Hit points and levelling

[Foxydono]

I have a question about levelling and hit points. Lets say a first level character has 2 hit points left out of a maximum of 10. The character levels up and gains an additional 6 hit points.

Does the player then have 2 or 8 hit points out of a maximum of 16?

[Arial Black]

Eight.

When you level up, both your current AND maximum hit point totals increase by the specified amount.

[Douche]

Eight.

When you level up, both your current AND maximum hit point totals increase by the specified amount.

Is that written somewhere? Most DM's I know only allow you to level up during a long rest, and furthermore only at the end on a session - to avoid wasting 20 minutes with people all saying "oooh I can learn this spell now! Oooh what feat should I take? Oooh I gained max hit points!"

[RSP]

Yeah, leveling occurs when a DM chooses. This has no RAW answer and is strictly DM fiat, so far as I'm aware.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I wrote it into my list of house rules that gaining hit dice or raising your Con modifier gives you as many current as maximum hit points.

[Foxydono]

After a long rest seems reasonable, I'll do that next time. Normally they level after the session, but this time they started with needing very little xp for the next level, so after doing a sidequest it seemed fair to level them up. I told them in advance to think about what they wanted for the next level, so it didn't take a lot of time :)

[Sigreid]

As a general rule, I don't even think about or award xp until the end of the gaming session. Gaming sessions also usually (but not always) end with the party starting a long rest to make it easier to pick up next time.

[Tanarii]

I have a question about levelling and hit points. Lets say a first level character has 2 hit points left out of a maximum of 10. The character levels up and gains an additional 6 hit points.

Does the player then have 2 or 8 hit points out of a maximum of 16?2 hit points.

Per the PHB/Basic rules:
Each time you gain a level, you gain 1 additional Hit Die. Roll that Hit Die, add your Constitution modifier to the roll, and add the total to your hit point maximum. (Basic Rules p. 10)

So you only increase your maximum, not current hit points. I searched the document for the phrase "hit point maximum" and nowhere is there a rule that when it changes, your current hit points change, just that your current hit points can't go above your hit point maximum.

[Âmesang]

I think I'd like to try having players level up as they gain the requisite points, at least if they know how they're upgrading their character ahead of time.

Guess I've just seen too much Dragon Ball Z and am used to the idea of someone reaching a new level of power during combat, not after a nap.*

*Vegeta on Namek notwithstanding.

[Erys]

2 hit points.

Per the PHB/Basic rules:
Each time you gain a level, you gain 1 additional Hit Die. Roll that Hit Die, add your Constitution modifier to the roll, and add the total to your hit point maximum. (Basic Rules p. 10)

So you only increase your maximum, not current hit points. I searched the document for the phrase "hit point maximum" and nowhere is there a rule that when it changes, your current hit points change, just that your current hit points can't go above your hit point maximum.

This is technically correct.

All the more reason to not give xp until long rests or end of night.

[SillyPopeNachos]

I think I'd like to try having players level up as they gain the requisite points, at least if they know how they're upgrading their character ahead of time.

Guess I've just seen too much Dragon Ball Z and am used to the idea of someone reaching a new level of power during combat, not after a nap.*

*Vegeta on Namek notwithstanding.

All the Saiyans get stronger upon recovery if the fight in which they were engaged was severe enough to trigger a Zenkai, and many powered up upon emerging from the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. The only real time characters powered up in the middle of fights were exceptional, such as Goku fighting Frieza (after seeing Krillin die), Cell after many instances due to hax, and Buu after absorbing anyone. Gohan doesn't count because as Goku pointed out, he just hadn't realized he was already at the ssj2 level inside the hyperbolic time chamber, he just didn't realize it until he was fighting Cell.

[Tanarii]

I watched various parts of that show when my friends were binge watching the series for a month or two ... and it STILL doesn't make a lick of sense.

This is why I never talk about D&D to non-D&D people. :smallbiggrin:

[Arial Black]

Any increase or decrease to your maximum hit points has an equal effect on your current hit points.

Let's imagine, for a moment, what would happen if your current hit points did not change as your max changed:-

* I have taken a sword stroke, and it gave me an eight point wound. Ah, I leveled up; wait, that one wound is now a 14 point wound? WTF?

* I just gained +2 Con, and now I'm tougher. How come I'm still on the same hit points?

* I am totally unwounded, and just leveled up. Wait, now I have a six hit point injury that needs healing? WTF?

Do you remember 3E, when barbarians got +4 Str and Con when raging? They had to be careful that they weren't too close to zero hp, or they could die when the rage ended because when their max hp went back down to normal, their current hp dropped by the same amount.

[Tanarii]

Any increase or decrease to your maximum hit points has an equal effect on your current hit points.Care to provide a rules quote? Because I can't find any RAW to back that up.

