Doctor Strange

[Androgeus]

Saw this earlier today, and thought it was pretty good. Wondering what the rest of the playground thought.

[Cikomyr]

Isnt it going out next week?

[Anonymouswizard]

Isnt it going out next week?

No, it's out already (here in the UK at least).

Hopefully seeing it tomorrow, so I'll give my thoughts then. As I'm not a massive fan of mister Cucumberpatch I hope I can be objective in my opinions.

[Olinser]

No, it's out already (here in the UK at least).

Hopefully seeing it tomorrow, so I'll give my thoughts then. As I'm not a massive fan of mister Cucumberpatch I hope I can be objective in my opinions.

I've been pretty sold on Cabbagepatchkid since his appearance on Sherlock.

Early reviews have been almost universally positive, so it definitely looks like a must see for me.

[Fri]

Going to watch it in the weekends most likely, but for the moment.

Here.

http://orteil.dashnet.org/randomgen/?gen=eydbh8ei

Benedict Cumberbatch name generator for your leisure :smallbiggrin:

[ben-zayb]

Finally watched it!

The visuals were stunning and really a step up from most Marvel films that came before, no doubt about it. I really like their own take on the bizarre and trippy aspects of the source material. I also loved Cumberbatch here, and I don't even watch Sherlock. The narrative feels too familiar for my liking, and they could've utilized Mikkelsen more. By the way, wasn't Strange supposed to be all-chanty and what not?

Unlike Civil War that felt dragging at times, this one left me feeling it ended rather abruptly, probably because the "action scenes" are so closely woven with one another and so unlike what I've seen from past CBMs.

The climax is less of a "big boss fight" and more of a "Wizards uses MacGuffin, outsmarts the big bad, and casts a spell to end the encounter LOL" moment

Oh, and other than Inception, Batman Begins, and Iron Man, some parts also reminded me of Source Code.


PS: For post credit scene 1, why does already Thor know Odin was missing, when last we see Loki, he was disguised as him?

[Hopeless]

Regarding post credit scene...
I believe Thor was exiled to Ragnorak upon his return to Asgard, he may not know Loki was posing as Odin but was aware his father was missing.
I suspect Hela was responsible for exiling him after Loki was double cross by his daughter but all of this is unsupported hearsay as the next Thor movie is apparently involving a remake of Planet Hulk replacing another wielder of Mjolnir with Thor so this is only a suspicion at this stage!

[Olinser]

Finally watched it!

The visuals were stunning and really a step up from most Marvel films that came before, no doubt about it. I really like their own take on the bizarre and trippy aspects of the source material. I also loved Cumberbatch here, and I don't even watch Sherlock. The narrative feels too familiar for my liking, and they could've utilized Mikkelsen more. By the way, wasn't Strange supposed to be all-chanty and what not?

Unlike Civil War that felt dragging at times, this one left me feeling it ended rather abruptly, probably because the "action scenes" are so closely woven with one another and so unlike what I've seen from past CBMs.

The climax is less of a "big boss fight" and more of a "Wizards uses MacGuffin, outsmarts the big bad, and casts a spell to end the encounter LOL" moment

Oh, and other than Inception, Batman Begins, and Iron Man, some parts also reminded me of Source Code.


PS: For post credit scene 1, why does already Thor know Odin was missing, when last we see Loki, he was disguised as him?

I'm assuming somebody has realized its Loki impersonating Odin. Which leads to the logical conclusion that Odin is missing.

[Anonymouswizard]

So I just saw the film, and my reaction?

It was significantly better than Civil War, because it wasn't trying beyond it's reach, and did not try to set up following films and so could do it's own thing. I do like that they cut out the chants for magic to allow for faster action scenes, and I suspect that if we get Doctor Strange II the chants will be back for longer spells. The effects were amazing, and there were a couple of legitimately funny jokes. I liked Cumberbatch as Dr Strange, although my favourite character by far is Mordo.

So, I love the idea of the Mirror Dimension, it explains why normal people (and Thor) had no idea there were magicians there. I also like the nods towards Thor's 'your ancestors called it magic, you call it science' while still keeping the magic feel magical with the whole 'think of it like this if it makes you feel better'.

Not particularly fond of The Ancient One, but I see what the film was going for and I respect that, and her use of the Dark Dimension leaves open implications about what could happen.

I loved the climax, it screamed 'wizard' to me. It was building up to a great big action climax, and then the main character instead has the audacity to blackmail a god into leaving his dimension alone. It worked for the film, and I think taking Dormamu out of the picture so that Mordo can be MCU Strange's archenemy was a great move, because of how much more interesting the flawed, human villain is.

It feels a lot like Mordo wants to be a hero and is trying to be one, and in another story his philosophy would allow him to be. I even get the impression that the character is happy to serve, he just has uncompromising morals that can get a little weird (see the second post credits scene), but I want to see more of him and I can understand where he's coming from. He is also, in some ways, the Thor to Strange's Loki, and I really want to see the relationship between the characters develop.

My verdict? 95%, it's not perfect but it manages to be both an enjoyable fantasy film and a fun superhero film (at least more of a superhero film than Civil War was). Would I see it again? Yes, the action was great, with the magic being both consistent (although I had to do a bit of thinking to extrapolate some rules) and blending in with the martial arts well.

[Cikomyr]

Hmmm...

Sad. Since Civil War is my favourite marvel movie because its reaching so high in my opinion.

[Anonymouswizard]

Hmmm...

Sad. Since Civil War is my favourite marvel movie because its reaching so high in my opinion.

Opinions will vary, I don't like Civil War because, to me, it doesn't feel like a Marvel Movie. I know Civil War is well liked, but for various reasons I just can't like it (one of them being that as far as I'm concerned Iron Man was right and the film hinting Steve was right was annoying). Say what you like about making stuff darker and edgier, but at the end of the day if I'm seeing a superhero film I expect a triumph (which even Watchmen has), not for the film to feel like it's ending halfway through.

Now, there's nothing wrong with loving Civil War, there's a lot to like and as a film it's pretty good, it just falls flat for me. I loved the two scenes with Spiderman, and that was about it.

Now, Doctor Strange isn't perfect, but I never got the feeling like it was setting up for the next film other than 'we need to establish another infinity stone', which was done in a single line and so I could enjoy the narrative. It does nowhere near as much as Civil War does, but that's half the reason I like it more (the other half? It's a good Urban Fantasy movie, which we see so little of, and the Mirror Dimension is a great idea). I suggest you form your own opinion, I certainly did with Civil War.

[Leewei]

Hmmm...

Sad. Since Civil War is my favourite marvel movie because its reaching so high in my opinion.

I enjoyed Civil War quite a bit. I just liked most other movies in the Avengers continuity more.

[Hopeless]

Just been to watch this!

I still think the Thor scene is set somewhere within the Thor 3 movie

Amusing absolutely loved the cloak of levitation!

Interesting that the artefact or relic chooses the user rather than vice versa!

Strange Sherlocked Dormammu! god I loved that!

So we now have confirmed the Eye of Agamotto is the Time Stone Infinity Stone!

So where's Warlock sorry Magus?

On the whole enjoyed the movie the special effects need to be seen to be believed, but still wondering if this would be better in 3d?

Has anyone watched this in 3d yet?

And why a week later for others?

[ben-zayb]

It's more like the Eye of Agamotto contains, rather than is, the moebiusinfinity stone, which is similar to how the Tesseract and the Scepter contain their own infinity stones.

[Kato]

Just saw it.

Pretty good, certainly one of the best Marvel's I dare say. Especially the visuals got me and it's usually hard to do that for me. Inception might have been a while ago but their city shifting didn't impress me back then, but Strange does it great and incorporates it into their fight scenes. Even the early "drug trip" worked for me which is rare.

Strange was good, though I feel maybe a bit too funny (?). Then again, I don't know him that well. But he just was a bit too much... Tony?

Overall there are few things I can complain about. Definitely worth seeing, imo.

Missed the second after credit scene but oh well...


Maybe three minor notes...
Mordo seems to diverge quite a bit from the original. Which I'm fine with but still.

Great way to take on Dormammu. Especially after the fun to watch reverse time fight scene.

Ancient One went down like a... Seriously, one stab and you lose all your power? Strange was stabbed in the heart and went on, woman... Maybe she was just tired and wanted it to be over but the way they did it it seemed... lacking.

[Eldan]

Just saw it.

Pretty good, certainly one of the best Marvel's I dare say. Especially the visuals got me and it's usually hard to do that for me. Inception might have been a while ago but their city shifting didn't impress me back then, but Strange does it great and incorporates it into their fight scenes. Even the early "drug trip" worked for me which is rare.

Strange was good, though I feel maybe a bit too funny (?). Then again, I don't know him that well. But he just was a bit too much... Tony?

Overall there are few things I can complain about. Definitely worth seeing, imo.

Missed the second after credit scene but oh well...


Maybe three minor notes...
Mordo seems to diverge quite a bit from the original. Which I'm fine with but still.

Great way to take on Dormammu. Especially after the fun to watch reverse time fight scene.

Ancient One went down like a... Seriously, one stab and you lose all your power? Strange was stabbed in the heart and went on, woman... Maybe she was just tired and wanted it to be over but the way they did it it seemed... lacking.


Pretty much all my impressions. The visual effects are stunning and awesome. See it in 3D.

Strange being a bit too Tony... this is the first marvel movie where I thought it could have stood having fewer jokes. It was pretty dark, for Marvel. Strange's despair and anger, the deaths, it felt more visceral than dark scenes in the other movies, too. The slapstick, especially with the cloak, took a bit away from that. Though the cloak is also one of the funniest marvel characters period.

Dormammu... meh? How can an ancient multiverse-conquering godlike being from outside reality not get around a trick like that? Now, I loved the scene itself and the way he was defeated by pure wizard munchkinry. But he wasn't that impressive, other than sheer sizue.

That's enough negatives. Let's state some positives. Great acting, great pacing (it felt really short, not a scene wasted), unparalelled visuals, felt much more creative and brought a bit of a fresh wind to the marvel formula (though Guardians did that too.) Top 3 Marvel movie contender.

But then, I'm also the only person in the universe who didn't like Captain America: First Avenger, hated Antman and thought Thor 2 was good.

[RossN]

I loved it. I'm only vaguely familiar with the source material but it was a lot of fun and Cumberbatch was predictably great, as where the supporting cast (including the Cloak of Levitation :smallbiggrin:). Rachel McAdams (who I have loved since Mean Girls) felt a bit wasted in a fairly standard love interest role but her charm and performance really made the most of it anyway.

What really fell like a breath of fresh air was that the film was unafraid to embrace it's fantasy side. The original Thor film sort of hedged its bets with the magic and science are interelated theme but ever since then it has felt like the films have been strongly stressing the sci-fi (for instance Odin's clunky 'we are not gods' speech in the second Thor film just in case anyone had somhow forgotten the Asgardians were bearded aliens.) Doctor Strange brought back a little mysticism and I love it.

[Ramza00]

I also loved Cumberbatch here, and I don't even watch Sherlock

You really should watch Sherlock

[thirsting]

--
On the whole enjoyed the movie the special effects need to be seen to be believed, but still wondering if this would be better in 3d?

Has anyone watched this in 3d yet?
--

I usually try to watch everything in 2D due to some earlier bad experiences with the 3D glasses and eyesores/headaches, but was glad I had to make an exception this time. For once I can honestly recommend watching it in 3D. The visuals were such a big part of the experience in this one, not just a meaningless gimmick.

[Eldan]

Imagine someone having a Matrix fight scene, without slo-mo, but plus magic, on a set that is inception meets Escher. In 3D.

It's glorious. Do it.

[Anonymouswizard]

I usually try to watch everything in 2D due to some earlier bad experiences with the 3D glasses and eyesores/headaches, but was glad I had to make an exception this time.

The big problem I have with seeing anything in 3D is that I have a couple of eye problems, one of which leads to me mainly looking through one eye. This means that, almost without fail, whenever I see something in 3D it's just a more expensive version of 2D.

Anyway, 3D is a silly gimmick that doesn't work. I saw the 2D showing and I'm happy, no having to watch the film with glasses over my glasses.

[Kato]

The slapstick, especially with the cloak, took a bit away from that. Though the cloak is also one of the funniest marvel characters period.


Yeah, that one scene was a bit... over the top. Kind of crushed the tension there.


As for 3D... saw it in it and... I can't say I really cared for it? Maybe I need the comparison... I loved the visuals but I didn't fell like the 2D was essential to it. Then again, I have hardly seen a movie where I cared for 3D.

[Kantaki]

Dormammu... meh? How can an ancient multiverse-conquering godlike being from outside reality not get around a trick like that? Now, I loved the scene itself and the way he was defeated by pure wizard munchkinry. But he wasn't that impressive, other than sheer sizue.


I would guess he can't deal with Strange’s timeloop because A) his powers are mostly death destruction related* and B) the time manipulation was caused with a infinity stone, which are pretty high up on the powerscale themselves as far as I understand.

*Okay, there is the whole immortality deal, but the way I understood it that was because time doesn't flow in his realm.

Great movie, watching it in 3D was definitely worth it.

[GloatingSwine]

Dormammu... meh? How can an ancient multiverse-conquering godlike being from outside reality not get around a trick like that? Now, I loved the scene itself and the way he was defeated by pure wizard munchkinry. But he wasn't that impressive, other than sheer sizue..

I think the point is that Dormammu had literally never experienced time occurring before. He was as conceptually unprepared for it as Strange was for magic when he first experienced it.

I think it's better they did present him as a true outside context problem though. It made for a dramatic resolution that wasn't about whose magic punches were better. (Luke Cage could have benefited from this wisdom)

[Ramza00]

Dormammu... meh? How can an ancient multiverse-conquering godlike being from outside reality not get around a trick like that? Now, I loved the scene itself and the way he was defeated by pure wizard munchkinry. But he wasn't that impressive, other than sheer sizue.
Response to Dormammu
Dormammu is a non corporeal being. What motivates him and drives him, and what annoys him can be completely different than a human. Think of Dormammu as an it.

Put another way do not anthropomorphize Dormammu, even though he is a talking head treat him more like one of the Fey from mythology or a Lovecraftian Cthulu type being.

But lets be honest, if someone started singing the song that never ends would you not banish him from your realm and promise never ever to come near his planet / realm?

This is the song that never ends
It just goes on and on my friends
Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was
And will continue singing it forever just because...

This is the song that never ends
It just goes on and on my friends
Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was
And will continue singing it forever just because...

How long can you last if you are a being that never ever dies. You would surely make that bargain :smallyuk:

In fact I am pretty sure they are going to change this detail in HISHE (How it should have ended) replace Strange's speech with this is the song that never ends...

[Fri]

Watched it, loved it, thinking to rewatch it in 3d since it'd must be a trip (first time I'm actually ever considering this).

There's a disappointing amount of punching in a movie about wizards though. There's a lot of crazy wizard magic, but I wish they do even more crazy teleporting around and less wizards punching/stabbing each others with magic swords. Even blasting each others with ranged spells would be more satisfying.

Also, my head canon is that the finale happen for billions of time, for thousands of years, if not more, from dormamu's perception, and we just get the abridged version. Btw, question since I kinda forgot/might've missed it.

Why did strange had to go to dormamu's realm, instead of continue fighting the mook wizards, which should be considered easier than beating an actual god?

[Ramza00]

Why did strange had to go to dormamu's realm, instead of continue fighting the mook wizards, which should be considered easier than beating an actual god?

It is not clear but

It seems that Kaecilius and his group physical bodies are immortal unless you also were connected to the Dark Dimension. (Their astral bodies can be killed though, and when the astral body dies their physical body also dies.) The ancient one may be able to kill Kaecilius after his mid movie powerup, since they made their pact with Dormammu (they got the dark eyes, also whenever Kaecilius or the Ancient One uses the dark dimension power you see a small imprint of the Vishanti on their forehead), but after the mid movie powerup it is not clear if anybody else can defeat Kaecilius via killing them.

Kaecilius and company also seem the ability to manipulate the real world somewhat like the mirror dimension but the effect is much weaker. That said Kaecilius who was trapped inside a wall during the reverse time, was able to warp the wall and then break out of it. He then did an attack similar to the mirror dimension but it was more of a shockwave instead of a material warping.

With this shockwave he stopped the reversal of time and the time became more like a time stop. Him and his two supporters were then able to walk and move about freely during this time stop effect.

-------

When Strange is in Dormammu realm he is only effecting his own body time. While Kaecilius and such can stop being subjected to external time, what happens with someone internal time while subjected by the Time Infinity Stone seems to be different.

[Hopeless]

I'm head canoning that Strange employed either the same humming that Batman used to stay awake in that Justice League episode or he made Dormammu watch the Smurfs or the Kardashians in a never-ending loop until he was physically sick of both!😎👿

[Anonymouswizard]

There's a disappointing amount of punching in a movie about wizards though. There's a lot of crazy wizard magic, but I wish they do even more crazy teleporting around and less wizards punching/stabbing each others with magic swords. Even blasting each others with ranged spells would be more satisfying.

Eh, I liked it. They established that teleporting took a decent amount of time and so wasn't useful in combat except to flee, and so shifting the mirror dimension took it's place. The magic swords were also more interesting than energy blasts, which I've seen 207 times before. These wizards aren't D&D wizards, I was act happy that magic was made less 'western' than it was in the comics.


Also, my head canon is that the finale happen for billions of time, for thousands of years, if not more, from dormamu's perception, and we just get the abridged version. Btw, question since I kinda forgot/might've missed it.

Why did strange had to go to dormamu's realm, instead of continue fighting the mook wizards, which should be considered easier than beating an actual god?

My theory is that stopping the time reversal made Strange lose control of it, so he thought 'is I'm going to die I might as well troll the dark god while I'm at it'.

[RossN]

Eh, I liked it. They established that teleporting took a decent amount of time and so wasn't useful in combat except to flee, and so shifting the mirror dimension took it's place. The magic swords were also more interesting than energy blasts, which I've seen 207 times before. These wizards aren't D&D wizards, I was act happy that magic was made less 'western' than it was in the comics.

I liked it too, but at the same time it seemed like a bit of a crutch, like the movie felt it had to throw in a lot of kicking and punching because it was a superhero movie. I might have liked more variety in the fights - not necessarily flinging around fireballs but something a little different to signify the use of magic - rapidly aging people or using astral bodies to 'possess' people or something like that.

