Help with Multiclassing after Gunslinger lv5

[DedWards]

I'm trying to get a backup character ready for my current campaign and I'm liking Gunslinger. Unfortunately, after getting Gun Training at level 5, the class features, etc. Seem less than optimal. So I'd like to Multiclass out at level 6, but I can't think of a good class to pick as my second. Can any of you help?

We're currently level 7, nearing level 8, so I thought the level 3 ability Deadly Range of the Sniper (Rogue) could be cool, along with the second Sneak Attack dice acquired at level 3. But I'm not sure this is optimal.


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If psionics are in your campaign, then Marksman is quite good. It lets you choose between a Run n' Gun Style, a Sniper, or a Utility gunner.

I should have said this already, but my group doesn't allow Psionics.

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Thanks to all who gave suggestions / advice.

I think I'll go with Fighter for the levels after 5th. I'll probably end up using Weapon Master.

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So, again, thanks to all that helped me with my choice. I've decided on Human (for the extra Feat); Musket Master {Gunslinger} (Rapid Reload for free at level 1); and Weapon Master {Fighter} (Qualify for Point Blank Master at player level 9, Fighter level 4; and get Weapon Training early). My Feat selection looks something like this:

Level 1: Point-blank Shot
Level 1: Precise Shot [Human]
Level 1: Rapid Reload (Musket) [Musket Master]
Level 3: Rapid Shot
Level 4: Deadly Aim [Musket Master]
Level 5: Weapon Focus (Musket)
Level 6: Snap Shot [Weapon Master]
Level 7: Combat Reflexes
Level 7: Clustered Shots [Weapon Master]
Level 9: Weapon Specialisation (Musket)
Level 9: Point Blank Master [Weapon Master]
Level 11: Snap Shot, Improved
Level 11: Hammer the Gap [Weapon Master]

[TheIronGolem]

I'd go with Slayer. You still get most of what Rogue offers (including one instance of Deadly Range as a talent), but you keep your full BAB and d10 HD.

[stanprollyright]

I'm trying to get a backup character ready for my current campaign and I'm liking Gunslinger. Unfortunately, after getting Gun Training at level 5, the class features, etc. Seem less than optimal. So I'd like to Multiclass out at level 6, but I can't think of a good class to pick as my second. Can any of you help?

We're currently level 7, nearing level 8, so I thought the level 3 ability Deadly Range of the Sniper (Rogue) could be cool, along with the second Sneak Attack dice acquired at level 3. But I'm not sure this is optimal.

Isn't the range on your gun only 20-40ft anyway? Sneak attack and point blank shot are 30ft. You might as well just stay in that range to make touch attack sneak attacks. Also make sure you get a couple oils or a wand of Silence for your gun.

Ranger is pretty nice with gunslinger if you want to be the cowboy-iest cowboy.

If you have good Cha you can go Mysterious Stranger and multiclass into Archaelogist Bard, and don't forget the Prehensile Whip equipment trait :D

Paladin or Oracle would work with Mysterious Stanger too.

[Einselar]

If psionics are in your campaign, then Marksman is quite good. It lets you choose between a Run n' Gun Style, a Sniper, or a Utility gunner.

[DedWards]

I'd go with Slayer. You still get most of what Rogue offers (including one instance of Deadly Range as a talent), but you keep your full BAB and d10 HD.


Isn't the range on your gun only 20-40ft anyway? Sneak attack and point blank shot are 30ft. You might as well just stay in that range to make touch attack sneak attacks. Also make sure you get a couple oils or a wand of Silence for your gun.

Ranger is pretty nice with gunslinger if you want to be the cowboy-iest cowboy.

If you have good Cha you can go Mysterious Stranger and multiclass into Archaelogist Bard, and don't forget the Prehensile Whip equipment trait :D

Paladin or Oracle would work with Mysterious Stanger too.