Edit: also why are you viewing increased max hit points but same current hit points as a wound? That's crazy. You just gained the potential to be tougher, but need some time to rest before you can take advantage of it. Neither is great for verisimilitude, because hit points. But your way seems like going out of your way to view them in a way that's ridiculous, given two obvious interpretations of what it represents.

[Plaguescarred]

Current and maximum hit points are two different things, hence why Life Drain attacks (such as Wight) only reduce one and not the other. Leveling up only increase hit point maximum.

[Arial Black]

Care to provide a rules quote? Because I can't find any RAW to back that up.

Edit: also why are you viewing increased max hit points but same current hit points as a wound? That's crazy. You just gained the potential to be tougher, but need some time to rest before you can take advantage of it. Neither is great for verisimilitude, because hit points. But your way seems like going out of your way to view them in a way that's ridiculous, given two obvious interpretations of what it represents.

I admit that 5E doesn't make that clear, but the hit point concept (and the relationship between current and maximum hit points) has not changed over the editions.

I suppose JC, having played through the earlier editions, understands this relationship so completely that it never occurred to him that he needed to spell it out.

Tell me, when an uninjured PC levels up and his current hp are unchanged while his max increases, where did the would come from? Will a bandage make it better? Where do I put the bandage?

I've just seen your edit; whatever hit points are meant to represent, if your current hp is less than your max hp it is because you took damage.

If the increase in max hp just represents potential that can be realised after resting (unlike ALL of the other stuff you get from leveling which comes online instantly) then how can healing magic work? According to that model, there is no wound to heal! But there is absolutely no reason for the healing magic to fail to have the normal effect of adding to your current hp up to your max hp.

[Arial Black]

Current and maximum hit points are two different things, hence why Life Drain attacks (such as Wight) only reduce one and not the other.

The wight (and similar creatures) never reduce you max hp, unless they reduce your current hp by the same amount!

[Tanarii]

I admit that 5E doesn't make that clear, but the hit point concept (and the relationship between current and maximum hit points) has not changed over the editions.5e doesn't say it at all that I can find. Which means you're making the mistake of bringing forward an assumption from previous editions.


Tell me, when an uninjured PC levels up and his current hp are unchanged while his max increases, where did the would come from?What wound?


Will a bandage make it better? Where do I put the bandage?I dunno. How do you bandage a psychic 'wound'? Hit points != wound. The PHB makes that clear.


I've just seen your edit; whatever hit points are meant to represent, if your current hp is less than your max hp it is because you took damage.Or your maximum hit points went up somehow, but your current didn't.


If the increase in max hp just represents potential that can be realised after resting (unlike ALL of the other stuff you get from leveling which comes online instantly) then how can healing magic work? According to that model, there is no wound to heal! But there is absolutely no reason for the healing magic to fail to have the normal effect of adding to your current hp up to your max hp.
how does healing magic or bandages restore luck, or exhaustion?

Stop trying to make how hit points fail to 'work' as a simulation because they are an abstraction, into a justification for a rule that doesn't appear to actually exist in this edition.

Edit: Alternatively, tweet JC. Lets see what he thinks. Maybe you're right and I'm just making an assumption because I couldn't find the rule, and it's actually supposed to work the same way as 3e. I think that's a dangerous way to think unless we have some reason to believe it to be true. But I'll take a devs word on it.

[Arial Black]

Alternatively, tweet JC. Lets see what he thinks. Maybe you're right and I'm just making an assumption because I couldn't find the rule, and it's actually supposed to work the same way as 3e. I think that's a dangerous way to think unless we have some reason to believe it to be true. But I'll take a devs word on it.

Excellent idea!

All we need is someone who is on twitter to tweet JC with the question:-

"Do my newly acquired hit points from leveling increase my current hp as well as my max hp? Or just my max hp?"

Any problems with the wording?

[Tanarii]

Any problems with the wording?No, just with us both not having a twitter account hahahahahaha

[Plaguescarred]

The wight (and similar creatures) never reduce you max hp, unless they reduce your current hp by the same amount!You don't get the point i'm making, if what is affecting maximum hit points also affected current hit points, the Life Drain action would then reduce your current hit points twice!

What affect maximum hit points doesn't affect current ones unless noted otherwise.

[Arial Black]

You don't get the point i'm making, if what is affecting maximum hit points also affected current hit points, the Life Drain action would then reduce your current hit points twice!

What affect maximum hit points doesn't affect current ones unless noted otherwise.

Think about having to write, in 'natural language' and in as few words as possible, the attack which either:-

* does normal, combat-type damage to hit points in the normal manner

OR

* reduces max hp, which simultaneously reduces current hp by the same amount.

