Optimizing your table time, Or: Being mediocre at everything

[Human Paragon 3]

A random thought on approaching the game of D&D and character design:

Most players are concerned with carrying off a character concept and contributing to their party, which usually means doing one thing very well. This is prescribed by the game designers by the creation and codifying of "party roles" such as "tank," "healer," "scout," "ranged striker" or what have you, and in previous editions it was fairly important* to build a character to fulfill its role. If a character failed at its role, then it was considered a failed character design - and hence the tier system from 3.5e and the fail-safe role-based class design in 4e.

In many ways 5e has done away with this necessity. Yes, there are still character roles, and yes the numbers on your character sheet matter, but thanks to bounded accuracy, the game is built on the assumption that every character should be able to attempt anything with some chance to succeed. This means, among other things, skill DCs and armor classes are relatively low.

This makes me wonder about certain assumptions in character design. Even a poorly designed fighter will be able to contribute to combat fairly effectively as long as you don't do something drastic like dump strength and dex.

So what about the idea of a character who is deliberately mediocre but at everything?

Mediocre skills in many different competencies, mediocre ranged and close attacks, mediocre saves, and mediocre abilities (12-14) in everything at first? Throw in mediocre spellcasting for even more versatility.

I believe that such a character would be able to contribute meaningfully in virtually every situation: social, exploration, and combat - and with any monster / npc / tactical situation. This means no sitting back and letting others do the work, and optimizing your time at the table, contributing to every scene.

You would want a class that's especially independent of their ability scores such as Rogue who gets big class-based bonuses to a few skills anyway and a large extra damage source that doesn't care about your ability scores. A mix of Rogue and fighter or barbarian would probably be best, using the standard human for mediocre stat increases or half elf for more skills. Fighter and rogue also give you the most ability boosts, which will allow you to increase your mediocre stats across the board as much as possible. They also have other great abilities such as cunning action and action surge that will enable you to actually do more in every scene.

Yes, you will fail more than your compatriots, but you'll be doing so much more it will even out, and you're optimizing the most important thing: your time at the table.

[Kane0]

My group recently started a game where we started with 10s in all scores (excluding racial modifiers). I'm happy to report that in practice it is perfectly doable (just have to be more careful in most situations), though I don't recommend trying it unless everybody at the table does also.

[mephnick]

I also think over-specialization is a "trap" in this edition. I'd much rather be a fighter with a couple of useful abilities from magic initiate/actor/healer than piling everything into damage with GWM. It may not seem like it in white room forum theories, but as a DM at the table I see a pretty big difference in the ability to contribute to the game in general from players that have spread their abilities around.

[MrStabby]

Not saying you are wrong, but this wouldn't be that fun for me.

I like to have a chance to shine and i don't think this supports that. I also think you underestimate roles.

Skills are simple - want someone to steal something? See who has best slight of hand skill. Want to scare someone? See who has the best intimidate skill and so on. For a lot of skills if you dont have the best scores in the group you don't get to use the skill. Sure some are group skills like stealth, but then your constraint is likely be be the lowest skill level of anyone rolling so being better than that has some diminishing benefits.

Even in combat there are still some roles - that one guy who holds the doorway whilst others get into position/activate the uberdoomdevice or the guy who can be relied upon to banish the support golems whilst you take down the bad guy. What can you do? Maybe a bit of everything but you will never be as good at anything you do as the character that focused on it.

Utility casters might have some luck, but spells that rely on a casting stat suffer if you don't have that stat high. Sure your multiclass wizard/warlock/druid might have a great range of spells but on any given turn, what is the biggest effect their action could have on an encounter?

Now a character is much more than mechanics but mechanics can support a character. "Kind of OK at everything" seems a little mechanically bland to me and less likely to support someone noteworthy.

I do think that there are some abilities that are well worth adding to characters to give them more options, but it has to give something that when you use it is very, very powerful. For example a level of cleric on a fighter can be great - healing word, bless and some class abilities are great uses of your time and can raise your effectiveness (whilst to me anyway helping to also differentiate your character).