I was very surprised that the astral body fight in the hospital didn't go that way.

[lovablepal]

I just hope it's still showing next week. I don't have time to watch it yet.

[GloatingSwine]

Why did strange had to go to dormamu's realm, instead of continue fighting the mook wizards, which should be considered easier than beating an actual god?

Turns out it actually wasn't. He didn't continue fighting the mook wizards because they were handing him his ass when he tried. There was no path to victory continuing to attempt to fight them, but he realised he had at least one thing he could try against Dormammu, based on the properties he knew about Dormammu and the tools he had available.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I just hope it's still showing next week. I don't have time to watch it yet.

I think you can safely bet on a Marvel movie having an extended stay at the Cineplex.

[Kato]

Turns out it actually wasn't. He didn't continue fighting the mook wizards because they were handing him his ass when he tried. There was no path to victory continuing to attempt to fight them, but he realised he had at least one thing he could try against Dormammu, based on the properties he knew about Dormammu and the tools he had available.


I'm not entirely sure... where they supposed to be immortal? :smallconfused: I mean, they talked about D granting them immortality. But then the one guy got killed in astral form. But no others died after the ritual, I think... so did he confront him because they were immortal and this was REALLY poorly conveyed?

That said, they certainly were very powerful and this seems like... a better way to handle things? Well, it worked, anyway.

[Lord of the Helms]

I'm not entirely sure... where they supposed to be immortal? :smallconfused: I mean, they talked about D granting them immortality. But then the one guy got killed in astral form. But no others died after the ritual, I think... so did he confront him because they were immortal and this was REALLY poorly conveyed?

That said, they certainly were very powerful and this seems like... a better way to handle things? Well, it worked, anyway.

Keep in mind this was, basically, the first day Strange was in actual wizard combat. Kaecilius presmably had years of experience on him and probably an edge power-wise due to his drawing on Dormammu's power. He had just killed the Ancient One and had killed Wong before Strange reversed time, both of them (far) more experienced sorcerers than himself, and was pretty much consistently shown to be the better fighter compared to Strange. "Bargaining" with Dormammu via time loop trolling really was easier than taking Kaecilius head on.

[BRC]

I'm not entirely sure... where they supposed to be immortal? :smallconfused: I mean, they talked about D granting them immortality. But then the one guy got killed in astral form. But no others died after the ritual, I think... so did he confront him because they were immortal and this was REALLY poorly conveyed?

That said, they certainly were very powerful and this seems like... a better way to handle things? Well, it worked, anyway.


The Ancient One used Dormammu's power to become Ageless (Which is different than Immortal).

Once Earth was fully absorbed into the Dark Dimension, everybody would have been "Immortal", because the Dark Dimension is timeless.

The Zealots were experienced sorcerers, boosted by Dormammu's power, which made them more than a match for any of the other sorcerers in a straight fight, but they were pretty clearly Mortal.

[Kato]

So, I know we're nitpicking here but...


Strange fought three of them at once and survived. Heck, he killed one. Okay, maybe he got lucky and they underestimated him, but he did. And there are much more, more experienced sorcerers like him.
I don't have a problem with Strange going for Dormammu, but if we discuss how much of a danger the zealots are, we need to consider they were not "that" much more powerful evidently. Unless we want to put his schievements down to Strange's main character bonus which would be kind of lame.

I mean, I buy the bit about them being probably more powerful than anyone but the ancient one but they weren't that more powerful from what we saw of the on screen.

[Hopeless]

When Dr Strange reversed time, Kaecilius and his people had successfully destroyed the Hong Kong branch who had plenty of people easily superior to Strange & Mordo.
The only edge Strange had was the Cloak of Levitation and the Eye of Agamotto which he used to bring back Wong before confronting Dormammu because that entity had no comprehension about time given its residence is supposed to be outside time's influence... well until someone introduced him to it!

[Fri]

Yeah, basically I wish they show better how dangerous the zealots are, if that's their intention. I mean, your explanation makes sense, but I wish they just show it better that they're like, extra dangerous wizards and not just mooks. Since most of the destruction they do is off screen.

[BRC]

Yeah, basically I wish they show better how dangerous the zealots are, if that's their intention. I mean, your explanation makes sense, but I wish they just show it better that they're like, extra dangerous wizards and not just mooks. Since most of the destruction they do is off screen.

I think they did enough? Strange never really beat them in a straight fight, he used situational trickery, which is both more fun to watch ,and unreliable.

That said, I agree. If they could wipe out a whole sanctum full of Sorcerers more experienced than Strange, and Strange was able to hold his own against them, that implies that either they had some superweapon they used up against the Sanctum, or that the other, more-experienced sorcerers, were all chumps compared to Strange, Wong, and Mordo.

But, for the purposes of that scene, it was clear that Strange couldn't expect to win that fight, especially since his rewind spell was broken before the sanctum itself was fixed, so they had already essentially lost.

[Douglas]

I think they did enough? Strange never really beat them in a straight fight, he used situational trickery, which is both more fun to watch ,and unreliable.

That said, I agree. If they could wipe out a whole sanctum full of Sorcerers more experienced than Strange, and Strange was able to hold his own against them, that implies that either they had some superweapon they used up against the Sanctum, or that the other, more-experienced sorcerers, were all chumps compared to Strange, Wong, and Mordo.

But, for the purposes of that scene, it was clear that Strange couldn't expect to win that fight, especially since his rewind spell was broken before the sanctum itself was fixed, so they had already essentially lost.
Yeah, going into the final fight, my impression was that Strange had one special trick (the time reversal spell) but was otherwise outclassed. He'd been fighting these people for much of the movie, and always was barely holding his own, winning through bizarre special circumstances (the full body binding suit of auto-win?), or fleeing frantically. He hadn't had any time or character development to improve his combat skills since then, so he needed something other than a straight fight to win.

On another subject, of course Thor has a Mug of Endless Beer.:smallamused:

Final post-credits scene:
Who was that guy Mordo attacked? Was he the guy who uses magic to walk? I don't think so, but I can't think of any other candidates, and I wasn't paying much attention to magic-walking guy's appearance in his one-off conversation with Strange early in the movie.

[Erys]

Final post-credits scene:
Who was that guy Mordo attacked? Was he the guy who uses magic to walk? I don't think so, but I can't think of any other candidates, and I wasn't paying much attention to magic-walking guy's appearance in his one-off conversation with Strange early in the movie.

That is who that was.

Was it a time spell, or was it simply the time gem allowing him access to its power?

Probably a bit of both.

[Aotrs Commander]

Went to see it today.

I rather liked it, personally; dunno what the general impression from other folk is...!

My knowledge of Doctor Strange is very limited, though - basically only when he's shown up as a guest star in cartoons, so I can't really pass judgement on how like to the comics were or anything.

But I thought he looked the part, certainly.

(I liked that they apparently went "well, people think capes are a bt silly apparently now, but we need a cape, so dammit, let's just go all out with it!)




Final post-credits scene:

There was ANOTHER scene? Frag dammit!

[GloatingSwine]

Was it a time spell, or was it simply the time gem allowing him access to its power?

Probably a bit of both.

Definitely a bit of both. There was a spell in the book that used the Eye of Agamotto, so someone figured out how to access some part of the time stone's power using magic.



My knowledge of Doctor Strange is very limited, though - basically only when he's shown up as a guest star in cartoons, so I can't really pass judgement on how like to the comics were or anything.


There hasn't been much of "Doctor Strange learning the ropes" in comics. In the comics he's the guy you call if Cthulhu needs to be put back to bed, he doesn't regularly show up for mundane problems where the fabric of reality isn't at stake (he's one of the most powerful Marvel characters, basically.)

[Erys]

Why did strange had to go to dormamu's realm, instead of continue fighting the mook wizards, which should be considered easier than beating an actual god?

He went to Dormamu because he could not push time backwards any further to stop the destruction of the last sanctum. Since he could not stop it, even if they defeated the mook wizards they would have lost once time resumed- so he thought outside the box to save the realm.

[Aotrs Commander]

[spoiler]There hasn't been much of "Doctor Strange learning the ropes" in comics. In the comics he's the guy you call if Cthulhu needs to be put back to bed, he doesn't regularly show up for mundane problems where the fabric of reality isn't at stake (he's one of the most powerful Marvel characters, basically.)

But apparenty, he's completely powerless to save old women hit by entirely mundane bullets, however...

(Not "is away doing important things during the time frame" or something, just "can't." And if the Eye of Aggamoto actually does what it does in the movies in the comics, that just becomes even more ridiculous.)

[GloatingSwine]

But apparenty, he's completely powerless to save old women hit by entirely mundane bullets, however...

(Not "is away doing important things during the time frame" or something, just "can't." And if the Eye of Aggamoto actually does what it does in the movies in the comics, that just becomes even more ridiculous.)


**** no. The absolute most fundamental law of Marvel reality is that Peter Parker must suffer. Nobody can break that one.

(The Eye of Agamotto is different in comics, it dispels illusions, reveals disguises, views past events, tracks physical and spiritual entities, weakens demons, and mostly acts a bit more eyelike than just being a fancy holder for the Time gem.)

[ben-zayb]

The idea that the Eye of Agamotto is thr MCU's Time Stone container must have been heavily inspired by Agamotto's Moebius Stone (https://marvel.com/universe/Moebius_Stone).


Oh, and Doctor Strange being all that powerful is the least of Marvel's absurdities when you have freakin Reed Richards. Seriously.
EDIT: Oh, and of course Dr. Doom. Did I mention that he made Stephen his b-word?

[Spamotron]

The idea that the Eye of Agamotto is thr MCU's Time Stone container must have been heavily inspired by Agamotto's Moebius Stone (https://marvel.com/universe/Moebius_Stone).


Oh, and Doctor Strange being all that powerful is the least of Marvel's absurdities when you have freakin Reed Richards. Seriously.
EDIT: Oh, and of course Dr. Doom. Did I mention that he made Stephen his b-word?

I imagine that when Strange inevitably loses the Time Stone in Avengers: Infinity War the Eye of Agamotto might be revealed to have those kinds of powers just because its so iconic to him. Something like the Eye keeping the Stone contained suppressing its innate powers.

[Douglas]

There was ANOTHER scene? Frag dammit!
It's a Marvel movie. Don't assume there's nothing left to see until the screen goes dark and the lights come back on.

Saw it yesterday in 3D, really liked it. Lots of good action, interesting story, great humor, and I thought the way the climax got resolved was especially well done - not at all your typical action sequence. As for the 3D, it felt really natural, not any kind of gimmick - it was just there, as if everything being 3D is just normal, and it worked really well for me. When a good visual effect came up, I could focus on that rather than it being in 3D, even though the 3D was part of the visual effect, and there were some quite good visuals to be seen.

[Dragonexx]

Loved the movie. Great action scenes. Beautiful visuals that do justice to the concept of a reality warping. And a hilariously awesome defeat of Dormammu via time loop munchkinry (time magic too op, plz nerf). Ancient one was interesting, and they make her talent and skill really noticible. Dormammu wasn't really what I was expecting appearance wise, but being a multi-dimensional abstract entity, I suppose he can look like whatever he wants.

Also, I feel Strange's victory is justified. Throughout the movie we see that he constantly thinks outside the box, and challenges the rules that magicians play by. Also, it's a nice twist with him and mordo, where the hero is the one who disagrees with the way magic's been done and wants to break the rules, and mordo thinks that the rules are there for a good reason. It actually makes sense for Strange as his background is in science and medicine, where were always looking to learn and discover. As an aside, I initially didn't agree, but after thought I like that the movie didn't linger on Strange's training to long, giving us just what we need to understand it.

Extras: They mention the staff of the Living Tribunal (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Living_Tribunal_(Multiverse))?! Then there's the fact that the Eye of Agamotto is the time stone (not too intrusive too, no wasted time trying to set up other movies). Then Thor appears in the stinger, setting up Ragnarok.

Final Thoughts: Overall great movie, full of fun, action, and most importantly, wonder. The whole film gives you a sense that this is only the surface of the mystical part of the MCU! 9/10

[Zalabim]

Another part to how the Strange-ly named Mister Doctor took on the final boss is it let him save the world without him killing anyone else. The zealots will live eternally after all.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Yeah, basically I wish they show better how dangerous the zealots are, if that's their intention. I mean, your explanation makes sense, but I wish they just show it better that they're like, extra dangerous wizards and not just mooks. Since most of the destruction they do is off screen.

I think the zealots were just kind of mooks, while their leader whose name I can't spell was just not really trying in most of the fights because he didn't need to unless the Ancient One was there.

[Tvtyrant]

I liked the film. The only problems I had with it were that I really doubt he lived through the car accident (sped off a cliff, rolled about four times and then went into the water) and the weird building ripples which were cool but in a lot of scenes didn't accomplish anything.

[huttj509]

As an aside, I initially didn't agree, but after thought I like that the movie didn't linger on Strange's training to long, giving us just what we need to understand it.


My favorite line was the comparison to how he learned medicine. Years of study and practice. For me it helped the following montage feel longer and less "easy" despite Strange having an obvious affinity for the study, especially once he found "yes, I *can* do this."

[Hopeless]

I liked the film. The only problems I had with it were that I really doubt he lived through the car accident (sped off a cliff, rolled about four times and then went into the water) and the weird building ripples which were cool but in a lot of scenes didn't accomplish anything.

In the animated movie it was a deliberate effort by mystical forces to eliminate him after he was discovered by Wong.

He was able to see through their illusions and was eventually recruited pretty much like the movie except Mordo was the eventual bad guy who served Dormammu

[BiblioRook]

The movie ended up being a lot quippier then I expected. A lot quippier. Personally I liked that though and it only added to my enjoyment but I imagine it would be something that stood out to people who were expecting or hoping for a more serious film.

One thing I didn't really understand though
Kaecilius was almost beat by beat Mordo from the comics, I don't really get why making him not-Mordo was really necessary. Not only that, but making Mordo one of the good guys (in what basically more or less was the role Wong had in the comics). Yeah yeah I get that they are setting up Mordo to be a bigger villain later on but they could just as easily fill the role future Mordo plays with someone else just as they swapped the names around with this movie. I mean, it's not like Strange really has that much of a shortage of villains to potentially face.

[Clertar]

On another subject, of course Thor has a Mug of Endless Beer.:smallamused:


It wasn't Thor's, it was Doctor Strange's magic. First he changed Thor's tea cup into a beer mug, and then he refilled it.

[Erys]

One thing I didn't really understand though
Kaecilius was almost beat by beat Mordo from the comics, I don't really get why making him not-Mordo was really necessary. Not only that, but making Mordo one of the good guys (in what basically more or less was the role Wong had in the comics). Yeah yeah I get that they are setting up Mordo to be a bigger villain later on but they could just as easily fill the role future Mordo plays with someone else just as they swapped the names around with this movie. I mean, it's not like Strange really has that much of a shortage of villains to potentially face.

My guess is:
In this movie the big bad is Dormamu, Kaecilius is just the guy to get us to him; now that the arc is done neither character need return. Mordo, on the other hand, is a more iconic enemy of Strange. Marvel probably wants him to return (which would be really hard if he were stuck in the dark dimension), and the way they made this movie it is almost like a dual origin story of both Dr Strange and Baron Mordo. One additional reason I really enjoyed this film.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The movie ended up being a lot quippier then I expected. A lot quippier. Personally I liked that though and it only added to my enjoyment but I imagine it would be something that stood out to people who were expecting or hoping for a more serious film.

One thing I didn't really understand though
Kaecilius was almost beat by beat Mordo from the comics, I don't really get why making him not-Mordo was really necessary. Not only that, but making Mordo one of the good guys (in what basically more or less was the role Wong had in the comics). Yeah yeah I get that they are setting up Mordo to be a bigger villain later on but they could just as easily fill the role future Mordo plays with someone else just as they swapped the names around with this movie. I mean, it's not like Strange really has that much of a shortage of villains to potentially face.

Mordo and Strange have a rather complex relationship in the comics, not unlike Thor and Loki or Reed and Doom. Sometimes ally, generally rival, rarely all-out-I'm-gonna-kill-him enemy.

In the meta sense, they're saving Mordo for more films, which isn't something the MCU has been good at.

[Douglas]

I liked the film. The only problems I had with it were that I really doubt he lived through the car accident (sped off a cliff, rolled about four times and then went into the water) and the weird building ripples which were cool but in a lot of scenes didn't accomplish anything.
Yes, the accident was a bit over the top. My immediate reaction was "that did not look survivable".
The slo-mo closeup of shattering glass hitting his hands was fine, and I think there was a momentary bit of his hands actually getting crushed, but that's really all they needed for the "Strange can't be a surgeon any more" plot point. The quadruple flip and impact from a multiple-story high speed fall was gratuitous and just took me out of the story a bit. At that point in the movie he's not supposed to have any special toughness, he's just really smart and skilled at surgery, and that accident looked lethal for any normal person.

If the Ancient One survived a crash like that, I wouldn't even blink - she's got supreme supernatural badassery, which is established in her very first appearance - but Dr. Strange isn't like that at that point in the movie.

[Erys]

Modern cars are pretty impressive.

Check out the damage to this guys car- a wreck he not only walked away from , but only needed a couple bandaids. There are many, many other examples.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2015/01/interstate_84_semi-truck_crash_1.html

So, yes, the wreck Dr Strange suffered was over the top. But him surviving it isn't completely unrealistic.

[druid91]

I have to say,

When you get accused of giving someone LSD laced tea, the proper response should be something OTHER than punching their astral form on some weird trippy journey through parallel dimensions.

[Tvtyrant]

Modern cars are pretty impressive.

Check out the damage to this guys car- a wreck he not only walked away from , but only needed a couple bandaids. There are many, many other examples.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2015/01/interstate_84_semi-truck_crash_1.html

So, yes, the wreck Dr Strange suffered was over the top. But him surviving it isn't completely unrealistic.

On the other hand I have a family member who was in a low speed accident that permanently crippled the other person. Cars are extremely good at taking head on collisions due to crumple zones, dropping off cliffs less so.

They also dropped him in water with the glass broken, and it took hours to find him. His survival is a little... Strange.

[Erys]

On the other hand I have a family member who was in a low speed accident that permanently crippled the other person. Cars are extremely good at taking head on collisions due to crumple zones, dropping off cliffs less so.