According to the way carrier attacks (where something extra happens on a failed save) are worded, first you note how much damage the hit does, and then note what happens on a failed save.

So, the attack does X necrotic damage. Then, make a save. If you fail the save, what happens? Well, are you going to write a long-winded explanation which culminates in 'the original hit doesn't do any damage after all, but its max hp (and therefore its current hp) are reduced by the damage it would have done'.

No, they worded it in the only 'natural language' way they could.

It doesn't mean that you need healing every time you level up!

[Plaguescarred]

It doesn't mean that you need healing every time you level up!Where does it say healing happens everytime when you level up then?

I was just giving an exemple of where maximum hit points is used. When it's affected, it doesn't mean it affect current hit points as well unless noted otherwise. They have a seperate space on a character record sheet because it's different.

If you claim the rules says something affecting maximum hit points also affect current hit points, the burden is on you to provide evidence of that.

[Zanthy1]

When my players level up I have them restore to full HP anyways, often because it is a during a long rest (usually at the end/beginning of a session). It is just easier. However, there was a time we did a full day session, where they leveled up 3-4 times, which was when we took a short break for food and just rest lol.

[Plaguescarred]

Good exemples of something that specifically increase both your hit point maximum and current hit points are the spells aid and heroe's feast.

And if on the other hand what affected hit point maximum also affected current hit points by default, the spell aura of life would be horribly broken since your hit point maximum can't be reduced.

[Arial Black]

Where does it say healing happens everytime when you level up then?

You don't need healing because you are not injured!

Leveling up includes being able to take more punishment before falling, including having more hit points.


If you claim the rules says something affecting maximum hit points also affect current hit points, the burden is on you to provide evidence of that.

In this you are correct, and I'm afraid the 5E PHB does not provide it.

Maybe in a future errata. Has anyone Tweeted JC?

I must point out that the 5E rules set is quite sketchy in some places. Unlike 3E where everything combat related was defined to within an inch of its life, 5E expects us to do the fine tuning ourselves.

Those of us who played the previous editions have the advantage that, when 5E hasn't changed a rule but hasn't mentioned it either (like the subject of this thread), we can simply use the rule we already know; problem solved.

The idea behind this sparse writing style and using 'natural language' has both advantages and disadvantages. Unlike the 5E game mechanic, they don't cancel out. :smallsmile:

One of the disadvantages is that there are holes to fill in the rules. 5E encourages 'rulings not rules'. If we want a solid ruling, then using the tried-and-tested rule from a previous edition, which happened to address this very problem, is an ideal and fair ruling.

I feel a bit sorry for those who only have the 5E rulebook; I feel that they have an incomplete rules set. They have weird ideas about stuff that those who played previous editions would never have. Like thinking that the 'instantaneous' spell duration doesn't refer to a time-span (despite it being a spell duration!) and instead refers to a special kind of undispellable magic that lasts for up to six seconds.

Or thinking that leveling up causes a wound that needs healing.

If JC had written something like, "When you gain a level, your hit points increase", then some people would take that as meaning they heal, but their max hp remain unchanged.

So he heads that off at the pass by writing, "Your maximum hit points increase", thinking that it resolves any possible misunderstanding. He's been playing various editions of D&D for years, and everyone knows that when your maximum hit point change, your current hit points change by the same amount! It never occurs to him that people don't realise that.

For the love of all the gods, someone Tweet the man that question I constructed earlier:-

"Do my newly acquired hit points from leveling increase my current hp as well as my max hp? Or just my max hp?"

[Arial Black]

And if on the other hand what affected hit point maximum also affected current hit points by default, the spell aura of life would be horribly broken since your hit point maximum can't be reduced.

Why would that be broken? Creatures have their current hp reduced without their max hp being reduced all the time?

What problems would it cause?

[Plaguescarred]

Why would that be broken? Creatures have their current hp reduced without their max hp being reduced all the time?

What problems would it cause?Well if you can't see how a 4th level spell that would make your party's current hit points not reduceable is problematic i don't know what to tell you :)

[Plaguescarred]

Also leveling up while dying would revive you if things that affected hit point maximum also affected current hit points. :)

[Arial Black]

Well if you can't see how a 4th level spell that would make your party's current hit points not reduceable is problematic i don't know what to tell you :)

Having your max hp be irreducible for a few minutes neither increases nor decreases your max hp. Since your max hp total does not change, and it is the changing of your max hp total that also changes your current hp total, then not changing your max hp will have no effect whatsoever on your current hp total.

Nobody suggested that any in-game effect that targets your max hp must have an identical effect on your current hp. Just because your max hp cannot be reduced, this doesn't mean that your current hp cannot be reduced!

If your max hp changes then your current hp changes by the same amount. By definition, if your max hp doesn't change, then this rule doesn't get triggered.

