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Cowboy_ninja
2007-07-11, 09:55 PM
yea so your running a sorc that is suppose to fill the role of meatsheild/sword swinger. what do you do? what do you do:smalleek: ?


im looking for spells, feats, and advice in general from ayone who has ever tried this. do i go battle sorc and get armor and weapons proficencies? do i say "screw it" and use up my spells known for mage armor and sheild?

one thing i did think up and have a question on: can i take the feat battle caster (complete arcane) so that my battle sorc (unearthed arcana variant of sorcerer) can ignore spell resistance from medium armor?

yes we are all in agreement that wizards are better than sorc but just bare with me... who wants to pown all the time anyway? :smalltongue:

EDIT: spell failure not spell resistance

JackMage666
2007-07-11, 10:20 PM
one thing i did think up and have a question on: can i take the feat battle caster (complete arcane) so that my battle sorc (unearthed arcana variant of sorcerer) can ignore spell resistance from medium armor?

I don't know what you're talking about with Spell Resistance (as that's something entirely different), but, Yes, Battle Caster will allow a Battle Sorcerer to wear Medium armor with chance of Arcane Spell Failure. Remember, too, that you'll need to take Armor Proficiency (Medium), or you'll have proficiency issues anyway.
Consider Mithral Full-Plate for the most effective use of this.

Also, if you can, try to cheese out the Stalwart Sorcerer class feature in Complete Mage. It is cheesy, but it'll help your survival, especially as a meat shield. More HP is always better.

Somatic Weaponry (not sure the book) is another good one, as you no longer have to sheath your weapon to cast.

Oh, and I definately recommend going Battle Sorcerer if you want any resemblance of a meat shield or meleeist.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-11, 10:28 PM
If you really have to, Tenser's Transformation would turn you into a fighter for a brief period(Cleric with Divine Power+Righteous Might is better and still gets to cast spells, but meh, Divine cheats anyway.:smalltongue:)

Cowboy_ninja
2007-07-11, 10:36 PM
If you really have to, Tenser's Transformation would turn you into a fighter for a brief period(Cleric with Divine Power+Righteous Might is better and still gets to cast spells, but meh, Divine cheats anyway.:smalltongue:)

i was going to arcane diciple War and Strenght domain to get righteous might and divine power until someone in my last thread pointed out that they can only be cast 1/day. you still think its worth it though?

Firefingers
2007-07-11, 10:36 PM
hmm depending on level you might want to consider my post which is a few below this one (LA +4 race though and rolled stats but still workable if you point buy) it was decided defiantely removing the familar for spontaneous metamagics was good as was abjurant champion

Cowboy_ninja
2007-07-11, 10:44 PM
hmm depending on level you might want to consider my post which is a few below this one (LA +4 race though and rolled stats but still workable if you point buy) it was decided defiantely removing the familar for spontaneous metamagics was good as was abjurant champion

THAT is definetaly an idea worth exploring. go salwart sorc(complete mage) and abjurant champion. swift mage armor and sheild. plus i get all my spells known back for not going into battle sorc. plus i get to pick a twohanded weapon plus WF for my weapon of choice instead of a dinky ol' one handed one. but how the heck am i suppose to get a BAB of 5!? i'd like to keep my spellcaster class my primary class...

JackMage666
2007-07-11, 10:47 PM
From my understanding, Mage Armor doesn't work with Abjurant Champion, since Mage Armor is a conjuration spell. Look into that.

Firefingers
2007-07-11, 10:49 PM
hmm using stalwart sorc your best bet is 1 level fighter dip and use EK to up the BAB to 5 (loss of 2 caster levels) then AC till maxed and you can just keep upping the eldrich knight (EK) further to get more BAB and d6 HD with no further caster level loss.

Jack Mann
2007-07-11, 10:50 PM
If your DM allows things from the Wizards site, take a look at the swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327). Just spend a level using your third level spell slots on haste, and you'll be an excellent melee combatant.

Add in some abjurant champion to complete your levels to finish off.

If you have the spell compendium, you'll want to look into the bite of the X spells. Those are good for boosting your combat abilities..

