will be a "better-than-you" type noble that talks down to others (NPCs, he respects the other PCs for various reasons, mostly because I don't want to RP a douche to my teammates). He will be introduced as a noble by his retainer/majordomo. Due to his unassuming attire he will attempt to maintain the ruse whenever possible that he is not part of the party, but rather that the party is working for him while he is just along to observe their progress.

He will be Lawful Neutral as much as possible. He may on rare occasion bend the rules a bit, but only because he believes he is above them. If ever he is insulted, he will naturally draw his rapier and demand a duel at once. He will often boast about how many men he has bested in duels.

As for his source of magic he can just be dappling in arcane, have some draconic lineage or be making a deal with a likely nefarious entity. Any would fit the character.
The Mechanics
Stats: Dex > cha > con. Something like 8, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16
Race: Probably Variant Human, or possibly Half Elf.

Classes: The core of the theme is swashbuckler so that means at least 3 levels in rogue at some point. I am totally ok with him not having the typical rogue role. He needn't be looking for traps or skulking about. I may still take stealth prof/expertise just for optimization.

Since he doesn't want to be wearing actual armor he needs to pick up mage armor (or the like) from some source. Depending on the source, it greatly impacts character progression. Booming Blade is of course mandatory for this build.


Magic Initiate Feat:
This is the least magic option here. It basically means human variant, for magic initiate at level 1, giving 8/24 hrs with mage armor up, access to booming blade and another cantrip of choice. Magic Initiate for mage armor seems a little weak, but it does come with a solid full sneak attack progression for hard hits. Has earliest access to panache.
Cons: Lackluster combat decisions (attack is pretty much all you do every round). Harder to get sneak attacks on separate turns. Time limit on AC.

Warlock Dip:
A two level dip in warlock provides mage armor at will and probably Devil's Sight making human an even better option. I'd probably avoid agonizing blast thematically, despite its power, focusing instead on attacks that can achieve sneak attack. Could consider further warlock progression for pact abilities, but at the price of sneak attack dice.
Cons: Requires at least 2 levels to achieve invocations, delaying sneak attack and class features.

Sorcerer Dip:
Picks up scales to imitate mage armor on the first level, as well as spells like shield. Tempting to take it to level 3 for metamagic (quickened BB, ready BB; Subtle spells!) or even level 5 for haste (haste attack, ready BB). Lots of ways to get more than 1 turn of sneak attack dice.
Cons: Feels weaker than warlock dip if left before metamagic. If metamagic is desired, can be a big investment and greatly delay rogue progression. Going for reaction attacks, greatly reduces the chance that BB rider effect will trigger, making GFB a more attractive choice, possibly pushing sorcerer to 6 levels for +cha to damage.


I'd also consider taking some levels in paladin or fighter, but any other class is out of the question. I'll be level 4 or 5 going into this next week. Since it's AL that means adventures are typically 2-5 combats, some allowing short rest between (probably more than half the time), but only occasionally having time for long rest (probably at most once an adventure). Also as AL, no UA material is allowed just phb and SCAG (not EE since I'll be using BB).

The party make up seems to be, a moon druid, a S&B paladin, a ranger, a fighter/wizard, and a tempest cleric. These are subject to change though as the party can still change their characters pre-level 5 per AL rules. I suspect no more than one or two actually will change their character.

So far I'm considering Rogue 5, Rogue 3/Lock 2, Rogue 4/Sorc 1, and Rogue 1/Sorc 4. The problem is every rogue level adds 1.75 DPR, +1d6 every other level is a lot to miss. Any input from the community is greatly appreciated.