[Arkhios]

This discussion could've been avoided if you used Training to gain level optional rule from DMG.
You can receive a buttload of experience points but they won't do you any good if you don't train to get the level up.

Ever since our DM introduced this to us, I've been wondering why this isn't the default rule.

It makes more sense than getting level up instantly when you chop off that final goblin's head.

[Arial Black]

Also leveling up while dying would revive you if things that affected hit point maximum also affected current hit points. :)

:smallsmile:

[Tanarii]

This discussion could've been avoided if you used Training to gain level optional rule from DMG.
You can receive a buttload of experience points but they won't do you any good if you don't train to get the level up.

Ever since our DM introduced this to us, I've been wondering why this isn't the default rule.

It makes more sense than getting level up instantly when you chop off that final goblin's head.
Because it went out of vogue in MUDs and other early RPG Video Games. Although TBH, I remember most of my 1e groups ignoring the rules on that anyway. But at least in BECMI / 1e / 2e we generally waited until after we made it out of the dungeon or otherwise to an area without too much danger. (Some modules designed to be stuck in the adventure across multiple levels were exceptions.)

[Plaguescarred]

If your max hp changes then your current hp changes by the same amount. This is an assumption of yours, not RAW as admitted even by you earlier. Not to say it would also be redundant from aid and heroe's feats to say it if it was a rule. :smallsmile:

[Coffee_Dragon]

This is an assumption of yours, not RAW as admitted even by you earlier.

But that was the premise from which you wrote your "then Aura of Life makes your current hit points unchangeable" argument, was it not?


Because it went out of vogue in MUDs and other early RPG Video Games. Although TBH, I remember most of my 1e groups ignoring the rules on that anyway.

The only place I ever had to put up with "pay to level up" was in the Pool of Radiance CRPG in the late 80s (I think even the later games using the same engine ditched the concept). Absolute don't miss that flavour intrusion of the level abstraction.

[Plaguescarred]

But that was the premise from which you wrote your "then Aura of Life makes your current hit points unchangeable" argument, was it not?It was an extrapolation from his assumption basically. Do you disagree with this premise?

[Coffee_Dragon]

It was an extrapolation from his assumption basically. Do you disagree with this premise?

As I said further up the thread, I acknowledge it is a house rule, since the rules are silent on the matter, but it seems to me to be among the most obvious house rules imaginable. If you put on a belt that boosts your Con to legendary levels, you benefit straight away. If you level up while at full "health", you remain at full "health".

But anyway, you wrote that if what affects MHP affects CHP, then Aura of Life makes you unkillable, to which Arial Black responded (just as I was thinking) that this doesn't follow at all because MHP is constant most of the time anyway and no one even remotely argued that MHP staying constant means CHP cannot change either. When your logic is challenged, turning back and denouncing the premise won't help.

[Plaguescarred]

Constant or not doesn't change the fact that the rules don't say that something that affect MHP also affect CHP, be it to allow or prevent increase or decrease of it.

[odigity]

Also leveling up while dying would revive you if things that affected hit point maximum also affected current hit points. :)

That's clever, though I don't see how it could happen unless all of the following were true:
a) You're only a few XP away from leveling.
b) Your DM lets you level up immediately upon acquiring enough XP.
c) Your DM grants XP for dropping to 0hp. (Which is a novel and reasonable idea, since traumatic experiences do teach and change people.)

[Arial Black]

As I said further up the thread, I acknowledge it is a house rule, since the rules are silent on the matter, but it seems to me to be among the most obvious house rules imaginable. If you put on a belt that boosts your Con to legendary levels, you benefit straight away. If you level up while at full "health", you remain at full "health".

But anyway, you wrote that if what affects MHP affects CHP, then Aura of Life makes you unkillable, to which Arial Black responded (just as I was thinking) that this doesn't follow at all because MHP is constant most of the time anyway and no one even remotely argued that MHP staying constant means CHP cannot change either. When your logic is challenged, turning back and denouncing the premise won't help.

You're correct in your assumption about my post.

Simply put: Plaguescarred's Aura of Life objection doesn't stand up.

So, there are two models: 'changes to MHP have an equal effect on CHP', OR 'changes to MHP have no effect on CHP'.

With the former, there are no problems. The objections that were raised fell away; Aura of Life because by definition MHP stays the same, and 'leveling up when dying' because by definition you cannot do anything to earn XP while you are making death saves. So, no problems.

Meanwhile, with the latter, you suddenly have a wound to heal when you level up, and increasing your Con won't increase your HP even though it is meant to.

There is a reason why CHP changed with MHP in all the editions of D&D: it makes sense and has no problems, while the reverse doesn't make sense and has problems.

Has anyone tweeted JC yet?