Orbital Bombardment in D&D with Greater teleport(3.5)

[flappeercraft]

So I just came up with this strategy which lots probably have before, why not grab a rock that my wizard can carry on maximum carrying capacity and drop it from the exosphere. My caster has 43 strength so he could carry up to 9,600lb or 4354.487kg. Since it would reach terminal velocity by the time it gets to the ground how much damage would it cause whether in D&D stats or IRL equivalent to make a rough approximation?

[AmericanCheese]

I can't speak for a mechanical perspective, but physics wise, this is just math, mostly.

42673.9726 Newtons assuming the planet is like Earth and the gravitational acceleration is 9.8 m/s/s

Assuming to you went up to 640km which is where the exosphere starts, then you'd just have 27311342464 Joules of energy, ignoring quite a few things such as atmospheric burning of the rock, and other such problems. You'd probably want a really strong rock.

You'd have weapon that does 2.73113 × 10^9 joules of damage, so around 4075.10332 kilos of TNT.
I'd assume you could do more damage with more basic spells available to a Wizard.

[InvisibleBison]

In D&D: Falling object damage is detailed on p. 303 of the DMG. Unfortunately, it's capped at 20d6 damage. If you ignore that rule (which you really should, because it's not intended to model orbital bombardment), your boulder would do 48d6 damage, plus 1d6 for every ten feet it falls. Assuming a leisurely 100 mile drop, that would be 52,848d6 damage.

In real life: Assuming the rock is a perfect sphere, it would have a terminal velocity of about 95m/s (assuming I did my math right). Thus, it would have a kinetic energy of 1.98 * 10^10 joules, roughly equivalent to 4.7 tons of TNT. Not nuke territory, but enough to squash whatever it hits.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't know about your DM, but if you wanted to pull that in my game you'd have to convince me that you actually have a way to aim that thing at a target that you can't even see from that height.

Not to mention that falling item damage from distance is capped at 20d6, so dropping it from higher than 220ft doesn't actually get you anything in D&D.

[Human Paragon 3]

I once ran a session that functioned around this idea. The setting was a global war where 9th level spells are banned by ancient agreements, so people had to be more creative in how they gained advantages. Artificers in one country's x-wepaons program created an orbital station (built by homunculi) by teleporting raw materials up into orbit. The station used a telekenisis spell to throw a massive carbon rod at a target below, obliterating it.

But before the station was complete it was taken over by malevolent entities from the Far Realm. Turns out outer space has leaks in reality all over the place and it's best to stay away.

The session was a horror-survival dungeon in zero G, fighting against eldtritch horrors and corrupted constructs, plus a shapeshifting aberration that could impersonate the characters perfectly, plant suggestions in their psyche, or become gaseous and move through the station's ventilation system.

[Jormengand]

In 3.5, falling damage is capped at 20d6, which is irritating for those of us who want to drop large objects. However, there's a better way: carry a sackful of 9,600 1-pound rocks, go up at least 1,400 feet up (I suggest flight rather than teleportation), and then pour the rocks onto something you don't like. Each one will deal 20d6 points of damage, which means that if you sprinkle them liberally over a city, you'll instantly kill any creature hit (assuming they're relatively low level) as well as almost certainly breaking through even adamantine with a few hits, and perhaps smashing straight through several inches of wood or stone with each projectile. And you have nearly ten thousand of them.

Consider also using minor creation to fill your sack back up with projectiles (perhaps made of relatively dense wood, so as to be possible with minor creation - this is a lot easier if you're a psion, because for some reason minor creation is a fourth-level spell and a first-level power) and then drop the resulting stuff on the hapless victims until you run out of enemies, spells, or whatever else.

But if 672,000 average damage isn't enough for you anyway, something's probably wrong.

[flappeercraft]

I don't know about your DM, but if you wanted to pull that in my game you'd have to convince me that you actually have a way to aim that thing at a target that you can't even see from that height.

Not to mention that falling item damage from distance is capped at 20d6, so dropping it from higher than 220ft doesn't actually get you anything in D&D.