[ZX6Rob]

To be honest, this is one of the things I've always liked about the Ranger class. In most editions, it's tough to focus the Ranger on being the very best at anything that isn't ranged damage (and 4e really pushed that angle, though there's nothing really wrong with that at all). That said, though, Rangers always seemed like a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none kind of class. The "switch-hitter", a Ranger build capable of performing well in melee and at range, with spell support for exploration and utility, was a pretty common build (and probably still is, I suppose) in Pathfinder.

That's one way to approach it, anyway -- there are others, like the Valor Bard or a carefully-built Warlock (really!). In any event, I really like characters that may not be the very best at anything, but always have something to contribute to any situation, even if you're not quite as good as the devoted specialist. At the moment, I'm handling that with a UA Ranger (Deep Stalker), with the Blade Mastery feat from UA, and careful distribution of skills and ability scores. I'm really good at ranged damage, decent at melee fighting and defense, and have a handful of useful spells for in and out of combat situations. The only area of the game I'm not able to contribute much in is interaction -- I ended up with Charisma as a dump stat, to no one's surprise, but no one's perfect, I guess.

If you were looking to build this up from scratch, I still think Valor Bard is probably the best way to go, but the Ranger is worth a look, too.

[JAL_1138]

SCAG Half-High-Elf (for free Wizard cantrip at the cost of extra skill profs, needed for even remotely acceptable ranged-at-will damage), Paladin 2 / Valor Bard X, 16 10 14 10 10 16, Urchin or Criminal or Custom background (take Thieves' Tools). Pick up Polearm Master at Bard 4.

You are now okay-ish or better at pretty much everything.

Paladin 2 gets you heavy armor, some healing, a few spells, and Divine Smite; SCAG 1/2-Elf gets you Fey Ancestry, a damage cantrip (that will eventually outdo thrown weapons), and darkvision; Valor Bard gets you full casting, a great spell list (and eventually Magical Secrets), Extra Attack, Expertise (put one in Athletics to be a good grappler), Jack of All Trades (to cover for your lack of skill bonuses and extra proficiencies), Countercharm, Bardic Inspiration, Spell+BA attack (eventually), and Song of Rest.

You can melee pretty well (and nova quite well when you need), you can cast quite well mainly in a support role (and heal reasonably well), you have some okay-ish-but-not-great ranged options, and you're an ok-but-not-great backup skillmonkey thanks to Jack of All Trades.

[Specter]

What you want is an unoptimized Valor Bard.

[Herobizkit]

I'm more or less a graybeard now, and when I played characters back in the day, they were invariably Half-Elf Bards or multi-classed Bard/X. I tended to PREFER a range of 12's to 14's over one 18 or two 16's.

(That Half-Elf and Bard are now seemingly a 5e 'power couple' fills my heart with such joy.)

In 5e, having a bunch of 14's is AWESOME in my book.

[Socratov]

To be honest, this is one of the things I've always liked about the Ranger class. In most editions, it's tough to focus the Ranger on being the very best at anything that isn't ranged damage (and 4e really pushed that angle, though there's nothing really wrong with that at all). That said, though, Rangers always seemed like a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none kind of class. The "switch-hitter", a Ranger build capable of performing well in melee and at range, with spell support for exploration and utility, was a pretty common build (and probably still is, I suppose) in Pathfinder.

That's one way to approach it, anyway -- there are others, like the Valor Bard or a carefully-built Warlock (really!). In any event, I really like characters that may not be the very best at anything, but always have something to contribute to any situation, even if you're not quite as good as the devoted specialist. At the moment, I'm handling that with a UA Ranger (Deep Stalker), with the Blade Mastery feat from UA, and careful distribution of skills and ability scores. I'm really good at ranged damage, decent at melee fighting and defense, and have a handful of useful spells for in and out of combat situations. The only area of the game I'm not able to contribute much in is interaction -- I ended up with Charisma as a dump stat, to no one's surprise, but no one's perfect, I guess.

