On the Subject of Slings

[ruy343]

I was thinking about a post I recently made about barbarians being able to attack with a sling in a pinch, and I realized that my previous assumption (that slings used one's strength modifier for damage and to-hit) was incorrect. Would you guys feel it broken to allow a player to use a sling with their strength modifier?

On a similar note, what do people think of this guy's houserules to the sling (http://ludusludorum.com/2016/05/12/a-defense-of-the-humble-sling/)? It probably goes too far for my table in terms of houserules (I'd probably leave the long-sling behind), but it's a compelling argument.

Also, something I hadn't thought of until that article: a slinger can use a sling and a shield at the same time (no loading property!)

[JumboWheat01]

Slings have more in common with throwing weapons in my book than other ranged weapons, like bows or crossbows, so I'd see nothing wrong with using Strength with a sling. Remember though, that a Barbarian doesn't add any rage damage with ranged weaponry, they need to beat things up close for that.

Also, I could have sworn Slings had the loading property, but I'm away from my book right now, but I can't really check.

[Knaight]

It sounds reasonable to me. Some of the arguments in that page are off, starting with how the Xenophon comparison involves bows well below a late medieval standard and with how it tries to have it both ways with slings being available for everyone and noticeably dangerous mostly in the hands of cultures that specialized in them. Still, slings are effective weapons and that they are marginally better than throwing a rock is off.

[Kane0]

Indeed. increasing damage to a d6 to compete with the shortbow (same damage, benefit of being one handed at cost of more limited range) wouldn't be gamebreaking.

[Sigreid]

I agree that the damage is a bit off. One show I saw that analysed it came to the conclusion that it can do as much damage as a .45. I don't think it's a strength based weapon though. Based on their expert, it looked like it took skill and hand eye coordination to pull it off.

As far as using a shield, depending on how your shield is strapped it shouldn't be hard to hold a few stones in your shield hand.

[Zalabim]

According to the ruling on Hand Crossbows, one-handed ammunition weapons still need two hands to use. So the fact that the sling is one-handed is mostly immaterial. You can use a Javelin with a shield, but not a sling. Yes, it does bug me.

[djreynolds]

Just make a warlock, get a shield proficiency somehow and war caster, use Eldritch Blast and just have a strap of leather as your arcane focus.

[SharkForce]

According to the ruling on Hand Crossbows, one-handed ammunition weapons still need two hands to use. So the fact that the sling is one-handed is mostly immaterial. You can use a Javelin with a shield, but not a sling. Yes, it does bug me.

it bugs me slightly, but not enough to make me want to allow crossbow expert with hand crossbow and shield, which any blanket ruling would allow.

[Sigreid]

it bugs me slightly, but not enough to make me want to allow crossbow expert with hand crossbow and shield, which any blanket ruling would allow.

This is also a case where depending on how the shield is strapped you may be able to have a hand free enough to do it. It's a talk to your DM kind of thing.

[DivisibleByZero]

The OP is confusing the Loading property with the Ammunition property.
Loading has no bearing on this.
Slings have the ammunition property, so they need 2 hands to load, so shield is out unless you have a lenient DM.
All the loading property does is limit the number of times that you can fire in a round, due to the need for the crossbow to be drawn and *then* loaded.
A shortbow doesn't have the Loading property. Can I use one while I have a shield in my hands?
Yes, I know that's a bad example, but you see my point.

[Knaight]

it bugs me slightly, but not enough to make me want to allow crossbow expert with hand crossbow and shield, which any blanket ruling would allow.

A sling specific one would be fine though, and it's worth observing that slings are exceptionally easy to load with a hand that is also doing something else. You're only interacting with a bit of cord and a pouch plus the ammunition, you don't need a lot of force (as you're not pulling against tension or anything), and of course there's the matter of historical precedent which crossbows do not have.

[ruy343]

[...] and of course there's the matter of historical precedent which crossbows do not have.

That's why, as DM, I would allow a character to one-hand a sling and use a shield at the same time. With that ruling (allowing a shield), it's actually fairly balanced, given that a character can actually use a d4 one-handed ranged weapon and wield a shield at the same time. Has anyone asked Mr. Crawford whether a sling can be used one-handed, given the historical precedent?

Also, I'm still inclined to believe that strength could be involved in the force of throwing a sling bullet. Small stones would fly fairly easily, but larger ones would require some strength to use repeatedly, no? Perhaps allow switch-hitting (between Dex and Str)?

[SharkForce]

That's why, as DM, I would allow a character to one-hand a sling and use a shield at the same time. With that ruling (allowing a shield), it's actually fairly balanced, given that a character can actually use a d4 one-handed ranged weapon and wield a shield at the same time. Has anyone asked Mr. Crawford whether a sling can be used one-handed, given the historical precedent?