Ramza00
2007-07-11, 10:50 PM
Use a runestave of war domain spells. With arcane disciple the spells are on your list, and now that they are on your list you don't need to worry about 1/day.

Greater Mighty Wallop a large bludgeoning weapon.
False Life
Blink and its advanced forms
Greater Magic Weapon
Wraithstrike
Heroics (depends on how your D&D interperts this you can get 1 feat and multiple castings extend the duration or you can get multiple feats with extended castings).
Contigency.

Douglas
2007-07-11, 10:57 PM
i was going to arcane diciple War and Strenght domain to get righteous might and divine power until someone in my last thread pointed out that they can only be cast 1/day. you still think its worth it though?
Try the Competition domain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051202a&page=5) from Spell Compendium. It has both of those spells in the same domain so you only have to spend one feat on it.

Cowboy_ninja
2007-07-11, 10:59 PM
From my understanding, Mage Armor doesn't work with Abjurant Champion, since Mage Armor is a conjuration spell. Look into that.

dangnammit your right! something good about abjurantion im missing? all you get is sheild and eventually stone skin.

Cowboy_ninja
2007-07-11, 11:02 PM
Use a runestave of war domain spells. With arcane disciple the spells are on your list, and now that they are on your list you don't need to worry about 1/day.

Greater Mighty Wallop a large bludgeoning weapon.
False Life
Blink and its advanced forms
Greater Magic Weapon
Wraithstrike
Heroics (depends on how your D&D interperts this you can get 1 feat and multiple castings extend the duration or you can get multiple feats with extended castings).
Contigency.

where is this runestave you speak of? also i dont have spell compedium and if you could tell me where most of those spells are. like the wraith strike, greater mighty wallop. THANKS!

Cowboy_ninja
2007-07-11, 11:04 PM
Try the Competition domain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051202a&page=5) from Spell Compendium. It has both of those spells in the same domain so you only have to spend one feat on it.

thanks for that tip. you think i can use that with the rune staff the other guy was talking about to get around the 1/day thing?

JackMage666
2007-07-11, 11:26 PM
Well, a +9 AC Shield as a Swift Action is nothing to scoff at (+4 basic, with 5 levels of Abjurant Champion boosting it to +9). As well, the energy resistance spells as other protective spells will save you in combat situations. Mage Armor isn't all that wonderful anyway, since you can get a good benefit from a +X Twighlight Mithral Shirt (No penalty from non-proficiency, 0% spell failure, 0 Armor Check Penalty).

Cowboy_ninja
2007-07-12, 12:19 AM
Well, a +9 AC Shield as a Swift Action is nothing to scoff at (+4 basic, with 5 levels of Abjurant Champion boosting it to +9). As well, the energy resistance spells as other protective spells will save you in combat situations. Mage Armor isn't all that wonderful anyway, since you can get a good benefit from a +X Twighlight Mithral Shirt (No penalty from non-proficiency, 0% spell failure, 0 Armor Check Penalty).

i was told twighlight was in DMGII but i cant find it... is it really in there? what page?

Fax Celestis
2007-07-12, 12:28 AM
It's in the PHB-II, with the Duskblade section.

Fishies
2007-07-12, 12:32 AM
do i say "screw it" and use up my spells known for mage armor and sheild?

Wait. There's casters who DON'T get mage armor or shield?

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-12, 01:07 AM
My suggestion:

Pal2/Sorc6/EK7/AbChamp5

Pal2 gives you Cha to saves. Sorc casts with Cha. Synergy = teh awsomeness.

This gives you the casting of a 17th level sorcerer and a BAB of +17 at level 20.

Alternately:

Fighter1/Sorc6/EK8/AbChamp5

No saves, but it's Caster Level 18, so you get a 9th level spell, and still has a BAB of +17

He's a Sorcerer... he's also a damn effective melee combatant.

Now, for gear..

+1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt. Twilight is a +1 equivelant and it gives you a -10% on ASF. This drops ASF to 0% for the mithral chain shirt.

Cloak of Charisma. More Cha = higher DC saves for your spells.