RulesJD
2016-10-24, 05:01 PM
There's several builds that have been posted already. The only I posted is the following:

1. VHuman start, pick Sentinel (off turn attacks = second chance at Sneak Attack in a round)

2. Start Rogue for skillz.

3. Take 1 level of Draconic Sorc for Booming Blade + Perma mage armor

4. Then take 2 more levels of Rogue for Swashbuckler (Rogue 3/Sorc 1)

5. Then decide if you want to be more Rogue, or more mixed.

5a. If Mixed, then take 3 levels of Fighter for Battlemaster. Gets you the ability to carry a shield (+2 AC) and Defense fighting style (+1 more AC), Action Surge for off-turn Sneak Attack (or if you miss on Booming Blade), and Maneuver Dice (Riposte for off turn Sneak, Precision, and Menacing/Push attack to trigger BB secondary damage)

5a. If Rogue, then take more levels of Rogue to up Sneak Attack + Rogue abilities like Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Expertise, etc.

Theodoxus
2016-10-24, 05:10 PM
Draconic Sorc 3/Rog 2 is what I'd do, in this particular case. Yes, you're not getting your Swash on yet - but you're far more of a Noble than a down and dirty sneak fighter anyway.

I'd drop Sorc and go pure Rog from this point though. Since you're waiting a level to 'activate all your desires' this means you get to play the role of sorcerer with all the fun bennies of Cunning Actions. Your base AC is better than any rogue without magical armor will have. You can dash around and get better spots with which to Firebolt, or even practice being a swash by running in 20', smacking a dude with BB (or GFB) and bonus action disengage to get out of harms way 10'.

If you need an extra feat at some point, grab sorc 4... Lots of shenanigans if you go 7/7 with PBAoE Fireballs you can Evade for no damage ;)

Since your'e a noble, go Gold Dragon for prestige... this sounds like a fun character :)

@JD, I know it's a bit DM ruling... but I wouldn't let Defense stack with draconic armor - it's not actually armor... (only quibble though, otherwise a solid suggestion)

Funny story - a monk in my party this weekend stopped an ancient white dragon from lifting off to get a better position to breath by using Sentinel. I found it kind of silly that a human punch could stop a multi-ton magical creature from jumping off the ground... but thems the rules...

MeeposFire
2016-10-24, 09:49 PM
Draconic Sorc 3/Rog 2 is what I'd do, in this particular case. Yes, you're not getting your Swash on yet - but you're far more of a Noble than a down and dirty sneak fighter anyway.

I'd drop Sorc and go pure Rog from this point though. Since you're waiting a level to 'activate all your desires' this means you get to play the role of sorcerer with all the fun bennies of Cunning Actions. Your base AC is better than any rogue without magical armor will have. You can dash around and get better spots with which to Firebolt, or even practice being a swash by running in 20', smacking a dude with BB (or GFB) and bonus action disengage to get out of harms way 10'.

If you need an extra feat at some point, grab sorc 4... Lots of shenanigans if you go 7/7 with PBAoE Fireballs you can Evade for no damage ;)

Since your'e a noble, go Gold Dragon for prestige... this sounds like a fun character :)

@JD, I know it's a bit DM ruling... but I wouldn't let Defense stack with draconic armor - it's not actually armor... (only quibble though, otherwise a solid suggestion)

Funny story - a monk in my party this weekend stopped an ancient white dragon from lifting off to get a better position to breath by using Sentinel. I found it kind of silly that a human punch could stop a multi-ton magical creature from jumping off the ground... but thems the rules...

I would just wear studded leather at that point. Same AC but chances are fairly good that at some point you will find some +1 or better armor in which case you come out ahead.

PeteNutButter
2016-10-24, 09:53 PM
Draconic Sorc 3/Rog 2 is what I'd do, in this particular case. Yes, you're not getting your Swash on yet - but you're far more of a Noble than a down and dirty sneak fighter anyway.

I'd drop Sorc and go pure Rog from this point though. Since you're waiting a level to 'activate all your desires' this means you get to play the role of sorcerer with all the fun bennies of Cunning Actions. Your base AC is better than any rogue without magical armor will have. You can dash around and get better spots with which to Firebolt, or even practice being a swash by running in 20', smacking a dude with BB (or GFB) and bonus action disengage to get out of harms way 10'.

