(New DM) Help with Multi-Classing

[Scorppayne]

So I'm going to be GMing a game sometime in the future, and one of the players in my group wants to play as a werecroc. Yes, a werecroc. So I've been a little confused on how to approach this.

From a backstory perspective, that's up to him, but I've thought of two basic choices: Either it's a curse, or an ability.

Curse = He can't control when it happens, and goes into some sort of frenzy/rage when he does after failing a wisdom saving throw.
Ability = Transformation happens at his will, but limited to certain usages before long rests.

The next thing I need to figure out, is his class. He said he wanted to do sort of a multi-class, but not in a traditional sense. A multi-class in a way so that in human form he's a bard, but when transformed, a barbarian. So how would I make this work? Is it OP to practically give him two character sheets for each form at LVL 1 with all the features of the corresponding class? I don't want him to out-shine the other players by doing this, but I want to make it fun and interesting.

Help is appreciated!

[Kane0]

What about moon druid? One or two levels for the the two of you to get used to the game and build up flavor, and at level 3 he starts being able to turn into his creature form. You might even like to restrict him to only that form but also give him a hybrid option.

[djreynolds]

I would just make him a bard, and when he rages he uses the MM for a were croc, or were bear instead. He uses those.

[Lacrimosa]

shameless plug pitch him this he sounds like a power gamer this is how I've dealt with them in my own campaigns

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?504342-Just-add-a-little-insanity-thread-for-Gm-s-and-Power-Gamers

[moveable feats]

So I'm going to be GMing a game sometime in the future, and one of the players in my group wants to play as a werecroc. Yes, a werecroc. So I've been a little confused on how to approach this.

From a backstory perspective, that's up to him, but I've thought of two basic choices: Either it's a curse, or an ability.

Curse = He can't control when it happens, and goes into some sort of frenzy/rage when he does after failing a wisdom saving throw.
Ability = Transformation happens at his will, but limited to certain usages before long rests.

The next thing I need to figure out, is his class. He said he wanted to do sort of a multi-class, but not in a traditional sense. A multi-class in a way so that in human form he's a bard, but when transformed, a barbarian. So how would I make this work? Is it OP to practically give him two character sheets for each form at LVL 1 with all the features of the corresponding class? I don't want him to out-shine the other players by doing this, but I want to make it fun and interesting.

Help is appreciated!

He's asking for a dual-class not a multi-class. That should be an easy NO. Multi-class has rules/restrictions but dual-classing in 5e is just straight cheating.

[Fuzzy Logic]

I'd advise: remind him you're a new DM and youd like to learn the base rules before you try any homebrew. If hes really just after his character concept rather than a power up, a moon druid with the performance skill should do about what he wants, and he can multi, not dual, to barbarian once he's high enough level to become a croc.
edit: re-read and you're not new, sorry got your thread mixed up with a different one.

[Citan]

So I'm going to be GMing a game sometime in the future, and one of the players in my group wants to play as a werecroc. Yes, a werecroc. So I've been a little confused on how to approach this.

From a backstory perspective, that's up to him, but I've thought of two basic choices: Either it's a curse, or an ability.

Curse = He can't control when it happens, and goes into some sort of frenzy/rage when he does after failing a wisdom saving throw.
Ability = Transformation happens at his will, but limited to certain usages before long rests.

The next thing I need to figure out, is his class. He said he wanted to do sort of a multi-class, but not in a traditional sense. A multi-class in a way so that in human form he's a bard, but when transformed, a barbarian. So how would I make this work? Is it OP to practically give him two character sheets for each form at LVL 1 with all the features of the corresponding class? I don't want him to out-shine the other players by doing this, but I want to make it fun and interesting.

Help is appreciated!
Hi!
It's a very interesting concept, but I really think it would not be a good idea to make a dual-class. Very complex for you and for him to manage, difficult to balance, other players may feel overly discriminated.

