CTP's Guide to the Vigilante

[CockroachTeaParty]

Howdy peeps.

I've been fiddling with this guide since April, and it's finally in a state where I feel comfortable sharing it.

It's hardly the most thorough thing in the world, so I'd love to hear about any actual experiences playing a vigilante, or running a game involving one.

Here's one of them links. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nNO-N52bRt5xWDVvNzYX0BJIExyK3cuWGsi_2zrM5Aw/edit?usp=sharing)

I didn't include a section on traits, because they drive me up a wall, but feel free to chime in.

[N. Jolly]

Awesome! I've enjoyed all of your other guides, and I can't wait to check this one out. I'll be sure to give my thoughts on it once I give it a thorough read!

[Slithery D]

There are some additional archetypes in splatbooks already. Either Inner Sea Intrigue or Spymaster's Handbook.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Horror Adventures has a few. The Experimenter (it's better than the Brute at least... Also, first level social talent is replaced by an ability that lets you chug a mutagen as a full-round action that also lets you shift into your vigilante persona), the Hangman (nooses! Lots of nooses!) and the Serial Killer (shoehorns you into the 'celebrity' path, but get the Slayer's Studied Target ability).

[legomaster00156]

Ah, the Vigilante. Such a glorious mess of archetypes (not that kind) assembled into something resembling a coherent class. At least Dual Identity is kind of cool.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Ah, yes, I forgot about Horror Adventures. I should be able to get my mitts on that at some point. I recall the serial killer archetype at any rate.

I need to do a segment on equipment and magic items, I think. But the fact that each archetype is almost a different class makes it a tall task.

[Slithery D]

There are a small number of vigilante specific disguise items that should have universal applicability.

[Gnaeus]

Just curious. Where would you rate Vigilante on the Tier scale? I can see reasonable arguments for tier 5 (seems to have many trap options, may be unable to do anything well, including fight) or 4 (jack of all trades version, for being a good face, adequate skill monkey, comparable to rogue). I see the 1-6 caster archetypes living in low T3. But while I built one once, I never did a full analysis of the class.

[legomaster00156]

Depends on how well built they are, I think. They're either high 5 or low 4, in my opinion.

[Extra Anchovies]

Your description of Vigilante Specialization in the Chassis & Class Features section says it "provides a combat perk while in vigilante guise"; there is no language that I can find which restricts its benefits to only the Vigilante identity, so AFAIK the Specialization benefits apply in both identities. The same error is found in the Avenger Specialization & Vigilante Talents section ("sporting a full BAB while under vigilante guise").

I recommend pointing out that Inspired Strike gives an Inspiration pool equal to the Vigilante's level, while Investigators get 1/2 level + Int; this means that a Vigilante has a decent chance of having a larger Inspiration pool than a same-leveled Investigator.

Returning Weapon is... eh. The Returning property itself isn't great, because it's not useful if you want to make multiple attacks (rapid shot, iteratives, TWF, haste, etc) or if you want to move after attacking. It's much, much cheaper to get a blinkback belt and be done with it.

Tangent: that's one of my least favorite things about d&d, the assumption by the writers (and thus nigh-requirement on the part of the players) that characters are always attacking with level-appropriate magic weapons. I personally think weapon enhancement bonuses should come from class features (magus arcane pool, etc) or from raw character levels (á la automatic bonus progression), but the hand we've been dealt by the devs is one in which throwing gets the short end of just about every stick there is. :smallannoyed:

Edit: regarding tiers

Vigilante falls somewhere in T3 or T4 depending on archetype and specialization, with the casters obviously running on the high end of that range. All y'all T5 advocates are too harsh.

Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.

Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining.

[Slithery D]

Not done yet, but A++ for the Batman jokes and the Magical Child section.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Not done yet, but A++ for the Batman jokes and the Magical Child section.

SOMEBODY GOT THE BATMAN JOKES! VINDICATION!

I'll re-examine the language on the thing you mentioned, Anchovies.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Oh, I got them. I didn't think they were funny.

[Slithery D]

Oh, I got them. I didn't think they were funny.

The Avenger/Stalker ones were funny. The gun one was hilarious.

[Extra Anchovies]

I did appreciate that Batman was listed as an example Avenger and an example Stalker.

I recommend collecting appropriate Batman images for as many of the archetypes as you can. Examples: Gunmaster (http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/zq7wwkrheqkopcwyoarf.png) (Batman: Year Two), Mounted Fury (http://artoffm.com/art/btdk206.jpg) (The Dark Knight Returns).

[squiggit]

I feel like you kind of overstate dual identity in the opening when you mention campaigns for the vigilante. The class fits really easily in any sort of campaign and diminishing or removing the nuance of dual identity doesn't really hurt them at all.


Also per this FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1h8#v5748eaic9ukr) Vigilantes do have Nobility as a class skill.

[upho]

Returning Weapon is... eh. The Returning property itself isn't great, because it's not useful if you want to make multiple attacks (rapid shot, iteratives, TWF, haste, etc) or if you want to move after attacking. It's much, much cheaper to get a blinkback belt and be done with it.I don't really know enough about the Vigilante yet to have any opinions on or recommendations for the guide, but I happened to see this and I must say I absolutely 100% agree. Returning weapon is a trap.


Tangent: that's one of my least favorite things about d&d, the assumption by the writers (and thus nigh-requirement on the part of the players) that characters are always attacking with level-appropriate magic weapons. I personally think weapon enhancement bonuses should come from class features (magus arcane pool, etc) or from raw character levels (á la automatic bonus progression), but the hand we've been dealt by the devs is one in which throwing gets the short end of just about every stick there is. :smallannoyed:And so much this. (Though throwing shields can be really good with the Shield Champion brawler archetype.)


Edit: regarding tiers

Vigilante falls somewhere in T3 or T4 depending on archetype and specialization, with the casters obviously running on the high end of that range. All y'all T5 advocates are too harsh.Again, I'm not really qualified to speak on the subject, but it appears to me that the Vigilante actually would be averaging more like a low T4 if going by the original Tier specs. However, it also seems to be an unusually campaign dependent class, and the caster builds does raise the upper end quite a bit AFAICT. So maybe from high T5 to low T3 in a more "standard" campaign, and perhaps mid T4 to high T3 in an intrigue-/social-heavy one?