Thank you both for such timely responses. I really like the idea of Ranger Favoured Enemy bonuses, but after looking through the Combat Style Feat selection, they don't offer what I'd like at that effective level.

I think I'll go with Slayer for the pseudo Favoured Enemy effect (Studied Target); the Sneak Attack bonus damage; and I'll probably turn every Slayer Talent into a Rogue Talent to get Combat Feats, especially at lower Slayer levels.

On a side note, if I decide on the Bolt Ace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/bolt-ace) archetype, because the range suddenly increases to about 80 / 120 ft, depending on the crossbow, I may seriously consider getting Sniper Goggles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/goggles-sniper-goggles).

[Geddy2112]

Since you are wis based, any wis based caster offers some dip synergy and magic power. I personally like the inquisitor gunslinger the best, as your spellcasting is a bit behind to start playing with the full casting kids, and the inquisitor list offers a ton of utility and buffing which fits the gunslinger. A warpriest or hunter runs in a similar vein-if you go hunter consider trading out your animal companion, if you don't, you need boon companion. Cleric, shaman, or even druid are not wrong answers either.

Second ranger or slayer if you want to continue pumping full BAB and just add on support mechanics. Rogue is not bad for evasion and uncanny dodge, although you can get evasion through enough levels of slayer/ranger.

Another option is to dip monk 1-2 levels, adding your WIS to all forms of AC. Since you are dex/wis based, often away from melee, and probably only using light armor as it is, worth considering. I would grab an archtype that drops flurry of blows as it won't do much for you. Having unarmed strike opens up feats(namely style feats) for some tricks, and if you want full BAB unchained monk is an option too.

Last but not least, a fighter dip is never bad for a martial.

[TheFamilarRaven]

How optimal are we talking about here? The Bolt ace archetype for the gunslinger meshes well with the Sniper archetype of the rogue. Plus crossbows fire faster, deal as much damage as a pistol, and have a greater threat range (meaning you get grit back faster).

But there's also the Sniper archetype of the Slayer, which does essentially the same thing. But the Slayer lets you keep your full BaB, as others have said. You get delayed Sneak Attack, but you also get the Studied Target feature, which is enhances the fluff of being a Sniper.

With Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim, and Rapid Reload, you'll be able to pile on the damage. You're looking at 1d8+(dex + deadly aim + pbs) plus sneak attack and a full BaB to eventually have four attacks a round. Plus you can aways spend a grit point to target touch AC for those lower iterative attacks to guarantee a hit.

[DedWards]

Since you are wis based, any wis based caster offers some dip synergy and magic power. I personally like the inquisitor gunslinger the best, as your spellcasting is a bit behind to start playing with the full casting kids, and the inquisitor list offers a ton of utility and buffing which fits the gunslinger. A warpriest or hunter runs in a similar vein-if you go hunter consider trading out your animal companion, if you don't, you need boon companion. Cleric, shaman, or even druid are not wrong answers either.

Second ranger or slayer if you want to continue pumping full BAB and just add on support mechanics. Rogue is not bad for evasion and uncanny dodge, although you can get evasion through enough levels of slayer/ranger.

Another option is to dip monk 1-2 levels, adding your WIS to all forms of AC. Since you are dex/wis based, often away from melee, and probably only using light armor as it is, worth considering. I would grab an archtype that drops flurry of blows as it won't do much for you. Having unarmed strike opens up feats(namely style feats) for some tricks, and if you want full BAB unchained monk is an option too.

Last but not least, a fighter dip is never bad for a martial.

The Monk Dip sounds cool, but I don't see any archetypes that drop Flurry and have much useful that I like (Sensei comes closest).


How optimal are we talking about here? The Bolt ace archetype for the gunslinger meshes well with the Sniper archetype of the rogue. Plus crossbows fire faster, deal as much damage as a pistol, and have a greater threat range (meaning you get grit back faster).