If you were looking to build this up from scratch, I still think Valor Bard is probably the best way to go, but the Ranger is worth a look, too.
I woudl like to add the bard to that list. It used to be (at least in 3.5 and PF) a jack of all trades, master of none and often could contribute at each time. the fin thing is, in 3.5 you could optimise a bard to do really well on 2 or 3 things. Sure it still wouldn't be the very best at the job (at least not better then a speicalised character in that regard), but it woudl be quite competent.

In 5e things are different now:

I'm more or less a graybeard now, and when I played characters back in the day, they were invariably Half-Elf Bards or multi-classed Bard/X. I tended to PREFER a range of 12's to 14's over one 18 or two 16's.

(That Half-Elf and Bard are now seemingly a 5e 'power couple' fills my heart with such joy.)

In 5e, having a bunch of 14's is AWESOME in my book.
(Emphasis mine) Added to the fact that hey are now a full caster and have their own niche warms the blackened cherry pit at the place of my heart as well. In 3.5 the half elf used to be useless and if you were restricted to core the bard was lackluster as well. However, in this edition stuff has changed big time and for the better for both.

[ZX6Rob]

I woudl like to add the bard to that list. It used to be (at least in 3.5 and PF) a jack of all trades, master of none and often could contribute at each time. the fin thing is, in 3.5 you could optimise a bard to do really well on 2 or 3 things. Sure it still wouldn't be the very best at the job (at least not better then a speicalised character in that regard), but it woudl be quite competent.

I wouldn't disagree in the slightest. Bards in 5e are a fantastic class, and you can do some pretty amazing things with them. The only reason I mentioned Rangers is that, in the discussion of jack-of-all-trades classes, I feel like everyone immediately goes to bards (which is fair -- that is pretty much exactly their design brief), but I wanted to point out that, depending on the types of things you wanted to spread your skills around, Rangers make a good argument as well.

Bards, though... Bards are amazing in 5e. And while I love half-elves as much as the next fella', variant humans with Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate can also be fantastic all-rounder Bards, too. There's some multi-classing you can do to shore up weaknesses, sure, but I hate multi-classing, and the bard chassis gives you so much to work with that you honestly don't have to in a lot of cases.

[JAL_1138]

I wouldn't disagree in the slightest. Bards in 5e are a fantastic class, and you can do some pretty amazing things with them. The only reason I mentioned Rangers is that, in the discussion of jack-of-all-trades classes, I feel like everyone immediately goes to bards (which is fair -- that is pretty much exactly their design brief), but I wanted to point out that, depending on the types of things you wanted to spread your skills around, Rangers make a good argument as well.

Bards, though... Bards are amazing in 5e. And while I love half-elves as much as the next fella', variant humans with Ritual Caster or Magic Initiate can also be fantastic all-rounder Bards, too. There's some multi-classing you can do to shore up weaknesses, sure, but I hate multi-classing, and the bard chassis gives you so much to work with that you honestly don't have to in a lot of cases.

I like having either extra skills (PHB) or a wizard cantrip (SCAG), since either of those increases a bard's "all-rounder" effectiveness considerably, and also darkvision, charm resistance, and magical-sleep immunity from half-elf...but the free Lvl 1 feat that Vhumans get is a truly glorious thing for a bard, especially for a class that otherwise kicks in fairly late (like the Valor subclass particularly), and especially if multiclassing so you can make up for some of the delay.

[PeteNutButter]

There is definitely such a thing as over-specialization. No one wants to be that one-trick pony when that pony just drowned. I've played characters that were really good at one thing, but it runs into the problem of not always being able to do that one thing and also being kind of boring.

There is a middle ground though.

From the Art of War: "For should the enemy strengthen his van, he will weaken his rear; should he strengthen his rear, he will weaken his van; should he strengthen his left, he will weaken his right; should he strengthen his right, he will weaken his left. If he sends reinforcements everywhere, he will everywhere be weak."

I. e. you can't be good at everything, reinforcing your weaknesses, sacrifices your strengths. If you only have +2 in your key stat past level 4 when the rest of the party has +4, they will be hitting noticeably more often with both spells and attacks. Assuming 65% hit chance for them you'll be sitting at 55%, which is 84% of your teammates chance. Assuming they all do ~1d8+mod damage you'll be doing 2 less for 76% of their damage. Together that means your DPR is very roughly 64% of anyone on your team, making you less than 2/3 of a character in combat. Yeah, don't listen to people who say, "what's 5/10%?" 5-10% on the die has large ramifications.