If you need an extra feat at some point, grab sorc 4... Lots of shenanigans if you go 7/7 with PBAoE Fireballs you can Evade for no damage ;)

Since your'e a noble, go Gold Dragon for prestige... this sounds like a fun character :)

@JD, I know it's a bit DM ruling... but I wouldn't let Defense stack with draconic armor - it's not actually armor... (only quibble though, otherwise a solid suggestion)

Funny story - a monk in my party this weekend stopped an ancient white dragon from lifting off to get a better position to breath by using Sentinel. I found it kind of silly that a human punch could stop a multi-ton magical creature from jumping off the ground... but thems the rules...

I like the idea. My only problem is Sentinel + BB... If you are staying to hope to trigger sentinel, you probably won't be triggering BB. I get that the up front damage is still good, but it feels like it's failing to utilize the point of swashbuckler.

And it might more of a discussion on sentinel in general, but how reliably can you trigger it on a rogue? I've used it before on fighter types, but what's to stop a foe from just attacking you directly as a rogue? You look like an easier target, and can potentially deal more damage, especially over a S&B melee. I feel like even a dumb foe wouldn't let it trigger more than once, and against anything with half a brain, it'll never trigger.

On the other hand when it does trigger... that's some good damage.

Specter
2016-10-24, 10:04 PM
I would take only a single Sorc level. It seems that all you want is BB/GFB and Mage Armor, and that delivers without the 1/day restriction of MagicInitiate. More Swash levels mean more sneak damage and rogue goodies like Uncanny Dodge and Evasion sooner.

bid
2016-10-24, 11:07 PM
If you get extra attack, you'll have a better DPR than pure rogue (as I remember).

Monk has the same AC with Wis16, but you could 8 16 14 10 14 14 as a half-elf.

Bladelock allows you to reshape your weapon and uses Cha.

Sorcerer has limited twin BB, which is fun on swashbuckler.

PeteNutButter
2016-10-25, 08:32 AM
I would take only a single Sorc level. It seems that all you want is BB/GFB and Mage Armor, and that delivers without the 1/day restriction of MagicInitiate. More Swash levels mean more sneak damage and rogue goodies like Uncanny Dodge and Evasion sooner.

Yeah, that's my fault if I made it seem that way. My biggest concern is if I'll enjoy playing the character long term, and typically that means options, so I am leaning towards picking up at least 3 levels in caster class. Combat is so dull when all you do is roll 1 or 2 d20s.


If you get extra attack, you'll have a better DPR than pure rogue (as I remember).

Monk has the same AC with Wis16, but you could 8 16 14 10 14 14 as a half-elf.

Bladelock allows you to reshape your weapon and uses Cha.

Sorcerer has limited twin BB, which is fun on swashbuckler.

To get extra attack you sacrifice 5 rogue levels which is 3d6 sneak attack, 10.5 damage. Your extra attack will be 9.5 with a 20 dex. It pulls ahead if you have a magic weapon, SS, or consider missing on the first swing. It falls back behind when you consider BB extra damage. Either way it's toss up depending on situation.

Thanks for the input guys, I think I'm leaning towards something that will let me end up as rogue 5/sorc 5.

Would it be better to start sorc for con saves, and possibly warcaster feat? You lose a skill, but aren't forced to take resilient. Alternatively if I start rogue, I can go with 3 16s to start using resilient con. If I end up hasting myself, I can't fail that save...

The big appeal on warcaster is post-haste, I'll probably want to pick up TWF. Booming Blade, haste attack > offhand attack.

RulesJD
2016-10-25, 10:01 AM
I like the idea. My only problem is Sentinel + BB... If you are staying to hope to trigger sentinel, you probably won't be triggering BB. I get that the up front damage is still good, but it feels like it's failing to utilize the point of swashbuckler.

And it might more of a discussion on sentinel in general, but how reliably can you trigger it on a rogue? I've used it before on fighter types, but what's to stop a foe from just attacking you directly as a rogue? You look like an easier target, and can potentially deal more damage, especially over a S&B melee. I feel like even a dumb foe wouldn't let it trigger more than once, and against anything with half a brain, it'll never trigger.

On the other hand when it does trigger... that's some good damage.