But there's also the Sniper archetype of the Slayer, which does essentially the same thing. But the Slayer lets you keep your full BaB, as others have said. You get delayed Sneak Attack, but you also get the Studied Target feature, which is enhances the fluff of being a Sniper.

With Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim, and Rapid Reload, you'll be able to pile on the damage. You're looking at 1d8+(dex + deadly aim + pbs) plus sneak attack and a full BaB to eventually have four attacks a round. Plus you can aways spend a grit point to target touch AC for those lower iterative attacks to guarantee a hit.

Sniper (Slayer) is looking very nice. Can't believe I forgot about it :|

Point Blank Shot; Deadly Aim; and Rapid Reload will be acquired as part of the 5 Gunslinger levels. I like to build my characters level by level.

Really liking the idea of Silence Oil and Sniper Goggles. I'm tempted to take Musket Master as, with Alchemical Cartridges, I can reload as a free action. With a good enough stealth; invisibility; etc, plus the Oil, I can sneak attack at range with a d12 weapon.

Anyone know of reliable ways for me, as a ranged character, to reliably deny the opponent his DEX to his AC (for sneak attack)? Feint, even with that feat to do it with a ranged weapon, seems wasted as it's only for one attack. Snap Shot and Snap Shot, Improved doesn't help either as while it allows me to threaten and take AoO's with a ranged weapon, I still don't get flanking bonuses.

[TheFamilarRaven]

A common trick to proc Sneak Attack with range is to use Tiny Hut to grant concealment against all creature outside of it. You'll of course need to pick up a wand of it, which is pretty damn expensive at 11k gp, plus Slayers don't get UMD as a skill so if traits are on the table, find one that grants UMD as a class skill, and take the Mysterious Stranger (pretty sure it can stack with Musket Master) archetype to shift your secondary stat from WIS to CHA, or go the path of the Rogue. If the party has a wizard, maybe convince them to cast Invisibility, Greater on you for tough fights. Alternatively, if you have time to set up, maybe you can convince your DM that oils of darkness conceal the muzzle flash from your gun. Apply both silence and darkness oils, set up camo, and fire away.

Work with other party members, if they're the type that likes to work together, I'm sure they'd be interested in setting you up to deal damage.

EDIT: Another thing to note, as long as you successful use a stealth check at least 10ft away from a creature, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately attempt another stealth check (at a -20 penalty) to avoid being spotted.

[DedWards]

Ok people, I've narrowed it down to 4 options:

Fighter:-
Bonus Feats are always welcome. Because this starts at player level 6, I'll be getting a free Combat Feats at every level I gain normal Feats for advancing. Which means I can get Point Blank Master at player level 9 (Fighter level 4).

If I go with Fighter, I'm thinking of taking the Weapon Master archetype to get Weapon Training early.


Ranger:-
This one is good for Favoured Enemy bonuses. Probably take the bonus with Allies for Hunter's Bond as an animal companion that late (player level 9) seems useless... Unless I go mounted (the Horse Lord archetype comes to mind). Should be able to use a wartrained horse until I get the animal companion.


Rogue or Slayer:-
These would be taken for the same reason: Sneak Attack. Rogue gets the sneak attacks faster, but Slayer has pseudo Favoured Enemy bonuses (Studied Target). Both also have a Sniper archetype, which make Bolt Ace a very good option.


Zen-Archer (Monk):-
This one is a little iffy. I get to add WIS to AC, etc. at the cost of not being able to wear armour at all. And the modified Flurry of Blows specifies a Bow, so I won't get to use it. The real draw here is Point Blank Master for free at player level 8 (Zen-Archer level 3).

The WIS ki pool at player level 9 (Monk level 4) opens up a possibility of going Ninja at player level 10. The draw here is, of course Sneak Attack, but also Vanishing Trick.

