Scaling fights to match group size

[Foxydono]

There are six players in my group (wizard, warlock, druid, paladin, rogue and bard; all level 3). Although it is noisy, the group is fun and get along well. I would like some advice on how to make encounters more of a challange. I could simply add 30% more monsters, but this will make every fight last a lot longer and I prefer quicker fights so there is more room for solving mysteries and roll playing.

Adding health to enemies is another possibility, but this will make fights last longer as well. I could also increase the damage, but with a few good npc rolls and a few bad pc rolls this can be tricky. Especially at lower levels.

The last option I thought of is to make the terrain more difficult or adding some traps. A lot of fighting is out doors, making it really easy for ranged characters.

TLDR: I would like advice on how to make encounters harder without them lasting a lot longer.

[MrStabby]

Have enemies surprise the party. Include buffing spells

Make sure you use darkvision rules correctly, paying attention to the ranges and advantage for shooting at something that can't see you.

Set traps - even tripwires and caltrops can make things harder.

Give enemies consumables - not just healing potions but other potions and scrolls.

Use terrain - shooting from the far side of a ditch or from the top of a wall is good vs a melee party.

[Aembrosia]

There are three great threads on here somewhere i hope someone will link for you, ill do it later tonight when i get to my computer if it doesnt happen in the interim.

Suffice it to say making good encounters is a learned and practiced skill that takes time and looking for help is the first step.

You want a good mix of encounters that showcase the players abillities and some that highlight their weaknesses.

Wish i could be more specific but im at work.

[Tanarii]

How to scale combats for 6 players is already covered in the DMG / Basic Doc.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/DMBasicRulesV05.pdf

p 56 (rules to judge difficulty of encounters start) and p 57 (how to account for party size).

If you don't want to add more monsters, use tougher (ie higher CR) monsters.

Edit: IMO all encounters should already include appropriate terrain, traps, or other challenges to spice things up. But if you look at the document, it tells you various ways to account for those in the difficulty.

Also, it's important to note there's two ways you can use these charts:
1) Start with a budget for the difficulty you want, then pick monsters, size, and other aspects to get to it (building on a budget).
2) Build your encounter, then use the charts to judge the difficulty, then maybe tweak your encounter if it's too easy or hard.

[Foxydono]

Thanks for the advice! I will try to use some buffs, potions or maybe even a magical item to spice things up. If that doesn't solve it maybe a higher cr creature, but I think some minor tweaks will work fine :)

[MrStabby]

Adding "class levels", or rough equivalents is also good.

Goblins can be thematic for the level the PC are at, 6 may still be the number that matches the available space in the room without being too crowded... but why cant one have a fighter level and a couple of them have a level of rogue.

Of course as you are adding abilities you don't need to do it by class but doing so can help to build a sense of a consistent world.

Another thing that can make a big difference to challenge level is an initiative bonus - +2 to an initiative roll just means each combatant is just that little bit more likely to have an extra attack before falling, or to get into a better position and so on.

[Aembrosia]

Before you dive in, if you do, and I hope you do because i believe your games will be better for it, let me tell you that they dont directly answer your question by telling you how to pick better monsters. By the end you'll see that what the monster is matters the least, they pick creatures basically at random as long as they thematically fit.

Okay here they are:

AngryDM on encounter building
http://theangrygm.com/the-angry-guide-to-akicking-combats-part-1-picking-your-enemies/
http://theangrygm.com/the-angry-guide-to-kicka-combats-part-2-battlefields-and-battlefeels/
http://theangrygm.com/the-angry-guide-to-kickass-combats-part-3-lets-make-some-fing-fights-already/

Gfishfunk on encounter building
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497869-Encounter-Design-Philosophy
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497787-Enemy-Design-Philosophy

[Kane0]

Always go with 'more interesting' over 'higher numbers' (including both number of enemies and each enemy's numbers). Focus on terrain, traps, spells and effects, ambushes, enemy types and personality, etc. The goal is to make each fight more engaging rather than more difficult.

If they are really breezing through things though, try this: for every odd number of PCs above 4 add another enemy, for every even number of PCs above 4 make them all a little tougher. That way you don't go overboard on one or the other.

[BW022]

I could simply add 30% more monsters, but this will make every fight last a lot longer and I prefer quicker fights so there is more room for solving mysteries and roll playing.