You don't care about the disengage part of Sentinel, you care about the attacking a target other than you part. So BB target as they approach the party, retreat on your turn to next to one of your allies. Enemy triggers BB when it moves into melee combat, and (if they attack your ally rather than you and are adjacent to you) they trigger Sentinel for an off-turn attack.

If they attack you instead and miss (you should have decently high AC between carrying a shield, Draconic Resilience, and Defensive Fighting Style) you can use Riposte to trigger an off-turn attack.

If the enemy is stuck in melee, BB + Pushing Attack = they have to move back into combat, thus triggering secondary BB.

PeteNutButter
2016-10-25, 10:36 AM
You don't care about the disengage part of Sentinel, you care about the attacking a target other than you part. So BB target as they approach the party, retreat on your turn to next to one of your allies. Enemy triggers BB when it moves into melee combat, and (if they attack your ally rather than you and are adjacent to you) they trigger Sentinel for an off-turn attack.

If they attack you instead and miss (you should have decently high AC between carrying a shield, Draconic Resilience, and Defensive Fighting Style) you can use Riposte to trigger an off-turn attack.

If the enemy is stuck in melee, BB + Pushing Attack = they have to move back into combat, thus triggering secondary BB.

I know it works well with battle master, but without the moves it just doesn't.

I wasn't aiming to make a rogue/BM.

What will typically happen is enemy engages party tank. I booming blade enemy. He doesn't trigger rider(no reason to move), and doesn't trigger sentinel, because he just attacks me.

RulesJD
2016-10-25, 10:48 AM
I know it works well with battle master, but without the moves it just doesn't.

I wasn't aiming to make a rogue/BM.

What will typically happen is enemy engages party tank. I booming blade enemy. He doesn't trigger rider(no reason to move), and doesn't trigger sentinel, because he just attacks me.

Well yes, having BM Maneuvers is better than not and you specifically mentioned possibly taking levels in Fighter. Here, let me show you:

"I'd also consider taking some levels in paladin or fighter, but any other class is out of the question."

So that's what I did.

And more power to the enemy if they attack you instead of the party tank, who is then free to Reckless Attack or whatever to their heart's content.

bid
2016-10-25, 05:12 PM
To get extra attack you sacrifice 5 rogue levels which is 3d6 sneak attack, 10.5 damage. Your extra attack will be 9.5 with a 20 dex. It pulls ahead if you have a magic weapon, SS, or consider missing on the first swing. It falls back behind when you consider BB extra damage. Either way it's toss up depending on situation.
TWF with extra attack is better than BB at most levels. That second chance at SA makes a big difference.

And single weapon is massively in favor of extra attack: a rogue 5 does 40% more damage than a pure rogue 10. {(1d8+5)*2(@65%) + 3d6(@88%) vs 1d8+5+5d6(@65%)}


It's all about the MC feature you gain for delaying the rogue's features. Whichever bring more fun.

Herobizkit
2016-10-26, 04:52 AM
Fighter 3 (for Eldritch Knight)/Rogue 2.

Optionally, Wizard 2 (for Bladesinger)/Rogue 3.

Take spells that don't require saving throws.

PeteNutButter
2016-10-26, 08:46 AM
TWF with extra attack is better than BB at most levels. That second chance at SA makes a big difference.

And single weapon is massively in favor of extra attack: a rogue 5 does 40% more damage than a pure rogue 10. {(1d8+5)*2(@65%) + 3d6(@88%) vs 1d8+5+5d6(@65%)}


It's all about the MC feature you gain for delaying the rogue's features. Whichever bring more fun.

It's a good breakdown but you aren't adding in BB damage for the single attack. Without the rider at level 10 the extra attack pulls ahead a little. With the rider it loses. Also at level 11 it starts to lose without the rider as well. As AC numbers go up and down it tilts around as well, but 65% is a solid baseline.

I know it's limited rounds per day, but what about haste TWF and booming blade? Using the haste and offhand attack and then readying a booming blade to get sneak attack twice a round. (1d8+5*2)*.65 + (3d6*.88) then the readied BB (2d8+5+3d6)*.65. Goes up on with booming blade increases.