Metamagic Rods. Abuse the hell out of 'em. Grab a Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell, and use it on a Reach Greater Magic Weapon to make every weapon in the party uber for hours/level. Metamagic Rod of Empower, then use it on your Twin Ray Enervation for 2d4*1.5 negative levels.

Make sure you are the PhB2 variant sorcerer to do metamagic on the fly in exchange for a familiar.

Feats:

Metamagic. OMFG metamagic. the only non-metamagic feat you may want is Weapon Finesse to use Dex instead of Str for melee touch attacks. You can do this with the bonus feat from EK. If you're going to be a Ray specialist, Precise Shot might be handy to avoid shooting your buddies.

Twin Ray. If you want to use rays, make them twice as nasty with a +2 modifier

Quicken. Quickened True Strike is a 5th level spell which will almost flat guarentee that your next hit will land.

Reach Spell. Doing touch spells at range is always good, for offense AND defense.

Still/Silent spell. Get that spell off even if you have been silenced or grappled or bound and gagged or whatever. You're a sorcerer, use that flexability to apply metamagic to any spell known whenever you want to for your maximum advantage

JackMage666
2007-07-12, 01:07 AM
My casters don't normally take Mage Armor, but Shield is a given.

I mean, the Shield spell is better than a +2 Heavy Shield, and it's available at 1st level. It takes up no body spot, and gives you an AC bonus that isn't always used.

Mage Armor is alright, but it gets negated in a few levels... A +1 Twighlight Mithral Shirt is onlt 4100 gp, gives an extra +1 AC, and is (almost entirely) permanent. Also, it can be upgraded. The closest thing to a Mage Armor upgrade is Greater Mage Armor (Spell Compendum), and that's not all that great, either.

Fishies
2007-07-12, 01:10 AM
Mage armor is a really good buff at lower levels though, and it lasts a little longer.

TheLogman
2007-07-12, 01:15 AM
Havok Mage learns to cast through Melee attacks. Basically, he hits, then the spell he wants immediately affects the guy he just hit. However, said mage is in the Mini's Handbook, which most people do not have, and consider a waste.

Tibor
2007-07-12, 03:00 AM
Don't waste your time on battle sorcerer. Your spells known are weak enough.

A good build is Sorc 7/Swiftblade 3/Abjurant Champion 4/Swiftblade 6

Swiftblade is a bonus Prc on the Wizards site found here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

This allows you 9th level spells, all of your abjuration spells are quickened and extended automatically, Haste is auto quickened for you and cannot be dispelled, you get a 50% miss chance on all attacks and targeted spells, freedom of movement, and a +17 BAB.

Spells- Fist of Stone, Spider Skin, Luminous Armor/Greater Luminous Armor, Sheild, Wraith Strike, Haste (obviously), ect.

Feats- Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Practiced Spellcaster (makes up for 3 lost caster levels), Dodge, Mobility, Combat Casting.

Abjuration spells are your best friend as they're auto quickened and extended. With Abjurant champion and Greater Luminous Armor you can easily get a +12 to your AC for an armor bonus, Spider Skin (transmutation unfortunately) provides another +5 eventually, Sheild +9, and toss in a protection from X and you get another +2.

In two rounds you've given yourself a +28 to AC, most of it is force/deflection, and you're ready to wade into battle with no ASF.

Solo
2007-07-12, 05:17 AM
Is battle sorcerer really that bad?

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-12, 05:25 AM
Is battle sorcerer really that bad?

Yes. It reduces his tactical flexability even further to the point of worthlessness and gives nothing tangible back that cannot be obtained through good PrC choices.

Solo
2007-07-12, 05:31 AM
One thing that bothers me about some of the builds put forth is that they all lose caster levels. At level 20, the paladin/sorcerer can't cast 9th level spells, the Fighter/sorcerer gets 1 9th level spell, and the Spellsword... I'm not sure on the spellsword, but it seems to lose several caster levels.

Is this a valid concern?

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-12, 05:56 AM
One thing that bothers me about some of the builds put forth is that they all lose caster levels. At level 20, the paladin/sorcerer can't cast 9th level spells, the Fighter/sorcerer gets 1 9th level spell, and the Spellsword... I'm not sure on the spellsword, but it seems to lose several caster levels.