[DedWards]

A common trick to proc Sneak Attack with range is to use Tiny Hut to grant concealment against all creature outside of it. You'll of course need to pick up a wand of it, which is pretty damn expensive at 11k gp, plus Slayers don't get UMD as a skill so if traits are on the table, find one that grants UMD as a class skill, and take the Mysterious Stranger (pretty sure it can stack with Musket Master) archetype to shift your secondary stat from WIS to CHA, or go the path of the Rogue. If the party has a wizard, maybe convince them to cast Invisibility, Greater on you for tough fights. Alternatively, if you have time to set up, maybe you can convince your DM that oils of darkness conceal the muzzle flash from your gun. Apply both silence and darkness oils, set up camo, and fire away.

Work with other party members, if they're the type that likes to work together, I'm sure they'd be interested in setting you up to deal damage.

EDIT: Another thing to note, as long as you successful use a stealth check at least 10ft away from a creature, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately attempt another stealth check (at a -20 penalty) to avoid being spotted.

Tiny Hut is an awesome work around, though it's VERY expensive to put on a wand.

Traits are available, so getting UMD as a class skill shouldn't be too difficult. Sadly, both Musket Master and Mysterious Stranger replace Gun Training 1, so I can't take both for the CHA to UMD bonus.

If I go with Sneak Attack, the immediate stealth check with the -20 penalty will probably be used often. Thanks for reminding me about it.

[weckar]

Away from sources, but isn't three levels of trench fighter a really good option for gunslingers in general?

[DedWards]

Away from sources, but isn't three levels of trench fighter a really good option for gunslingers in general?

Unfortunately, we have to ask permission to use Adventure Path material. Though, the answer is almost always yes, provided it's not 3rd party stuff.

I have to ask; does Trench Warfare's DEX to damage stack with Gun Training's DEX to damage? Because I don't see anything that says it doesn't, which makes Gunslinger 5; Trench Fighter 3 absolutely bonkers.

[Extra Anchovies]

Unfortunately, we have to ask permission to use Adventure Path material. Though, the answer is almost always yes, provided it's not 3rd party stuff.

I have to ask; does Trench Warfare's DEX to damage stack with Gun Training's DEX to damage? Because I don't see anything that says it doesn't, which makes Gunslinger 5; Trench Fighter 3 absolutely bonkers.

They don't stack, as per this FAQ ruling (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk). If you want to add an ability modifier to a character statistic twice, you have to look for typed bonuses. I like to think of it as creating a new modifier typing for each ability score; Gunslinger's [dexterity] bonus to damage and Trench Fighter's [dexterity] bonus to damage overlap as per the normal stacking rules.

Also, do keep in mind that Trench Fighter is all-but-explicitly for use in a "guns everywhere" setting, which also gives Gunslingers the Gun Training feature at 1st level.

[Geddy2112]

fighter, ranger, rogue, slayer, or monk

Fighter is full BAB and feats like weapon specialization etc are better than studied target, work against everything unlike favored enemy and sneak attack(trickier to pull off with a ranged weapon), etc. For raw killing things, fighter is probably your best muticlass. The other classes offer utility in the form of other skills and class features, but none are going to add to your raw killing power like fighter. However, gunslingers are already really good at doing damage, and while fighter will make you REALLY good at doing damage, you don't get much else(class skills, class features not related to hurting things, etc).

The problem with zen archer is that the first two levels are arguably worse than nilla monk, and it only gets you one level ahead of fighter to get point blank master(which is a good feat, but not a must have). You only need one level of monk for wis to AC, and two nabs evasion. Unchained monk keeps you in full BAB and d10 HD and even though classic monk is 3/4BAB and d8hp, 3 good saves vs 2 from unchained still makes it a decent deal.If you stick to classic monk check out the master of many styles- Crane and snake are very choices to increase your defensive abilities while you shoot people. Overall, monk grabs your best defensive options.