They also dropped him in water with the glass broken, and it took hours to find him. His survival is a little... Strange.

There are a myriad of unknowns for what happened to the unfortunate person you mentioned above. Older car, no seat belt, defect, bad luck... fate.

The point remains, the wreck was fantastic and over the top; but, survival is not out of the realm of possibility. Also, just the front end was in water; it is not like he was submerged for hours.

[GAZ]

Dormammu, I've come to bargain!

Fantastic movie. I loved how the ending was the hero using his wits, his knowledge, and his resources to get one over on the enemy instead of just punching him back into the generic sky beam. I felt like the movie really earned the sacrifice and victory through failure elements to that win too.

The visuals were stunning. I saw it in 3D, which I normally hate and loved it. Everything looked great. The spells, the Inception/Escher mirror dimension, the Matrix snowtime, the Ditko Dark Dimension, it was all gorgeous.

The time turner fight in Hong Kong was amazing. It was incredibly inventive on top of cool looking and was a nice play "every climax leaves everybody dead in a ruined city" trope. I also like how Strange trapped his foes here rather than killing them after his "a doctor shouldn't kill" bit.

Marvel had another good villain with Kaecilius. Mads Mikkelsen is a fantastic actor and really sold this guy. I bought that he started out just like Strange and really believes that he's right. The fact that the Ancient One really was using the power of the Dark Dimension to extend her own life, but not granting that life to humanity at large really is pretty messed up. Plus he was half of my favorite exchange in the film:
Kaecilius: How long have you been at Kamar-Taj, mister...?
Strange: Doctor.
K: Mister Doctor.
S: It's Strange.
K: Maybe. Who am I to judge?

The only reason I don't think Dr. Strange was 100% perfect was that I don't think it needed to be such an action movie. I would have gladly made the Sanctum fight and the chase scene a little shorter in exchange for putting more time in with the Strange/Palmer relationship and especially Stephen studying at Hogwarts.

[BiblioRook]

Anyone else think that Strange reaching fr the axe in the Santorum fight was supposed to be some sort of nod to his weapon of choice (http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/b/bc/Doctor_Strange_%26_the_Sorcerers_Supreme_Vol_1_1_T easer_Variant.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160927164135) in the newer comics?

Also something I didn't catch until I saw the name in print, but that other surgeon that Strange worked with that he humiliated over prematurely calling a death?
He's a huge part of one of the most well known Doctor Strange stories; The Oath. As the main villain.

[Zhentarim]

He is a pathfinder wizard

[huttj509]

Anyone else think that Strange reaching fr the axe in the Santorum fight was supposed to be some sort of nod to his weapon of choice (http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/b/bc/Doctor_Strange_%26_the_Sorcerers_Supreme_Vol_1_1_T easer_Variant.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160927164135) in the newer comics?

Also something I didn't catch until I saw the name in print, but that other surgeon that Strange worked with that he humiliated over prematurely calling a death?
He's a huge part of one of the most well known Doctor Strange stories; The Oath. As the main villain.

I loved just that little moment near the end with the scalpel.

[Leewei]

Why did strange had to go to dormamu's realm, instead of continue fighting the mook wizards, which should be considered easier than beating an actual god?

Dormammu's wizards had adapted to the time reversal. The reversal itself was very risky - remember his experiment with the apple. Even if he had defeated the wizards, it may not have been possible to stop the Dark Dimension from consuming the world. Doctor Strange instead opted to end the entire crisis.

[Douglas]

Kaecilius' depiction going into the final fight was a nice touch.
Kaecilius walking along. *total confidence*
Kaecilius spots Steven Strange. *still total confidence*
Kaecilius sees Strange starting to cast time reverse. *oh crap STOP HIM!*

[Darth Ultron]

It was ok. Sure they have to waste like most of the movie on the origin, but that is normal for a first superhero movie.

Mordo is black and the Ancient One is a white woman...well, ''Marvel is the most diverse, right?''

I was not all that happy with the CGI magic. But guess they are just making it like the modern comics ''a three year old rubbed colors all over this page'' stuff. As a Dr. Strange reader of the old comics, I'm used to the ''bolt of bedevilment'' that was ''just a small flash of light'', not ''100,000 pixels''.

And they might have mixed too much science in with the magic. But sure the comic did that from time to time....I just like the more ''magic is magic''.

And sadly like most of the modern comics no one is casting any of the classic spells like ''the crimson bands of Cyttrock'' and saying so.

I guess if we get a Dr. Strange 2: Spelling made Easy, then Mordo will turn bad?

[Legato Endless]

Dormammu's wizards had adapted to the time reversal. The reversal itself was very risky - remember his experiment with the apple. Even if he had defeated the wizards, it may not have been possible to stop the Dark Dimension from consuming the world. Doctor Strange instead opted to end the entire crisis.

Beyond that, people are forgetting Strange's character. He isn't like the Avengers with their lethal rules of engagement. Strange tried incapacitating the rogue Wizards but that failed and the time spell began faltering. Strange identifies as a doctor first and foremost, and he takes the Hippocratic oath seriously. He doesn't want to kill anyone. Yes, he does that use that oath as an excuse at one point, but it's not only an excuse. That's also why he tries to trap them in the mirror dimension.

Dr.Strange is not the story of a selfish coward who learns to fight as a magic soldier to make a difference. It's the story of a man who helps people except at personal cost to a man who helps people even if it means being tortured endlessly.


And sadly like most of the modern comics no one is casting any of the classic spells like ''the crimson bands of Cyttrock'' and saying so. ?

Eh, while I wouldn't mind a bit more variety to the punchy combat, the MCU's visual style doesn't lend itself to watching two people pose, recite and point-cast. Also, the old comics had a bad tendency to take the spells to magibabble levels of BS for resolving fights. We already have enough of that, such as Vision's 'I've cleansed Ultron from inhabiting every networked device on earth so we don't have to deal with this beyond the movie.'

Strange being stuck with a very limited set of techniques made it more entertaining watching him outwit his enemies. It's high time we got something resembling a trickster hero in the MCU.

[The Glyphstone]

Strange being stuck with a very limited set of techniques made it more entertaining watching him outwit his enemies. It's high time we got something resembling a trickster hero in the MCU.

Doesn't Ant-man sort of count for that?

[Legato Endless]

Doesn't Ant-man sort of count for that?

Pre-Civil War totally. The Kaiju sequence in the airport muddled that narrative somewhat.

[The Glyphstone]

Fair enough, I hadn't been including his short stint as Giant Man either.

[Tvtyrant]

Doesn't Ant-man sort of count for that?

A lot of Antman tricks appear to be "fundamentally changing the way my powers work for 10 seconds." Keychain tank should have weighed nothing, tiny antmen on the toy train set should have broken the table from their weight, giant antman should I drifted away into the sky, etc. Light enough to ride an ant, heavy enough to punch a guy.

[The Glyphstone]

A lot of Antman tricks appear to be "fundamentally changing the way my powers work for 10 seconds." Keychain tank should have weighed nothing, tiny antmen on the toy train set should have broken the table from their weight, giant antman should I drifted away into the sky, etc. Light enough to ride an ant, heavy enough to punch a guy.

Except that's still very consistent, in an inconsistent way - Pym particles can clearly alter both an object's size and its mass/weight as independent variables. How Scott controls that function of his technology just isn't explained.

[Tvtyrant]

Except that's still very consistent, in an inconsistent way - Pym particles can clearly alter both an object's size and its mass/weight as independent variables. How Scott controls that function of his technology just isn't explained.

Fair enough. It is a little odd that they don't use that for cooler stuff though, like flying (or flying cities!) or crushing enemies under their own weight. Weightostars seem like the best weapon ever.

[The Glyphstone]

Or just the laziest superhero ever, Fatman.

[Fri]

Actually, I like the "Strange doesn't want to kill and would rather torture himself" reason compared to "the zealots are hard fight" even more. If that's the case, I must admit this is one of the few time when a characterization in a movie is too subtle for me eventhough it's been mentioned and I need a flashback (which, usually, is something I'm annoyed at hollywood movies, where they need to remidn the viewers on plans or characterizations every 10 minutes).

[Sapphire Guard]

I'm not clear on something.

Are all the Ancient Ones disciples except Strange, Wong and Mordo dead now?

[Ruslan]

I'm not clear on something.

Are all the Ancient Ones disciples except Strange, Wong and Mordo dead now?

All the important named ones sure are!

[Olinser]

I'm not clear on something.

Are all the Ancient Ones disciples except Strange, Wong and Mordo dead now?

I don't think so.

He put Hong Kong back together, so presumably he put the guys inside back together. Now they've definitely lost a lot, but there were a couple dozen in Hong Kong at least.

[ben-zayb]

One thing I'd like to see explored would be theapplication of magic on objects. Aside from relics, we also saw the teleportation window. Is magic required to "dial" it? How easy is it to create? Is it a permanent enchantment?

[Aotrs Commander]

I, on the other hand, would like to this this explored...

http://i.imgur.com/hb0eBka.jpg

[Kato]

One thing I'd like to see explored would be theapplication of magic on objects. Aside from relics, we also saw the teleportation window. Is magic required to "dial" it? How easy is it to create? Is it a permanent enchantment?

Would be nice but I can't see it happening. I feel it would be too much for a movie, though with the hinted plot of the sequel... I might be wrong. But for proper details you'll likely need the comics.


Aorts: You forgot the great sequel.
http://chickgeek.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/12549110_874069642711021_5363529676474403153_n.jpg

[Aotrs Commander]

Aorts: You forgot the great sequel.
http://chickgeek.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/12549110_874069642711021_5363529676474403153_n.jpg


Pahahahahahaha!

Oh my Lichemaster, this so needs to happen in the movies.

[Psyren]

I loved it, particular Cumberbatch as Strange, which quickly elevated him to my second-favorite Marvel hero (Vision still takes the top spot.) I thought the "kung-fu magic" was a bit trite, but somatic components also come across better in a Hollywood action flick than "By The Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth!" so I get it.

My hope though is that future titles are a bit more cerebral and a bit less on the kung fu wizards.



And they might have mixed too much science in with the magic. But sure the comic did that from time to time....I just like the more ''magic is magic''.

See, that was actually one of my favorite aspects of it - for example his discussion with the Elder One about cellular regeneration, pointing out that you really can blur the line between science and magic if you go deep enough. I'm a huge fan of Arthur C. Clarke for this very reason.



I guess if we get a Dr. Strange 2: Spelling made Easy, then Mordo will turn bad?

He pretty much is bad, as the end credits scene makes clear.

[Kato]

He pretty much is bad, as the end credits scene makes clear.

Lies!


He seeks to restore balance and stop people from abusing magic! How is that evil? :smalltongue:




Though, as most people seem to agree Strange is good... mini poll: Best super hero movie this year? Better than Civil War/DoJ/ Deadpool? (Please without derayling in long arguments on defending/bashing one) I'll entirely admit to my inner child taking over and still preferring the Merc over the Sorcerer. I wholeheartedly agree then Strange was on many levels the better movie but as for pure enjoyment, DP still wins this for me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Though, as most people seem to agree Strange is good... mini poll: Best super hero movie this year? Better than Civil War/DoJ/ Deadpool? (Please without derayling in long arguments on defending/bashing one) I'll entirely admit to my inner child taking over and still preferring the Merc over the Sorcerer. I wholeheartedly agree then Strange was on many levels the better movie but as for pure enjoyment, DP still wins this for me.

Civil War > Deadpool > Strange >>>>>>>>>>>>>{...repeat ad nauseam...}>DoJ

GW

[Silver Swift]

Civil War > Strange > DoJ

Haven't watched Deadpool (and don't plan on), pretty sure it is not my cup of tea.

[Legato Endless]

Seemed a fairly polarized year for Superhero films.

Good
Dr. Strange
Civil War
Deadpool


Trainwreck
Batman v. Superman

Boring old Schlocke
X-men

Godawful
Suicide Squad

[Leewei]

Beyond that, people are forgetting Strange's character. He isn't like the Avengers with their lethal rules of engagement. Strange tried incapacitating the rogue Wizards but that failed and the time spell began faltering. Strange identifies as a doctor first and foremost, and he takes the Hippocratic oath seriously. He doesn't want to kill anyone. Yes, he does that use that oath as an excuse at one point, but it's not only an excuse. That's also why he tries to trap them in the mirror dimension.

Dr.Strange is not the story of a selfish coward who learns to fight as a magic soldier to make a difference. It's the story of a man who helps people except at personal cost to a man who helps people even if it means being tortured endlessly.

Having mulled this over a bit, I think you nailed it.

Another thought about the movie:It's interesting how Doctor Strange started out seeing the acupuncture chart, MRI, and chakras in the book the Ancient One showed him, and ultimately dismissed the alternative medicine. At the time, it seemed like he was being obstinate.

Fast forward to the end, though, and we find out that the healing was just a spell allowing Pangborn to manipulate his body.

The Ancient One was certainly willing to do some questionable things for her cause. I wonder if she was lying to Stephen about her healing techniques.

[ben-zayb]

Though, as most people seem to agree Strange is good... mini poll: Best super hero movie this year? Better than Civil War/DoJ/ Deadpool? (Please without derayling in long arguments on defending/bashing one) I'll entirely admit to my inner child taking over and still preferring the Merc over the Sorcerer. I wholeheartedly agree then Strange was on many levels the better movie but as for pure enjoyment, DP still wins this for me.
I'd really love this to be a thread of its own, so we could discuss at length our CBM rankings for this year. It was a really surprising year for me: some for the better, some for the worse.

But in a nutshell, DP > (CA ~= DS) > SS > (BvS ~= X)

[Rodin]

Just watched it and I don't know if I can separate it from Civil War. My reasons for liking both are quite different. Dr Strange was simple and self-contained, and did what it set out to do very well. Civil War was part of a much larger narrative, which gave it a lot more bang and gusto but also brought along the bloated feel of the ensemble movies.

It's definitely in my top tier of Marvel movies for sure, which right now contains exactly Avengers I, Civil War, Ant Man, and now Dr. Strange. In no particular order, although if push came to shove I'd probably peg Avengers I as the top still.

One question for the comic gurus - at one point Strange is on the phone and his colleague is listing off case files for him to consider taking up. I caught Rhodey in the list, so I assume that the others have significance too. Were there any other recognizable characters in the list?

[Calemyr]

I'd put it Deadpool>Strange>Civil War, with the rest not worth ranking. All three were pretty cool, but Deadpool had the "fun" of movies nailed, while Strange managed to be something we haven't seen a million times (just once with Inception). Civil War was fun, but stupid. The entire cast just made stupid decision after stupid conclusion after stupid comment after stupid decision, all to make a stupid and manufactured conflict come off as tragic. Suicide Squad was fun but stupid as well, while BvS was unpleasant and stupid. If anyone was expecting an X-Men movie to be more than average at best anymore, I'd be surprised.

[Rodin]

Oh yeah, I forgot to rank Deadpool. Deadpool is definitely tier two material for me. It did a lot of good fun, but the humor was very hit and miss - in particular, his relationship with the old lady was absolutely cringe-inducing. Other bits were of the "it's crude so it's funny" variety, which was amusing in high school but just isn't now. It's a demographic problem, sure, but it affects my review.

Basically, I enjoyed Deadpool despite not being the primary audience, which says a lot of good about it but still means I didn't enjoy it as much as the others.

[Tvtyrant]

This year from best/most enjoyed to least would be Deadpool, BvS, Dr. Strange, Civil War, Suicide Squad. Dr. Strange was really good, but it wasn't good enough for me to watch twice in theaters like some Marvel movies. Better then Civil War, Ultron and most of the one offs though.

[Psyren]

For me: Civil War > Strange > Deadpool > Suicide Squad = X-Men >>> DoJ.



Another thought about the movie:It's interesting how Doctor Strange started out seeing the acupuncture chart, MRI, and chakras in the book the Ancient One showed him, and ultimately dismissed the alternative medicine. At the time, it seemed like he was being obstinate.

Fast forward to the end, though, and we find out that the healing was just a spell allowing Pangborn to manipulate his body.

The Ancient One was certainly willing to do some questionable things for her cause. I wonder if she was lying to Stephen about her healing techniques.

I don't think these are mutually exclusive. When a doctor operates and sews you back up, all they're doing is reattaching the physical connections/repairing the structural damage, and then relying on the programming in your cells to do the actual work of "turning the lights back on" (restarting flows etc.) In extreme cases, they'll prod things along with drugs and other forms of therapy. But when your cells don't know what to do (e.g. nerve damage) then no amount of reattaching will fix you.

So when a paraplegic dude is using his magic to move around, what he's doing is supplementing or bypassing that cellular programming with magical signals. It's not that acupuncture and chakras are incorrect (in that universe) - rather, they are stepping stones on the path to being able to manipulate or override your cells' programming more directly.

In other words, the mystic stuff and the science don't have to be at odds.

[lord_khaine]

So when a paraplegic dude is


Actually, what said paraplegic guy did, were to use his magic to replace the missing signals from his torn nerves. The damage were newer healed, he used all his available mana to substain a "Nerve override" spell, so to speak.

And i kinda think that were a little dumb, actually. In a world where magic can bend time and space, it still cant manage to do any actual healing.
Of course, that was purely to ensure Strange's hands remained wrecked.

[Eladrinblade]

Right before the car crash, two other marvel characters are hinted at.

The first is rhodey, I'm pretty sure. Who is the schizophrenic lightning chick?

[Erys]

Right before the car crash, two other marvel characters are hinted at.

The first is rhodey, I'm pretty sure. Who is the schizophrenic lightning chick?

The first is probably the Hammer soldier from Iron Man 2. The second, I believe, is Carol Danvers.

[Hopeless]

Only thing Carol Danvers never possessed a cybernetic implant in her brain nor was schizophrenic

Yes I know they're mangling the Marvel history again!

[Psyren]

Right before the car crash, two other marvel characters are hinted at.

The first is rhodey, I'm pretty sure. Who is the schizophrenic lightning chick?


The first is probably the Hammer soldier from Iron Man 2. The second, I believe, is Carol Danvers.