The big downside is what do you gain? There are occasions where everyone in the party has to make a check, like athletics for climbing or swimming, but most checks are "let the best guy do it." So in your efforts to excel at everything you are not actually good at anything. If someone in the party has an 18 in a stat and proficiency in the skill, they are probably better than you at it. Going back to my man, Sun Tzŭ; You can't be strong everywhere.


TLDR: I've found the most success in characters who are specialized, but have other options. Pick 2 stats and con to boost, dump the rest. Pick skills that go with those stats and you add to the party. You'll have the most fun if you aren't a brick out of combat, so probably don't dumb all of your mental stats (Looking at you Barbarian, who wants str, dex, and con).

The biggest thing I've seen add to a character out of combat is ritual caster. You can have so many goodies in that book. Such a great feat for any variant human.

[Toadkiller]

I too love a character that can do several things well enough. The thing is I don't think with 5e that keeps you from doing one thing really well with only modest investment.

My current charter is a high elf cleric 1(knowledge) wizard 10 (divination). She started as a priest, wasn't good at it, dropped out and went to wizard school. With a "spy" background (she's a Harper agent) medium armor, shield and a (usually sheathed) short sword she can be a halfway useful skill monkey with "guidance" is a solid wizard having got up to 20 Int by now. And has demonstrated several times that a 16 Dex is plenty to take out a staggering opponent down the the last couple HP.

That isn't the optimized thing to do- she should cantrip them. But it can be the fun thing to do- it can be cinematic and she's "good enough" to give it a try. Once I even burned a portent cause she was mad and wanted to take out the bad guy. Fun times.

[NecessaryWeevil]

.The big downside is what do you gain? There are occasions where everyone in the party has to make a check, like athletics for climbing or swimming, but most checks are "let the best guy do it." So in your efforts to excel at everything you are not actually good at anything. If someone in the party has an 18 in a stat and proficiency in the skill, they are probably better than you at it. Going back to my man, Sun Tzŭ; You can't be strong everywhere.


Yeah, this is my main concern with the concept. I think a generalist works best when the rest of the party is so specialized (and/or so few) that there are multiple roles left open that need someone to cover adequately.

[JAL_1138]

Yeah, this is my main concern with the concept. I think a generalist works best when the rest of the party is so specialized (and/or so few) that there are multiple roles left open that need someone to cover adequately.

Backup, for one. If you're decent at anything, you make the entire party more flexible and act as a force multiplier to any given specialist, and essentially can skew the party composition toward whatever is more effective in the given circumstances, as necessary. You can, say, lay down another AoE or control spell for a second chance to catch the enemies that made their save against the Wizard's attempt. You can back up the Fighter or the Rogue against single targets. You can help the Cleric heal and buff, letting them keep more slots available for other spells like Spirit Guardians, or run two Concentration buffs in tandem. When the Rogue eventually bungles a skill check, you can take a crack at it too. And if, gods forbid, the party gets split, you have enough flexibility to slot into any combination of characters effectively, or even work alone if pressed.

[DivisibleByZero]

Backup, for one. If you're decent at anything, you make the entire party more flexible and act as a force multiplier to any given specialist, and essentially can skew the party composition toward whatever is more effective in the given circumstances, as necessary. You can, say, lay down another AoE or control spell for a second chance to catch the enemies that made their save against the Wizard's attempt. You can back up the Fighter or the Rogue against single targets. You can help the Cleric heal and buff, letting them keep more slots available for other spells like Spirit Guardians, or run two Concentration buffs in tandem. When the Rogue eventually bungles a skill check, you can take a crack at it too. And if, gods forbid, the party gets split, you have enough flexibility to slot into any combination of characters effectively, or even work alone if pressed.

Yes to all of the above.
And the character I use to do all of that? Dex based Half elven Favored Soul (trickery) Sorcadin.

We got a free feat at level 1, I took war caster right away. You'd have to adjust the cantrips and lvl1 pally spells to account for not raising Cha at 6.