Sneak attack is hard to pull off at range, and it again, just adds more damage which you have no problem doing. In addition to conditions to get it, a fair amount of enemies are resistant or immune. Rogue also offers evasion at second level, a ton of class skills, and the 3rd level of sniper rogue helps get sneak attack at long range. Unchained rogue gives you weapon finesse and dex to damage with a finesse melee weapon at level 3 adding combat utility(as a gunslinger you likely dumped strength). However, it lacks full BAB and weak saves and D8hp offset the defensive boost of evasion. Slayer still offers class skills and ranks, and the sniper archetype for slayer is MUCH better than the rogue variant. Your studied target adds to more than attack and damage, but is never worth your move when you can full round with a gun. If you can activate it before combat, then great but otherwise it is conditional boosting. Sneak attack is more reliable from the sniper slayer, but is still just extra damage. Overall, the rogue offers a lot of utility and evasion, while the slayer gives utility with almost the same killing power as the fighter.

Ranger is also full BAB with skills and utility, and some bonus feats. I would suggest taking an archetype that replaces hunter's bond, and unless you know the general terrain and common enemies, drop favored terrain and/or favored enemy. The freebooter and guide offer a variant of studied target with more damage and no skill boost. Trophy hunter gives you extra grit and the ability to hit touch in 2 firearm range increments, while wild stalker gives uncanny dodge and rage. Divine tracker gives warpriest blessings over a bond, but won't replace favored enemy or terrain. Overall you get generally the same skills and utility as slayer, but your damage is a bit more consistent, although it is almost par.

In Summary, it depends on what you want to add to your gunslinger by multiclassing.

Raw killing power-Fighter 1-15 levels
Defense-Monk 1-2 levels
Utility-Rogue 1-3 levels
Damage and utility-Ranger/Slayer 1-15 levels.

That said, there is room to mix and match.

[DedWards]

Ok, thanks for all the advice / suggestions. Thank you Geddy2112 for putting so much effort into your post.

[TheFamilarRaven]

As an aside. There's actually very few creatures immune to SA in Pathfinder. The only type of creature immune to precision damage are oozes and swarms. The incorporeal and elemental subtypes also happen to be immune. Other than that the protean subtype offers a 50% chance of ignoring a precision damage, and possibly a few other specific creatures that explicitly have the ability.

So unless you know you'll be facing a lot of these enemy types, SA is a good option. Plus you won't be totally shut down anyway if you happen to encounter such a creature.

[Poblobo]

Luring Cavalier works well enough with a gunslinger. I'm considering it for my own gunslinger, alongside fighter

[stanprollyright]

I privately thought Slayer was a garbage class before this thread, but after a second look inspired by y'all I'm convinced that Slayer actually is a good class that will give you most of what you're looking for in one package.

[DedWards]

Luring Cavalier works well enough with a gunslinger.
Yes, it is very good. Trades all those annoying melee bonuses for good ranged abilities. Challenging at range is probably the main draw here.

Weapon Master (Fighter) looks like one of the best for those Fighter levels as they get Weapon Training early (Fighter level 3).


I privately thought Slayer was a garbage class before this thread, but after a second look inspired by y'all I'm convinced that Slayer actually is a good class that will give you most of what you're looking for in one package.

A lot of the hybrid classes look bad at first glance. But once you really look at them and their archetypes, they are actually great classes.

[DedWards]

Added my idea for Feat Selection of my build to the original post.

[weckar]

They don't stack, as per this FAQ ruling (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk). If you want to add an ability modifier to a character statistic twice, you have to look for typed bonuses. I like to think of it as creating a new modifier typing for each ability score; Gunslinger's [dexterity] bonus to damage and Trench Fighter's [dexterity] bonus to damage overlap as per the normal stacking rules.

Also, do keep in mind that Trench Fighter is all-but-explicitly for use in a "guns everywhere" setting, which also gives Gunslingers the Gun Training feature at 1st level.
I forget, is FAQ considered official when it comes to Pathfinder material?