What I would suggest would be letting him be "just a Bard", with a one-form only Wildshape, being the Crocodile, with following changes.
1. HP is always his Bard HP, plus THP equal to his character level when he transforms and a +1 bonus to AC (to reflect the additional sturdiness from scales) as long as his transformation lasts.

2. He gets the Rage feature (but only this) that follows his character progression, but he can use it only in the croc form obviously.

3. Whatever Bard school he chooses, when he reaches 6th character level, he gets Extra Attack while transformed.

4. At character level 12, while transformed, when he kills an enemy with a melee attack he gains THP equal to his CHA modifier.

This should be flavorful and powerful enough to get fun with the concept without throwing all balance overboard. ;)

[DanyBallon]

Citan option sound pretty spot on, otherwise, I would create a spell that cause the target to go into rage. The character bard could know this spell, and would be able to use a spell slot to cast it on himself to go into rage. As for the were-croc, I would start it as a curse and after some time (around level 5-10) he would be able to get a better control on it and transform anytime he rages. Finaly later on (level 15-20) I let him transform without raging a few time per rest (getting inspiration from druid wildshape)

[Sir cryosin]

No absolutely not it will out shine and throw your game way off balance. We had a player this was are very first 5e game the player took all are dragon scales and had dragon armor made then later got the Dm to let him turn into a young dragon once per day thanks to his armor. Then when we finished that campaign he was trying to convince the DM to alow him to duel class. So see this stuff it so much op. So as some said above me tell him to play a moon druid. In a lot of folklore were-creature didn't always looked humanoid they just looked like bigger version on there creatures.

[Citan]

Citan option sound pretty spot on, otherwise, I would create a spell that cause the target to go into rage. The character bard could know this spell, and would be able to use a spell slot to cast it on himself to go into rage. As for the were-croc, I would start it as a curse and after some time (around level 5-10) he would be able to get a better control on it and transform anytime he rages. Finaly later on (level 15-20) I let him transform without raging a few time per rest (getting inspiration from druid wildshape)
Interesting approach. ;)
Actually, I'd say both our suggestions could complement each other very well...
- My suggestion (just stripped of the "number of rages per day" aspect) takes care of the power balance while raged.
- Yours hop on spell progression to take care of the "how often" aspect.

However, I see a problem with your approach that mine don't have.
Either you make it a 1st level spell, then the character gets many more resources quickly (lvl 2, lvl 3) making him "more rageous" (XD) than a pure Barbarian of same level, then hit a bit flat because he already gets max number of 1st level (or he has to use higher slots, but that's sad with no upcast).

Or you make it a 2nd level spell, which delays the problem and makes the concept come online late.
And I'm afraid it could be difficult to later balance the gift of free uses.

IF the idea interests OP, I'd then suggest a special "upcast" spell that combines the two ideas.
(Sorry no time to make fluff).
1st level spell: you enter a rage, that lasts one minute. When you enter the rage, you gain a number of THP equal to five times the level at which you cast this spell.

While raging, you gain a +1 bonus to your AC and whenever you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, it deals extra damage equal to 1 + the spell's level.

Your rage ends early if (>>> copypaste relevant section from Barbarian).

At Higher Levels.
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, for the duration, the number of attacks you can make when you take the Attack action on your turn increases to two.
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, for the duration, the number of attacks you can make when you take the Attack action on your turn increases to three.
When you cast this spell using a 9th level spell slot, for the duration, the number of attacks you can make when you take the Attack action on your turn increases to four.

Seems nice enough to me, scales nicely with slots.
I thought about putting a maximum to damage, but considering that you get only one slot for 6th, 7th 8th and 9th, and considering how much better you could do with the usual spells, seems not OP to me to allow such a character to go beyond a Fighter or Barbarian by using his highest magic "just" to deal great physical damage once in the day (especially since Bard does not get the Barb defensive features, nor the Fighter's proficiencies and Constitution).