27 pts
Str 13(5) - or 10 if allowed
Dex 15(9)+1=16
Con 13(5)+1= 14
Int 8
Wis 9(1) - or 12 if 10str allowed
Cha 14(7)+2= 16

Half Elf: darkvision, fey ancestry, skill versatility (Stealth and Investigation), languages (common, elvish, +one)
Urban Bounty Hunter: Insight & Perception (instead of Stealth), thieves' tools, one instrument or gaming set, clothes, pouch with 20gp
Free feat: War Caster

1. paladin 1 of Tymora
- 10+con HP each level
- equipment: one martial weapon (rapier or scimitar) & a shield, one simple weapon (dagger), explorer's pack, studded leather armor, holy symbol // thieves' tools, gaming set (dice), clothes, pouch with 20gp
- divine sense, lay on hands
- Proficiencies:
--- all simple and martial weapons, all armor and shields
--- Wisdom and Charisma saves
--- thieves' tools, one gaming set (dice), acrobatics, insight, investigation, perception, persuasion, stealth

2. sorcerer 1 favored soul of Tymora (Trickery)
- d6+con HP each level
- chosen of the gods
- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
- spells: charm person, disguise self // shield, sleep (later swap)

3. p2
- defense style, spellcasting, divine smite
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // shield, sleep

4. s2
- font of magic
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield, sleep

5. s3
- metamagic: quicken & twinned
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield, (sleep swapped for web)
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web

6. s4
- ASI (+2cha = 18)
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion,ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, suggestion, web

7. s5
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, (suggestion swapped for fly), web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fly, haste

8. s6
- extra attack
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste

9. s7
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // wall of fire

10. s8
- ASI (+2dex = 18)
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, fire bolt, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire

11. s9
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire
--- level 5: dominate person, modify memory // hold monster

12. s10
- metamagic: heightened, quicken, twinned
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, cure wounds, divine favor, searing smite, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire
--- level 5: dominate person, modify memory // hold monster, wall of stone

[PeteNutButter]

Backup, for one. If you're decent at anything, you make the entire party more flexible and act as a force multiplier to any given specialist, and essentially can skew the party composition toward whatever is more effective in the given circumstances, as necessary. You can, say, lay down another AoE or control spell for a second chance to catch the enemies that made their save against the Wizard's attempt. You can back up the Fighter or the Rogue against single targets. You can help the Cleric heal and buff, letting them keep more slots available for other spells like Spirit Guardians, or run two Concentration buffs in tandem. When the Rogue eventually bungles a skill check, you can take a crack at it too. And if, gods forbid, the party gets split, you have enough flexibility to slot into any combination of characters effectively, or even work alone if pressed.

See you can do all that and still be specialized in one stat, cha most likely. There is no need to spread yourself thin. You aren't being a generalist so much as just being a bard. None of that justifies intentionally spreading ability scores around.


Yes to all of the above.
And the character I use to do all of that? Dex based Half elven Favored Soul (trickery) Sorcadin.

We got a free feat at level 1, I took war caster right away. You'd have to adjust the cantrips and lvl1 pally spells to account for not raising Cha at 6.

27 pts
Str 13(5) - or 10 if allowed
Dex 15(9)+1=16
Con 13(5)+1= 14
Int 8
Wis 9(1) - or 12 if 10str allowed
Cha 14(7)+2= 16

Half Elf: darkvision, fey ancestry, skill versatility (Stealth and Investigation), languages (common, elvish, +one)
Urban Bounty Hunter: Insight & Perception (instead of Stealth), thieves' tools, one instrument or gaming set, clothes, pouch with 20gp
Free feat: War Caster

1. paladin 1 of Tymora
- 10+con HP each level
- equipment: one martial weapon (rapier or scimitar) & a shield, one simple weapon (dagger), explorer's pack, studded leather armor, holy symbol // thieves' tools, gaming set (dice), clothes, pouch with 20gp
- divine sense, lay on hands
- Proficiencies:
--- all simple and martial weapons, all armor and shields
--- Wisdom and Charisma saves
--- thieves' tools, one gaming set (dice), acrobatics, insight, investigation, perception, persuasion, stealth