Speaking of which, there's a plot hole here that bugged me:

Whether the first dude is Rhodes or the Iron Man 2 guy (I definitely think it's Rhodes, "army guy who fell in Power Armor" has to be a Civil War nod), the timeline is still messed up. Stephen Strange was on Fury's radar as far back as Winter Soldier, but he evidently doesn't get his magic until much, much later. So why would Fury be keeping tabs on a random, if gifted, surgeon?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So why would Fury be keeping tabs on a random, if gifted, surgeon?

For project T.A.H.I.T.I. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/AgentsOfSHIELDS1E14TAHITI)? We know he was developing methods by which to heal Avenger members, so keeping tabs on the best surgeon in the world (tm) makes sense.

GW

[Razade]

Only thing Carol Danvers never possessed a cybernetic implant in her brain nor was schizophrenic

Yes I know they're mangling the Marvel history again!

The MCU is decoupled from Marvel "History" and is all the better for it. Unlike Marvel "History" the movies aren't going to get four retcons because Marvel is too scared to try new super heroes and instead simply brings them back to life with a new skin tone and boobs when they wanna drum up easy controversy to sell a few extra pages. At least the standard of quality has remained fairly luke warm even with the worst of the MCU films.

[lord_khaine]

Regarding plot hole


Its most likely not Rhodes, since i dont believe him to be just 35, he looks more like 45. And if its not Rhodes thats mentioned, then the timeline can indeed line up nicely.

Though the theory that Fury wanted to keep track of him because he might need a really good Doctor is not bad either.

[JadedDM]

Right before the car crash, two other marvel characters are hinted at.

The first is rhodey, I'm pretty sure. Who is the schizophrenic lightning chick?
Scott Derrickson, the director, confirmed (https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/56w0q6/hey_everyone_reading_through_everything_will/d8mxv6y/) it was not Rhodey. It was just a throwaway line, not meant to reference anyone specific.

[Eladrinblade]

Regarding plot hole


Its most likely not Rhodes, since i dont believe him to be just 35, he looks more like 45. And if its not Rhodes thats mentioned, then the timeline can indeed line up nicely.

Though the theory that Fury wanted to keep track of him because he might need a really good Doctor is not bad either.



I originally thought it was a reference to iron man 2, but then I remembered it said "air force colonel". Gotta be rhodey. Apparently not.

Also, I think the Strange movie takes place a bit in the past, maybe? His name comes up on the genetic map thing; was it at the sanctum?

[Friv]

I originally thought it was a reference to iron man 2, but then I remembered it said "air force colonel". Gotta be rhodey.

Also, I think the Strange movie takes place a bit in the past, maybe? His name comes up on the genetic map thing; was it at the sanctum?


The problem with it being Rhodey, IIRC, was that the colonel in question had a severed spine; Rhodey was badly hurt, but as of the end of Civil War was still able to use his legs, and was in physical therapy.

The timing on Doctor Strange is a little vague, probably deliberately. It's definitely post-Avengers, because the Avengers are mentioned. It might be just present-day. Even before becoming a sorcerer, Steven Strange was a super-famous surgeon who spoke at conferences and was constantly looking for new medical techniques; he could easily have become a threat to HYDRA in other ways than simply learning magic.

[Legato Endless]

The problem with it being Rhodey, IIRC, was that the colonel in question had a severed spine; Rhodey was badly hurt, but as of the end of Civil War was still able to use his legs, and was in physical therapy.

The timing on Doctor Strange is a little vague, probably deliberately. It's definitely post-Avengers, because the Avengers are mentioned. It might be just present-day. Even before becoming a sorcerer, Steven Strange was a super-famous surgeon who spoke at conferences and was constantly looking for new medical techniques; he could easily have become a threat to HYDRA in other ways than simply learning magic.

Yeah, Hydra's plan involved targeting a huge number of people, Strange's heroic resolve and independent streak alone might qualified him for elimination, even if he weren't a brilliant Doctor. Hydra's game plan wasn't to get ride of powered individuals, it was to kill everyone who wasn't likely to kneel to their regime.

[Psyren]

For project T.A.H.I.T.I. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/AgentsOfSHIELDS1E14TAHITI)? We know he was developing methods by which to heal Avenger members, so keeping tabs on the best surgeon in the world (tm) makes sense.

GW


Regarding plot hole


Its most likely not Rhodes, since i dont believe him to be just 35, he looks more like 45. And if its not Rhodes thats mentioned, then the timeline can indeed line up nicely.

Though the theory that Fury wanted to keep track of him because he might need a really good Doctor is not bad either.



I actually messed up - it wasn't Fury tracking him, it was HYDRA, using Zola's highly predictive algorithm (which they use to assassinate potentially problematic people.) Consider my objection retracted.

[Ramza00]

I actually messed up - it wasn't Fury tracking him, it was HYDRA, using Zola's highly predictive algorithm (which they use to assassinate potentially problematic people.) Consider my objection retracted.

Remember Zola was a Nazi.

That is probably enough said.

[Dragonexx]

I originally thought it was a reference to iron man 2, but then I remembered it said "air force colonel". Gotta be rhodey. Apparently not.

Also, I think the Strange movie takes place a bit in the past, maybe? His name comes up on the genetic map thing; was it at the sanctum?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz1M5i5Y4Qc

Here's the relevant scene about the test pilot. A severed spine was mentioned, and that probably fits hammers pilot.

[Psyren]

Remember Zola was a Nazi.

That is probably enough said.

Pretty sure I covered that by saying he was from HYDRA. That's kind of what they were and all :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

Pretty sure I covered that by saying he was from HYDRA. That's kind of what they were and all :smalltongue:

Weirdly though when they found out about Thor they didn't start worshipping him, or Loki.

[Leewei]

In other words, the mystic stuff and the science don't have to be at odds.

The Ancient One spoke of being able to coax cells into entirely new forms. Dr. Strange ended up instead being trained as a mystic foot soldier, however. It seems like there was a bit of bait and switch taking place.

[lord_khaine]

The ancient one did a lot of rather questionable things in the short time we saw her. One could say its hardly surprising Mordo eventually lost faith in her.

[Olinser]

The Ancient One spoke of being able to coax cells into entirely new forms. Dr. Strange ended up instead being trained as a mystic foot soldier, however. It seems like there was a bit of bait and switch taking place.

Yes and no.

Remember that while the length of time is somewhat unclear, Strange had not been training that long and he had only had minimal combat training (we saw exactly 1 session of him doing that and he couldn't even maintain 2 hand shields). He certainly wasn't being made a very good foot soldier, if that was their intention.

It seemed to me that the Ancient One was basically using his desire to fix his hands as the hook to get him introduced to the world, and at a later point (probably right before he was able to fix his hands), she was going to give him the hard sell of protecting the world from evil and forget about his selfish desires. Circumstances simply forced the choice on Strange much earlier than the Ancient One would have like.

At the end it wasn't explicit but at the end of the movie when he's at the window he looks down and stares at his hands for a good couple seconds before looking away out the window. That implied to me that he'd made his choice and abandoned his selfish goal of fixing his hands in favor of protecting the world.

[Keltest]

Yes and no.

Remember that while the length of time is somewhat unclear, Strange had not been training that long and he had only had minimal combat training (we saw exactly 1 session of him doing that and he couldn't even maintain 2 hand shields). He certainly wasn't being made a very good foot soldier, if that was their intention.

It seemed to me that the Ancient One was basically using his desire to fix his hands as the hook to get him introduced to the world, and at a later point (probably right before he was able to fix his hands), she was going to give him the hard sell of protecting the world from evil and forget about his selfish desires. Circumstances simply forced the choice on Strange much earlier than the Ancient One would have like.

At the end it wasn't explicit but at the end of the movie when he's at the window he looks down and stares at his hands for a good couple seconds before looking away out the window. That implied to me that he'd made his choice and abandoned his selfish goal of fixing his hands in favor of protecting the world.

I don't think he abandoned that goal, hands are useful things after all. But I do think he stopped caring so much about it.

[brionl]

Well, I saw it the other day and I liked it very much. Nice to see that CGI has advanced enough to do a good job on some of the Steve Ditko inspired stuff. I'm just glad I didn't see it in 3D, in regular 2D I was getting dizzy enough in a couple of places.

[Kitten Champion]

I came back from a 6:45 showing about an hour ago and really needed a shower and a meal apparently. I really enjoyed it. While acknowledging that it was a wire frame to hang the elaborate visual set-pieces on, the plot was enjoyable and well-paced. It has Marvel-isms associated with Phase One, like a kind of uninteresting villain and a love interest who could probably do more, but nothing overly egregious. I don't know if I'd have liked more of Strange's magical education - as I'm personally a sucker for that - but within the scope of the movie it might have dragged down the pacing too much.

Actually felt like a Wuxia movie that happens to have wizards in it - which I suppose isn't a terribly uncommon element for that genre either - a lot of the time.

Anyways, as someone who wanted to see wizards on a big screen doing fantastic things, this is my favourite depiction of magic in a Hollywood movie. It's creative, dynamic, varied, and well-enough explained or established visually to feel it all fits into this world.

[Cikomyr]

I went.

I seen.

I laughed.

It was a fun ride. Smart at moments. Silly at others. Fun characters, good acting.

Would watch again.

Edit: i especially like that the resolution was SMART

The very thing that the bad guy offered his followers turned out to be his Achilles's Heel

[Calemyr]

Actually, forget the hands. The watch is the more telling bit, I think. Broken, with serious sentimental value to him (a man with broken hands and no combat training was willing to fistfight a group of thugs to protect it). He has the Eye. He could, literally with a wave of his hand, restore it to as good as new (again, quite literally). He did it with the apple, rewinding it to "uneaten" rather than "a couple of bites taken" and leaving it there. End of the movie? It's still shattered.

I think it's because that's what it's "supposed to be", and Strange accepts that now. He doesn't want the watch anymore as a status symbol, an attractive accessory, or even an accurate time piece. The only part of the watch that really matters is the inscription, and that remains intact. The broken face, on the other hand, now reflects something meaningful as well: meeting Mordo and the Ancient One.

The same goes for his hands. He can, at will, enchant his hands to work perfectly. I think you see him do it a couple of times, like when he adjusts his clothing after the fight in the ER or the final scene where he looks at his fingers - when he uses them, they move swiftly and smoothly, but then he looks at them and they're shaking uncontrollably again. He could just do what the metalworker does and channel his magic to that end, but he doesn't have to. His hands, while not delicate, still work for the most part in their base state, and it's just his arrogance that requires perfection 24/7 and he's growing beyond that hubris at this point.

By the way, with his blue garb and red cloak, does he come off as more charismatic Superman to anyone else during some of the action scenes?

[Psyren]

Yes and no.

Remember that while the length of time is somewhat unclear, Strange had not been training that long and he had only had minimal combat training (we saw exactly 1 session of him doing that and he couldn't even maintain 2 hand shields). He certainly wasn't being made a very good foot soldier, if that was their intention.

It seemed to me that the Ancient One was basically using his desire to fix his hands as the hook to get him introduced to the world, and at a later point (probably right before he was able to fix his hands), she was going to give him the hard sell of protecting the world from evil and forget about his selfish desires. Circumstances simply forced the choice on Strange much earlier than the Ancient One would have like.

At the end it wasn't explicit but at the end of the movie when he's at the window he looks down and stares at his hands for a good couple seconds before looking away out the window. That implied to me that he'd made his choice and abandoned his selfish goal of fixing his hands in favor of protecting the world.

Indeed, and also:

Choosing to wear the broken watch was also symbolic, he's accepting his shattered hands because it means he can use his magic for more selfless ends.


I came back from a 6:45 showing about an hour ago and really needed a shower and a meal apparently. I really enjoyed it. While acknowledging that it was a wire frame to hang the elaborate visual set-pieces on, the plot was enjoyable and well-paced. It has Marvel-isms associated with Phase One, like a kind of uninteresting villain and a love interest who could probably do more, but nothing overly egregious. I don't know if I'd have liked more of Strange's magical education - as I'm personally a sucker for that - but within the scope of the movie it might have dragged down the pacing too much.

Actually felt like a Wuxia movie that happens to have wizards in it - which I suppose isn't a terribly uncommon element for that genre either - a lot of the time.

Anyways, as someone who wanted to see wizards on a big screen doing fantastic things, this is my favourite depiction of magic in a Hollywood movie. It's creative, dynamic, varied, and well-enough explained or established visually to feel it all fits into this world.

I enjoyed it too but I do think the kung-fu wizards felt a bit... Hollywood? Jedi? Bending? The moment I saw them all training in the courtyard I started thinking of Ba Sing Se.

I mean, it's definitely cooler than Harry Potter's education was, but what happens if you're physically frail or simply don't want to learn kung fu? Does it then not matter how smart or spiritual you are, no magic for you? Even the paralyzed guy pretty much has to use almost all his power just to move around, with none left for actually being a wizard. I guess I'm wondering, is there no room for an Professor X or Old Yoda type of caster in this school?

As for the depiction of magic itself, I think they could have done a better job of explaining/establishing it. Which spells do you need a Sling Ring to cast, and which ones not? Does casting a bunch of spells make you tired? Where'd that cloak come from and why did it bond with Strange and nobody else? Why was nobody else using the Eye? Why was neophyte Strange stronger in the end than experienced casters like Mordo and Wong? How is magical strength even determined? Is it innate power level, or did the others really not read all the books Strange did in as much detail as he did?

I can accept all these premises but a little more exploration would have been nice.

[Keltest]

Indeed, and also:

Choosing to wear the broken watch was also symbolic, he's accepting his shattered hands because it means he can use his magic for more selfless ends.



I enjoyed it too but I do think the kung-fu wizards felt a bit... Hollywood? Jedi? Bending? The moment I saw them all training in the courtyard I started thinking of Ba Sing Se.

I mean, it's definitely cooler than Harry Potter's education was, but what happens if you're physically frail or simply don't want to learn kung fu? Does it then not matter how smart or spiritual you are, no magic for you? Even the paralyzed guy pretty much has to use almost all his power just to move around, with none left for actually being a wizard. I guess I'm wondering, is there no room for an Professor X or Old Yoda type of caster in this school?

As for the depiction of magic itself, I think they could have done a better job of explaining/establishing it. Which spells do you need a Sling Ring to cast, and which ones not? Does casting a bunch of spells make you tired? Where'd that cloak come from and why did it bond with Strange and nobody else? Why was nobody else using the Eye? Why was neophyte Strange stronger in the end than experienced casters like Mordo and Wong? How is magical strength even determined? Is it innate power level, or did the others really not read all the books Strange did in as much detail as he did?

I can accept all these premises but a little more exploration would have been nice.

My take on it wasn't that Strange was necessarily stronger or more powerful, he was flat out smarter. disbelief or not, in many ways he was in his element there once he understood the basics. Furthermore he wasn't bogged down with respect for the rules or traditions, so he didn't tiptoe his way through magic the way Mordo did.

Or another way, a veteran boxer can still lose a street fight if he isn't willing to deal dirty blows, and his opponent is. Strange just didn't adhere to the same concepts of fair play that Mordo and Wong did, and took whatever advantage he needed to get ahead.

[Psyren]

My take on it wasn't that Strange was necessarily stronger or more powerful, he was flat out smarter. disbelief or not, in many ways he was in his element there once he understood the basics. Furthermore he wasn't bogged down with respect for the rules or traditions, so he didn't tiptoe his way through magic the way Mordo did.

Or another way, a veteran boxer can still lose a street fight if he isn't willing to deal dirty blows, and his opponent is. Strange just didn't adhere to the same concepts of fair play that Mordo and Wong did, and took whatever advantage he needed to get ahead.

I get that, but how? Every book he read, save one, was available to everybody - and even the one that wasn't, he only read a few pages out of. That doesn't nearly explain his advantage over the rest. Even if he reads faster or more thoroughly than they do, they've had months of head start, what were they doing in all that time? And it's got to be more than mere smarts too - could Tony Stark or Reed Richards have just been able to show up and become the Sorcerer Supreme too? He has a throwaway line about having a photographic memory, and I can definitely see the usefulness of that to a wizard, but is that really all it takes?

I just find it a bit hard to swallow that in the Ancient One's entire millennia-long tenure, he's the first PhD-level candidate/person with an Int higher than 16 to show up for training in all that time. Or maybe others did, and he was just the first one to stick around on the doorstep after being thrown out. I guess I'm just hoping the second movie gives a bit more detail on what exactly sets him apart, because "I'm a pretty smart but otherwise regular guy who's just better at reading the books you all had access to for years" is kind of underwhelming as origins go. Throw some Inhuman in his genome or something I say.

[Eldan]

He must be more than just smart, though. There was a throwaway line that Wong was giving him books in classical Sanskrit, which he didn't speak a word of. And somehow, he managed to read those.

[GloatingSwine]

As for the depiction of magic itself, I think they could have done a better job of explaining/establishing it. Which spells do you need a Sling Ring to cast, and which ones not?

They did establish that. The Sling Ring is specifically to use the teleport magic. It's not for anything else.


Where'd that cloak come from and why did it bond with Strange and nobody else?

Mordo says when he's introducing the concept that artifacts pick the user, not the other way around. The cloak was in a large collection of other artifacts, it doesn't matter where it came from before that because they'd established the concepts required to support .


Why was nobody else using the Eye?

It's bloody dangerous?

[Kantaki]

He must be more than just smart, though. There was a throwaway line that Wong was giving him books in classical Sanskrit, which he didn't speak a word of. And somehow, he managed to read those.

Didn't he use a app for that?

[Eldan]

He made a google translate joke, but come on. Even if google translate had Sanskrit, that wouldn't work.

[huttj509]

He must be more than just smart, though. There was a throwaway line that Wong was giving him books in classical Sanskrit, which he didn't speak a word of. And somehow, he managed to read those.

He mentioned google translate, and Wong replied by plopping a book on Sanskrit on top of the pile (the mention of what the book was was very short and not clear to hear).

[Legato Endless]

Even the paralyzed guy pretty much has to use almost all his power just to move around, with none left for actually being a wizard. I guess I'm wondering, is there no room for an Professor X or Old Yoda type of caster in this school?

It's more he only learned enough to be able to walk because he didn't want to be wizard. He admits cheerfully he 'settled for his miracle', with the implication being he could have gone a lot farther. There's definitely a lot of room for world building in the sequel.

My assumption based on the Buddhist thematic bend is he'd be a wheel chair bound sage had he continued, having accepted the past and moved on. You have to surrender yourself to the flow to gain power, which confuses Strange completely when he hears it. Most poignantly accepting the flow of time. Strange accepting his ruined hands as part of him and making peace that his old life is gone. The Ancient One tranquilly accepting her ending. Even Dormmamu has to accept this immutability lest he remain trapped.