That is going to be a problem no matter what you do to make the combats tougher. PCs take about 1 minute per turn. NPCs average something like 30 seconds. 6 PCs and 6 NPCs, take about 9 minutes per round. 6 rounds of combat takes say an 45 minutes. Maybe slightly less time at low levels, slightly more at high levels.

Fewer creatures mean less time for the NPCs, but... you typically have to put in more tougher creatures, so they typically take longer to kill (more rounds). Terrain, ships, chases, in a crowded streets, darkness, etc. means characters are less effective (cover, moving, no area spells, etc. and thus less overall damage output) and take longer to kill the enemies.

The best I can come up with:

Have a good number of creatures, but make sure they flee or surrender when half are killed. Don't run combat after it is clear who is going to win.
Have something which limits the time of the combat. A wall coming down, they players are on a moving raft and will be out of range within X rounds, etc.
Have less combat. Don't have random encounters, make sure encounters advance plot.
Let the players dominate. The faster they win the better. Don't waste time trying to make every fight 'epic'. Treat it as something to get through to get back to roleplaying.
Mundane speed ups. Players should be rolling damage at the same time, have spell cards, etc. Use initiative cards, look at software, etc. Give a only 10 seconds to declare and action or else you 'delay'. Have everyone pre-roll 10 sets of initiative, pre-roll for initiative, and have cards or lists pre-setup for each encounter.
Use monsters which are quick to run. Limit spell casters, things with six attacks, grappling, 'nerf' spells, etc. Prep combat encounters with the actions of enemies for the first two rounds.
Limit XP and levels. And magic, spells, etc. High level slows things down with more 'options', thinking, attacks, rolls, saves, and effects.
Occasionally... put in 'epic' fights with more creatures, tougher creatures, and/or in unusual or different places. Just realize that the encounter may run 2-3 hours. Only do this maybe every other month or so.
Look at non-combat initiative encounters. I.e. you are doing things but not fighting -- escaping from a room filling with water, a one-on-one wrestling match, saving people from a burning building, etc. There are typically less options so turns go faster.

[MrStabby]

There is a side question: why do you prefer quick fights? Also what do your players like?

Fights can be fun. They needn't be a drag, even if they are long if they are also fun. if you just don't like to spend time in combat and prefer out of combat activities that is fine. If fights seem a drag then that itself might be something you can fix.

Part of this is a sense of change and progress and the ability to make meaningful choices. Endless swinging away with thew same action every round to chip away HP is boring. Constantly manoeuvring for better positioning, interacting with the environment, prioritising targets, considering lines of fire and escape routes and so on is more engaging. Play your enemies as people fighting for their lives and using every advantage they can find. Make the enemies force difficult choices on the PCs and even long combats can be fun.



If you want tougher combats but still want them quick, it might be worth looking for a shortlist of spells you like to have your enemies use. Spells like fireball are great: simple and quick - one damage roll and a save per PC caught. This can do several attacks worth of damage in one roll, is not going to leave anyone bitter for being picked on and by lowering HP it can put a fight a bit more on edge. You want to avoid complicated conditions that draw attention from the PCs or have complex saves and stuff (so maybe less of the bigby's hand).

[Mirakk]

I'm running a similarly sized group as yours, and I've found that tweaking the encounters the way the DMG suggests has provided an adequate challenge. That said, here are a few things I've found to help.

1. Don't use 1-2 monsters, even if they're very powerful. The dogpile just makes it really anti-climatic, and when you slap around your PCs with them it will feel like they're about to get one shotted. One person feels in mortal danger, and the others feel comparatively safe. You need larger groups, or for smaller encounters, you need to combine the encounter with another hazard for full effect. Gargoyles in a room with censors filled with Burning Othur (Burnt Othur Fumes Poison), Clockwork Hunters with Nets in a room rapidly filling with water, an area with high winds to make ranged attacks challenging etc. Making the encounter interesting is often more important than the difficulty.


2. Have a buffer of some kind. Last encounter was a little too challenging? Oh hey look a corpse. Searching it reveals he's got some berries in his satchel that replenish HP like goodberries, or he's got a potion etc.


3. Group initiative for monsters. Seriously. Having 7 players is hard enough, adding 5-6 monsters to that order means you're spending way too much time each round on initiative.