What would you say? :)

[DanyBallon]

Interesting approach. ;)
Actually, I'd say both our suggestions could complement each other very well...
- My suggestion (just stripped of the "number of rages per day" aspect) takes care of the power balance while raged.
- Yours hop on spell progression to take care of the "how often" aspect.

However, I see a problem with your approach that mine don't have.
Either you make it a 1st level spell, then the character gets many more resources quickly (lvl 2, lvl 3) making him "more rageous" (XD) than a pure Barbarian of same level, then hit a bit flat because he already gets max number of 1st level (or he has to use higher slots, but that's sad with no upcast).

Or you make it a 2nd level spell, which delays the problem and makes the concept come online late.
And I'm afraid it could be difficult to later balance the gift of free uses.

IF the idea interests OP, I'd then suggest a special "upcast" spell that combines the two ideas.
(Sorry no time to make fluff).
1st level spell: you enter a rage, that lasts one minute. When you enter the rage, you gain a number of THP equal to five times the level at which you cast this spell.

While raging, you gain a +1 bonus to your AC and whenever you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, it deals extra damage equal to 1 + the spell's level.

Your rage ends early if (>>> copypaste relevant section from Barbarian).

At Higher Levels.
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, for the duration, the number of attacks you can make when you take the Attack action on your turn increases to two.
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, for the duration, the number of attacks you can make when you take the Attack action on your turn increases to three.
When you cast this spell using a 9th level spell slot, for the duration, the number of attacks you can make when you take the Attack action on your turn increases to four.

Seems nice enough to me, scales nicely with slots.
I thought about putting a maximum to damage, but considering that you get only one slot for 6th, 7th 8th and 9th, and considering how much better you could do with the usual spells, seems not OP to me to allow such a character to go beyond a Fighter or Barbarian by using his highest magic "just" to deal great physical damage once in the day (especially since Bard does not get the Barb defensive features, nor the Fighter's proficiencies and Constitution).

What would you say? :)

I didn't thought about upcasting the spell. I was simply thinking of a 1st level spell that would compete against other useful spells that the Bard character would need. At some point he'll have to choose between raging or casting bard spell.
Or since it's a unique spell, the target could enter rage for one minute and suffer one exhaustion level that fade away after a short rest.

My only concern about your proposition, is that the rage spell would give both the benefits of barbarian rage and fighter multiple extra attacks. And since multiple extra attack is one of the only thing that you can't have unless you dedicate at least 11 level as a fighter, I'm not too kind into providing other means to get it.

[Citan]

I didn't thought about upcasting the spell. I was simply thinking of a 1st level spell that would compete against other useful spells that the Bard character would need. At some point he'll have to choose between raging or casting bard spell.
Or since it's a unique spell, the target could enter rage for one minute and suffer one exhaustion level that fade away after a short rest.

My only concern about your proposition, is that the rage spell would give both the benefits of barbarian rage and fighter multiple extra attacks. And since multiple extra attack is one of the only thing that you can't have unless you dedicate at least 11 level as a fighter, I'm not too kind into providing other means to get it.
Yeah, I admit I have been hesitating to include it.
But, it seemed actually right for the concept.

If you compare:
Fighter gets 3rd attack at 11th level, and 4th at 20th, which he can do all day long, in heavy armor + GWM, and other defensive features inlcuding concentration proficiency, self heal and save reroll.
And every short rest, he can chain two turns in which he does 10 attacks (EK: 4 Attack + 4 Attack + 1 Haste + 1 bonus action), with probably GWM or Sharpshooter stacked on, since he has many available ASI to max stat and go wild on feats.

Barbarian gets advantage on initiative, consistant advantage on attacks, resistance to damage, 0 hp saves, unlimited rage in the end (so all day long) which gives +4, along the STR and CON boost which gives another +2 to damage and AC.