Also, I'm still inclined to believe that strength could be involved in the force of throwing a sling bullet. Small stones would fly fairly easily, but larger ones would require some strength to use repeatedly, no? Perhaps allow switch-hitting (between Dex and Str)?

high strength might be helpful in getting the sling up to speed quicker i guess, but you really aren't hurling the stone with your strength, you're spinning it into a circle and then once it's moving fast enough you let the stone go. practically speaking, i don't think superior strength is going to help you get much more force behind the stone/bullet.

this is not to say it is completely unrelated; of course it isn't. you want a strong arm to get that bullet moving, and you're gonna need a lot of stamina to do that for an extended period of time. but the amount of force you eventually put into the projectile is going to be fairly similar for a big strong guy as it is for a fairly average guy.

[ruy343]

high strength might be helpful in getting the sling up to speed quicker i guess, but you really aren't hurling the stone with your strength, you're spinning it into a circle and then once it's moving fast enough you let the stone go. practically speaking, i don't think superior strength is going to help you get much more force behind the stone/bullet.

this is not to say it is completely unrelated; of course it isn't. you want a strong arm to get that bullet moving, and you're gonna need a lot of stamina to do that for an extended period of time. but the amount of force you eventually put into the projectile is going to be fairly similar for a big strong guy as it is for a fairly average guy.

Fair enough... there goes my hopes of making a str-based fighter with a sling/shield build...

[Sigreid]

high strength might be helpful in getting the sling up to speed quicker i guess, but you really aren't hurling the stone with your strength, you're spinning it into a circle and then once it's moving fast enough you let the stone go. practically speaking, i don't think superior strength is going to help you get much more force behind the stone/bullet.

this is not to say it is completely unrelated; of course it isn't. you want a strong arm to get that bullet moving, and you're gonna need a lot of stamina to do that for an extended period of time. but the amount of force you eventually put into the projectile is going to be fairly similar for a big strong guy as it is for a fairly average guy.

Perhaps take pitchers and quarterbacks as a convenient example. They need reasonably good strength to throw their respective balls, but one gets the impression that bulking up doesn't help with the throwing mechanics. Come to think of it, the same could be said of javelin throwers and basically all throwing sports except perhaps the shot-put and hammer throw.

[SharkForce]

Perhaps take pitchers and quarterbacks as a convenient example. They need reasonably good strength to throw their respective balls, but one gets the impression that bulking up doesn't help with the throwing mechanics. Come to think of it, the same could be said of javelin throwers and basically all throwing sports except perhaps the shot-put and hammer throw.

and the caber toss ;)

[Aett_Thorn]

Perhaps take pitchers and quarterbacks as a convenient example. They need reasonably good strength to throw their respective balls, but one gets the impression that bulking up doesn't help with the throwing mechanics. Come to think of it, the same could be said of javelin throwers and basically all throwing sports except perhaps the shot-put and hammer throw.

I was a 110-pound shot-putter in high school, and wasn't that far behind those on the team that were much stronger than I was. Most of these sports involve a decent amount of leverage and angle more than just brute strength. Certainly, being strong helps, but with sports like the hammer throw, being "bulky" is almost as good as being strong. You want a good counterweight to the hammer, and a bit of strength to start it spinning. After that, it's all momentum and the ability to release it at the right time and angle...much like a sling.

[MaxWilson]

On a similar note, what do people think of this guy's houserules to the sling (http://ludusludorum.com/2016/05/12/a-defense-of-the-humble-sling/)? It probably goes too far for my table in terms of houserules (I'd probably leave the long-sling behind), but it's a compelling argument.

I find those house rules compelling too. I'd like to adopt them.

[famousringo]

The OP is confusing the Loading property with the Ammunition property.
Loading has no bearing on this.
Slings have the ammunition property, so they need 2 hands to load, so shield is out unless you have a lenient DM.
All the loading property does is limit the number of times that you can fire in a round, due to the need for the crossbow to be drawn and *then* loaded.
A shortbow doesn't have the Loading property. Can I use one while I have a shield in my hands?
Yes, I know that's a bad example, but you see my point.

You're correct that recent clarifications on RAW prohibit the practical use of a sling and a shield, but there are a few good reasons to allow it anyway:

1. There is historical evidence that soldiers actually fought with a shield and sling.

2. I have seen a video of a re-enactor load and fire a sling while carrying a shield at a rate of about 10 shots per minute, comparable to the rate of fire of a trained longbowman.

3. Sling's inferior range and lower damage die, though perhaps not realistic, present a reasonable tradeoff for enjoying the AC bonus of a shield.