For aim Greater teleport specifies that if you teleport there is no chance of arriving off target so I could just grab the rock and Greater teleport 1000+ miles in the air exactly above what I want to affect or if you take the rotation of the earth and such things into account I don't think that a Wizard who has 46 Int has much of a problem with calculating where to put the rock in or just Contact another plane and ask where to place it.

[Necroticplague]

Er, is everyone gonna ignore ow plainly this doesn't work?


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space.

So you can't teleport into the air at all, period.

[Einselar]

Er, is everyone gonna ignore ow plainly this doesn't work?



So you can't teleport into the air at all, period.

It's called the rule of fun. If it's entertaining, then we studiously forget that the SRD exists.

[SethoMarkus]

It's called the rule of fun. If it's entertaining, then we studiously forget that the SRD exists.

If it's rule of fun, then why not "good job, rocks fall, your target dies"? I mean, if you enjoy the theoretical application of real-world physics to a D&D world, bully for you! But if you're looking at how this would work by standard D&D rules, it is a rather lame 20d6 and you can't teleport up there... So if you plan on modifying it anyway, why not make it an auto-kill or an arbitrarily massive number?

[icefractal]

So you can't teleport into the air at all, period."An object brought into being or transported to your location by a Conjuration spell". Neither of those describes Teleport. Indeed, you can't summon Elephants in midair to drop on people, but you can Teleport yourself up there, and if you're able to carry a big rock with you, you could then drop that rock.

Also, the rule is up to 20d6 for distance, plus 1d6 per 200 lbs, IIRC. So a heavy enough rock will do a considerable amount of damage. Uncapping distance entirely isn't even accurate when in an atmosphere - terminal velocity is a thing, and dropping a tennis ball from space will not, in fact, destroy a tank when it lands.

[unseenmage]

To take this a bit farther...

One could loop the boulder, or many boulders even, in between a couple of Gates using Gnesis or other gravity control to keep them constantly speeding up.

Could even be assembled in vacuum to keep that pesky terminal velocity at bay.

Later when you want one of your stones just scryteleport to get it where you want it.


IIRC objects don't pass through Gates unattended. If that's the case just resetting trap of Animate Objects so the rocks are creatures when they pass through.
Resetting trap of Dispel should un-animate them for orbital bombardment purposes if dropping minions from space isnt your thing.

Edit: Oh yeah. Obdurium from SBG has the highest Hardness. Riverine is practically made of Force. Either probably survives bombardment esp if you super-buff the Obdurium and alloy it with Oerthblood.

[Telok]

As I recall, the last time this came up in our game we decided on colossal adamantine darts with some magic to make them heavier (denser? I don't recall exactly). I think we were going to dump them by the barrel full off an airship.

[hector212121]

Pff, who needs greater teleport? Just go up there with 10-20 Tree Feather Tokens and activate them one at a time.

[Jormengand]

Pff, who needs greater teleport? Just go up there with 10-20 Tree Feather Tokens and activate them one at a time.

Technically, feather tokens have no maximum range so you can skip the "Go up there" stage. However, this does cost money, and is therefore automatically bad. :smalltongue:

[Endarire]

This thread is made of LOL!

How does orbital bombardment compare to a locate city nuke (Fell Drain version)?

[Jormengand]

This thread is made of LOL!

How does orbital bombardment compare to a locate city nuke (Fell Drain version)?

Either well or badly. Depends who's counting.

LCB, in either form, only affects creatures. Fell drain version is an interesting choice because what was once a land of CR 1/3 humans is now home to an army of wights, which are far tougher and more annoying for the wizard. Normal LCB just kills them outright. Even with a good aim, 9600 rocks probably can't kill all the people who are likely to be there (though depends on population density and how many of the humans are standing directly on top of one another). However, you will also significantly damage any buildings you hit (even adamantine, the archetypal hard material, and obdurium - for when adamantine isn't hard enough - have difficulty stopping your projectiles) which is interesting to say the least.