What does this homebrew get at the highest? A once per day ability (9th level spell) that gives 4 attacks per turn, +10 damage on melee, for one minute concentration, on a chassis that...
- Either waste Extra Attack (Valor Bard) or be stuck with Longsword (Lore) or spend a feat on Skilled (Lore).
- Has no concentration proficiency, nor great Constitution stat (because he has to get good attack stat and good casting stat already). So because the ability works only in melee, there is a significant chance that the concentration will be broken before the end unless player is extra careful. Unless he spend an ASI on Resilient/Warcaster, so one less ASI to bump stats.
- Has only decent armor because no heavy armor proficiency, so stuck with medium armor or light armor + shield, with probably a not-so-good DEX (Makes me realize though that although I thought about it, I didn't actually write it: but for me it's obvious you should get the benefit only if you use STR-based melee weapons, as the normal rage).
- Has no great low/mid level defensive options except Greater Invisibility, which uses concentration. So he would have to use Magic Secrets to get non-concentration defensive buffs such as Armor of Agathys or Fire Shield, which is a pretty heavy investment.
- Has absolutely no built-in defensive features compared to other martials.
- has no built-in offensive features to get advantage for example (although arguably one would obviously grab Expertise in Athletics, wasting one attack to Shove enemy prone).
- And prevents himself from casting anything while he is raging (not even self-heal with Healing Words).

Frankly, I think it's fine: you just have a caster than can switch to be a decent martial warrior for every encounter (casting "Rage" as 5th or lower spell), a good damage dealer 3 minutes max per long rest, and a great damage dealer one minute max per long rest.
All of this by sacrificing slots that could be used to cast Wish, Simulacrum, Meteor Storm, True Polymorph, Wall of Force etc...

If you make some maths simulations, you will see that it's absolutely not OP in terms of potential, considering the limitations, to what spells of these levels can do.

And it's not tiptoeing on Fighter/Barbarian either, because you are still a frail caster at core, so you just get a "glass cannon morph" a few times per day. :)

Maybe if the OP was sacrificing everything for the sake of buffing his martial could this maybe be overpowered, but even then I think not.
- ASI: max STR, go Valor, take Heavily Armored feat, take Resilient Constitution, take Tough, take Mobile.
- Spells: grab Armor of Agathys, Mirror Image, Fire Shield, Longstrider, ???
IF you have time to prepare, so you can cast at least AoA and FS before engaging, well nice, you blew at least 2*4th level spells (because at high level, lower AoA would be a waste) in addition to your greatest Rage to be great for one fight. For the rest of the day... XD

[Herobizkit]

Barbarian + Entertainer background = "Bard"barian.
Barbarian/Moon Druid + Entertainer = shapeshifting "Bard"barian
+ bear totem = re-fluffed to "croc" totem.

Another option was already mentioned: to allow Druidic shape-shifting as a were-thing with hybrid form in trade for only said form. Two morphs per short rest is plenty.

Sounds like the guy just wants to Hulk out and be near unstoppable. ^_^

What, specifically, does the player want from Bard? You may be able to swap abilities (say, trading the Bardic 'Buff Allies' power for Rage that only buffs himself).

But really, Bear totem Barbarian/Moon Druid + Entertainer will get him hella far if he has the patience to wait for it.

[mgshamster]

I have a player who did something similar, but with a bear.

He's a straight moon druid, and simply refuses to shift into anything but different bear types.

Since the druid has full magical capabilities, then tell your player to pick up the entertainer background. When he's in human form, he's a "bard." When he's in animal form, he's a croc.

Then he simply has to never change into any other kind of animal. If he ever does, then you know he wasn't looking for the cool character concept and story, but was rather trying to find a way to cheat with dm permission.

[DwarvenGM]

I agree with the moon druid entertainer idea others stated. Since you are a new dm I'd avoid homebrewing anything too complicated as it can get out of hands very fast. I'd let him alter the fluff on the forms. Maybe use the bear stats as a werecroc. That'd mimic the extra damage and extra hp of a barbarian with out dual classing.

As long as he's reasonable this should work for him.