4. There is no "Sling Expert" feat that threatens to break all game balance.

[Kane0]

I liked how he referenced Lindy. I'm a fan.

[DivisibleByZero]

2. I have seen a video of a re-enactor load and fire a sling while carrying a shield at a rate of about 10 shots per minute,

10 shots per minute is exactly 1 per round.
So sure, if you want to be historically accurate, then you can use a shield, but in doing so the sling gains the Loading property.

[ruy343]

10 shots per minute is exactly 1 per round.
So sure, if you want to be historically accurate, then you can use a shield, but in doing so the sling gains the Loading property.

This is correct, but a 20th level fighter, with his unreasonable rate of fire, is firing up to 40 arrows per minute per the rules. Now, granted, arrows are theoretically easier to fire that fast from a low tension bow (Legolas's antics come to mind), but as a D&D player, I have no problem with the idea that a fictional fighting man could sling a whole lot more than is realistic.

[Sigreid]

I was a 110-pound shot-putter in high school, and wasn't that far behind those on the team that were much stronger than I was. Most of these sports involve a decent amount of leverage and angle more than just brute strength. Certainly, being strong helps, but with sports like the hammer throw, being "bulky" is almost as good as being strong. You want a good counterweight to the hammer, and a bit of strength to start it spinning. After that, it's all momentum and the ability to release it at the right time and angle...much like a sling.

Thanks for the personal feedback. As someone who never tried either I had no idea how important the raw strength would be.

[Knaight]

high strength might be helpful in getting the sling up to speed quicker i guess, but you really aren't hurling the stone with your strength, you're spinning it into a circle and then once it's moving fast enough you let the stone go. practically speaking, i don't think superior strength is going to help you get much more force behind the stone/bullet.

This doesn't actually resemble any slinging style - there is a use for windup spins to a limited extent, but it's generally either none or one, and there's an actual throwing motion of some sort at the end. I use a windup heavy style mostly (Figure 8* (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJjXXnDSB4s)), but there's still a distinct throw in there and not just a timed release.

On the issue of strength - the strength ability score covers a lot more than strength qua strength, so I'd consider it pretty reasonable for a sling.

*Add in a windup spin before the shown motion.

[RickAllison]

This doesn't actually resemble any slinging style - there is a use for windup spins to a limited extent, but it's generally either none or one, and there's an actual throwing motion of some sort at the end. I use a windup heavy style mostly (Figure 8* (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJjXXnDSB4s)), but there's still a distinct throw in there and not just a timed release.

On the issue of strength - the strength ability score covers a lot more than strength qua strength, so I'd consider it pretty reasonable for a sling.

*Add in a windup spin before the shown motion.

The point of a sling is essentially to make the "arm" longer and accurate sling-fire is traditionally by overhand throws (underhand throws may have been used for mass warfare because it allowed for increased range at the cost of accuracy, much like how arrow bombardments and musket volleys don't care because the projectile is hitting someone), and so is comparable to a baseball pitcher.

It is a common misconception that strength training helps pitching velocity (and thus slinging velocity). When you have such a low-mass projectile (and even more rapidly for sling bullets), you quickly reach a point where the additional strength isn't having a non-negligible difference on the the acceleration, and actually can reduce the velocity as the training that leads to greater strength encourages slow release (lifting, push-ups, etc.). Instead, the velocity is significantly improved through explosive exercises that encourage the body to be more elastic, more consistent with Acrobatics training.

Basically, a Str 12 person has plenty of power for a baseball when Dex would be more important, while Str 8 should be more than enough for a sling. Note this becomes less applicable as the projectiles gain mass, hence why javelins use strength.

[famousringo]

10 shots per minute is exactly 1 per round.
So sure, if you want to be historically accurate, then you can use a shield, but in doing so the sling gains the Loading property.

The point is that firing a sling several times a round with a shield is roughly as plausible as firing a longbow several times a round. Applying Loading to longbows is not what I'm advocating here.

Though I do agree that taking away the two-handed requirement from Ammunition, applying Loading to slings (and gutting Crossbow Expert) would bring slings closer to verisimilitude. At least sling + shield would be a usable combo for non-warriors.

[wilhelmdubdub]

Two ideas I had:

Give the player an item: sling of magic stone. The damage is D6, and i think it goes off of the caster's ability so it can conveniently be equal to the strength modifier of the thrower.

If you are looking for something besides a javelin to throw I wish there was still the orcish shotput. Maybe you can homebrew orcish shotput as a ranged bludgeoning weapon that goes off of strength. In 3x I think it was D10 but exotic.

[Coidzor]

3.X's shot put was, like, 2d6 bludgeoning as I recall, with a 10' range increment.