[Starbuck_II]

As for the depiction of magic itself, I think they could have done a better job of explaining/establishing it. Which spells do you need a Sling Ring to cast, and which ones not? Does casting a bunch of spells make you tired? Where'd that cloak come from and why did it bond with Strange and nobody else? Why was nobody else using the Eye? Why was neophyte Strange stronger in the end than experienced casters like Mordo and Wong? How is magical strength even determined? Is it innate power level, or did the others really not read all the books Strange did in as much detail as he did?

I can accept all these premises but a little more exploration would have been nice.

1. Teleporting/mirror world.
2. It seemed to tire Strange out. Less so Ancient One because she cheated with using another plane for extra power/longevity.
3. We don't know where yet. It seemed to like him. Wong said they choose their owners. Likely trying to use a artifact that doesn't like you is very hard.
4. Everyone else wasn't a rule breaker. The bad guys tried, but failed to get it.
5. Strange cheated. He broke the rules of time and space. Mordo said it was dangerous. He could erase himself from time, be stuck in a endless loop, or cause deaths of everyone.
Basically Strange is in a weird machine pushing random buttons. So far, it seems to be working out great. Eventually, he might release a nuke. This is what upsets Mordo.
This is also why Strange didn't restore Ancient One to life with the Eye's time spell.

6. Unknown. It seems to be innate, but can be increased.
Remember, at first Strange had a blockage. After he finally let it flow, he was way stronger.
Knowledge =potential power. Because he remembers more of the spells he can coax more out of it.
Also cheating with Eye.

[Eldan]

He mentioned google translate, and Wong replied by plopping a book on Sanskrit on top of the pile (the mention of what the book was was very short and not clear to hear).

That still means he learned enough Sanskrit to read a book of magic in, what, a few weeks?

[Kato]

That still means he learned enough Sanskrit to read a book of magic in, what, a few weeks?

Strange is often regarded as one of the smartest people on Earth, so...

I can see why people would complain about him being so powerful so fast but he did work hard, he is established to be smart and tenacious, it's what he did to do two degrees at once. Not saying Mordo, Wong, etc, are dumb, but talent helps, as does eidetic memory.
The movie does a poor job establishing how magic works exactly, except for "we draw energy from other dimensions", but this does give us some idea people can be more or less adapt at that, as well as being more or less able to make good use of it.
And presumably just knowing how to do time magic doesn't work, you need to... well, have a knack for it. Which really is the one thing movie!Strange excelled at.

[Ramza00]

He must be more than just smart, though. There was a throwaway line that Wong was giving him books in classical Sanskrit, which he didn't speak a word of. And somehow, he managed to read those.

Sanskrit for people who are unfamiliar with it (not eveone is Eldan) is one of the oldest languages in the world (3800 years old, far older than greece, latin, english etc). Sanskrit comes from the indian subcontinent, but it is was fundamental to many other "western" languages due to other languages adopting words and concepts during the process of trade. Through this exchange of language and ideas, the Sanskrit language laid the foundation for many of the current world religions (definitely Buddhism and Hinduism), and even the religions that are not of the indian subcontinent such as the monotheistic faiths borrowed much of the language trough things such as loan words. For example here are some of the words that can be traced backed. Man (as in human and mankind), Mother, Father, Myth, Calendar, Percent, Love, Heart, Door, Royal, Voice, Ignite...the list goes on and on for several thousand words.

3800 years ago would be 1500 more years ago than Alexander the Great, 800 more years ago than King Solomon (whose dad was King David), 1000 more years than Homer the Greek Epic Teller, about the same time of Hammurabi the Great being born, and about 50 years prior to his Code of Hammurabi which is one of the oldest written laws systems (aka code of government) every discovered in a preserved form that we can attest to its veracity directly. In other words Sanskrit is really old and it shaped much of human's culture.


He must be more than just smart, though. There was a throwaway line that Wong was giving him books in classical Sanskrit, which he didn't speak a word of. And somehow, he managed to read those.

He did not actually read them. Instead he had a photographic memory and was able to store the pages in his mind without seeing a book. He was then able to later to do a compare and contrast in Ancient Sanskrit to Modern Sanskrit (similar to Ancient Greek vs Modern Greek) and then compare this Modern Sanskrit to English via Google Translate. It was labor intensive work but Doctor Strange is so awesome that once he sees a book he has the memory stored in his brain and he does not need to see the stuff again. He then has all the time later to figure out what he actually "read" / "saw" actually means and translate it into something he can understand and then uses magically.

Effectively Doctor Strange only superpower prior to meeting the Ancient One is having BBC Sherlock's Mind Palace (BBC Sherlock also played by the same actor who does Doctor Strange, Benedict Cumberbatch), but just like the BBC Sherlock seeing something does not equate to understanding until you figure things out via thinking about them. After his training though he got a mind palace and mystical powers based off lots of reading.

In fact Wongs and Strange exchange of Strange's photographic memory is later a plot point


One of the macguffins in the movies is the Book of Cagliostro which Kaecilius stole select pages from and with said pages he could talk to Dormammu, become empowered by Dormammu, and then free Dormammu.

http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Book_of_Cagliostro

Strange later finds the Book of Cagilostro and learns about the dark dimension (some of it, but not the Dark Dimension's connection to the Mirror Realm) and that the Ancient One is using powers from the Dark Dimension to obtain her longer life.

Note via using the Eye of Agamotto, Dr. Strange could read the missing pages and store them in his photographic memory. He also read the pages afterwards the missing pages. In fact this is a joke at the end of the movie, after defeating Kaecilius by making a deal with Dromammu, Dr. Strange said this.


“You should really read the warnings because the warnings come after the spells.” – Dr. Stephen Strange
“Hahahahahah that is funny.” – Wong (Benedict Wong)



He mentioned google translate, and Wong replied by plopping a book on Sanskrit on top of the pile (the mention of what the book was was very short and not clear to hear).

He said Vedic Classical Sanskrit. Aka he was getting a book, but probably we can't identify a specific book for what he said is not a title of a book or it is such a generic title of a book many works can be called a boring title such as Veidic Classical Sanskrit.

Veidic Sanskrit ===>Classical Sanskrit===>(Modern) Sanskrit.

Vedic Sanskrit is the Ancient Sanskrit that is 3800 years old.

Classical Sanskrit is more modern and is only 2500 to 2600 years old.

We also have modern Sanskrit.

As an analogy, this is kinda similar to how with English we have Old English (Anglo Saxons aka 1600 years ago)===>Middle English (after William the Conqueror of Normandy which is part of France invaded England a 1000 years ago, you can trace the modern kings and queens of England back to William the Conqueror)===>Modern English (roughly about 600 years ago).

Or as another analogy there is Homerian Greek===>Koine Greek===>Modern Green. Homerian GreeK(2800+ years old) was the language the Iliad and the Odyssey were orally transmitted in and eventually written down. Koine Greek also known as Hellenistic Greek that became the main form of greek after Alexander conquered much of persia, the fertile crescent, egypt, etc and caused lots of trade (the most famous works of Koine Greek are the books of the new testament), and there is modern greek. One thing many monks and priests have to do during their studies is learn modern greek and also koine greek if they want to understand the nuances of the new testament.

[Cikomyr]

I think Strange's strong understanding of basic science, coupled with his intellect, memory and deductive skill probably helped him get a footing in the mystic arts fast.

I like that this movie's magic isnt.. antiscience. But more like "science is a point of view of the world. Useful in its own ways"

[Douglas]

“You should really read the warnings because the warnings come after the spells.” – Dr. Stephen Strange
“Hahahahahah that is funny.” – Wong (Benedict Wong)
As I recall, it was "You should have stolen the whole book. The warnings come after the spells."

[Friv]

I mean, it's definitely cooler than Harry Potter's education was, but what happens if you're physically frail or simply don't want to learn kung fu? Does it then not matter how smart or spiritual you are, no magic for you?

That's pretty standard for many schools of Eastern mysticism; your body, mind, and soul are all bound up together and you need to train one to train the other. It doesn't matter specifically whether you're physically frail; Master Hamir is missing an arm but he can focus and draw runes regardless. But you have to train everything together, or you will train nothing.


Where'd that cloak come from and why did it bond with Strange and nobody else?
Relics are temperamental, and Mordo noted that the Cloak was particularly wild and didn't choose sorcerers often.


Why was nobody else using the Eye?

The sorcerer does not choose to use a relic; the relic chooses to be used.


Why was neophyte Strange stronger in the end than experienced casters like Mordo and Wong?

He wasn't. He was just more flexible, and had the Eye of Agamotto to give him a particularly useful and dangerous spell. In a straight fight Mordo would have beaten him easily (and indeed did not that far earlier in the movie), except that Strange isn't interested in straight fights.

[lord_khaine]

I get that, but how? Every book he read, save one, was available to everybody - and even the one that wasn't, he only read a few pages out of. That doesn't nearly explain his advantage over the rest. Even if he reads faster or more thoroughly than they do, they've had months of head start, what were they doing in all that time? And it's got to be more than mere smarts too - could Tony Stark or Reed Richards have just been able to show up and become the Sorcerer Supreme too? He has a throwaway line about having a photographic memory, and I can definitely see the usefulness of that to a wizard, but is that really all it takes?

Its not like he really had much of an advantage. For a large part it resided in him having the cloak, without that he would have gotten his ass kicked swiftly by the zealots. And we did not really see anything to suggest that he as such were a better sorcerer than Mordo or anyone else. He had a lot of natural talent, and a brilliant mind. That allowed him to learn magic much faster than anyone else, and to figure out how to use the Eye of Agomoto. That were likely also something others could have done, they just dont do it because its insanely risky.

And so what really wins him the last battle is mainly the eye, and him comming to a realisation that allows him to "cheat".


Throw some Inhuman in his genome or something I say.

Ye gods no! please keep at least one of the regular humans somewhat regular. There are already far, far to many inhumans plastered across everything.

[Kitten Champion]

That's pretty standard for many schools of Eastern mysticism; your body, mind, and soul are all bound up together and you need to train one to train the other. It doesn't matter specifically whether you're physically frail; Master Hamir is missing an arm but he can focus and draw runes regardless. But you have to train everything together, or you will train nothing.

It's the very first thing Tilda Swinton explains, the way the body can be reconfigured into new, healthier shapes using the spirit and the mind and why Strange progressed in this journey in the first place. Someone confined to a wheelchair in this paradigm would either being doing so by choice or lack of mystical ability.

They're also a mystical cult premised on the defense of humanity against cosmic horrors, that's the underlying purpose for everything they do. They're expected to be scholarly warriors as the basic fee for their enlightenment and power, which extends into their training and overall aesthetic.



He wasn't. He was just more flexible, and had the Eye of Agamotto to give him a particularly useful and dangerous spell. In a straight fight Mordo would have beaten him easily (and indeed did not that far earlier in the movie), except that Strange isn't interested in straight fights.

He, broadly speaking, knew only how to create strands of mystical energy to make whips or cat's cradle-esque edges. shields, spacial portals, and to exit into his astral form -- that are all elementary skills in their craft. He got one pretty powerful and one near-almighty magical artifacts for a levitation spell-effect (along with being a familiar) and temporal manipulation, but he's still a level 2-3 Wizard with not-that-great physical combat abilities. He has uncommon luck and base stats, to get around the issue of how he could be applicable in a plot so quickly.

[Psyren]

I think Strange's strong understanding of basic science, coupled with his intellect, memory and deductive skill probably helped him get a footing in the mystic arts fast.

I like that this movie's magic isnt.. antiscience. But more like "science is a point of view of the world. Useful in its own ways"

I like that too but man. The fact that no other people that smart ever showed up at the monastery in 1000+ years must have been really annoying to the Ancient One. Now I see why everything in Hogwarts was falling all over itself to teach Tom Riddle their inner workings, it's because 90% of the wizards that attend a wizard school are so relatively dull.


That's pretty standard for many schools of Eastern mysticism; your body, mind, and soul are all bound up together and you need to train one to train the other. It doesn't matter specifically whether you're physically frail; Master Hamir is missing an arm but he can focus and draw runes regardless. But you have to train everything together, or you will train nothing.

I get this too and even agree with it, particularly from a "make the movie interesting" standpoint. But it does limit the kinds of magic users your setting can have. It'd be like sitting down to play D&D, and finding out that every wizard has minimum Str, Dex, and Con requirements.



Ye gods no! please keep at least one of the regular humans somewhat regular. There are already far, far to many inhumans plastered across everything.

Well maybe not that specifically, but some kind of explanation as to why he's so particularly suited for this. Especially the trick at the end - what does surgery have to do with temporal manipulation? How did he manage to figure that out when no one else could, including people who already knew what the Eye could do? If relics choose the wizard, why did the Eye - named after the very guy who founded their order - choose him?

It also makes me wonder about Zola's algorithm. "Wow, this guy is getting crazy good grades - Nazi watchlist!" Was he like, the only guy on the planet to get a MD and PhD at the same time?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It'd be like sitting down to play D&D, and finding out that every wizard has minimum Str, Dex, and Con requirements.
No, just AD&D Paladins. We don't know that there aren't other ways to become a magician in MCU, just that Strange found this one, which depends on training acolytes to be warrior monks.


It also makes me wonder about Zola's algorithm. "Wow, this guy is getting crazy good grades - Nazi watchlist!" Was he like, the only guy on the planet to get a MD and PhD at the same time?

No, more like "this guy is dangerously clever, and not afraid to speak up. Definitely not the kind we want still around when we turn society into our own private sheep paddock"

GW

[Ramza00]

spacial portals...but he's still a level 2-3 Wizard with not-that-great physical combat abilities. He has uncommon luck and base stats, to get around the issue of how he could be applicable in a plot so quickly.

He got spatial portals which is a big deal. Teleport is a 5th level spell in D&D 3.5. Now his teleportation works more like a standard action teleportation circle (9th level spell) witout a material component and a 6 second or so casting time instead of a 10 minute casting time.

He also got plane shift to the mirror dimension, which is another 5th level spell effect (Cleric 5, Wizard Sorcerer 7).

-----

Those spatial portals are a big deal for they allow you to do things like teleport people or objects across the planet within seconds bypassing defenses.

Take for example you were on Asguard during the Dark Elves attacking the planet during Thor 2. If you were on "team evil" who wanted Jane Foster you could have these spatial portals you could have bypassed all the Asguard defenses that were "big laser weapon" shoot stuff down like it was star wars and also bypassed all the Asguard Guards that were protecting the throne room and Jane Foster. If you were on "team good guy", you could have teleported Jane Foster, Thor, and Loki directly to a "different realm portal" and escape at your leisure.

Do not discount the utility of these portals, they would allow Ant Man an instant way to "drop behind enemy lines and spy while small", they can allow Iron Man and Strange to coordinate an attack, I open the portal, you fire a repulsor beam through it, you can use said portal to instantly move your big guns, like Thor, Hulk, Vision, from one place to another.

[BRC]

It's the very first thing Tilda Swinton explains, the way the body can be reconfigured into new, healthier shapes using the spirit and the mind and why Strange progressed in this journey in the first place. Someone confined to a wheelchair in this paradigm would either being doing so by choice or lack of mystical ability.

They're also a mystical cult premised on the defense of humanity against cosmic horrors, that's the underlying purpose for everything they do. They're expected to be scholarly warriors as the basic fee for their enlightenment and power, which extends into their training and overall aesthetic.



He, broadly speaking, knew only how to create strands of mystical energy to make whips or cat's cradle-esque edges. shields, spacial portals, and to exit into his astral form -- that are all elementary skills in their craft. He got one pretty powerful and one near-almighty magical artifacts for a levitation spell-effect (along with being a familiar) and temporal manipulation, but he's still a level 2-3 Wizard with not-that-great physical combat abilities. He has uncommon luck and base stats, to get around the issue of how he could be applicable in a plot so quickly.

Hrmm, what general abilities DID the Wushu Wizards demonstrate.

Magic-String
Shield
Portals (With Sling Rings, which were common enough that I'm calling this a general ability, rather than artifact-focused)
Entering Mirror Dimension
Astral Projection
The Ancient One's Magical Mystery Tour (punching Steven through dimensions when he first arrived)
Nerve-Damage Bypass
The Glowy Circle Trick (Which, personally, I took to be the kung-fu wizard equivalent of practicing chords on a guitar.)

With Dark-Dimension Assist you had
Immortality
Invisible-Blade things
Advanced Mirror Dimension Manipulation

The Zealots also demonstrated a measure of super-strength (Breaking out of the wall), and the big glowy Arcane Bomb, but those could be general abilities not reliant on Dormmamu

Then, you had the Cloak, which was an enchanted item, and the time tricks which were reliant on the Eye of Agamato.

[Psyren]

No, just AD&D Paladins. We don't know that there aren't other ways to become a magician in MCU, just that Strange found this one, which depends on training acolytes to be warrior monks.

Actually, Aggomotto or the Ancient One found this one - and given their role/position, it's hard to imagine there are any others or they would be keeping tabs. (No others that non-aliens can access anyway.)


No, more like "this guy is dangerously clever, and not afraid to speak up. Definitely not the kind we want still around when we turn society into our own private sheep paddock"

"Clever and not afraid to speak up" = Sorcerer Supreme tho? Just the one guy? :smalltongue:

[BRC]

Actually, Aggomotto or the Ancient One found this one - and given their role/position, it's hard to imagine there are any others or they would be keeping tabs. (No others that non-aliens can access anyway.)



"Clever and not afraid to speak up" = Sorcerer Supreme tho? Just the one guy? :smalltongue:
Don't forget the Alliterative Name, that pings the Algorithm.

Peter Parker, Bruce Banner, Bucky Barnes, Steven Strange, Loki Laufeyson, Pepper Potts.

[Eldan]

And he's clearly a decendant of Jonathan Strange. That's my headcannon and I'm sticking with it.

[Rakaydos]

No, more like "this guy is dangerously clever, and not afraid to speak up. Definitely not the kind we want still around when we turn society into our own private sheep paddock"

GW
More like the movie starts aroung ironman 2, and Zolas Algorithum has spotted Strange popping from Hong Kong to New York to London without any flights before Cap 2 happens, studying sankirt books. Combining sorcery with strange's natural talents, and zola knew hed be a problem in the future.