In essence, it depends what your angle is. What are you trying to achieve?

[Endarire]

I was curious about the best way to destroy a city. This teleport method is less resource-intensive but requires lots more rocks. The Fell Drain locate city nuke kills many creatures, but preserves structures.

[Jormengand]

I was curious about the best way to destroy a city. This teleport method is less resource-intensive but requires lots more rocks. The Fell Drain locate city nuke kills many creatures, but preserves structures.

Pretty much, yes, although I should point out that the fell drain version of LCB only kills level 1 creatures, and also reanimates them as (noticeably stronger) wights, so it's not generally that useful unless you have something interesting you can do with wights.

[Zanos]

Pretty much, yes, although I should point out that the fell drain version of LCB only kills level 1 creatures, and also reanimates them as (noticeably stronger) wights, so it's not generally that useful unless you have something interesting you can do with wights.
Well, the non-level 1 NPCs might take issue with a large majority of the people standing next to them being wights now.


In D&D: Falling object damage is detailed on p. 303 of the DMG. Unfortunately, it's capped at 20d6 damage. If you ignore that rule (which you really should, because it's not intended to model orbital bombardment), your boulder would do 48d6 damage, plus 1d6 for every ten feet it falls. Assuming a leisurely 100 mile drop, that would be 52,848d6 damage.

You really shouldn't ignore that rule, for the very reason that you just described. "I drop a rock on the lich from 2,000 feet high, he takes a million damage and dies instantly, hurr hurr hurr." It's kind of a gamist and arbitrary limit, but I don't mind it as long as the game doesn't become the war of falling objects.

Also, terminal velocity is a thing.

[Inevitability]

I can't speak for a mechanical perspective, but physics wise, this is just math, mostly.

The mathematician in me would like to know what parts of physics aren't just math. :smalltongue:

[AmericanCheese]

The mathematician in me would like to know what parts of physics aren't just math. :smalltongue:

One quarter of AP Physics 1 doesn't qualify me to answer that I don't think :smallwink:

[InvisibleBison]

You really shouldn't ignore that rule, for the very reason that you just described. "I drop a rock on the lich from 2,000 feet high, he takes a million damage and dies instantly, hurr hurr hurr." It's kind of a gamist and arbitrary limit, but I don't mind it as long as the game doesn't become the war of falling objects.

Also, terminal velocity is a thing.

I wasn't talking about ignoring the rule in general; I was talking about ignoring it when conducting orbital bombardment. Looking here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment), a system discussed by the US Air Force could produce impacts equivalent to 7.2 tons of dynamite. According to p. 146 of the DMG, 1 pound of dynamite deals 3d6 damage. Thus, tens of thousands of dice of damage seems reasonable for thousands of pounds of dynamite.

[hector212121]

I think the reasonable way to handle orbital bombardment would be to still cap the damage at 20d6, but give it a burst area--you ARE NOT GOING TO HIT THE LICH DIRECTLY FROM ORBIT, but rather, you smash it into the ground, and chunks of earth and splinters of stone rocket out in all directions, shredding and pounding everything in their path.

[Inevitability]

you ARE NOT GOING TO HIT THE LICH DIRECTLY FROM ORBIT

One could say that.

One could also say 'Hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)'.

[Zanos]

I wasn't talking about ignoring the rule in general; I was talking about ignoring it when conducting orbital bombardment. Looking here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment), a system discussed by the US Air Force could produce impacts equivalent to 7.2 tons of dynamite. According to p. 146 of the DMG, 1 pound of dynamite deals 3d6 damage. Thus, tens of thousands of dice of damage seems reasonable for thousands of pounds of dynamite.
"More damage" isn't really a good way to model tons of environmental destruction. Apocalypse From the Sky only does 10d6 damage, and specifically "levels forests, sends mountains tumbling, and wipes out entire populations of living creatures."

If you're trying to model a big boom, you just want a large area. As hector mentioned, giving the orbital bombardment a huge area and capping the damage and 20d6(the top end for most high end damage magic), is probably fair.