4. Don't be afraid to just count a series of traps or puzzles as an encounter for XP's sake. They're still overcoming a challenge, and in the case of traps, potentially using resources. The DMG didn't list challenge XP for traps, which really was a surprise. Just have to eyeball it.

I hope this helps.

[Tanarii]

4. Don't be afraid to just count a series of traps or puzzles as an encounter for XP's sake. They're still overcoming a challenge, and in the case of traps, potentially using resources. The DMG didn't list challenge XP for traps, which really was a surprise. Just have to eyeball it.that's because you're only suppose to reward XP for things that use approximately the same resources as an encounter of equivalent difficulty. Stand-alone traps almost never do that, unless they're gotcha traps that the players can't find before they go off.

Personally I don't have a problem with gotcha traps. It means you lack what used to be called "player skill" (ie sufficient paranoia) if you set them off. But that kind of thing is out of vogue these days. That's why Perception was introduction, then take 10/20 for perception, and now passive perception. So out of combat traps, unless they present a challenge that uses resources AFTER you know they are there, don't qualify for giving XP.

[Gastronomie]

Always go with 'more interesting' over 'higher numbers' (including both number of enemies and each enemy's numbers). Focus on terrain, traps, spells and effects, ambushes, enemy types and personality, etc. The goal is to make each fight more engaging rather than more difficult.This pretty much sums up my thoughts on this issue.

AngryDM's website has a lot of information, but some personal ideas:
Enemy casters that buff and do field control. Even better when they combine for maximum effect, like first using Web and then using Repelling Blast to shoot the PCs into the area in the next turn.
Invisible enemy (perhaps using Greater Invisibility). Even better if it's a spellcaster who can buff, shoot AoEs, and do other nasty stuff (if it's via Greater Invisibility, consider allowing him to concentrate on two spells at once, or give him a magic item that has that effect - albeit with a cost, if the players are to take it later). See how the party tries to solve this problem. There are actually a lot of ways to get around it, but the players get to feel creative and special when finding out their own solution.
Basilisk. A single pet Basilisk on the enemy side is enough to scare the s*** out of the majority of adventurers, even at high levels. Cockatrices, if it's for a lower level party.
Similarly, Rust Monsters, Gray Oozes and Black Puddings.
Gas Spores (or whatever fits into the battle terrain) aimlessly floating around the battlefield, moving in a random direction every turn but doing nothing else. Archers in the party can use them to bombard the enemies with fatal venom. Enemy archers can do the same.
Gibbering Mouthers and other enemies that do terrain control.
Monsters with class levels, especially humanoids. Top candidates I enjoy using as a DM are Barbarian, Bard, Rogue, and Sorcerer. Their mechanics are simple and attractive at the same time (tanking, buffing, sneaking+striking, and controlling/blasting). I especially like Assassins, and Sorcerers with Careful Spell.
Simply, creating distances, walls, and difficult terrain. It makes combat more tactical. Even more tactical if the adventurers can interact with the terrain. Even more tactical if you're doing this at a real-life table and you create a 3-D dungeon with Lego or something. It's really, really fun.

[Demonslayer666]

There are six players in my group (wizard, warlock, druid, paladin, rogue and bard; all level 3). Although it is noisy, the group is fun and get along well. I would like some advice on how to make encounters more of a challange. I could simply add 30% more monsters, but this will make every fight last a lot longer and I prefer quicker fights so there is more room for solving mysteries and roll playing.

Adding health to enemies is another possibility, but this will make fights last longer as well. I could also increase the damage, but with a few good npc rolls and a few bad pc rolls this can be tricky. Especially at lower levels.

The last option I thought of is to make the terrain more difficult or adding some traps. A lot of fighting is out doors, making it really easy for ranged characters.

TLDR: I would like advice on how to make encounters harder without them lasting a lot longer.

Increasing the CR is the basic way to do it. Sometimes I increase HP if the fight is ending way too fast.

Donjon has a good generator that allows you to adjust the difficulty. It can give you some basic encounter ideas.
http://donjon.bin.sh/5e/random/#type=encounter;n_pc=6;level=3;difficulty=any;envi ronment=Underdark

Additionally, you can plan to ambush the party from a good vantage point. Or use hit and run tactics.

I've had the party blow an encounter out of the water just because the monsters rolled terrible on initiative and took a couple rounds to close. It barely used any resources. Timing and distance make a big difference.