[BRC]

More like the movie starts aroung ironman 2, and Zolas Algorithum has spotted Strange popping from Hong Kong to New York to London without any flights before Cap 2 happens, studying sankirt books. Combining sorcery with strange's natural talents, and zola knew hed be a problem in the future.

Except that it's highly implied that the film starts after Cap 3.

Early on, one of the cases Strange is offered in the car is an Air-force colonel who received spinal damage while using experimental powered armor.

It is highly implied that this is James Rhodes, whose spine was damaged during Civil War (How many other Air-Force colonels do you know running around in experimental power armor)

Potentially, the car crash took place after Iron Man 2 or 3, and Rhodes had, and recovered from, some injury off-screen.

Or the Air Force is trying to replicate the Iron Man Armor, and they have some other colonel trying it out.

Both of which are possible, but seem unlikely to me.

[Tyndmyr]

I get that, but how? Every book he read, save one, was available to everybody - and even the one that wasn't, he only read a few pages out of. That doesn't nearly explain his advantage over the rest. Even if he reads faster or more thoroughly than they do, they've had months of head start, what were they doing in all that time? And it's got to be more than mere smarts too - could Tony Stark or Reed Richards have just been able to show up and become the Sorcerer Supreme too? He has a throwaway line about having a photographic memory, and I can definitely see the usefulness of that to a wizard, but is that really all it takes?

I just find it a bit hard to swallow that in the Ancient One's entire millennia-long tenure, he's the first PhD-level candidate/person with an Int higher than 16 to show up for training in all that time. Or maybe others did, and he was just the first one to stick around on the doorstep after being thrown out. I guess I'm just hoping the second movie gives a bit more detail on what exactly sets him apart, because "I'm a pretty smart but otherwise regular guy who's just better at reading the books you all had access to for years" is kind of underwhelming as origins go. Throw some Inhuman in his genome or something I say.

It's covered. He's not the best at magic at any point. Even at the very end, everyone around him is better than him.

His strength is that he cheats. Bending time is against the rules. This isn't enough to overcome the older sorcerers who *also* cheat, but it is good enough for those who can't deal with the trick, which lets him defeat them indirectly.

[BRC]

It's covered. He's not the best at magic at any point. Even at the very end, everyone around him is better than him.

His strength is that he cheats. Bending time is against the rules. This isn't enough to overcome the older sorcerers who *also* cheat, but it is good enough for those who can't deal with the trick, which lets him defeat them indirectly.

He doesn't really bend time in combat, except at the end.

That said, he does "Cheat" to win most of his fights. Using the portal-windows, the straightjacket thing, the cloak, ect.

[Professor Gnoll]

Except that it's highly implied that the film starts after Cap 3.

Early on, one of the cases Strange is offered in the car is an Air-force colonel who received spinal damage while using experimental powered armor.

It is highly implied that this is James Rhodes, whose spine was damaged during Civil War (How many other Air-Force colonels do you know running around in experimental power armor)

Potentially, the car crash took place after Iron Man 2 or 3, and Rhodes had, and recovered from, some injury off-screen.

Or the Air Force is trying to replicate the Iron Man Armor, and they have some other colonel trying it out.

Both of which are possible, but seem unlikely to me.
See, I was under the impression that the Air-Force colonel in powered armour was that one person shown in Iron Man 2 when Stark is being questioned by the government (https://youtu.be/Cz1M5i5Y4Qc?t=112)- a man shown to have his spine damaged by defective experimental armour.

Strange is mentioned as a metahuman of note in Winter Soldier, so he was obviously already somewhat established at that point. This film has to have started before then at the very least.

[lord_khaine]

Early on, one of the cases Strange is offered in the car is an Air-force colonel who received spinal damage while using experimental powered armor.

It is highly implied that this is James Rhodes, whose spine was damaged during Civil War (How many other Air-Force colonels do you know running around in experimental power armor)


It has straight up been mentioned by the director or someone like him that its not Rhodes.
And it would also not fit with the fact. The guy mentioned in Dr Strange were a 35 year old air force colonel. But Rhodes is more like 45.

[Aotrs Commander]

It has straight up been mentioned by the director or someone like him that its not Rhodes.
And it would also not fit with the fact. The guy mentioned in Dr Strange were a 35 year old air force colonel. But Rhodes is more like 45.

Huh. I assumed it was Rhodes too.

But now that you mention it, is Rhodey even a colonel? Or even in the airforce now?

[The Glyphstone]

Besides, Rhodey didn't get injured from experimental power armor anyways - the War Machine suit may have been one (well, two) of a kind, but it had earned its way past the experimental designator by the time of Civil War. More circumstantial points for it being one of the attempted knockoff suits from IM2.

[Legato Endless]

Strange is mentioned as a metahuman of note in Winter Soldier, so he was obviously already somewhat established at that point. This film has to have started before then at the very least.

No he is not. Zola's system doesn't target metahumans, it targets people who threaten authoritarian regimes.

The Writer clarifies. (https://mobile.twitter.com/Massawyrm/status/795075625547689984)

The 2016'ers are correct.

[Ramza00]

The problem with the 35 year old guy being the same guy Hammer power armor from Iron Man 2 is that the timeline does not add up.

Remember one of the opening scenes of the movie, after leaving the hospital Dr. Strange gets suit and tied up in his pretty apartment with a big view. The scene starts with Strange shaving, followed by him straightening his tie.

Then we see a collection of certificates and awards, one of which says 2016 in the award title.

Then Strange picks a watch from a collection of watches in an expensive fancy drawer.

Then Strange gets into his car and drives around. Then Strange reviews the 3 cases of people he could do surgery on, he gets distracted with the 3rd case and gets in a car accident.

-----------

If he is receiving a 2016 reward, it is likely already 2016 prior to his training.

Iron Man 2 takes place much earlier in the MCU timeline. A quick google says Iron Man 2 takes place in 2011 during the MCU (the movie came out in 2010 though), with Stark launching the Stark Expo yearlong event in April 2011. (The Stark Expo is where the main battle of Iron Man 2 takes place)

-----------

We do not know who this 35 year old guy who got injured in a power armor. It also looks likely that the Dr. Strange movie took place in a time period less than a year.

[Tvtyrant]

The problem with the 35 year old guy being the same guy Hammer power armor from Iron Man 2 is that the timeline does not add up.

Remember one of the opening scenes of the movie, after leaving the hospital Dr. Strange gets suit and tied up in his pretty apartment with a big view. The scene starts with Strange shaving, followed by him straightening his tie.

Then we see a collection of certificates and awards, one of which says 2016 in the award title.

Then Strange picks a watch from a collection of watches in an expensive fancy drawer.

Then Strange gets into his car and drives around. Then Strange reviews the 3 cases of people he could do surgery on, he gets distracted with the 3rd case and gets in a car accident.

-----------

If he is receiving a 2016 reward, it is likely already 2016 prior to his training.

Iron Man 2 takes place much earlier in the MCU timeline. A quick google says Iron Man 2 takes place in 2011 during the MCU (the movie came out in 2010 though), with Stark launching the Stark Expo yearlong event in April 2011. (The Stark Expo is where the main battle of Iron Man 2 takes place)

-----------

We do not know who this 35 year old guy who got injured in a power armor. It also looks likely that the Dr. Strange movie took place in a time period less than a year.

Avengers sign on the tower pretty much proves it is in the current storyline.

[Rakaydos]

Avengers sign on the tower pretty much proves it is in the current storyline.

Not quite current timeline. Avengers retire Avenger Tower between Age of Ultron and AoU Epilogue/Ant man/Civil War

[Keltest]

Since nobody brought it up, not only is Strange a literal genius, he also has a photographic memory. Wong at one point asks him how he goes through books as quickly as he does. So that's how he learns so fast: he literally has the instruction manuals in his brain.

[brionl]

I get that, but how? Every book he read, save one, was available to everybody - and even the one that wasn't, he only read a few pages out of. That doesn't nearly explain his advantage over the rest. Even if he reads faster or more thoroughly than they do, they've had months of head start, what were they doing in all that time? And it's got to be more than mere smarts too - could Tony Stark or Reed Richards have just been able to show up and become the Sorcerer Supreme too? He has a throwaway line about having a photographic memory, and I can definitely see the usefulness of that to a wizard, but is that really all it takes?

I just find it a bit hard to swallow that in the Ancient One's entire millennia-long tenure, he's the first PhD-level candidate/person with an Int higher than 16 to show up for training in all that time. Or maybe others did, and he was just the first one to stick around on the doorstep after being thrown out. I guess I'm just hoping the second movie gives a bit more detail on what exactly sets him apart, because "I'm a pretty smart but otherwise regular guy who's just better at reading the books you all had access to for years" is kind of underwhelming as origins go. Throw some Inhuman in his genome or something I say.

It's just his Fate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Fate) to be the Sorcerer Supreme.

And oh please no, no Inhumans.

[Gray Mage]

He also studies in the astral plane while sleeping, which I don't think is a thing most of the students do. He's pretty much studying 24/7.

[Talakeal]

More like the movie starts aroung ironman 2, and Zolas Algorithum has spotted Strange popping from Hong Kong to New York to London without any flights before Cap 2 happens, studying sankirt books. Combining sorcery with strange's natural talents, and zola knew hed be a problem in the future.

Odd that the directr said the Rhodes thing was just a coincidence. I sure took it to be a civil war referance, and one of the guys in theater shouted "Rhodey!" and applauded at that point do I know I wasnt the only one.

Of course, the ant man people said the line about the new guy who climbs on walls wasnt a spider man refrance either, so maybe they are either really good at predicting things or really bad at denying it.

During the scene where he is getting dressed before his accident there is an award on his wall dated 2016.

Edit: Ninjad.

[ben-zayb]

It's just his Fate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Fate) to be the Sorcerer Supreme.

And oh please no, no Inhumans.

Quite a strange fate (http://amalgam.wikia.com/wiki/Doctor_Strangefate), then. Wouldn't you agree?

[Callos_DeTerran]

It is worth noting, for the purposes of Psyren's problem, that not everyone DOES have access to those books. The second library, where the book with the stolen ritual is, has restricted access to just master sorcerers (the Ancient One, masters of the sanctums, Mordo (?) ), Wong, and anyone Wong decides to allow into it...which is just Strange.

Strange's startingly quick talent is a combination of natural aptitude and being entrusted with advanced magical materials. It explains why he knows more than the others but, in a fight, he's not the best and is able to force Dormammu to the bargaining table with out-of-box thinking, selflessness, and sheer audacity.

[Ramza00]

One of the people who do HISHE went to the movie, and then did a review for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KItqE2ayQ4

Note this is not an animated How It Should Have Ended (HISHE, they do that superhero cafe plus other things) story but instead just a human beings thoughts after watching the movie.

That said I would so watch a team up with movie with Tilda Swinton playing the Ancient One, side by side with Laurence Fishburne playing Morpheus. Come on Netflix, do a doctor strange prequel and make this happen.

[JadedDM]

Scott Derrickson, the director, confirmed (https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/56w0q6/hey_everyone_reading_through_everything_will/d8mxv6y/) it was not Rhodey. It was just a throwaway line, not meant to reference anyone specific.

Quoting myself, since nobody seemed to notice the first time I said it. Confirmation from the director that the line was not referencing Rhodey or anyone else specifically.

[Cikomyr]

Hey guys, do you think the army colonel with the broken spine was Rhodey?! That would be so cool!!

[Eldan]

Quoting myself, since nobody seemed to notice the first time I said it. Confirmation from the director that the line was not referencing Rhodey or anyone else specifically.

Death of the Author. I say it was Rhodey.

[Ramza00]

Hey guys, do you think the army colonel with the broken spine was Rhodey?! That would be so cool!!

Stop with the south park references :smallwink:

[Cikomyr]

So i wanted to confirm that Cumberbatch was going to be in Ragnarok. I got to IMDB, and starts browsing through the list of supporting actors (about 3-4 down). Hmm.. hes not there. Lets start again.

Holy ****. The list goes:

1- Benedict Cumberbatch
2- Idris Elba
3- Chris Emsworth

Man. It must suck that you are 3rd billing in a movie you are the main AND title character.

The list of actors for that movie is impressive. Karl Urban, Cate Blanchett, Jeff Goldblum are all listed(!)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Man. It must suck that you are 3rd billing in a movie you are the main AND title character.

FWIW, they're not listed by billing order, but by IMDB's "STARmeter", whatever the heck that is.

GW

[Rogar Demonblud]

Among other things, reviews on the site. Plus it alpha sorts on occasion. Once the movie gets closer to release, they'll sort by order of appearance for majors, and alpha sort the rest.

[Talakeal]

You know, someone could do a great comedy skit with Zola explaining his algorithm to the people at hydra, and pointing out how the mathematics behind genre tropes lead to the certainty of certain surgeons reacting to an inevitable crippling accident to go on to become the sorcerer supreme or young science majors with alliterative names getting super-powers rather than cancer from excessive doses of radiation.

[Ramza00]

You know, someone could do a great comedy skit with Zola explaining his algorithm to the people at hydra, and pointing out how the mathematics behind genre tropes lead to the certainty of certain surgeons reacting to an inevitable crippling accident to go on to become the sorcerer supreme or young science majors with alliterative names getting super-powers rather than cancer from excessive doses of radiation.

Does it end with Shield sending a missile to the location blowing up the listeners and Zola for the good of the MCU, before Zola is done explaining the underlying logic of the algorithm?

Scene cut to a crossover with Nick Fury lecturing the mysterious heads of shield.

Nick Fury: Stupidass decision, nuclear strike against a civilian population

Nick Fury: Non Stupid decision, missile strike against a nazi computer.

[Eldan]

You could also end that sketch with a reveal that the audience listening to it is Lee's character.

[Legato Endless]

The alliterative name trope could be it's own gag really with a Chris Pratt type as the Hydra officer.

Zola goes into this long lecture about how the machine analyses meta data, constructs psychological profiles based on the targets' paper trail, search habits, youtube comments. Indexes likely genetic outliers for metahuman recruiting/elimination. And at the very end you see on the checklist: Kill all people with alliterative names.

Doctor what does that...?
Trust me there's a correlation.
Does that include pseudonyms?
Yes.
Legal name changes?
Yes!
How about titles where you combine them with the surname-
Yes!

[Friv]

Death of the Author. I say it was Rhodey.

I say that the idea that Don Cheadle is playing a 35-year old is a little too suspension-breaking for me.

(Doubly since it would mean that Rhodey was only 26 years old in Iron Man.)

[Kitten Champion]

I wonder why they included the line about the Air Force Colonel with a spinal injury. It seems to me that connecting it to the events of the very last Marvel Studios movie where something of that exact nature happened would be natural.

I only thought differently after reading this thread and recognizing that the events of the movie had to have taken place over a few years, particularly his decline in physical, mental, and financial status after the accident couldn't have been as instantaneous as the tight run-time of the first act would suggest. While chronology is somewhat obscured even in the relatively straightforward MCU, I can't see the actual narrative starting around Civil War and working logically.

It could be a reference to something else, sure -- as has been suggested here, I just don't see the equation in the writer's head where that bit is worth it.

[lord_khaine]

I think its very likely that it initially were meant to be a reference to something, but as the filming progressed it were recognised that it would clash with the rest of the marvel timeline.

[Rodin]

I wonder why they included the line about the Air Force Colonel with a spinal injury. It seems to me that connecting it to the events of the very last Marvel Studios movie where something of that exact nature happened would be natural.

I only thought differently after reading this thread and recognizing that the events of the movie had to have taken place over a few years, particularly his decline in physical, mental, and financial status after the accident couldn't have been as instantaneous as the tight run-time of the first act would suggest. While chronology is somewhat obscured even in the relatively straightforward MCU, I can't see the actual narrative starting around Civil War and working logically.

It could be a reference to something else, sure -- as has been suggested here, I just don't see the equation in the writer's head where that bit is worth it.

The problem as already noted is that it's established to take place in 2016 by other stuff - his awards prior to the accident and his TV appearance (which the MCU timeline wiki page places as May 3rd, 2016).

Basically, I think they screwed up the timeline. They could have easily pushed it back to happen over a period of years - a couple for him to lose all his money and fail all his treatments, and then a good 5+ years spent training. Instead, they did the usual Hollywood thing and compressed it down into a ludicrously short time-frame. Apparently he managed to have numerous experimental surgeries and treatments for his hands within a few months, also running through his massive wealth during the same few months, and then managed to master magic in a similar period. And since the whole story is basically separate from the MCU, it doesn't need to clash with anything - nothing that occurs is notable right up until the climax, which can be set around the time of Civil War with nothing lost.

[Hopeless]

There is evidence mostly explained by the Ancient One before her death, that she had used the Eye of Agamotto and realised she was fated to die with the most likely replacement being Stephen Strange as the one with the best chance of success

Given Kaecilius recognised what Strange was doing why didn't he steal the Eye himself?

I still don't know why he killed the Librarian instead of knocking him out and stealing as many of the forbidden books he could before separating into groups to maximise his chances of escaping?

They blew up the London branch so I assume they didn't bother looting it beforehand?

Seriously imagine if they recruited a group of role players!!!:smallamused:

[Eldan]

There is evidence mostly explained by the Ancient One before her death, that she had used the Eye of Agamotto and realised she was fated to die with the most likely replacement being Stephen Strange as the one with the best chance of success

Given Kaecilius recognised what Strange was doing why didn't he steal the Eye himself?

Probably thematic reasons? Kaecilius gave overcoming time and death as his motivations. (Honestly, I'm annoyed that overcoming death is always a villain motivation in all fiction. I like overcoming death. I think it's an admirable goal.)

[Kantaki]

Probably thematic reasons? Kaecilius gave overcoming time and death as his motivations. (Honestly, I'm annoyed that overcoming death is always a villain motivation in all fiction. I like overcoming death. I think it's an admirable goal.)

Sure, the goal isn't bad, the problem is that the bad guys are willing to achieve immortality no matter the cost.
I mean as nice the whole not dying thing is, it wouldn't be worth living in Dormamu’s dimension in all eternity.
Not to mention all the deaths they caused to get there.

And that's without getting into other problems.
Most importantly the inevitable boredom.