2. sorcerer 1 favored soul of Tymora (Trickery)
- d6+con HP each level
- chosen of the gods
- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
- spells: charm person, disguise self // shield, sleep (later swap)

3. p2
- defense style, spellcasting, divine smite
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // shield, sleep

4. s2
- font of magic
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield, sleep

5. s3
- metamagic: quicken & twinned
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield, (sleep swapped for web)
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web

6. s4
- ASI (+2cha = 18)
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion,ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, suggestion, web

7. s5
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, (suggestion swapped for fly), web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fly, haste

8. s6
- extra attack
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste

9. s7
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // wall of fire

10. s8
- ASI (+2dex = 18)
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, fire bolt, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire

11. s9
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire
--- level 5: dominate person, modify memory // hold monster

12. s10
- metamagic: heightened, quicken, twinned
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, cure wounds, divine favor, searing smite, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire
--- level 5: dominate person, modify memory // hold monster, wall of stone

Like above you're just a paladorc. A gish, a versatile character by concept. It's nothing like suggested in the OP, as in a character that spreads his abilities too thinly. You have dex and cha. That's it. Your investigation would be crap compared to say a rogue with some int. Your wisdom skills suffer as well. You are specializing in those two stats, and have some skills in off stats, but they won't be the best in the party. It's exactly what I suggested. Specialized but still versatile without sacrificing in your specialty. You really can't make it MORE of a gish, except maybe going str based for more stats. (As an aside I'm very pro str/anti-dex on paladorcs if point buy. The str requirement is a balanced and [homebrew] removing it is just a buff on what is already the strongest MC in the game.)

Also RAW you can't take warcaster at level 1 if you can't cast spells, a common bane of paladorcs.

[DivisibleByZero]

Like above you're just a paladorc. A gish, a versatile character by concept. It's nothing like suggested in the OP, as in a character that spreads his abilities too thinly.

Also RAW you can't take warcaster at level 1 if you can't cast spells, a common bane of paladorcs.

Yes, but intentionally gimping yourself for basically no reason is just pointless.
Proficiency in a few skills without big attribute bonuses to back them up is exactly what the OP is talking about. They work (and they do), but you aren't the best.
There are very VERY few times that I roll a die and don't have at least a +1 or 2 bonus to the roll. Basically just Int rolls (excepting investigation) which are rare anyway (again, excepting investigation), and wisdom ability checks (excepting perception and insight, which have prof). Every single other roll I ever make has at least a +1 bonus to the roll, usually higher. And the rolls that don't are rolls that I basically never have to roll, so they don't matter.
The rolls that don't have a bonus: Int saves, knowledge checks, animal handling, medicine, survival. Maybe I'm missing one or two, but like I said I never have to roll them so it's kind of irrelevant.
Int saves, rare. Knowledge checks, I have investigation. Animal handling, meh. Medicine, I have cure wounds and lay on hands. Survival, meh.
So it's extremely similar to what the OP suggested in concept, but also actually good/great at a few things as well.

Warcaster is noted in the text as a freebie and described as something that would have to be accounted for and/or removed, so calm down there.

[JAL_1138]

See you can do all that and still be specialized in one stat, cha most likely. There is no need to spread yourself thin. You aren't being a generalist so much as just being a bard. None of that justifies intentionally spreading ability scores around.



Like above you're just a paladorc. A gish, a versatile character by concept. It's nothing like suggested in the OP, as in a character that spreads his abilities too thinly. You have dex and cha. That's it. Your investigation would be crap compared to say a rogue with some int. Your wisdom skills suffer as well. You are specializing in those two stats, and have some skills in off stats, but they won't be the best in the party. It's exactly what I suggested. Specialized but still versatile without sacrificing in your specialty. You really can't make it MORE of a gish, except maybe going str based for more stats. (As an aside I'm very pro str/anti-dex on paladorcs if point buy. The str requirement is a balanced and [homebrew] removing it is just a buff on what is already the strongest MC in the game.)