Is this a valid concern?

Yes, it is.

The paladin build looses the ability to cast 9th level spells. This means Time Stop. That's big. Very big. However Cha bonus to saves is also very big. Considering Cha is your casting stat, you're going to want at least a +6 from Cha at a minimum, more if you can get it. That's... huge.

The fighter build gets one 9th level spell, but multiple times per day. That's your Time Stop, or metamagic'd other spells. So you get to do fun things like Time Stop/Greater Shadow Evocation (Forcecage)/Cloudkill/Dimension Lock or just plain Time Stop/Delayed Blast Fireball X 4.

Solo
2007-07-12, 06:09 AM
The paladin build looses the ability to cast 9th level spells. This means Time Stop. That's big. Very big. However Cha bonus to saves is also very big. Considering Cha is your casting stat, you're going to want at least a +6 from Cha at a minimum, more if you can get it. That's... huge.

That's sweet, but then again, 9th level spells doeth rock mightily....

Do you think that the CHA to saves outweighs the loss of 9th level spells?

Shapechange, Timestop, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction are pretty rocking spells...

Reinboom
2007-07-12, 07:34 AM
I recommend you make a noted amount of how many spell levels you are willing to give up, then build from there.
Thing to note is something like: Ok, I'm only willing to give up 1 level of casting, my options for PrCs?: I could dip 3 levels into spellsword (only 1 caster level loss) and then move out to abjurant champion and similar. This requires some hefty feat taking however. I could dip 3 levels into swiftblade, 5 levels into abjurant champion, 1 level into spellsword (losing, 1 level of spellcasting only again, from swiftblade). Any of these lets you grab 9th level at 19.

If you have 2 levels to spare, you gain many more options. 6 levels of swiftblade into 5 levels of abjurant champion, for example.
That's Sorcerer 6/Swiftblade 6/Abjurant Champion 5 (covering 17 levels).
From here, just fill in a prestige class in it. Like Ruathar (3 levels, full spellcasting)- you should've been able to "help an elf" by then.
To mix it a bit. Sorcerer 6/Swiftblade 3/Abjurant Champion 2/Swiftblade 3 more/ Abjurant Champion 3 more. (This lets you cover 5th level spells more quickly, and to grab the swift shield more quickly). Any of these let you grab 9th level at 20.


I would recommend avoiding the spellsword however. Unless you take an ECL +1 race (probably outsider) to grab you martial proficiency and armor proficiency - if your DM allows LA buyoff. If not, then grab 1 level of a melee class. Even using stalwart sorcerer, the armor proficiencies of spellsword is rude. If you are going to take spellsword, either go 1 level of it (no spell loss), or 3 levels of it (1 spell loss). In my opinion, it's not "good enough" to cover 2 spell progression losses for.

sikyon
2007-07-12, 07:38 AM
Can you use polymorph?

Droodle
2007-07-12, 10:08 AM
One thing that bothers me about some of the builds put forth is that they all lose caster levels. At level 20, the paladin/sorcerer can't cast 9th level spells, the Fighter/sorcerer gets 1 9th level spell, and the Spellsword... I'm not sure on the spellsword, but it seems to lose several caster levels.

Is this a valid concern?Not so much if you are going with a swiftblade. His capstone ability is basically timestop. If you must, you can also compensate for the decrease in caster effectiveness by taking practiced spellcaster (a Gish doesn't usually need to do this because of the types of spells he uses).

Roderick_BR
2007-07-12, 10:55 AM
Get Shielded Casting (reqs: Combat Expertise, and Shield Proficiency, and some ranks of concentration) from Races of Stone. You no longer provokes Attacks of Opportunity when casting (auto success on concentration check) when you wear a shield. If you already use shields, and have a feat to spare, it'll save you the trouble to roll concentration to avoid AoO.

Dausuul
2007-07-12, 11:12 AM
Question I'm surprised nobody has asked yet: What level are you starting at? And what level do you think you're likely to reach before the campaign ends? A 20th-level build is worthless if you start at 5th and wrap up by 10th.