[Ramza00]

(Honestly, I'm annoyed that overcoming death is always a villain motivation in all fiction. I like overcoming death. I think it's an admirable goal.)

Overcoming death for everyone is so against the normal way of things (natural law) that human beings can't keep the immersive sublimation into the story in a way that feels real. Part of us just can't believe the story.

Thus stories involving man who wants such dreams always from a narrative point of view turn into tragedies and specifically the style of high tragedy. High Tragedies is a story where you know at the end that the hero / protagonist is going to fail in his quest and not achieve the goal he seeks out at the start of the tale. Yes viewers / readers still do the story anyway for it is the journey that is the important part of the story and not whether the hero in the end gets what he wants or he fails on the way.

[Blue Lantern]

(Honestly, I'm annoyed that overcoming death is always a villain motivation in all fiction. I like overcoming death. I think it's an admirable goal.)

Probably because is the kind of thing that sounds nice at first glance but has a lot of nasty consequences when you start to think about it in depth.

That makes for a good motivation for villains that are supposed to be, or at least start, somewhat sympathetic.

[SaintRidley]

The problem as already noted is that it's established to take place in 2016 by other stuff - his awards prior to the accident and his TV appearance (which the MCU timeline wiki page places as May 3rd, 2016).

Basically, I think they screwed up the timeline. They could have easily pushed it back to happen over a period of years - a couple for him to lose all his money and fail all his treatments, and then a good 5+ years spent training. Instead, they did the usual Hollywood thing and compressed it down into a ludicrously short time-frame. Apparently he managed to have numerous experimental surgeries and treatments for his hands within a few months, also running through his massive wealth during the same few months, and then managed to master magic in a similar period. And since the whole story is basically separate from the MCU, it doesn't need to clash with anything - nothing that occurs is notable right up until the climax, which can be set around the time of Civil War with nothing lost.

As full of himself and his own self-importance as Strange is, I could totally see him disregarding all reasonable medical advice that he would normally know is important about recovery times and the slow process of physical therapy because he feels he's too good for that.

Still means his magic training is really short, but the medical aspects? Eh, sounds about right for him.

[Hopeless]

Regarding the Air Force Colonel with the back injury, how young can they be to have earned that rank?

What if the person hurt in that Hammer experimental armour has been in hospital because of that injury and they're approaching Strange now about treating him?

Say about 5 years or so given Iron Man 2 was about 2011 and its been confirmed its 2016 prior to the car accident?

I'm more wondering about the young woman with the cybernetic brain implant intended to counter schizophrenia that's been hit by lightning?

Could this have been another of the TAHITI programs except they used a different process to deal with the hallucinations brought on by the G35 or whatever it was called induced in the subjects?

[Legato Endless]

Regarding the Air Force Colonel with the back injury, how young can they be to have earned that rank?

In the real world, the youngest Lt. Colonels are 38-42. Your average Colonel is in their upper 40s. Which makes MCU's Warmachine a realistic outlier compared to a lot of fiction. Ms. Marvel is canonically a full Colonel at a mere 31 years old. Somehow. The only real world explanation for this (beyond some massive military corruption) is if the upper ranks were depleted or inadequate, such as during revolution. Considering the casting of Brigh Larson (26 currently), I'm wondering if they'll lower her rank to be more realistic. Or the MCU simply doesn't have service time required for it's ranks, in which case the injured Colonel could be 18 for all we know.


I'm more wondering about the young woman with the cybernetic brain implant intended to counter schizophrenia that's been hit by lightning?

Lodestone maybe?


Overcoming death for everyone is so against the normal way of things (natural law) that human beings can't keep the immersive sublimation into the story in a way that feels real. Part of us just can't believe the story.

The extreme popularity of the Culture Novels suggests otherwise.



Thus stories involving man who wants such dreams always from a narrative point of view turn into tragedies and specifically the style of high tragedy.

Not really. The Sandman has a fairly upbeat philosophical take on a man wanting and getting this very thing. I'm not saying this is plausible in the real world, but stories with an upbeat take on the issue do exist and evidently a lot of people suspend disbelief for them.

Other examples:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LivingForeverIsAwesome

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LivingForeverIsNoBigDeal

[Ramza00]

@Legato

Endless life for all humans on the planet is anti - immerisive. Individual immortality or immortality to small groups are different. Thus your two trope links are filled with stories involving almost all of the latter instead of stories where everyone on earth gets to life forever and there is no death.

[gomipile]

@Legato

Endless life for all humans on the planet is anti - immerisive. Individual immortality or immortality to small groups are different. Thus your two trope links are filled with stories involving almost all of the latter instead of stories where everyone on earth gets to life forever and there is no death.

Peter F. Hamilton's Commonwealth series, starting with Pandora's Star(Misspent Youth is a prequel to it, too,) shows a society which eventually progresses to a situation where everyone can live as long as they want to, barring catastrophic accidents. By the time of the Void Trilogy, there are many planets full of humans who can live as long as they like, and there are characters who have lived for over 1500 years in their original physical bodies.

[Olinser]

In the real world, the youngest Lt. Colonels are 38-42. Your average Colonel is in their upper 40s. Which makes MCU's Warmachine a realistic outlier compared to a lot of fiction. Ms. Marvel is canonically a full Colonel at a mere 31 years old. Somehow. The only real world explanation for this (beyond some massive military corruption) is if the upper ranks were depleted or inadequate, such as during revolution. Considering the casting of Brigh Larson (26 currently), I'm wondering if they'll lower her rank to be more realistic. Or the MCU simply doesn't have service time required for it's ranks, in which case the injured Colonel could be 18 for all we know.



Lodestone maybe?



The extreme popularity of the Culture Novels suggests otherwise.



Not really. The Sandman has a fairly upbeat philosophical take on a man wanting and getting this very thing. I'm not saying this is plausible in the real world, but stories with an upbeat take on the issue do exist and evidently a lot of people suspend disbelief for them.

Other examples:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LivingForeverIsAwesome

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LivingForeverIsNoBigDeal

Minimum time in service in the US is actually set down in a law, and for O-5 (Lt Colonel), it is 16 years in service.

With that in mind you COULD get all the way to down a legitimate 33 year old Lt Colonel - if they enlisted at 17, attended college while still being in service and went through one of the mustang programs to become an officer before 7 years in service, then got promoted first board eligible every time.

[Legato Endless]

@Legato

Endless life for all humans on the planet is anti - immerisive. Individual immortality or immortality to small groups are different. Thus your two trope links are filled with stories involving almost all of the latter instead of stories where everyone on earth gets to life forever and there is no death.

No, because along with Gomiphile's examples, the Culture series deals with an entire immortal civilization. Speculative fiction has marketability spilled a decent amount of ink where people in general do not die. Suspension of disbelief is very subjective. Death isn't really an outlier there.


Minimum time in service in the US is actually set down in a law, and for O-5 (Lt Colonel), it is 16 years in service.

With that in mind you COULD get all the way to down a legitimate 33 year old Lt Colonel - if they enlisted at 17, attended college while still being in service and went through one of the mustang programs to become an officer before 7 years in service, then got promoted first board eligible every time.

Ah, interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

[Eldan]

I'm more wondering about the young woman with the cybernetic brain implant intended to counter schizophrenia that's been hit by lightning?

Could this have been another of the TAHITI programs except they used a different process to deal with the hallucinations brought on by the G35 or whatever it was called induced in the subjects?

Could be an allusion, could just be an extreme medical case. Brain implants to suppress some disorders are already a thing.

[Aotrs Commander]

(Honestly, I'm annoyed that overcoming death is always a villain motivation in all fiction. I like overcoming death. I think it's an admirable goal.)

I was going to agree and say that I am totally with you, but then realised that it really wouldn't help your case in the slightest, because I am fracking Evil...

[brionl]

I wonder why they included the line about the Air Force Colonel with a spinal injury. It seems to me that connecting it to the events of the very last Marvel Studios movie where something of that exact nature happened would be natural.

I only thought differently after reading this thread and recognizing that the events of the movie had to have taken place over a few years, particularly his decline in physical, mental, and financial status after the accident couldn't have been as instantaneous as the tight run-time of the first act would suggest. While chronology is somewhat obscured even in the relatively straightforward MCU, I can't see the actual narrative starting around Civil War and working logically.

It could be a reference to something else, sure -- as has been suggested here, I just don't see the equation in the writer's head where that bit is worth it.

It's been said already in this thread a couple of times, that it's most likely a reference to the person injured testing the Hammer-tech knock-off suit in Iron Man 3.

[The Glyphstone]

2, not 3. But someone else said that the dates on the certificates in his office mean it can't be the IM2 Hammertech pilot.

[Kitten Champion]

Could be an allusion, could just be an extreme medical case. Brain implants to suppress some disorders are already a thing.

While I doubt it, in the sense that the movie and Netflix people don't really work on the same page, but it might be a roundabout setup for Typhoid Mary.

She's a Mutant in canon - despite largely being associated with Daredevil - but obviously can't be in the MCU. A brain implant that goes haywire after a lightning strike and gives a young woman with schizophrenia minor psychic abilities would be the kind of thing they'd do with that character.

[Olinser]

2, not 3. But someone else said that the dates on the certificates in his office mean it can't be the IM2 Hammertech pilot.

Well, it can't be the SAME pilot. It could easily be a different pilot with a similar accident.

[Red Fel]

Not much to add that hasn't been said, except one thing.

In the post-post-credits scene, I basically heard Mordo say, "I'm not going to live there... There's no place for me there, any more than there is for you. Malcolm, I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

Because he's yet again playing a flawed Inspector Javert character. Doing it brilliantly, but there it is.

And therein lies my one problem with Movie!Mordo. I get the inflexible Javert thing he has going on. My problem is this - he takes offense, and his leave, because The Ancient Swinton and Benedict Strange have broken THE RULES. The problem is that he learned those rules from the Ancient One, and any remotely logical person would therefore question the credibility of the rules based upon the questionable credibility of their originator.

Or, to put it differently: The cult leader tells you that you must never leave the compound, for everyone who does so is corrupted by the outside. Then you discover that the cult leader regularly leaves the compound. Does that more likely mean that (a) the cult leader has become corrupt, or (b) the cult leader made that crap up? Smart person says (b), but Mordo, because narrative demands it, adheres to the code given by the very person who broke that code.

He's a nutter, mate.

As for the Air Force Colonel,
That can't seriously be a mystery, can it? At the end of Civil War, Rhodes - promoted to Air Force Colonel in Iron Man 3, if memory serves - his spine crushed while wearing the War Machine armor, is in rehab. That one's pretty obvious, isn't it?

[The Glyphstone]

Cults are frequently like that in RL, though. A sufficiently charismatic cult leader can get away with breaking the rules they set for their disciples, and most of the disciples won't ever think to question them on it. So it's actually quite realistic in that sense.

[Red Fel]

Cults are frequently like that in RL, though. A sufficiently charismatic cult leader can get away with breaking the rules they set for their disciples, and most of the disciples won't ever think to question them on it. So it's actually quite realistic in that sense.

Perhaps. But that works only while the cultists remain in their leader's thrall. That has ceased to be the case, here, so why continue to adhere to the idea that there are even rules to break?

[SaintRidley]

A sufficiently logical person might conclude that way. Or they might conclude that the rules are a really good idea despite the rulemaker's failure to live up to them. Logic doesn't dictate any single correct path on this.

[Rodin]

A sufficiently logical person might conclude that way. Or they might conclude that the rules are a really good idea despite the rulemaker's failure to live up to them. Logic doesn't dictate any single correct path on this.

It also helps that the teachings themselves are 100% correct. It is dangerous as hell to meddle with that stuff.

[Legato Endless]

Perhaps. But that works only while the cultists remain in their leader's thrall. That has ceased to be the case, here, so why continue to adhere to the idea that there are even rules to break?

Because it's too old and institutionalized to be a cult in the sense it's applied here. When a member of a powerful longstanding orthodox group finds an ideological impass with the leadership, 99% they don't leave, they schism.

[SuperPanda]

Finally saw it and loved it.

Re Mordo and post-post-credits:

My take here was less that he was a nutter and more that he started looking at things differently.

He joins the sorcerer cult and the Ancient one tells him "sorcerers are necessary to protect natural law" - we will assume that he is involved in some of those fights long before Strange shows up.

Other cult member goes traitor and makes a cult about perverting natural law.

Cult leader turns out to be a hypocrite directly responsible for the current crisis because she broke natural law.

Strange saves the day by breaking natural law.

Mordo goes away to think about it and comes to the conclusion that what sorcerers really do is delay payment of the debt that reality owes natural law. If the debt can be paid there will be peace/good things (in his mind) - so he sets out to destroy all who oppose it.

So he went from extremist champion of the weak to extremist witch-hunter because he decided that all bad things happening were the fault of so-called heroes. (So he went Civil War on magical MCU).

[GloatingSwine]

The extreme popularity of the Culture Novels suggests otherwise.


Tangental point of order: Whilst the Culture is capable of biological immortality, people there tend to get bored of it after 300-400 years and voluntarily die. Sometimes with an option of reincarnation from a stored backup if something really interesting happens.

Living forever is possible, but unfashionable (and whilst the Culture claims to enable the ultimate in individual expression, voluntarily conforming to the current fashions is inherent in its behaviour because, well, it's made of people and that's what they do).

[Pex]

Since I don't read comics, I only knew of Doctor Strange peripherally from old 1970's & 80's superhero cartoon shows where he shows up for one episode. I couldn't even tell you what show, when, or the plot. I did remember what he looked like, so I understood the importance of the film's fan service emphasizing Strange shaving to his Van Dyke beard and the cape choosing him. The film did a good job explaining to me what was happening and why. I was never lost.

[DiscipleofBob]

As for the Air Force Colonel,
That can't seriously be a mystery, can it? At the end of Civil War, Rhodes - promoted to Air Force Colonel in Iron Man 3, if memory serves - his spine crushed while wearing the War Machine armor, is in rehab. That one's pretty obvious, isn't it?

That's actually been debunked by WoG.
In an interview with the director, he was asked if the colonel referenced in that scene was Rhodes. The director replied that he liked the idea, but the overall timeline of the MCU makes that impossible, so it's more likely one of the failed experimental armors referenced in Iron Man 2.

Curiously enough, when asked about the girl in her 20's with the chip in her brain struck by lightning, he didn't confirm anything, but heavily hinted that the girl might be Carol Danvers. Exactly how that meshes with her backstory I have no idea.

[BWR]

Just got back from seeing it and I was pleased with it. Good writing, amazing reality-warping scenes and solid performances and a clever resolution to the BBEG that didn't involve basically hitting things.

Which brings us to the bits I didn't like. The action was pretty terrible. Cluttered, confusing and flashing and not terribly exciting. Also, if these people are wizards, why do they only do wuxia stuff in actual combat? Why not use actual interesting magic instead of 'hit with magic weapon' or jumping around and punching things? Seems like a waste of opportunity. The reality warping stuff was visually cool but rather ineffective and I can only assume inefficient as well. The 3D was a bit in your face at start but got better.

[Eurus]

Just got back from seeing it and I was pleased with it. Good writing, amazing reality-warping scenes and solid performances and a clever resolution to the BBEG that didn't involve basically hitting things.

Which brings us to the bits I didn't like. The action was pretty terrible. Cluttered, confusing and flashing and not terribly exciting. Also, if these people are wizards, why do they only do wuxia stuff in actual combat? Why not use actual interesting magic instead of 'hit with magic weapon' or jumping around and punching things? Seems like a waste of opportunity. The reality warping stuff was visually cool but rather ineffective and I can only assume inefficient as well. The 3D was a bit in your face at start but got better.

It seemed to me like most magic just wasn't fast enough to be much use in a fight. Spending a few seconds casting a spell when someone is trying to cut you in half with a magic sword is probably not the best use of your time. Space-folding, for whatever odd reason, seems to take less concentration than most other magic, so you can combine it with the sword-fighting.

That's the Watsonian answer, anyway. The Doylist answer is probably "this was the easiest way to make it look cool". I was a little disappointed in the lack of more creative magic myself.

[Hopeless]

That's actually been debunked by WoG.
In an interview with the director, he was asked if the colonel referenced in that scene was Rhodes. The director replied that he liked the idea, but the overall timeline of the MCU makes that impossible, so it's more likely one of the failed experimental armors referenced in Iron Man 2.

Curiously enough, when asked about the girl in her 20's with the chip in her brain struck by lightning, he didn't confirm anything, but heavily hinted that the girl might be Carol Danvers. Exactly how that meshes with her backstory I have no idea.

Could that implant be because of TAHITI?
It wouldn't be the first time a person has been misdiagnosed and treated improperly?

Would love if they do an AoS episode where Coulson learns about this and goes to help her recover revealing why she suffering from hallucinations?

Be a good way to have a cameo wouldn't it?!:smallredface:

I agree about the spinal injury victim though.

[Kato]

Which brings us to the bits I didn't like. The action was pretty terrible. Cluttered, confusing and flashing and not terribly exciting. Also, if these people are wizards, why do they only do wuxia stuff in actual combat? Why not use actual interesting magic instead of 'hit with magic weapon' or jumping around and punching things? Seems like a waste of opportunity. The reality warping stuff was visually cool but rather ineffective and I can only assume inefficient as well. The 3D was a bit in your face at start but got better.

I wouldn't call the action terrible, though I have seen much better. But then, it kind of goes against your other point, no?
I will admit, I'm only a tangential comic reader so I don't know how exactly Stephen usually resolves his problems but to me it seems if the fights were just (or more) "but my spell is bigger than yours" the action would have been even worse. Maybe more cgi explosions or beams or something, but not better.
Of course there are ways to combine martial arts and magic more impressively but... I'm fine with how they did it. I wasn't in the movie mainly for the action, though.

[ben-zayb]

I'd appreciate a pure-magic duel that doesn't involve wandlightsabers, but I'll take Wuxia+Magic over this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)

[Red Fel]

Admittedly, the combat was frequently dizzying, and the two justifications for the special effects probably boiled down to "the comics were visually trippy, so these scenes should be too," and "we need to justify our SFX budget." (To be fair, this is one of the few films that actually uses the 3D effects quite well, as opposed to arbitrarily cramming them in.)

That said, having combat that involves using the world instead of, say, fireballs or something, I think was rather clever. Here's why: Think about other MCU films. Almost universally, the protagonist wins through application of force. Sometimes it's particularly clever, but it always down to pointing the right metaphorical missile at the right target.