Also RAW you can't take warcaster at level 1 if you can't cast spells, a common bane of paladorcs.


I think of generalist more in terms of role competencies than stat distribution; that was one criteria out of several in the OP's post.

A character who is "versatile by concept" essentially is a generalist to me, they're synonyms; the versatility and ability to pinch-hit for any role matters more for being a generalist than whether they've gone too low in their attack and casting stats so they can get a boost in others.

A gish isn't necessarily a generalist...or even particularly versatile. You could, for example, build a gish who can do single-target melee damage and AoE spell damage really well, far better than one that's more durable and has more utility spells...but is too much of a glass cannon to ever tank and has nearly no utility outside combat.

You can also build a bard who has specialized in control, buffing, and skillmonkeying to the near-complete exclusion of decent damage, survivability, and healing. That's a much different bard than one that's picked up some worthwhile damage (usually via a dip in Paladin or Warlock), took some healing spells, and isn't as good at skills but has no penalties, a small bonus, and is better able to take damage and land attacks. The first one, the controller/buffer/skillmonkey, is arguably much better at "being a bard," so to speak, than the second one though.

It happens that the best generalists in this edition seem to be CHA gish builds because it's one of the most reliable ways to add damage and survivability without becoming too MAD to even function decently-but-not-spectacularly at any role, much less pinch-hit for most of them fairly competently, but that has more to do with the class options available and the synergies between them.

[PeteNutButter]

I think of generalist more in terms of role competencies than stat distribution; that was one criteria out of several in the OP's post.

A character who is "versatile by concept" essentially is a generalist to me, they're synonyms; the versatility and ability to pinch-hit for any role matters more for being a generalist than whether they've gone too low in their attack and casting stats so they can get a boost in others.

A gish isn't necessarily a generalist...or even particularly versatile. You could, for example, build a gish who can do single-target melee damage and AoE spell damage really well, far better than one that's more durable and has more utility spells...but is too much of a glass cannon to ever tank and has nearly no utility outside combat.

You can also build a bard who has specialized in control, buffing, and skillmonkeying to the near-complete exclusion of decent damage, survivability, and healing. That's a much different bard than one that's picked up some worthwhile damage (usually via a dip in Paladin or Warlock), took some healing spells, and isn't as good at skills but has no penalties, a small bonus, and is better able to take damage and land attacks. The first one, the controller/buffer/skillmonkey, is arguably much better at "being a bard," so to speak, than the second one though.

It happens that the best generalists in this edition seem to be CHA gish builds because it's one of the most reliable ways to add damage and survivability without becoming too MAD to even function decently-but-not-spectacularly at any role, much less pinch-hit for most of them fairly competently, but that has more to do with the class options available and the synergies between them.

We are agreeing here. My point was in countering the OP's suggestion of a character with a bunch of 12-14s. No where am I saying that it is a bad idea to be versatile. It is a good idea to be versatile, but a bad idea to do it via spreading ability scores too thinly.

Also, a gish that can't stand in melee, isn't really a gish. They are a broken character or something else entirely, such as a bladesinger is just a wizard. I mean a gish is versatile by concept because they can either shoot spells or engage in melee. A good gish also often has at least some out of combat versatility because they typically need few or no single target damage spells (they can just swing) freeing up slots for more out of combat things.

The reason paladorc is so popular is precisely because it can perform spectacularly at least one role, while gaining more versatility. It can smite harder and longer than a paladin, and with shield spell tank better. In the case of the 2/x split it can perform almost as well as a full caster with just one level behind on slots and 2 in spell levels, learning fireball at level 7. Paladorcs can scale up cure wounds, even quicken or twin it as needed to fill in as an off healer. They can twin massive buffs, cast encounter breaking spells, etc all while still paladinning. Bottom line is they are exactly what I suggested, pick two stats (str/dex and cha) and win in those areas.

[Douche]

Yes, you will fail more than your compatriots, but you'll be doing so much more it will even out, and you're optimizing the most important thing: your time at the table.

So you want to be a special snowflake & hold your co-players hostage by making them watch while you do everything? Why not just make a bard?