The combat in this film wasn't, generally, about the application of force. Or, more specifically, the protagonist's combat scenes weren't about force. Why? Because he's inept. Prodigy, perhaps, but the movie makes clear that he is not a Sorcerer Supreme yet. And when he fights K.C. Masterpiece Barbecue Sauce and his Legion of Emo-Eyes, that's abundantly clear. Strange is very good at running away, not so great at fighting. Heck, his cape is a more effective combatant than he is. By contrast, he is fighting a master, and one who has been juicing on Dark Dimension roids.

No, what Strange has is creativity. He comes up with solutions which do not involve the application of force. Kicking enemies through a teleportation window, then shutting it. Trapping an Elder God in a time loop. Banishing Supercilious by appealing to his patron, rather than just fighting him directly. These are examples of using magic, not as a bludgeon, but as a world-shifting tool that adjusts the odds in his favor. In that sense, it's actually very smart that the combat scenes - or at least, Strange's combat scenes - involve leaping and world-shifting, as opposed to abundant fireballs and laser swords. It makes sense, because in a laser sword duel, Strange stands no chance. His hands are weak, his skills are inferior, his experience is nil. But in a turn-the-world-into-a-jigsaw-puzzle duel, he can balance the scales by out-thinking his opponent. Further, doing so keeps his enemies from using those giant fireballs or laser swords, since they need to concentrate on not getting eaten by that window that just turned into a woodchipper.

[Ramza00]

Admittedly, the combat was frequently dizzying, and the two justifications for the special effects probably boiled down to "the comics were visually trippy, so these scenes should be too," and "we need to justify our SFX budget." (To be fair, this is one of the few films that actually uses the 3D effects quite well, as opposed to arbitrarily cramming them in.)

That said, having combat that involves using the world instead of, say, fireballs or something, I think was rather clever. Here's why: Think about other MCU films. Almost universally, the protagonist wins through application of force. Sometimes it's particularly clever, but it always down to pointing the right metaphorical missile at the right target.

The combat in this film wasn't, generally, about the application of force. Or, more specifically, the protagonist's combat scenes weren't about force. Why? Because he's inept. Prodigy, perhaps, but the movie makes clear that he is not a Sorcerer Supreme yet. And when he fights K.C. Masterpiece Barbecue Sauce and his Legion of Emo-Eyes, that's abundantly clear. Strange is very good at running away, not so great at fighting. Heck, his cape is a more effective combatant than he is. By contrast, he is fighting a master, and one who has been juicing on Dark Dimension roids.

No, what Strange has is creativity. He comes up with solutions which do not involve the application of force. Kicking enemies through a teleportation window, then shutting it. Trapping an Elder God in a time loop. Banishing Supercilious by appealing to his patron, rather than just fighting him directly. These are examples of using magic, not as a bludgeon, but as a world-shifting tool that adjusts the odds in his favor. In that sense, it's actually very smart that the combat scenes - or at least, Strange's combat scenes - involve leaping and world-shifting, as opposed to abundant fireballs and laser swords. It makes sense, because in a laser sword duel, Strange stands no chance. His hands are weak, his skills are inferior, his experience is nil. But in a turn-the-world-into-a-jigsaw-puzzle duel, he can balance the scales by out-thinking his opponent. Further, doing so keeps his enemies from using those giant fireballs or laser swords, since they need to concentrate on not getting eaten by that window that just turned into a woodchipper.

Here is the short version of Red Fel's point



Jarvis, where is my hammer?

https://media1.popsugar-assets.com/files/thumbor/Z8z8GHrpZkWV5Qi2Q-T3snQq2jk/fit-in/1024x1024/filters:format_auto-!!-:strip_icc-!!-/2013/04/29/768/n/1922283/93bb87a8801ccfbb_2008_iron_man_005/i/Iron-Man.jpg


Nurse, where is my scalpel?
http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/570df789dd0895c3728b4760-1200/this-is-doctor-stephen-strange-one-of-the-best-neurosurgeons-in-the-world.jpg

[BWR]

*snip*]

I mostly agree with you in principle, but the issue is that all the fancy CGI-heavy reality warping didn't really do much other than look good. Strange knocks two people out through a window and that's it as far as thinking outside the box did until the final showdown. IIRC the Ancient One got maybe a couple more. Far more mooks were taken out by various magicalized kung fu moves than twisting buildings and variable gravity. As I said, cool but rather ineffective.

@ Kato: How am I contradicting myself?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Regarding the Air Force Colonel with the back injury, how young can they be to have earned that rank?

Generally late 30s-early 40s, but that can be accelerated by bloody wars, sickly seasons, being a Big Damn Hero or having a lot of people get arrested for being HYDRA agents.

More stupid is them always making Thunderbolt Ross a four-star (i.e., Joint Chiefs or CINCPAC level) general.

Anyway, given several wars and the ubiquity of car accidents and plane/helo crashes, the colonel could be anyone. It may even be a reference to Colonel Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel, with that movie coming up.

[Keltest]

I mostly agree with you in principle, but the issue is that all the fancy CGI-heavy reality warping didn't really do much other than look good. Strange knocks two people out through a window and that's it as far as thinking outside the box did until the final showdown. IIRC the Ancient One got maybe a couple more. Far more mooks were taken out by various magicalized kung fu moves than twisting buildings and variable gravity. As I said, cool but rather ineffective.

@ Kato: How am I contradicting myself?

it kept Strange and co running around and generally off balance. he was running around and falling, a lot. Strange had just enough magical power to not get outright killed by direct magical attacks against him, so the reality shifting was meant to back him into a corner where he couldn't run away or maintain the concentration needed to counter attacks against him.

Plus, the bad guys probably liked showing it off. They definitely seemed full of themselves.

[Kato]

@ Kato: How am I contradicting myself?
Only somewhat... you said the action wasn't great but you wanted more magic. Where I feel most magic battles tend to be... less action-y. Think Harry Potter's wand beam struggles or... come to think of it, there aren't that many movies off the top of my head with large magic battles. Or I'm just having trouble remembering them.
My point is, the average magic battle I think of, is wizards throwing spells at each other, i.e. big CGI fireworks. Which I think don't make for good action, just good... well, fireworks.
As I said, there are ways to combine magic and action well, but right now I'd have a hard time thinking of a good example, so in general more magic = worse action.

[Blackhawk748]

Saw it, loved it, especially the end.


I love how he beats Dormammu, its classic Strange, outfox your opponent into doing what you want.

As for how Dormammu looked, while i would have preferred this:
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/villainstournament/images/0/0a/Dormammu_2.png/revision/latest?cb=20140616215048
or this:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/aa/e6/de/aae6de3d3ca2d392b1c1346a93ff7041.jpg

I am perfectly happy with what we got. I got enough of a hint of flames that i could ID him immediately and he was sufficiently terrifying enough that i felt he was a true threat. Still hope to see him in hi suit walking around at some point though.

[Talakeal]

Saw it, loved it, especially the end.


I love how he beats Dormammu, its classic Strange, outfox your opponent into doing what you want.

As for how Dormammu looked, while i would have preferred this:
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/villainstournament/images/0/0a/Dormammu_2.png/revision/latest?cb=20140616215048
or this:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/aa/e6/de/aae6de3d3ca2d392b1c1346a93ff7041.jpg

I am perfectly happy with what we got. I got enough of a hint of flames that i could ID him immediately and he was sufficiently terrifying enough that i felt he was a true threat. Still hope to see him in hi suit walking around at some point though.


I honestly felt that he was just too similar to Thanos; both being mysterious guys with purple eyes and wrinkly faces.

[Blackhawk748]

I honestly felt that he was just too similar to Thanos; both being mysterious guys with purple eyes and wrinkly faces.

Eh we only got to see his head, and since hes a being made up almost entirely of mystic power he can look however he pleases. Not saying it couldnt have been better, but i thought it was ok.

[KillingAScarab]

Admittedly, the combat was frequently dizzying, and the two justifications for the special effects probably boiled down to "the comics were visually trippy, so these scenes should be too," and "we need to justify our SFX budget." (To be fair, this is one of the few films that actually uses the 3D effects quite well, as opposed to arbitrarily cramming them in.)

That said, having combat that involves using the world instead of, say, fireballs or something, I think was rather clever. Here's why: Think about other MCU films. Almost universally, the protagonist wins through application of force. Sometimes it's particularly clever, but it always down to pointing the right metaphorical missile at the right target.

The combat in this film wasn't, generally, about the application of force. Or, more specifically, the protagonist's combat scenes weren't about force. Why? Because he's inept. Prodigy, perhaps, but the movie makes clear that he is not a Sorcerer Supreme yet. And when he fights K.C. Masterpiece Barbecue Sauce and his Legion of Emo-Eyes, that's abundantly clear. Strange is very good at running away, not so great at fighting. Heck, his cape is a more effective combatant than he is. By contrast, he is fighting a master, and one who has been juicing on Dark Dimension roids.

No, what Strange has is creativity. He comes up with solutions which do not involve the application of force. Kicking enemies through a teleportation window, then shutting it. Trapping an Elder God in a time loop. Banishing Supercilious by appealing to his patron, rather than just fighting him directly. These are examples of using magic, not as a bludgeon, but as a world-shifting tool that adjusts the odds in his favor. In that sense, it's actually very smart that the combat scenes - or at least, Strange's combat scenes - involve leaping and world-shifting, as opposed to abundant fireballs and laser swords. It makes sense, because in a laser sword duel, Strange stands no chance. His hands are weak, his skills are inferior, his experience is nil. But in a turn-the-world-into-a-jigsaw-puzzle duel, he can balance the scales by out-thinking his opponent. Further, doing so keeps his enemies from using those giant fireballs or laser swords, since they need to concentrate on not getting eaten by that window that just turned into a woodchipper.I would also like to add that the Hippocratic Oath can be viewed as upheld by the solution Doctor Strange enacts.


I honestly felt that he was just too similar to Thanos; both being mysterious guys with purple eyes and wrinkly faces.I came across this explanation for the face in this video on easter eggs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZrAFa1JdCw&t=5m17s) by Mr Sunday Movies.

[Kitten Champion]

I suspect they went with purple for Dormammu because the default colour they chose to represent their usual magic was a bright yellow with a red haze around it (for a variety of reasons, its more Earthly-looking for one, and likely shows up best on film in various levels of lighting for another) and they wanted to contrast that both with Dormammu's scheme as well as the Eye of Agamotto's green colouring.

Like so

https://images.creators.co/images/c_limit,q_auto,w_710/attukbplof50e6c6bze5/dormammu-doctor-strange-2016.jpg

[BWR]

Only somewhat... you said the action wasn't great but you wanted more magic. Where I feel most magic battles tend to be... less action-y. Think Harry Potter's wand beam struggles or... come to think of it, there aren't that many movies off the top of my head with large magic battles. Or I'm just having trouble remembering them.
My point is, the average magic battle I think of, is wizards throwing spells at each other, i.e. big CGI fireworks. Which I think don't make for good action, just good... well, fireworks.
As I said, there are ways to combine magic and action well, but right now I'd have a hard time thinking of a good example, so in general more magic = worse action.

I wanted the magic to be different, not necessarily more of it. More 'using magic in fun ways rather than enhancing punches', not 'more magic in general'

[Tvtyrant]

I wanted the magic to be different, not necessarily more of it. More 'using magic in fun ways rather than enhancing punches', not 'more magic in general'

I think the problem is, as always with magic, how to use it in a way that is physically representable and also not completely overpowering. Turning the oxygen content in the air up to the point where your opponent rapidly dies of oxygen poisoning, or extracting raw potassium from a fruit cart to make into bombs, or slightly decreasing the strength of the weak force in a given area so everyone dissolves into base element soup are all impossible to show on film and make everything else in the setting superflous.

Heck, the things they could do with their teleporter batons are incredible and barely touched upon. Open one into space to suck enemies out into the vacuum, open one into the sun to kill everything, bottom of the ocean to put out fires, the sky is literally not the limit.

[FreddyNoNose]

I really enjoy this movie! How they introduced the magic aspect was very well done.

[Clertar]

Re. Dormammu's look, they animated it from motion capture of Benedict Cumberbatch. The reasoning is that Dormammu is a magical entity, not something with a body (and less so an anthropomorphic body). When he has to interact with Stephen Strange, he reflects Strange's face as a communication interface.

[Eldan]

I think the problem is, as always with magic, how to use it in a way that is physically representable and also not completely overpowering. Turning the oxygen content in the air up to the point where your opponent rapidly dies of oxygen poisoning, or extracting raw potassium from a fruit cart to make into bombs, or slightly decreasing the strength of the weak force in a given area so everyone dissolves into base element soup are all impossible to show on film and make everything else in the setting superflous.

Heck, the things they could do with their teleporter batons are incredible and barely touched upon. Open one into space to suck enemies out into the vacuum, open one into the sun to kill everything, bottom of the ocean to put out fires, the sky is literally not the limit.

Colonize Mars. Dump radioactive waste on the moon.

But then, we're never told how far their teleport power goes. They need to be able to picture it, so I assume the interior of the sun is out. If photos work, Mars ahoy.

[Cikomyr]

Would anyone know the power level comparison between Dormanmum (?) And Thanos armed with a full Infinity Gauntlet with all the stones?

[BWR]

Dump radioactive waste on the moon.

Bad idea. That results in the Moon being blasted out of orbit and sent hurtling through the cosmos.

[Leewei]

Would anyone know the power level comparison between Dormanmum (?) And Thanos armed with a full Infinity Gauntlet with all the stones?

I'm pretty sure this one would go to Thanos. Strange had a single stone and was able to "negotiate" with Dormammu. The gauntlet would have all six stones.

[Red Fel]

Would anyone know the power level comparison between Dormanmum (?) And Thanos armed with a full Infinity Gauntlet with all the stones?

It's complicated.

On the one hand, Dormammu is the Sovereign of the Dark Dimension, a nigh-omnipotent entity within his realm. But his power is limited to the Dark Dimension; he can only act on other dimensions through agents, or by bringing those dimensions into the Dark Dimension. Outside of the Dark Dimension, defeating Dormammu is as trivial as defeating his pawns; within the Dark Dimension, the only way to stop him is to trick or trap him into agreeing to be defeated.

On the other hand, while Thanos is known as the Mad Titan, he's not literally a deity. That said, with the power of all of the Infinity Stones, he can literally rewrite every aspect of reality at will, whenever and however he wants. And in the comics, he actually did this - wiping out and creating life and existence as he saw fit. The only way the fully-powered Thanos was defeated (other than by Squirrel Girl) was when he voluntarily relinquished the power, for reasons; otherwise stopping him was a literal impossibility, as he could know your every action and decision, and prevent or unmake it, at will.

So we really need to put things in context, but short version is that Thanos, with all of the Stones, is at least as powerful as Dormammu, without any limitation.

[brionl]

Just got back from seeing it and I was pleased with it. Good writing, amazing reality-warping scenes and solid performances and a clever resolution to the BBEG that didn't involve basically hitting things.

Which brings us to the bits I didn't like. The action was pretty terrible. Cluttered, confusing and flashing and not terribly exciting. Also, if these people are wizards, why do they only do wuxia stuff in actual combat? Why not use actual interesting magic instead of 'hit with magic weapon' or jumping around and punching things? Seems like a waste of opportunity. The reality warping stuff was visually cool but rather ineffective and I can only assume inefficient as well. The 3D was a bit in your face at start but got better.

At least it wasn't as lame as the "Wizard Duel" between Gandalf and Saruman.

[Psyren]

Did this one happen in Dorm's dimension?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111112612/2970429-1042755726-26686.jpg

[brionl]

I'd appreciate a pure-magic duel that doesn't involve wandlightsabers, but I'll take Wuxia+Magic over this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)

You know that that is comedy, right? There have been several really good magical battles in OOTS. Plus there's a follow-up bit to that battle here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html).

[Cikomyr]

All right. I suppose the real question i had was "do the Infinity Stone cover all realities - including the Dark Dimension - or just our reality?"

[Keltest]

All right. I suppose the real question i had was "do the Infinity Stone cover all realities - including the Dark Dimension - or just our reality?"

given that the Time Stone worked in the Dark Dimension, I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes, all of them cover all dimensions.

[Talakeal]

All right. I suppose the real question i had was "do the Infinity Stone cover all realities - including the Dark Dimension - or just our reality?"

They do not work in alternate realities, but they do work in seperate dimensions of the same reality.

[Cikomyr]

They do not work in alternate realities, but they do work in seperate dimensions of the same reality.

.... You know, one has to think really hard to have that make sense

[Dragonexx]

Infinity stones only work in the universe they come from, as well as any sub realms (like the dark dimension). So the infinity stones of universe 616 only work in that reality and it's sub-realms. The infinity stones of the MCU only work in the MCU and it's sub realms.

There was a marvel/DC crossover, where Darkseid got the infinity gauntlet and gems, only to find out they didn't work in his universe.

[Tvtyrant]

Colonize Mars. Dump radioactive waste on the moon.

But then, we're never told how far their teleport power goes. They need to be able to picture it, so I assume the interior of the sun is out. If photos work, Mars ahoy.

Or send exactly one person to mars on a space ship, then have them port back and ferry enough people to get some real colonization going.

In any event, magic quickly breaks the setting unless it is just bald people with glowy swords.

[Blackhawk748]

Did this one happen in Dorm's dimension?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111112612/2970429-1042755726-26686.jpg

No im pretty sure that happened in our Dimension. When hes rocking the suit he can leave his realm and go do what he wills, but it seriously hampers his powers. Though going from nigh on infinite powers to half of nigh on infinite powers isn't much of a nerf.

[ben-zayb]

Well, just because they have powers to do X doesn't mean they have to do X, so using it for the greater progress of mankind is out. I think that should be clear the moment it was revealed that they knew what the Avengers were doing, and yet chose not to offer aid.

Sending someone to space, though*? I'm on board with that.

Edit: * for that person to die

[Dilvish]

I'm thinking the timeline confusion in the movie can be explained as side effects of Strange messing with temporal magic. Random magical side effects distorting Strange's history. Yeah, it is silly, and I expect some to not see the humor in my suggestion.

[BWR]

At least it wasn't as lame as the "Wizard Duel" between Gandalf and Saruman.

GAH! Don't remind me.